The Gospel was changed by God:

[stunnedbygrace]

If it is done in the name of Jesus and by the Spirit of God, is it there for done by man or God?

You have made a dogmatic statement - that if no man baptizes you in water and says certain words, you cannot receive Gods Spirit. No man baptized me in water, yet I received Gods Spirit one day while driving in my car. There was no water. It wasn't even raining.

 

[The wind]

You have made a dogmatic statement - that if no man baptizes you in water and says certain words, you cannot receive Gods Spirit. No man baptized me in water, yet I received Gods Spirit one day while driving in my car. There was no water. It wasn't even raining.

I received the Spirit by hearing the gospel in the king James bible without being baptized: to understand these things in the scriptures. But I will be baptized eventually by the Lord's anointed. Truthfully baptism was done in the days of the twelve when the people believed on Jesus through them preaching the gospel with the holy Ghost: and this faith came with the fear of Jesus. And so believing they would be baptized into the body of Christ while calling on the name of the Lord(which I have done but with out water). Then being raised up with Christ through water baptism they were to keep the commandments of Christ in the new man. And those who were destined to keep those commandments received the holy Ghost, and those who were not fell away like Judas.

Further more, the water in baptism represents the word of God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I received the Spirit by hearing the gospel in the king James bible without being baptized

Then you need to amend what you said previously. And good morning by the way!

 

[The wind]

Then you need to amend what you said previously. And good morning by the way!

I will be baptized or else I would not have received the Spirit. God knows the end from the beginning.

 

[The wind]

Then you need to amend what you said previously. And good morning by the way!

As I said God knows the end from the beginning:

Acts 11:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.


Which is the reason Peter could not refuse the gentiles from being water baptized.

 

[H. Richard]

Hmm... Well something changed! When Christ came SOMETHING changed! Do we even consider there was a gospel before Christ came? It was foretold, yes... It was said a change was coming. But that is still a change.


Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

You cannot hear the Word without a preacher who is sent by God.

That's not me saying that, it's not James and it isn't even directly Jesus saying it (though he indirectly did)... That comes from the pen of PAUL!

with Grace, he didn't demand a bunch of rules or regulations on the flesh. But he set up a system of how to conduct Church. He st up practices during the service and govt of the Church.

Or am I wrong? Did he not? I have given you the verses! What I got back was a somber tail of how it's such a shame that some don't believe the message of Grace and how some feel we must go to Church... Bla, bla bla...

Yet... You never deal directly with Paul's writing when it comes to going to Church and how it should be run.

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that you are saying a person must go to a church in order to be saved.

As time proceeded the physical church, ran by man, became apostate. Just as Paul said, the churches in Asia had left him and were going after myths.

But God did not leave us in the hands of men. He gave the world His words in a Bible that contains Paul's letters, and thanks to Tyndale it was printed in English. The word of God is used by the Holy Spirit to convict and save a person. If a person's salvation is not completed by the Holy Spirit a person is not saved no matter have many times that person goes to a church.

The problem with men is that they think they can save themselves by their wisdom (interpretations) of scripture. If the word of God is not revealed to a person by the Holy Spirit they will not be saved.

I think, I could be wrong, but it seems that the only thing we disagree with is your idea of church. I don't disagree with the moral teachings of a church but that is not the gospel that saves. As I see it, the man ran churches are to busy teaching morality and do not teach the gospel of grace where Jesus paid for the sins of the world. When most are asked to explain why they think they are save the first words out of their mouth is they go to church.

 

[justbyfaith]

Dunking in water is the best way to represent death, burial, and resurrection with Christ.

That being said, I believe that there is a work of the Holy Spirit that is done in the heart of man that takes place in the moments that he goes under and then comes out of the water, to walk in newness of life.

In Colossians 2:11-15, water baptism is associated with forgiveness.

In Acts 22:16, it is associated with the washing away of sins (while it does not put away the filth of the flesh, 1 Peter 3:21).

 

[friend of]

READ IT, and follow what it says... It says faith comes by hearing. Not reading.

But reading the bible is how I came to faith... so... yeah

 

[FHII]

But reading the bible is how I came to faith... so... yeah

So did you read the part were it says faith comes by hearing, or did you gloss over that?

 

[FHII]

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that you are saying a person must go to a church in order to be saved.

You are wrong because I didn't come up with those verses, Paul did. We aren't dealing with my opinion we are dealing with what God said through Paul, and I can give at least a half dozen more.

The ones I gave talked about "preaching", and the hearing thereof. If you just want to just stick to that, fine... If you can find a Man of God who will come to your house and give you private sermons, we can start with that. But yes, I can give plenty of Pauline scripture that talk about going to church, or at least assembling yourselves.

But God did not leave us in the hands of men.

Well let's think about that.

When God wanted to "save the world", he didn't come as a God, or a spirit; he came as a man.

When Jesus left, he didn't send out 11 spirits and call one spirit in due season, he sent the Apostles.

He didn't send the Holy Spirit for the perfection of the saints, the work of the ministry and for our edification; he sent Apostles, prophets evangelists, pastors and teachers to do that.

Yes, the Holy spirit was with them and was the driving source and source of knowledge. But it came through men.

As time proceeded the physical church, ran by man, became apostate. Just as Paul said, the churches in Asia had left him and were going after myths.

What does that have to do with us? So what if they didn't get it right? How does that effect us? Does it mean we shouldn't stick to what God said?

He gave the world His words in a Bible that contains Paul's letters, and thanks to Tyndale it was printed in English.

Yea, I know... And that's where I got these verses. If the Bible is going to save us and it points to hearing the preaching, we ought to follow the plan.

If the word of God is not revealed to a person by the Holy Spirit they will not be saved.

I agree, but the Holy Spirit came through preaching. Each and every one of the men and women Paul taught was taught by the Holy Spirit... Through Paul. They were taught by the Holy spirit through a man.

Someone earlier suggested that Paul himself was taught mostly by the spirit. That is true, but what about the rest of us? Even the other 11 Apostles went to Church for 3 1/2 years and learned from a man.

And Richard, you still haven't directly addressed the verses I gave. If they are incorrect, why did Paul write them?

I think, I could be wrong, but it seems that the only thing we disagree with is your idea of church.

Absolutely, and I have said many times I stand with you on the other things. I also sympathize with the notion that there are man run Churches. Church should be run by God, and yes, the Bible gives how to do it. Paul gives great detail. I don't understand why you as an astute student of Paul fails to see that.

As I mentioned earlier, just because others do it wrong doesn't mean we shouldn't do it right.

Many frustrate Grace with works... Should we give up on Grace?

 

[friend of]

So did you read the part were it says faith comes by hearing, or did you gloss over that?

If a person reads words, and they understand those words, they are "hearing" it's just not audible hearing. Comprehension is what matters.

 

[FHII]

If a person reads words, and they understand those words, they are "hearing" it's just not audible hearing. Comprehension is what matters.

No, that's reading. Furthermore the Bible says it must come by a preacher. Not reading.

Comprehension is what matters... Ok. So have you comprehended correctly? Remember the Etheopian Eunuch. He was reading, and clearly was an educated man to actually be reading. When Philip asked him if he understood, what was his response? Acts 8:31.

Friend of: I understand what you are saying, and understand any reluctance you may have. However, Romans 10 says you need a preacher that must be sent by God (not all preachers are, you have to find one that is).

Let me put forth one more argument forth: if I read all the proper medical textbooks necessary for brain surgery yet never attend medical school, would you let me perform brain surgery on you?

I don't think you would, but why do we believe we can understand the Bible without a man sent by God, especially when the very Bible you say gives you understanding says that's the way it is done?

 

[Enoch111]

No, that's reading. Furthermore the Bible says it must come by a preacher. Not reading.

So those who are physically deaf are shut out of the Kingdom of God? What utter nonsense.

And let's face it. The majority of preachers are NOT preaching the full and true Gospel today.

 

[FHII]

And let's face it. The majority of preachers are NOT preaching the full and true Gospel today.

I absolutely agree. Always have and mentioned it at least a few times. But again, if God said we need a preacher, does the fact that the majority of preachers aren't preaching the truth excuse us from doing what God said? I think not!

You you believe we can get the full and true gospel on our own? If the majority of trained preachers can't, why what makes you believe you can on your own?

Furthermore, you said the majority aren't preaching the full and true gospel. That tells me that the minority are... So are you following one of them? If not, why not, if God said to do so?

So those who are physically deaf are shut out of the Kingdom of God? What utter nonsense

We had a woman who could not speak English, but we found a way... Ok, she wasn't deaf, but if she was, a way would be found.

Jesus opened deaf ears so perhaps if one truly sought to hear, it would be granted.

 

[friend of]

Remember the Etheopian Eunuch

This particular individual cannot represent all of humanity.

 

[FollowHim]

The failure or refusal to discern the Pauline Gospel as a separate and new revelation, and not a “development from Judaism,” accounts for two-thirds of the confusion in many people’s minds today as regards just what the Gospel is.

Paul’s Gospel will suffer no admixture with works on the one hand or religious pretensions and performances on the other. It is simple and clear as the sunlight from heaven.

The end of man is where God begins (Romans 3), at what might be called the opening of the Pauline Revelation. Most unsaved people today believe in their hearts that the reason they are not saved is because of something they have not yet done, some step that remains for them to take before God will accept them. But this is absolutely untrue.

When Christ said “It is finished,” He meant that He had, then and there, paid the debt for the whole human race. “He gave Himself a ransom for all” (1 Timothy 2:6).

Now Paul, in his wonderful revelation declares, that God hath “reconciled the world unto Himself; that God was in Christ (at the cross) reconciling the world unto Himself, (II Corinthians 5:19). ---- Men do not know this, but they conceive that something stands between them and God, before God will accept, or forgive, them.

If you tell a man that God is demanding no good works of him whatsoever, no religious observances or church ordinances, that God is not asking him to undertake any duties at all, but that God invites him to believe a glad message that his sins have already been dealt with at the cross, and that God expects him to believe this good news and be exceedingly happy about it - if you tell an unsaved man such a story as this, he is astonished and overwhelmed - yet this is the Gospel of Grace!

Note: Taken from the “Bible Student’s Notebook” a weekly Bible study publication.
www.BibleStudentsNotebook.com

the Gospel of Grace is the gospel of the law, of the prophets, of the Apostles, of Jesus, of the Father.
But this is a gospel of grace to those transformed in their hearts, cleansed, purified and made whole in Christ.
They are not under the law, because they live the life of love. They are not bound by condemnation, because nothing they do deserves condemnation. They are pure and Holy, abiding in the promises which God has lavished on those who listen and follow Him.

Now some preach a gospel of grace which says as sinners, without transformation and change or even sorrow or repentance and turning from evil deeds to good deeds, God will admit them into the heavenlies, into the new Jerusalem, and count them as cleansed purified people, even though they are not and desire not to follow or obey the Fathers will and ways. This is more like a lottery win, where money is given to miss-use as you like, and the way of the world is as valid as the ways of God. But this denies both what is evil behaviour and what is good loving behaviour, and the essential failure in man through His failure to not commune or know the living God.

What has changed through the cross, which was not possible before was the Holy Temple of God is now in the hearts of His people, and not in a temple made of stone. And the communion with God is now with the indwelling Holy Spirit, which only John the Baptist had from within the womb.

Now I imagine some think as is described above, that God accepting sinners into the Kingdom is a reason for great rejoicing. But those in the Kingdom would say this is a denial of Gods nature and heart, the power of love and free will. A guilty man is guilty of murder when they take anothers life. It is a historical reality, a life changing event for which punishment and restitution must be paid. Yet to some this is fine, and is already forgiven and ignored. In such an insane place, the world can be as sinful as it likes as it is all ignored as has no consequences, except it destroys and kills everything it touches, and brings to nothing love in action. So how could the Kingdom of heaven exist if death reigns rules and destroys it. But such are the insights of unbelievers, that they desire acceptance without repentance, wiping away of tears without stopping the behaviour that causes the pain and tears. It is simply not possible or will ever come about.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

FHll said: No God isn't limited... But he has a plan. It's a foolish plan, but it is his way of doing it

I hope you are not actually saying and believing that God thinks his plan is foolish, because that's not true. Those who are God's true servants who live by faith, don't believe his plan to be foolish either. Now those who are without Faith, they will believe what you are telling them is foolish.

 

[brakelite]

Here's Paul's gospel...
KJV Romans 1
Not Ashamed of the Gospel
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Here's the gospel as preached to Adam...
KJV Genesis 3
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

They have much in common. First, its God alone who affects salvation.
Second, no work of man is hinted at or suggested.
Third, both require faith to become experience.
Both gospels are identical in that they are predicated on God's grace and mercy.
Both gospels are identical in that they both require the power of God to be bestowed upon the believer in order that the believer can obey God and thus meet the conditions necessary to receive the promise.

No one will be in heaven or receive any citizenship in God's kingdom there or on earth, because they obeyed the law. Everyone in the kingdom will be there because they
A. Believed God.
B. Acted faithfully in accordance to that belief.

 

[Davy]

The failure or refusal to discern the Pauline Gospel as a separate and new revelation, and not a “development from Judaism,” accounts for two-thirds of the confusion in many people’s minds today as regards just what the Gospel is.
....

That is pretty much blasphemy against The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit regarding The One Gospel of Jesus Christ. Apostle Paul did not have a different Gospel than what Christ's other Apostles had. The difference was only in Jesus choosing Paul for a different commission in the one Gospel of Jesus Christ. You well know this, but you keep fighting against it.

 

[H. Richard]

the Gospel of Grace is the gospel of the law, of the prophets, of the Apostles, of Jesus, of the Father.
But this is a gospel of grace to those transformed in their hearts, cleansed, purified and made whole in Christ.
They are not under the law, because they live the life of love. They are not bound by condemnation, because nothing they do deserves condemnation. They are pure and Holy, abiding in the promises which God has lavished on those who listen and follow Him.

Now some preach a gospel of grace which says as sinners, without transformation and change or even sorrow or repentance and turning from evil deeds to good deeds, God will admit them into the heavenlies, into the new Jerusalem, and count them as cleansed purified people, even though they are not and desire not to follow or obey the Fathers will and ways. This is more like a lottery win, where money is given to miss-use as you like, and the way of the world is as valid as the ways of God. But this denies both what is evil behaviour and what is good loving behaviour, and the essential failure in man through His failure to not commune or know the living God.

What has changed through the cross, which was not possible before was the Holy Temple of God is now in the hearts of His people, and not in a temple made of stone. And the communion with God is now with the indwelling Holy Spirit, which only John the Baptist had from within the womb.

Now I imagine some think as is described above, that God accepting sinners into the Kingdom is a reason for great rejoicing. But those in the Kingdom would say this is a denial of Gods nature and heart, the power of love and free will. A guilty man is guilty of murder when they take anothers life. It is a historical reality, a life changing event for which punishment and restitution must be paid. Yet to some this is fine, and is already forgiven and ignored. In such an insane place, the world can be as sinful as it likes as it is all ignored as has no consequences, except it destroys and kills everything it touches, and brings to nothing love in action. So how could the Kingdom of heaven exist if death reigns rules and destroys it. But such are the insights of unbelievers, that they desire acceptance without repentance, wiping away of tears without stopping the behaviour that causes the pain and tears. It is simply not possible or will ever come about.

You are forgetting that the sins of men are already forgiven by God. The sinful flesh does not go into heaven. Only the born again spirit does.