The Heresy of Perfectionism

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
An ancient heresy of the distinction between two types of Christians, carnal and Spirit-filled, is the heresy of perfectionism. Perfectionism teaches that there is a class of Christians who achieve moral perfection in this life. To be sure, credit is given to the Holy Spirit as the agent who brings total victory over sin to the Christian. But there is a kind of elitism in perfectionism, a feeling that those who have achieved perfection are somehow greater than other Christians. The “perfect” ones do not officially—take credit for their state, but smugness and pride have a way of creeping in.

The peril of perfectionism is that it seriously distorts the human mind. Imagine the contortions through which we must put ourselves to delude us into thinking that we have in fact achieved a state of sinlessness.

Inevitably the error of perfectionism breeds one, or usually two, deadly delusions. To convince ourselves that we have achieved sinlessness, we must either suffer from a radical overestimation of our moral performance or we must seriously underestimate the requirements of God’s law. The irony of perfectionism is this: Though it seeks to distance itself from antinomianism, it relentlessly and inevitably comes full circle to the same error.

To believe that we are sinless we must annul the standards of God’s Law. We must reduce the level of divine righteousness to the level of our own performance. We must lie to ourselves both about the Law of God and about our own obedience. To do that requires that we quench the Spirit when He seeks to convict us of sin. Persons who do that are not so much Spirit-filled as they are Spirit-quenchers.

One of the true marks of our ongoing sanctification is the growing awareness of how far short we fall of reaching perfection. Perfectionism is really antiperfectionism in disguise. If we think we are becoming perfect, then we are far from becoming perfect.

If we think we are becoming perfect, then we are far from becoming perfect.
I once encountered a young man who had been a Christian for about a year. He boldly declared to me that he had received the “second blessing” and was now enjoying a life of victory, a life of sinless perfection. I immediately turned his attention to Paul’s teaching on Romans 7. Romans 7 is the biblical death blow to every doctrine of perfectionism. My young friend quickly replied with the classic agreement of the perfectionist heresy, namely, that in Romans 7 Paul is describing his former unconverted state.

I explained to the young man that it is exegetically impossible to dismiss Romans 7 as the expression of Paul’s former life. We examined the passage closely and the man finally agreed that indeed Paul was writing in the present tense. His next response was, “Well, maybe Paul was speaking of his present experience, but he just hadn’t received the second blessing yet.”

I had a difficult time concealing my astonishment at this spiritual arrogance. I asked him pointedly, “You mean that You, at age nineteen, after one year of Christian faith, have achieved a higher level of obedience to God than the apostle Paul enjoyed when he was writing the Epistle to the Romans?”

To my everlasting shock the young man replied without flinching, “Yes!” Such is the extent to which persons will delude themselves into thinking that they have achieved sinlessness.

I spoke once with a woman who claimed the same “second blessing” of perfectionism who qualified her claim a bit. She said that she was fully sanctified into holiness so that she never committed any willful sins. But she acknowledged that occasionally she still committed sins, though never willfully. Her present sins were unwillful.

What in the world is an unwillful sin? All sin involves the exercise of the will. If an action happens apart from the will it is not a moral action. The involuntary beating of my heart is not a moral action. All sin is willful. Indeed, the corrupt inclination of the will is of the very essence of sin. There is no sin without the willing of sin. The woman was excusing her own sin by denying that she had willed to commit the sin. The sin just sort of “happened.” It was the oldest self-justification known to man: “I didn’t mean to do it!”

In one strand of the Wesleyan tradition there is another type of qualified perfectionism. Here the achievement of perfection is limited to a perfected love. We may continue to struggle with certain moral weaknesses, but at least we can receive the blessing of a perfected love. But think on this a moment. If we received the blessing of a love that was absolutely perfect, how then would we ever commit any kind of sin? If I ever loved God perfectly, I would will only obedience to Him. How could a creature who loved God perfectly ever sin against Him at all?

Someone might answer: “We could still sin against Him in ignorance.” But the perfect love with which we are called to love God is a perfect love of our minds as well as our hearts. If we perfectly loved God with all of our minds, from whence could this ignorance flow? One who loves God perfectly with the mind is perfectly diligent in studying and mastering the Word of God. The perfectly loving mind perceives correctly the light into our paths. A perfectly loving mind doesn’t make errors in understanding Scripture.

But could we not still make mistakes because our minds are less than perfect? I ask why our minds are less than perfect. It is not because we lack brains or the faculty of thinking. Our thinking is clouded because our hearts are clouded. Take away the cloud from our hearts and our minds are illumined by the clear light of God.

A perfect love would yield perfect obedience. The only perfected love this world has ever seen was the love of Christ, who exhibited perfect obedience. Jesus loved the Father perfectly. He sinned not at all, either willfully or in ignorance.

Excerpt from R.C. Sproul’s, Pleasing God.
 

HammerStone

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Feb 12, 2006
5,113
279
83
36
South Carolina
prayerforums.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is a good quote from Dr. Sproul.

I am a fan of Wesley (and his contemporary, Charles Spurgeon) who tend to be two of my favorite figures (who aren't Christ) outside of Biblical ones. They both had mutual respect for one another, with the notably Calvinist Spurgeon considering Wesley in the mold of an apostle for their generation in a hypothetical sense.

As I've seen it, and this is born out by later Holiness and Pentecostal offshoots of the Wesleyan system, you end up with an incredible burden in Christian perfectionism. In other words, you end up with the burden to be perfect. It's the same wellspring from which you get these name-it-and-claim-it-style doctrines of having enough faith to make something happen. Sick? You don't have faith! Imperfection? You don't have enough faith!

And then you have this level of the second blessing or outpouring, and of course this is most often qualified by tongues or some other such gift/device.

Thus why the doctrine of sanctification is the linchpin and emphasis (whereas Reformed theology gravitates towards God's sovereignty). It makes sense of a number of passages with Christ at work in us, but the doctrine leaves many feeling quite inadequate when we inevitably flub. I also don't quite know, in a defined sense, where sins of comission and omission would fit. It would seem obvious that a sin of comission would be intentional, but what about a sin of omission?

If you're constantly worried about doing something, aren't you still enslaved? I realize a lot of these folks come off, much like the figure in the passage, as being very confident, but I see this most often lurking under the surface of even the most confident. I think Paul captures it so well in Romans 7..."I know what I should, but I do what I shouldn't do anyway."
 

Axehead

New Member
May 9, 2012
2,222
205
0
HammerStone said:
This is a good quote from Dr. Sproul.

I am a fan of Wesley (and his contemporary, Charles Spurgeon) who tend to be two of my favorite figures (who aren't Christ) outside of Biblical ones. They both had mutual respect for one another, with the notably Calvinist Spurgeon considering Wesley in the mold of an apostle for their generation in a hypothetical sense.

As I've seen it, and this is born out by later Holiness and Pentecostal offshoots of the Wesleyan system, you end up with an incredible burden in Christian perfectionism. In other words, you end up with the burden to be perfect. It's the same wellspring from which you get these name-it-and-claim-it-style doctrines of having enough faith to make something happen. Sick? You don't have faith! Imperfection? You don't have enough faith!

And then you have this level of the second blessing or outpouring, and of course this is most often qualified by tongues or some other such gift/device.

Thus why the doctrine of sanctification is the linchpin and emphasis (whereas Reformed theology gravitates towards God's sovereignty). It makes sense of a number of passages with Christ at work in us, but the doctrine leaves many feeling quite inadequate when we inevitably flub. I also don't quite know, in a defined sense, where sins of comission and omission would fit. It would seem obvious that a sin of comission would be intentional, but what about a sin of omission?

If you're constantly worried about doing something, aren't you still enslaved? I realize a lot of these folks come off, much like the figure in the passage, as being very confident, but I see this most often lurking under the surface of even the most confident. I think Paul captures it so well in Romans 7..."I know what I should, but I do what I shouldn't do anyway."
It's only a burden if you think YOU have to achieve it. Christ wants us to be concerned with loving Him and abiding in Him, wholly and completely and our burdens will then seem light because we have taken on His burden and His yoke, which are light and easy compared to our own. We only have to be concerned about loving Him with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength (that is plenty enough). When people get their eyes on introspection and personal inventory to the point of keeping tabs on themselves regarding whether they have reached this "plateau" of perfectionism, they have already lost the battle and removed their affection for Christ. Their affection is now for themselves and their attitude will reflect it.

We have become too religious in wanting to break down every scripture and codify them so that we have a manual to follow and which to base our life's decisions on whether than a revealed word from the Living Christ. It is far more easier to follow a manual and men's ideas than follow and obey the Holy Spirit. It takes a life of prayer to stay close to God and in communication with Him. Not so, with a manual.
 
  • Like
Reactions: IanLC

IanLC

Active Member
Encounter Team
Mar 22, 2011
862
80
28
North Carolina
Its the Holy Ghost that brings out holiness in the life of the believer! If you try to do it; you will be frustrated because you can't! Yet if Christ doeth the Work it shall come to fruition! (Philippians 1:6; Jude 1:24; 2 Corinthians 7:1)
 

HammerStone

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Feb 12, 2006
5,113
279
83
36
South Carolina
prayerforums.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, isn't that where Christian perfectionism drives you when you really think about it? The key is the general emphasis on willing sin as in Wesley's case. Wesley more or less said that one could sin where one wasn't aware of sinning and there wasn't much we could do or even be held responsible for there, but that we should break out of willing sin.

By definition, you are trying not to sin. You can couch it in language that points to Christ and says I derive this perfected will from Christ, but at the end of the day, this only keeps tabs on the sin that you yourself are aware of. The sins that you don't know you're committing are still ongoing with this doctrine.

When reading Paul in particular, Romans paints a very much ongoing struggle. The problem with it all for us is that we do know better but do it anyway. Sanctification is an ongoing process and we see in part now, with the implication that we will not see in full until later. We are saved, yes, but also being saved.


We have become too religious in wanting to break down every scripture and codify them so that we have a manual to follow and which to base our life's decisions on whether than a revealed word from the Living Christ. It is far more easier to follow a manual and men's ideas than follow and obey the Holy Spirit. It takes a life of prayer to stay close to God and in communication with Him. Not so, with a manual.
And this is where a large portion of perfectionism leads. You have to check certain boxes that you've had that second outpouring.
 

John Zain

Newbie trainee
Sep 16, 2010
750
32
0
San Diego, CA
John 3:36 King James Version (KJV)


"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:
and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life;
but the wrath of God abideth on him."

The KJV boys got it wrong again (and was dutifully copied by the NKJV).

John 3:36 in the Greek ...

He who believes πιστεύων pisteuōn 4100 to believe, entrust from pistis
he who does not obey πειθν apeithōn 544 to disobey from apeithés

And to think we actually have a good old boys club called "King James Only".
Lots of members, but always room for more!
 

IanLC

Active Member
Encounter Team
Mar 22, 2011
862
80
28
North Carolina
Hammerstone, I think we are believing similarly but defining it differently;

I'm not speaking of sinless perfection. I'm speaking of holy living which on the earth in this flesh we live in relative holiness or Christian perfection. We all sin (knowingly and unknowingly) yet through the blood of Jesus we are justified, through the Word of God we are purified and through the power of the Holy Ghost we are sanctified. The inclination and will to sin is taken and one who is being sanctified will not willingly sin (Hebrews 10:26; 1 John 1:36). And if one does because we have free will the Spirit of God will convict you. Christian perfection is progressive! Progressively growing in love, faith and godliness. We are already righteous through Jesus' work and through His continued working with the Holy Ghost we shall continue "perfecting holiness". (2 Corinthians 7:1; Hebrews 12:14; 1 Peter 1:16; Romans 8:1) And when He comes we shall be like Him (1 John 3:2). No of this is accomplished through our own working but through Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:21). We are in relative holiness here yet we shall be completely holy and sanctified when we are transformed from death unto life! (1 Corinthians 15:54).

I am of the Pentecostal-Holiness persuasion and find much joy in that Christ Jesus is making me holy! And that through the power of the Holy Ghost I am free from the bondage of sin and death! Free to live in the liberty of the Spirit of God! And no one is perfect but we should love God enough to be perfected!
 

Johnlove

New Member
Jul 1, 2014
277
7
0
89
Wilson, NC
[SIZE=16pt]People talk about what Paul said in Romans seven as if he was telling us he still was struggling with sin. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]What Paul was doing is telling people just how impossible it is to not sin without God making it happen. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Paul in Romans eight tells us how God made it so one will not sin.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]New Jerusalem Bible [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Romans 8: 4-5) “This was so that the Law's requirements might be fully satisfied in us as we direct our lives not by our natural inclinations but by the Spirit.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]If one allows the Holy Spirit to direct one’s life, he or she will be sure not to commit a deliberate sin.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]And it does not need to take a long time before one is taught and given the grace to not sin at all.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]If one’s life is directed by Jesus/Holy Spirit, there sure is not going to be any pride taken by the person who is being guided by God. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The Holy Spirit/Jesus will never allow a person whom is guide by God think it is any of his or her efforts that makes it so they have defeated Satan/sin.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Jesus call us to be perfect as the Father is perfect, and he made it possible for us to be perfect[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt](Matthew 5:48) “Even the pagans do as much, do they not? You must therefore be perfect just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]A personal witness about how God stopped me from feeling like I was special because of what God is doing for me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus called me into his ministry, and I kept putting him off. This went on for two years. During the two years I started walking in a number of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Without truly realizing it I was beginning to feel like maybe there was something special about me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]One day while alone in a handball court practicing, a loud commanding voice called out my name. There was no one but me in that court. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]I knew then it was Jesus calling me. Jesus told me that all glory and honor goes to him not me. I was so upset that for three day all I could do was cry.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]There is no way in the world that I would ever do anything that would ever make Jesus scold me again. [/SIZE]
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Johnlove,
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Then why does Paul say this to the Philppeans?

Also lets keep in mind the Romans 7:14-25 is in the present tense. Thereby this is an issue he is dealing with as he is writing it.
 

IanLC

Active Member
Encounter Team
Mar 22, 2011
862
80
28
North Carolina
We press on in Christ! Our glorious redeemer who shall make us like Him! Holy & Righteous through the eternal blood of Jesus and the sanctification of His Spirit! (1 John 3:2) Sanctification is progressive!
 

Johnlove

New Member
Jul 1, 2014
277
7
0
89
Wilson, NC
justaname said:
Johnlove,
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Then why does Paul say this to the Philppeans?
[SIZE=16pt]Because Paul was not perfect. Also only Jesus know if one is perfect or not.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Paul said that Jesus has nothing against him, but he would wait to see.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]I ask Jesus if he has anything that against me, and he tells me no. But I also will wait until the last day to know for sure. [/SIZE]
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Johnlove said:
[SIZE=16pt]Because Paul was not perfect. Also only Jesus know if one is perfect or not.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Paul said that Jesus has nothing against him, but he would wait to see.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]I ask Jesus if he has anything that against me, and he tells me no. But I also will wait until the last day to know for sure. [/SIZE]
Just to qualify...

Are you stating Paul who has co-authored the majority of the New Testament was not perfect regarding sin but your are?
 
  • Like
Reactions: aspen

Johnlove

New Member
Jul 1, 2014
277
7
0
89
Wilson, NC
justaname said:
Just to qualify...

Are you stating Paul who has co-authored the majority of the New Testament was not perfect regarding sin but your are?
[SIZE=16pt]After about a year into my ministry I asked Jesus why Paul said some of the things the way he did. Jesus told me that Paul was not perfect either.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Paul was just an imperfect man that Jesus chose to use, and Paul had to grow to perfection also.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Jesus also told me he did not make perfect people but he chose to use us anyway. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Also I did not say I am perfect. What was said by me is that Jesus says he has nothing against me.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Scripture tells us that we are to be perfect, as the Father in heaven is perfect. So then I believe God made it possible for us to become perfect. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]One who becomes perfect can’t take any credit for that. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Also Jesus told us we are all brothers no one greater than another.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Paul was no greater than any other Spiritual Christian. Everything that Paul did was because of God. That is true of all of God’s Children. [/SIZE]
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Johnlove said:
After about a year into my ministry I asked Jesus why Paul said some of the things the way he did. Jesus told me that Paul was not perfect either.

Paul was just an imperfect man that Jesus chose to use, and Paul had to grow to perfection also.

Jesus also told me he did not make perfect people but he chose to use us anyway.

Also I did not say I am perfect. What was said by me is that Jesus says he has nothing against me.

Scripture tells us that we are to be perfect, as the Father in heaven is perfect. So then I believe God made it possible for us to become perfect.

One who becomes perfect can’t take any credit for that.

Also Jesus told us we are all brothers no one greater than another.

Paul was no greater than any other Spiritual Christian. Everything that Paul did was because of God. That is true of all of God’s Children.
So then are you perfect in regards to sin?
When you say Paul wasn't perfect do you mean in regards to sin? If not then please explain your position.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
53
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Surprisingly enough, it leads to the Sin of Sloth. Once you realize you cannot reach the perfection you crave, you quit trying.......everyday you quit a little more of you life. Hoarders are actually perfectionists.

BTW, being 'perfect' does not mean being God; it means being whole. Adam and Eve were created perfectly human or fully human......then they became broken humans...without sin we will, once again be perfect according to the specifications of being fully human. Sin simply means brokenness.
 

Johnlove

New Member
Jul 1, 2014
277
7
0
89
Wilson, NC
justaname said:
So then are you perfect in regards to sin?
When you say Paul wasn't perfect do you mean in regards to sin? If not then please explain your position.
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus was telling me that Paul like me had to grow to become perfect. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]My understanding of being perfect as in not sinning, is that one always does God’s will. It does not mean that one no longer just commits deliberate sin.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus told us to pray for his will to be done here on Earth and it is in Heaven.[/SIZE]
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Johnlove said:
Jesus was telling me that Paul like me had to grow to become perfect.
My understanding of being perfect as in not sinning, is that one always does God’s will. It does not mean that one no longer just commits deliberate sin.
Jesus told us to pray for his will to be done here on Earth and it is in Heaven.
Yet you have said if anyone sins they can not have the Holy Spirit. You have even said they are indwelt by the devil. Paul describes a struggle with sin transparently in Scripture yet we know his letters to be Scripture. Only the Holy Spirit can produce Scripture.

How can Paul who teaches both believers and non believers be indwelt by the devil and not the Holy Spirit? Would he not then be giving the teachings of the devil?

The doctrine of a special class of Christian is a false one. It is a doctrine that divides Christ into two bodies.
 

Johnlove

New Member
Jul 1, 2014
277
7
0
89
Wilson, NC
justaname said:
Yet you have said if anyone sins they can not have the Holy Spirit. You have even said they are indwelt by the devil. Paul describes a struggle with sin transparently in Scripture yet we know his letters to be Scripture. Only the Holy Spirit can produce Scripture.

How can Paul who teaches both believers and non believers be indwelt by the devil and not the Holy Spirit? Would he not then be giving the teachings of the devil?

The doctrine of a special class of Christian is a false one.
[SIZE=16pt]My understanding of being perfect as in not sinning, is that one always does God’s will. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Jesus told us to pray for his will to be done here on Earth and it is in Heaven.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]John when speaking about sin that leads to death, sin that says one is of the devil, he is speaking about deliberate sin.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]A deliberate sin is when one knows something is wrong, but willingly commits the act anyway.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Also such a sin only leads to death if he or she has been given the knowledge of the truth.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Paul did not any longer after receiving the Holy Spirit, struggle with a deliberate sin.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Any wrong doing is a sin, but if a person does not know an act is a wrong doing then the act is not rebelling against God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The Holy Spirit teaches a person what acts he or she is doing that are wrong. Some of those wrong doings are because of hurts that need to be healed before God gives one the grace to not do them.[/SIZE]
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
53
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John,

I need to clear something up and possibly apologize. First, I totally disagree with your exegesis and your claims of perfection, blah, blah, blah, however......I enjoy your posts because they demand a response, which makes posting on this board fun. My own beliefs are way off sometimes, but I hope it forces people to challenge their beliefs and sharpen their faith.

So basically, I appreciate your heresy because it offers the community a chance to respond. Thank you and please find someone to help you understand scripture.......speculation is one thing, but speculation combined with pride is a whole other animal.
 

pom2014

New Member
Dec 6, 2014
784
72
0
One has to define what perfect is being used contextually.

In scripture The Father calls many perfect, but it doesn't mean infallible.

Yeshua says we must become perfect like The Father, but it is NOT infallible.

So we can be perfect, within the context that people can be.

So perfection is not only possible, but a goal for people.