THE GOSPEL

[Wick Stick]

Yes Paul says we receive the atonement
But this verse says he was our substitute as well........[2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV] "For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

That verse doesn't mean quite what you're saying.

 

[JesusFan]

It was much more than paying the full penalty for our sin. What about the sin in us. What about the ability to sin. Did Jesus do anything about those? 1 John 3:4-5 tells us. Most churches teach that the blood of Jesus just covers our sin out of the Father's sight, but we still commit them. Something like Harry Potter's invisibility cloak. Do you believe that?


Why does this just talk about our past sins, and not our present and future sins? What does Acts 20:24 mean by the gospel of grace.


This is true, but do you really know what it means to be made the righteousness of God in Him?



I would just like to add to your list, the number one verse on the gospel. Romans 1:16-17. The gospel is the POWER OF GOD.

We are not saved in a sinless perfection state

 

[Doug]

That verse doesn't mean quite what you're saying.

Please tell me what is it saying

 

[Wick Stick]

Please tell me what is it saying

It says that our sins were put on Him. There's no idea of substitution there.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Ah... substitutionary atonement. That idea is missing from the New Testament. It was created by St. Anselm of Canterbury in the 10th century AD.

The Biblical idea of atonement is NOT a substitution, but rather a covering. Jesus' blood covers our sins.

You won't find that the blood of Jesus COVERS our sins in the New Covenant. It was the blood of bulls and goats that merely "covered" our sins in the Old Covenant.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

We are not saved in a sinless perfection state

Sorry to get back to you so late. I took a nap.

Why did you say "sinless perfection"? Is it because I asked him about 1 John 3:9? Do you have one of those modern versions from the corrupted Alexandrian codices translated by Westcott and Hort, two demon-possessed spiritualists who were fans of Darwin? Does your Bible add the word "practice" there with regards to sin, when it was only righteousness that we are to practice?

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

 

[Wick Stick]

You won't find that the blood of Jesus COVERS our sins in the New Covenant. It was the blood of bulls and goats that merely "covered" our sins in the Old Covenant.

Challenge accepted.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Wick Stick may your patience with those who contradict themselves be rewarded.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Challenge accepted.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

WS, Where do you find that Jesus's blood COVERS our sin in that passage. We aren't discussing the blood, but what it does! It is not merely covering our sin, but it CLEANSES IT AWAY! Therefore, the blood of bulls and goats covered our sin that was still there, but the blood of Jesus TAKES IT AWAY permanently! 1 John 3:5 Ask yourself where in us does Jesus take away our (past 2 Pt. 1:9) sin?

In other words:

COVERS vs. TAKES AWAY

This was my post that you said, "challenge accepted."

Me: "You won't find that the blood of Jesus COVERS our sins in the New Covenant. It was the blood of bulls and goats that merely "covered" our sins in the Old Covenant."

Note, I said "merely"

 

[Hiddenthings]

WS, Where do you find that Jesus's blood COVERS our sin in that passage. We aren't discussing the blood, but what it does! It is not merely covering our sin, but it CLEANSES IT AWAY! Therefore, the blood of bulls and goats covered our sin that was still there, but the blood of Jesus TAKES IT AWAY permanently! 1 John 3:5 Ask yourself where in us does Jesus take away our (past 2 Pt. 1:9) sin?

In other words:

COVERS vs. TAKES AWAY

This was my post that you said, "challenge accepted."

Me: "You won't find that the blood of Jesus COVERS our sins in the New Covenant. It was the blood of bulls and goats that merely "covered" our sins in the Old Covenant."

Note, I said "merely"

Study the Hebrew teaching of covering (kaphar) which is continued from the OT into the NT - you might have heard the expression "sin covering" name.

James uses the idea in 5:20 so in a way you both are right!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Study the Hebrew teaching of covering (kaphar) which is continued from the OT into the NT - you might have heard the expression "sin covering" name.

James uses the idea in 5:20 so in a way you both are right!

No. James 5:20 is talking about a mere man covering a multitude of sins. Jesus is the only one Who can take sin away, cleansing us from ALL unrighteousness. Do you believe that??? Guess where Jesus takes sin away FROM. That fact is not taught in today's church, nor after the 1st century. It is WHY we MUST be born again.

 

[Wick Stick]

WS, Where do you find that Jesus's blood COVERS our sin in that passage. We aren't discussing the blood, but what it does! It is not merely covering our sin, but it CLEANSES IT AWAY! Therefore, the blood of bulls and goats covered our sin that was still there, but the blood of Jesus TAKES IT AWAY permanently! 1 John 3:5 Ask yourself where in us does Jesus take away our (past 2 Pt. 1:9) sin?

In other words:

COVERS vs. TAKES AWAY

This was my post that you said, "challenge accepted."

Me: "You won't find that the blood of Jesus COVERS our sins in the New Covenant. It was the blood of bulls and goats that merely "covered" our sins in the Old Covenant."

Note, I said "merely"

I see the point you're driving at, and it's a good one.

The "covers" there is in the word atonement. Atonement is a covering.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I see the point you're driving at, and it's a good one.

The "covers" there is in the word atonement. Atonement is a covering.

Answer my question. Where in us does Jesus TAKE AWAY our past sins? How is it permanent, and why in 1 John 3:9 are we unable to commit sin (not practice sin from the corrupt Alexandrian codices or added by the demon worshiping Westcott and Hort). A hint is 1 John 3:4 and the last chapter of that epistle.

I tried to find "atonement" or "atoning" in the New Testament and can't find the word. So what are you reading that applies to us now and not the Old Covenant that could not take away sin, just cover it. It is reconciliation in Romans 5:9-11 that is better than atonement.

 

[Wick Stick]

Answer my question.

I did.

Where in us does Jesus TAKE AWAY our past sins? How is it permanent, and why in 1 John 3:9 are we unable to commit sin (not practice sin from the corrupt Alexandrian codices or added by the demon worshiping Westcott and Hort). A hint is 1 John 3:4 and the last chapter of that epistle.

Huh? That didn't... English.

I tried to find "atonement" or "atoning" in the New Testament and can't find the word. So what are you reading that applies to us now and not the Old Covenant that could not take away sin, just cover it.

Scroll up. It's in my previous post.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I did.

Huh? That didn't... English.

Scroll up. It's in my previous post.

My Bible says reconciliation, not atonement.

I meant, where in us (our body) does Jesus TAKE AWAY our past sins? 1 Thes. 5:23. The way some people use 1 John 1:9 is as a get out of jail free verse. It actually means how to become a Christian which is once, not to keep on sinning, then repenting and repeating the cycle over and over. Those who still have the ability to keep sinning are not saved, 1 John 3:6. Why? 1 John 1:9 is the same as Acts 2:38 - Repent, ....and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit only comes into a clean vessel.

 

[Wick Stick]

My Bible says reconciliation, not atonement.

I used the KJV :shrug:

I meant, where in us (our body) does Jesus TAKE AWAY our past sins? 1 Thes. 5:23.

Still having a hard time understanding your question. Sins are not tangible, physical things that are within our bodies.

The Bible speaks in several places about some books that record all the sins of humanity (verses below), which are used when God judges mankind. If this is literal, that is WHERE the sins are removed from. The record of our wrongdoing is BLOTTED OUT, or WASHED AWAY.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Still having a hard time understanding your question. Sins are not tangible, physical things that are within our bodies.

Where is the source of our sin? What needs to be born again? I'm not talking about outside records, but us.

 

[Hiddenthings]

No. James 5:20 is talking about a mere man covering a multitude of sins. Jesus is the only one Who can take sin away, cleansing us from ALL unrighteousness.

No one is arguing this 1st.

Out of interest can you explain how someone can cover another's sins?

 

[Hiddenthings]

I used the KJV :shrug:

Still having a hard time understanding your question. Sins are not tangible, physical things that are within our bodies.

This is true - there was a time when people believed the flesh had actual sin in it so if you cut off your arm you were less sinful.

Rather comical what the mind is capable of believing.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No one is arguing this 1st.

Out of interest can you explain how someone can cover another's sins?

By confronting them or coming along side of them to repent. They are instrumental in the sinner's confession and forgiveness. We are not to judge the world, but we ARE to judge those in the church to repent.