The Great Crowd

[doxley]

Hello, first to introduce myself, I’m new here and am looking for a little help. I have studied with the Jehovah’s Witnesses several times now and am once again at a standstill with them. Though there are some doctrines I can agree with, there are a few that I don’t quite get and am wary of moving forward. I would like to address them on this board to see if I can glean any enlightenment from anyone at all, I don’t reject any Christian denomination. I study a lot and am not clueless enough to just follow along when something doesn’t look right.

First ‘The Great Crowd’, who are supposedly everyone other than the 144,000. They have an earthly hope of a paradise earth that will be ruled over by Jesus and the 144,000 during the 1000 year millennium (I believe they call this pre-millennialism).

I am not opposed to pre-millennialism, I think there is evidence for it in the scriptures, the Great Crowd however, I don’t see Jesus differentiating between believers. He talks about one hope only as far as I can see.

However, when you point out the scriptures about his believers going to heaven, I have been told that those portions of scripture are only pertinent towards the 144,000 and the ‘great crowd’ have no part in that. So they are really dissecting believers of Jesus (and the New Testament) into two classes, those for whom most of the new testament was written - the 144,000, and the rest, who only have an earthly hope after Armageddon and much of the New Testament isn’t about them. They believe their mediator is the Faithful and Discreet Slave (the Society/Watchtower/Governing Body) and not Jesus.

I see little evidence that ‘The Good News’ contained two separate hopes, Jesus didn’t talk about two sets of believers, only one. What do you think?

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 23:13
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

 

[Keiw]

Hello, first to introduce myself, I’m new here and am looking for a little help. I have studied with the Jehovah’s Witnesses several times now and am once again at a standstill with them. Though there are some doctrines I can agree with, there are a few that I don’t quite get and am wary of moving forward. I would like to address them on this board to see if I can glean any enlightenment from anyone at all, I don’t reject any Christian denomination. I study a lot and am not clueless enough to just follow along when something doesn’t look right.

First ‘The Great Crowd’, who are supposedly everyone other than the 144,000. They have an earthly hope of a paradise earth that will be ruled over by Jesus and the 144,000 during the 1000 year millennium (I believe they call this pre-millennialism).

I am not opposed to pre-millennialism, I think there is evidence for it in the scriptures, the Great Crowd however, I don’t see Jesus differentiating between believers. He talks about one hope only as far as I can see.

However, when you point out the scriptures about his believers going to heaven, I have been told that those portions of scripture are only pertinent towards the 144,000 and the ‘great crowd’ have no part in that. So they are really dissecting believers of Jesus (and the New Testament) into two classes, those for whom most of the new testament was written - the 144,000, and the rest, who only have an earthly hope after Armageddon and much of the New Testament isn’t about them. They believe their mediator is the Faithful and Discreet Slave (the Society/Watchtower/Governing Body) and not Jesus.

I see little evidence that ‘The Good News’ contained two separate hopes, Jesus didn’t talk about two sets of believers, only one. What do you think?

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matthew 23:13

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”


Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

The little flock( Luke 12:32) = 144,000 bought from the earth-Rev 14:3--To rule as kings and priests alongside Jesus on thrones-Rev 1:6. Rev 20:4-6 this is the bride of Christ.--The other sheep= the great crowd which no man can number-Rev 7:9--will stand before the throne=on earth-Prov 2:21-22-Matt 24:22- Jesus promised the earth to someone-Matt 5:5--since the great crowd cannot be numbered and there is a number at Rev 14:3--proves the great crowd are the ones promised earth. And as well Rev 20:7-9 assures the attack of Gog of Magog occurs on the earth to the holy ones of God-proving all do not go to heaven. The JW,s are 100% correct on this matter.

 

[doxley]

[QUOTE=" The JW,s are 100% correct on this matter.[/QUOTE]

And do you really think that Jesus is not the mediator for millions of people and the faithful and discreet slave is instead? And do you really think a great portion of new testament scripture isn’t speaking to everyone, only the 144,000?

 

[Enoch111]

I see little evidence that ‘The Good News’ contained two separate hopes, Jesus didn’t talk about two sets of believers, only one. What do you think?

You are right doxley. So the first thing to do is run as far away as possible from the JWs and do not go back.

 

[doxley]

You are right doxley. So the first thing to do is run as far away as possible from the JWs and do not go back.

But i need to be sure of what is in the bible. There are doctrines in many denominations that I don't agree with also, so I have to do this methodically and study it through to the end with an open heart and mind, giving everything a chance. I would like the JW's to give me scriptural proof Jesus wasn't talking to the great crowd.

I haven't found a church I would feel comfortable joining right now so have to do this alone. Thanks for your comment though and hello

 

[Cassandra]

[QUOTE=" The JW,s are 100% correct on this matter.

And do you really think that Jesus is not the mediator for millions of people and the faithful and discreet slave is instead? And do you really think a great portion of new testament scripture isn’t speaking to everyone, only the 144,000?[/QUOTE]

I think the witnesses are the only ones who believe that.I think also that they restrict who takes Communion too. It is reserved for the 144,000.
Most every other church allows all to take communion.

Jesus is Mediator for everyone. Do they teach He isn't?

Also, I think Jesus takes all of the righteous with Him to heaven. 1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That is for everyone.
144,000 have a special place, walking with Christ "following the Lamb, wherever He goes", but that does not mean that Heaven belongs only to them.
I also, and forgive me, cringe at the term "discreet slave". A slave is a slave because he has to be.

 

[doxley]

And do you really think that Jesus is not the mediator for millions of people and the faithful and discreet slave is instead? And do you really think a great portion of new testament scripture isn’t speaking to everyone, only the 144,000?

I think the witnesses are the only ones who believe that.I think also that they restrict who takes Communion too. It is reserved for the 144,000.
Most every other church allows all to take communion.

Jesus is Mediator for everyone. Do they teach He isn't?

Yes they think the great crowd are mediated by the FDS and only the 144,00 are mediated by Jesus. Their communion consists of only the 144,000 drinking the wine, everyone else just passes it along without drinking.

 

[Cassandra]

What is FDS?
And when you speak of mediation, are you talking about mediation for sin?

 

[doxley]

What is FDS?
And when you speak of mediation, are you talking about mediation for sin?

I believe so, I would like a Jehovah's Witness to come on here and explain it more as I am still only studying. The FDS is the Faithful and Discreet Slave which they believe they were appointed to by Jesus in 1919. They believe salvation is only available through this 'Slave' as they are the only true church that Jesus and Jehovah recognize on earth now.

If I've got this wrong I would love a JW to come here and correct me.

 

[Enoch111]

First ‘The Great Crowd’, who are supposedly everyone other than the 144,000. They have an earthly hope of a paradise earth that will be ruled over by Jesus and the 144,000 during the 1000 year millennium

Just a couple of verses in Revelation 7 and 14 will show you how utterly foolish the JWs are in sending "the great crowd" to a paradise on earth, when they are actually in Heaven before the throne of God.

"GREAT CROWD" (COUNTLESS MULTITUDE) IN HEAVEN
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. (Rev 7:9,10)

144,000 REDEMEED ISRAELITES IN HEAVEN
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads... And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. (Rev 14:1,3)

This idea of 144,000 Gentile Jehovah's Witnesses in Heaven is total nonsense. Therefore you should pack up and say goodbye to the deceivers of the Watchtower Society. No one who rejects the deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity will be in Heaven.

 

[doxley]

Thank you Enoch. I'm obviously on the right path then. It looks to me like they are in heaven too. I wanted to see if they could show me why I need the organisation to mediate for me. So they are basically cutting people off from Jesus.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I believe so, I would like a Jehovah's Witness to come on here and explain it more as I am still only studying. The FDS is the Faithful and Discreet Slave which they believe they were appointed to by Jesus in 1919. They believe salvation is only available through this 'Slave' as they are the only true church that Jesus and Jehovah recognize on earth now.

If I've got this wrong I would love a JW to come here and correct me.

Hi doxley, I hope I can help with this one....
The FDS teach that salvation is not through anyone but Jesus Christ.

They GB are guides and shepherds and fellow slaves of their brothers. They are there to "feed" Jesus household so that all receive the same spiritual food at the same time....they receive what they need, when they need it. (Matthew 24:45)
Jesus is the only mediator between us and God.

I do not hold that just wearing a label makes one a Witness of Jehovah.....all must have a love for Jehovah, his Christ and one another, and they must follow through on the teachings of Jesus, which does not include the trinity, immortality of the soul or hellfire, which you probably already know.
It requires that we all be preachers of the Kingdom, which JW's have been doing continuously for over 100 years. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

The Revelation speaks of two groups seen at the end of the system of things...one finite group is seen on heavenly Mt Zion with God and the Lamb, (the 144,000 who make up spiritual Israel) and another unnumbered group are identified by Jesus as those who "come out of the great tribulation" which takes place on earth. (Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14)

Revelation 14:1-5 says that the chosen ones are bought from among mankind as "firstfruits", which to an agricultural community meant that a second crop was expected. So the anointed are chosen and resurrected "first".
Those who come through the great tribulation on earth, form the nucleus of the "new earth" foretold by Isaiah, Peter and John. The "new heavens" are the new ruling arrangement which will rule mankind from heaven. (2 Peter 3:13)

There are two groups because the kingdom is made up of "kings and priests" chosen by God to rule earthly subjects. (Revelation 20:6; Revelation 21:2-4) With the rule of God's Kingdom, His first purpose for the earth and mankind upon it will be fulfilled....to have a race of perfect humans living in paradise conditions forever on this lovingly prepared planet.

A Kingdom is a "king" and his "dom"ain. The Bible says that the "chosen ones" often called "the elect" or "anointed ones" have a specific role as 'rulers and priests', and must be "born again" so that they can take up residence in heaven to fulfill their role assigned to them by God.

The Christian scriptures were written for the anointed who will rule in heaven with Jesus. This was the first group chosen and all reference to going to heaven pertains only to them because all who wrote scripture were of that calling. (Hebrews 3:1).

Revelation 21:2-4 sees the rulership of Christ and his "bride" bringing their rulership to mankind on earth.
Because the chosen ones will be priests who will intercede on our behalf, the ones over whom they rule must still be in imperfect flesh....there are no sinners in heaven, and kings need subjects to rule over. It just makes perfect sense to me.

Hope that helps....

 

[doxley]

The Christian scriptures were written for the anointed who will rule in heaven with Jesus. This was the first group chosen and all reference to going to heaven pertains only to them because all who wrote scripture were of that calling. (Hebrews 3:1).

Hope that helps....

Thank you Aunty Jane for your answer. My problem is with the quote above. I don't see any scriptural evidence that Jesus was only calling a few select people to his priesthood, who decided he was?

Why can't this be a period of sorting for the priesthood for us all? I do believe in pre-millennialism, I have no problem with that, there can still be people left on earth after Armageddon, there is nothing to say in scripture that there isn't.

As for the number 144,000, you can't make that a literal number and then make the rest of the sentence allegorical;

Revelation 7:4, “And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel”

Revelation 14:3-4, “The hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth… These are they which were not defiled with women; for they were virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth”

Surely we can't just swap or change between the two in mid-sentence or the scriptures would be subject to all sorts of weird and wonderful sayings?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Hello, first to introduce myself, I’m new here and am looking for a little help. I have studied with the Jehovah’s Witnesses several times now and am once again at a standstill with them. Though there are some doctrines I can agree with, there are a few that I don’t quite get and am wary of moving forward. I would like to address them on this board to see if I can glean any enlightenment from anyone at all, I don’t reject any Christian denomination. I study a lot and am not clueless enough to just follow along when something doesn’t look right.

First ‘The Great Crowd’, who are supposedly everyone other than the 144,000. They have an earthly hope of a paradise earth that will be ruled over by Jesus and the 144,000 during the 1000 year millennium (I believe they call this pre-millennialism).

I am not opposed to pre-millennialism, I think there is evidence for it in the scriptures, the Great Crowd however, I don’t see Jesus differentiating between believers. He talks about one hope only as far as I can see.

However, when you point out the scriptures about his believers going to heaven, I have been told that those portions of scripture are only pertinent towards the 144,000 and the ‘great crowd’ have no part in that. So they are really dissecting believers of Jesus (and the New Testament) into two classes, those for whom most of the new testament was written - the 144,000, and the rest, who only have an earthly hope after Armageddon and much of the New Testament isn’t about them. They believe their mediator is the Faithful and Discreet Slave (the Society/Watchtower/Governing Body) and not Jesus.

I see little evidence that ‘The Good News’ contained two separate hopes, Jesus didn’t talk about two sets of believers, only one. What do you think?

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 23:13
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Thanks Doxley, I am assuming you are a male from your handle, please let me know if I am in error. Welcome to the forum sir. Thanks for asking that question, and if you would like I will send you my email, and will be glad to address your questions.

Are you familiar with Jesus words at Jn 10:16. Those sheep there which he refers to in two groups are in fact sheep, correct? He was talking about the little flock as being the sheep, and contrasted it with another fold of sheep, yet they were all under one shepherd. Many will say this represents Israel and Gentile Christians, which if one wants to label them that way they are not entirely in error. The little flock is called the Israel of God Gal 6:16, and you are familiar with the great crowd that is innumerable. We believe those other sheep which is not of the fold of those chosen to leave the earth, will not leave the earth. Are you familiar with Jesus' words at Mat 5:5? Those are sheep correct? He was referring to Ps 37:11, and take not of 29 as well.

No doubt you are familiar with the Lord's prayer which states the Kingdom will come, and Gods' will will be done on earth. Likely you realize that satan has been cast to the earth, and will soon be removed from the earth for 1000 yrs, what would be the point if Christians are not here?

One scripture that you were likely approached with very early on is Rev 21:3,4 which talks about death being done away with, correct? Clearly that is speaking of earth right? I know of no one who resides in heaven being recorded as dying, satan and the demons demise is yet future.

I don't want to lay too much on you, but this should be enough to realize that God intended for the earth to be populated, and He never fails sir. Nice meeting you, and please feel free to state how you honestly feel, and I will do my utmost to give you scriptural evidence for the whys and wherefores of our faith. Thanks ever so much for asking. Feel free to give me a personal letter in the inbox as well.

 

[Robert Gwin]

[QUOTE=" The JW,s are 100% correct on this matter.

And do you really think that Jesus is not the mediator for millions of people and the faithful and discreet slave is instead? And do you really think a great portion of new testament scripture isn’t speaking to everyone, only the 144,000?[/QUOTE]

We do not teach the faithful slave is the mediator of Christians sir. Virtually all of the letters of the New testament is actually identified to whom they are speaking to. Jesus only made the covenant on the night of his death with his apostles, even though there were a vast multitude outside who were covenanted people of God as well. That covenant is only made with anointed Christians.

 

[Robert Gwin]

And do you really think that Jesus is not the mediator for millions of people and the faithful and discreet slave is instead? And do you really think a great portion of new testament scripture isn’t speaking to everyone, only the 144,000?

I think the witnesses are the only ones who believe that.I think also that they restrict who takes Communion too. It is reserved for the 144,000.
Most every other church allows all to take communion.

Jesus is Mediator for everyone. Do they teach He isn't?

Also, I think Jesus takes all of the righteous with Him to heaven. 1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That is for everyone.
144,000 have a special place, walking with Christ "following the Lamb, wherever He goes", but that does not mean that Heaven belongs only to them.
I also, and forgive me, cringe at the term "discreet slave". A slave is a slave because he has to be.[/QUOTE]


Jehovah's witnesses do not believe the faithful slave is the mediator of humans. The faithful slave was appointed to feed and shepherd the sheep that would be gathered, during the last days I might add. I think the evidence is quite clear, who else has the spiritual feast that is available to us through them? Not only us, but every individual on earth can be benefited by it.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I believe so, I would like a Jehovah's Witness to come on here and explain it more as I am still only studying. The FDS is the Faithful and Discreet Slave which they believe they were appointed to by Jesus in 1919. They believe salvation is only available through this 'Slave' as they are the only true church that Jesus and Jehovah recognize on earth now.

If I've got this wrong I would love a JW to come here and correct me.

Salvation comes only through your personal relationship with God. You might compare the faithful slave to Moses, even if we are wrong on who they are, it is a Biblical teaching from Jesus, therefore they have to be here somewhere. What is their assignment? To feed the sheep. The spiritual food that comes from the slave of course is not new, as the Bible was complete by the year 100, what is not new however is the understanding that would be released over time Pro 4:18; Dan 12:4.

Keep in mind if what they say is from God, disobedience of what they say, just like being disobedient ot Moses would be the same as disobeying Jesus. So now you have to determine if you believe we are in the last days that Jesus was talking about in Mat 24, and if you think that it would be best to find out who that faithful slave is, because it was Jesus that said he would assign that slave to represent him until his return.

 

[doxley]

Jesus wasn’t singling groups of people out in MT 5:5. he was talking to the crowd as a whole. He talked about both heaven and earth and I’ve already said I believe in premillennialism which means I believe in a millennium reign of Christ on earth. I’m just not sure it’s up to mere men to decide who goes where.
The following verses all talk about one flock and one shepherd, not two separate classes of sheep. In John 10:16 he is talking about grafting the gentiles into ‘The Israel of God’.

John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold;n those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.
Ezekiel 34:23 I will raise up one shepherd over them, my servant David, and he will feed them. He himself will feed them and become their shepherd.
Ezekiel 37:24 “‘“My servant David will be their king, and they will all have one shepherd. They will walk in my judicial decisions and carefully observe my statutes
1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief shepherd has been made manifest, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Also note Ezekiel 34:24 – “he himself will feed them”, not a governing body of men.

“even if we are wrong on who they are, it is a Biblical teaching from Jesus”

where does it teach this?

“ Jesus only made the covenant on the night of his death with his apostles, even though there were a vast multitude outside who were covenanted people of God as well. That covenant is only made with anointed Christians.

If I use this reasoning then only those apostles are part of that covenant and no one else. You can’t pick or choose who to apply it to, it is either meant as God’s word to us as humans, and therefore not discriminative, or it is a story about how Jesus made a special covenant with some disciples sat at his table and no one else.

 

[Cassandra]

Jehovah's witnesses do not believe the faithful slave is the mediator of humans. The faithful slave was appointed to feed and shepherd the sheep that would be gathered, during the last days I might add. I think the evidence is quite clear, who else has the spiritual feast that is available to us through them? Not only us, but every individual on earth can be benefited by it

You say the evidence is quite clear. Evidence for what?
And why is the slave noted as discreet? Why does he have to be?

 

[bbyrd009]

And do you really think that Jesus is not the mediator for millions of people and the faithful and discreet slave is instead? And do you really think a great portion of new testament scripture isn’t speaking to everyone, only the 144,000?

ntmy, im mark

fwiw “12” is kind of a code-term in the Bible i think, and so is 1000, so while i dont know, 12x12000 might be rabbi-code for “all” anyway? And we are talking about The Revelation right? Where everyone believes it’s about the future, and where everyone pretty much starts or is attracted to when they first start reading the Bible?

iow you are more or less seeking the “right” religion right now based upon their various prognostications about what will happen in the future/after death?

so, the “great crowd” = the “greys” of mithraism/cult of sol invictus, in that context, imo, although i guess JWs might not like the comparison much, but Yah seems to have allowed Emperor Constantine to turn nascent Christianity into the cult of sol invictus, Apollos waters