The hidden things of God

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Episkopos

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This thread is about the secret saving knowledge about Jesus (gnosis)
 

RichardBurger

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Risen Angel - I agree with a lot of your post. Christianity is all about Love and our relationship with God and others. I am not sure either, why some Christians want to get all gnostic about the Bible and search for hidden meaning - in my experience, God tends to hide the obvious from some people; not magical, mystical knowledge that would only add to our over inflated sense of self.

My experience with God over the years, also leads me to believe that He reveals the same message of relationship and love in deeper and more meaningful ways as our sanctification matures. Perhaps this is the 'hidden' parts?

If you do not believe that the gospel given to Paul was "HIDDEN IN GOD" and revealed to paul then what do you do with the scriptures that tell us it was? Do you just trun a blind eye to it?

Go even further and you will see scriptures that tell us that Paul was the first to be saved under his gospel of grace.

1 Tim 1:15-17
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
NKJV

But the religious can not see this verse as meaning what it says. Then they will say "I believe every word in the Bible."
 

Risen Angel

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The gospel is the good news, that's the meaning of the word. So what if people preach the good news in different ways? Each author is going to write about it differently. Jesus is going to change people in a personal and unique manner, custom defined for their life. He is a personal saviour.

However, I don't think you've grasped what Saul was writing. The law has been fulfilled; therefore, you aren't under it. The law didn't disappear; Jesus said so. The point is that the sacrifice was made, the requirements of God's law have been met. Your blood debt owed to God for your transgression has been taken care of by Jesus - maybe you've heard of him? He kind of saved the world.

"For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinth 6:20)

Look, I'm about to get locked out of this system so I'll post again later, but I think you've missed the boat in certain areas. Jesus is grace and Paul talked about it. The messages they bring are not so completely different as you think.
 

aspen

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If you do not believe that the gospel given to Paul was "HIDDEN IN GOD" and revealed to paul then what do you do with the scriptures that tell us it was? Do you just trun a blind eye to it?

Go even further and you will see scriptures that tell us that Paul was the first to be saved under his gospel of grace.

1 Tim 1:15-17
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
NKJV

But the religious can not see this verse as meaning what it says. Then they will say "I believe every word in the Bible."


Legalistic people cannot see the love in the Bible. We are called to love, not to know.
 

RichardBurger

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If you do not believe that the gospel given to Paul was "HIDDEN IN GOD" and revealed to paul then what do you do with the scriptures that tell us it was? Do you just trun a blind eye to it?

Go even further and you will see scriptures that tell us that Paul was the first to be saved under his gospel of grace.

1 Tim 1:15-17
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
NKJV

But the religious can not see this verse as meaning what it says. Then they will say "I believe every word in the Bible."


Legalistic people cannot see the love in the Bible. We are called to love, not to know.


So you do as I said, you simple will not see the scriptures given.

The gospel is the good news, that's the meaning of the word. So what if people preach the good news in different ways? Each author is going to write about it differently. Jesus is going to change people in a personal and unique manner, custom defined for their life. He is a personal saviour.

However, I don't think you've grasped what Saul was writing. The law has been fulfilled; therefore, you aren't under it. The law didn't disappear; Jesus said so. The point is that the sacrifice was made, the requirements of God's law have been met. Your blood debt owed to God for your transgression has been taken care of by Jesus - maybe you've heard of him? He kind of saved the world.

"For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinth 6:20)

Look, I'm about to get locked out of this system so I'll post again later, but I think you've missed the boat in certain areas. Jesus is grace and Paul talked about it. The messages they bring are not so completely different as you think.

However, I don't think you've grasped what Saul was writing.

When you say this who are you refering to?
 

dragonfly

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Hi Richard,

I'm beginning to read this thread, and just came to this, which hopefully I'm not the first to challenge.

(((no where in the first 4 gospels and the first few verse of Acts do we see the cross of Christ mentioned.))

That's an outrageous statement!!!

The cross of Christ is in view for a significant part of each gospel.....

to say nothing of the fact that one of the gospels was written by a man who watched Him being crucified; John Zebedee was the first man to make this point:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
 

JohnnyB

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Hi Richard,

I'm beginning to read this thread, and just came to this, which hopefully I'm not the first to challenge.



That's an outrageous statement!!!

The cross of Christ is in view for a significant part of each gospel.....

to say nothing of the fact that one of the gospels was written by a man who watched Him being crucified; John Zebedee was the first man to make this point:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

That was a good catch df!

I wonder though, Richard's "gospel" ignores Jesus' teaching, so it could be he doesn't even know what the gospels say let alone understand their significance.

I am not saying this in a sarcastic way, I am truly trying to figure out how someone can miss the cross in the 4 gospels?
 

RichardBurger

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Hi Richard,

I'm beginning to read this thread, and just came to this, which hopefully I'm not the first to challenge.



That's an outrageous statement!!!

The cross of Christ is in view for a significant part of each gospel.....

to say nothing of the fact that one of the gospels was written by a man who watched Him being crucified; John Zebedee was the first man to make this point:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

But do they say that the Gentiles would be saved outside of the Law of Moses simply by placing their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross?

If you think the fist 4 books of the N.T. teach the above then show the scriptures that say it. If not cast closed.

That was a good catch df!

I wonder though, Richard's "gospel" ignores Jesus' teaching, so it could be he doesn't even know what the gospels say let alone understand their significance.

I am not saying this in a sarcastic way, I am truly trying to figure out how someone can miss the cross in the 4 gospels?

I never said the cross was not MENTIONED in the first 4 books of the N.T. You wish to say that I did in order to further your attempt to dimish what I said.

I will say the same thing I did to dragonfly. Show the scripture where Jesus and the 12 taught the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. Even Peter was having a hard time coping with the teachings of Paul.

2 Peter 3:14-16
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation — as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
NKJV

It was hard for the 12 to understand that the Gentiles would be saved outside of the Law of Moses and the Jewish religion. It is just as hard for the religious today to reach out in faith in the work of Jesus on the cross without including the works of man to complete salvation. As if this work was not completed by Jesus on the cross.
 

dragonfly

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Thanks, Johnny.

You will be amazed at the similarities - not differences - between Peter's and Paul's preaching - considering they didn't meet for very long or very often. Stephen's sermon is a good example of what non-Petrine, pre-Pauline preaching sounded like, (seeing his clothes were laid at Saul's feet when he was stoned to death). We might surmise that Saul had also 'heard' his whole sermon, but didn't want to believe it. Perhaps this was one of the 'pricks' to which Jesus referred when He stopped him on the road to Damascus?



Hi Richard,

I return you to Paul's letter to the Ephesians to begin to answer your question -

But do they say that the Gentiles would be saved outside of the Law of Moses simply by placing their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross?

First, here's a clip of Peter's preaching. You will notice that he proclaims the gospel to 'all that are afar off'. Now, why would he do that?

He would do that because Jesus told the eleven this: '... repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:47, Matt 28:19, 20

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.... This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.... Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.... Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, for the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. (Extracts from Acts 2) (See Luke 24:44 - 49)


So, when Peter included 'and to all that are afar off' in his sermon on the day of Pentecost, he was intentionally including the Gentiles among whom the Jews (who had come for Passover and Pentecost) normally lived - Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians (Acts 2).


Now here is Paul's clip, writing to a church of mainly Gentile converts -

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.... that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Ephesians 2:13, 16, 17, 18.

(The references to commandments, (which I missed out,) were the commandments that had kept Jews and Gentiles separated.)

Paul's phrase 'are made nigh' is exactly the same as Peter used in Acts 2 when he referred to the Jews/Israelites as 'nigh' - meaning that they previously had had a close relationship with God.

Paul is now reminding the Ephesians that they have become members of 'the commonwealth of Israel' and, therefore, equal beneficiaries of 'the covenants of promise', from all of which, before they had believed in Jesus Christ, they were total strangers. (Gal 3:14)


So Richard, it's ironic that it was Paul who mentioned the Law of Moses, isn't it? (Peter didn't go near it!)
 

RichardBurger

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Hi Richard,

First, here's a clip of Peter's preaching. You will notice that he proclaims the gospel to 'all that are afar off'. Now, why would he do that?

He would do that because Jesus told the eleven this: '... repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:47, Matt 28:19, 20


So, when Peter included 'and to all that are afar off' in his sermon on the day of Pentecost, he was intentionally including the Gentiles among whom the Jews (who had come for Passover and Pentecost) normally lived - Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians (Acts 2).

So since the words 'and to all that are afar off' are the same they mean the same thing any any context. That certainly isn't the way you read and study the scriptures. Context determines the meaning. Peter was speaking to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles.

You really know how to stretch the scriptures don't you?

If Peter was including the Gentiles in his sermon to the Jews on the day of Pentacost then why did God have to give him a vision of unclean food to eat in order for Peter to know the Gentiles were to be included? Peter certainly didn't know it on the day of Pentacost when he was speaking to the Jews.

Sorry, good try but it falls short of the truth. I have started a new thread about Peter's sermon on the day of Pentacost. You would do well to read it.
 

dragonfly

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Hi Richard,

Peter certainly didn't know it on the day of Pentacost when he was speaking to the Jews.

I agree with you that Peter seems to have forgotten about the Gentiles by the time of that vision in Acts, but there is no doubt that he had been instructed to preach to 'all nations' - and that that cannot mean anything but 'to Genties'.

The way I understand how Peter could say that on the day of Pentecost, and 'to you first' to Jews in the Temple at the end of Acts 3, is that he was speaking as the Holy Spirit put the words into his mouth.

I don't know whether you believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit for today, but I do because I've seen its effects in operation many times, and I've seen believers prophesying, and sometimes the message is naturally incomprehensible, just as we see with Peter almost accidentally including Gentiles in his call to repentance. By this, we understand that the Holy Spirit is also the Person who reveals God's meaning to our understanding.
 

RichardBurger

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Hi Richard,



I agree with you that Peter seems to have forgotten about the Gentiles by the time of that vision in Acts, but there is no doubt that he had been instructed to preach to 'all nations' - and that that cannot mean anything but 'to Genties'.

The way I understand how Peter could say that on the day of Pentecost, and 'to you first' to Jews in the Temple at the end of Acts 3, is that he was speaking as the Holy Spirit put the words into his mouth.

I don't know whether you believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit for today, but I do because I've seen its effects in operation many times, and I've seen believers prophesying, and sometimes the message is naturally incomprehensible, just as we see with Peter almost accidentally including Gentiles in his call to repentance. By this, we understand that the Holy Spirit is also the Person who reveals God's meaning to our understanding.

Of course I believe that a child of God is baptized by the Holy Spirit. But it isn't with water.

The 12 were to preach that Jesus was the Son of God, the Messiah, their king, to the nation of Israel (Jews) first ---- then to the Gentiles. It is obvious to me that since they could not persuade the Jews it would be imposible for them to persuade the Gentiles. But in case you didn't read it in GAL. the 12 and Paul made an agreement that the 12 would go to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. If you believe the scriptures then you will believe that Peter and the other only went to the Jews.

Gal 2:6-10
6 But from those who seemed to be something — whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man — for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
NKJV

Can you see the above??????? If not then perhaps this one.

Acts 11:19
19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only.
NKJV
 

Arnie Manitoba

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The things of God can not be understood by men unless they are revealed to them by God. As it can be seen, even those to whom Jesus told things His words were hidden from their eyes. Today it is the same, men think they know about God's will for them simple by interpretations of the scriptures and can not see thyat they mean exactly what they say in context.

I am not involved in this debate ..... but want to add my personal comment ....

I am usually a careful and thoughtful reader of the bible .... and I sometimes enjoy reading the same chapters over and over again through the years .... no problem.

Then all of a sudden a verse or two will jump out at me (sometimes it is a single key word) ..... and reveal something that I never noticed before .... in those situations it is like it was kept hidden until god wanted to reveal it to me at that specific time.

I am talking about portions of the bible I was very familiar with and understood completely (or so I thought)

Anyone else ever have that happen ??

With that in mind I agree with Richard that God sometimes keeps some things hidden from some people .... . And it appears God does it for his own reasons .... reasons that do not always make sense to us..
 

dragonfly

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Hi Arnie,

Absolutely! It is a common thing for me, that something I'd never 'seen' before 'jumps out' from the page of scripture.



.
Hi Richard,

But in case you didn't read it in GAL. the 12 and Paul made an agreement that the 12 would go to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. If you believe the scriptures then you will believe that Peter and the other only went to the Jews.

This is indeed what they agreed between themselves as men.

But the record of shows that God still moved Peter to write to non-Jewish believers, and God still moved Paul to minister to Jews.

This fact is not out of keeping to God's word to both of them. The fact is, Jesus commanded the disciples to go to the nations. Matthew's quotations from Isaiah, show that he understood it had been prophesied that the Gentiles would come into the kingdom of God.

But although Isaiah had been prophesying hundreds of years before Christ, the whole of Israel knew that God had told Abraham that through him, all the nations of the earth would be blessed. There could not have been a Jew alive who was not aware of that particular word from God, but, they had so turned away from God in their hearts, that Jesus found himself commending non-Israelites for their faith - such as the centurion whose servant was sick. The separation from Gentiles which the law of Moses necessitated, added to the Jews sense of being special to God. Paul had been steeped in this mindset. That's why just like Peter, Paul needed his own revelation from God (as we all do about our own blindspots, may I say), to show him that Gentiles were to be counted in with Israel as equal recipients of all the 'covenants of promise'.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ,

being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];


Acts 13:15 But the Lord said to him [Ananias], Go thy way:

for he [Saul] is a chosen vessel to me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Richard, if you read from Acts 9 - 13, you'll see that Saul, who became known as Paul, preached to 'children of Israel'. Of course he would have heard soon after his conversion, that Gentiles had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit through Peter's ministry, as he also had had received God's commission to himself to preach to Gentiles through Ananias' prophecy.

Eventually, after certain Jews refused the gospel of Jesus Christ, Paul and Barnabas declared they had decided to concentrate on preaching to Gentiles, Acts 13:47, 48, 49, but it was not long before Paul found himself constrained to preach to Jews again, and this went on for the rest of his ministry, as well as his mission to Gentiles.


You will see in the following verses that Paul was still preaching to Jews.

Acts 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they [Paul and Barnabas] went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

Looking in Acts 15 we notice the correct use (by Luke) of the word 'church'. Note how both references are about Israelite believers, to whom Paul also is referring later in his ministry when he writes to the 'church' at Corinth about being members of the body of Christ. He uses the same language in his epistle to the Romans, where also (as in Corinth) both Israelite and Gentile believers assembled to worship God as one.

Acts 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, [at Antioch] they [Paul and Barnabas] passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

Here again in Acts 17 we find Paul preaching to Jews in a synagogue.

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in to them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. 4 And some of them [Jews] believed...'

Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea:
who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews.

Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.

17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons...'

Acts 18:4 And he [Paul] reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. 5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews [that] Jesus [was] Christ.

Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians

hearing believed, and were baptized.

Acts 18:19b '... but he [Paul] himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

Acts 19:8 And he [Paul] went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. 9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus. 10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.


Hopefully it is clear from these accounts, that Paul continued preaching to Jews, frequently with Gentiles (Greeks) at the same time.
 

Faithful

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RichardBurgess and Whitestone,


John 16:13

King James Version (KJV)

[sup]13 [/sup]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.



1 Corinthians 12:3

King James Version (KJV)

[sup]3 [/sup]Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 12:13

King James Version (KJV)

[sup]13 [/sup]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


The Holy Spirit teaches us all. The truth must already be in you. Otherwise you could not worship in Spirit and Truth. The gifts and the fruit of the Spirit.



1 Corinthians 2:7-11

King James Version (KJV)

[sup]7 [/sup]But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
[sup]8 [/sup]Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[sup]9 [/sup]But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
[sup]10 [/sup]But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
[sup]11 [/sup]For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


Do you believe the Spirit of God teaches us and leads us into all truth?
Do you believe what Christ taught? You require your own oil.
The LORD God gave us what we have as gifts to share with the others. Our gifts build up the body and everyone should understand all those gifts and what is being given.
If someone has a word then those in Spirit will understand.
If someone has the gift of healing then those needing healing will be healed.

No one is more special in Christ, we are given gifts according to the work God has prepared for each of us before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 & 2:10

King James Version (KJV)

[sup]4 [/sup]According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[sup]10 [/sup]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God does his own good works through us. We have no glory for the glory belongs to GOD.

We are all one body and all saved by grace we did not earn our place in the family of God.
It is God's free gift to us all that we should be one family.
 

RichardBurger

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RichardBurger and Whitestone,

1. Do you believe the Spirit of God teaches us and leads us into all truth?
2. Do you believe what Christ taught? You require your own oil.

1a. yes

2a. I believe that what Jesus taught was to the Jews, not the Gentiles.

Jesus Christ, by His own words, did not come to minister to the Gentiles, nor was His message "the kingdom gospel" sent to the Gentiles. He did not offer the "kingdom of heaven" to the Gentiles. The following scriptures support my view.

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Note that in Matt 10:5-7 and Matt 15:23-24 Jesus said He did not come EXCEPT to the house of Israel. Jesus came to confirm/fulfill all that was written of Him in the O.T. His mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. This is what Paul meant in Rom 15:8.

Jesus never rescinded the law of Moses and yet when Jesus gave Paul the “HIDDEN IN GOD” message to the Gentiles it was a message (gospel) of grace, not law.
 

Trekson

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I don't know what all the fuss is about. Richard is correct when he says the gospel of grace as taught by Paul was different from what Christ taught but there is a good reason for that. Jesus lived, taught and died under the law. In Christ's teachings, we get glimpses of grace and mercy but not the whole story. Paul was given the task of showing Jewish and Gentile believers what the christian life would look like without the law.

Jesus couldn't teach what hadn't become a reality yet. Heb.9:15-17 - "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
[sup]16 [/sup]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [sup]17 [/sup]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."

The new covenant of grace could not be taught until Christ died.

Richard, You haven't explained why understanding this is so important to you. In regards to your post about Peter's sermon, the Holy Spirit used it to convict "that audience, at that time" as it was fresh in their minds. Imo, Peter wasn't generalizing the message of salvation was different for Jews, then it is for Gentiles. It was just their latest great sin, they still had to repent for everything else they may have done.
 

dragonfly

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Hi Richard,

Jesus never rescinded the law of Moses and yet when Jesus gave Paul the “HIDDEN IN GOD” message to the Gentiles it was a message (gospel) of grace, not law.

I have shown you how the content of Peter's message was the same as Paul's message, so do have specific verses in mind from Acts, which show 'the 12', as you call them, preaching about the need to keep the Mosaic Law?

What was Paul talking about here, when he challenged Peter?

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before [them] all,

If thou, being a Jew, live after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews.................. ?


Doesn't sound much like law-keeping to me.... ;)

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Hi Trekson,

The point Richard had made was that Peter did not preach 'Christ crucified' as Paul did, and yet if you examine the content of Peter's message as it applies to Christ, he says more about Christ's credentials, death and resurrection than is recorded of Paul's words.

What we deduce about Paul's preaching is that it contains a great deal of proving that Jesus was the Christ. This Peter also did.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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1a. yes

2a. I believe that what Jesus taught was to the Jews, not the Gentiles.

Jesus Christ, by His own words, did not come to minister to the Gentiles, nor was His message "the kingdom gospel" sent to the Gentiles. He did not offer the "kingdom of heaven" to the Gentiles. The following scriptures support my view.

Wow , never thought about it that way before. I have always been careful to understand that when Jesus was talking to Jews .... to keep in mind it may not pertain to us (gentiles).

That is a pretty straight forward use of proper context , no big deal ... but your mention of .... "Jesus Christ, by His own words, did not come to minister to the Gentiles" ...... stopped me dead in my tracks .....

At this moment I suspect you are correct ..... will have to give it a lot of thought ..... and get back once I have more of a firm opinion.

I have always leaned heavily on Paul (because i am gentile) .... with a blend of Jesus' instruction .... but the two did not always fit together quite right. I found that puzzling.

If what you say is true (I suspect it is) .... all of a sudden a whole new clarity comes into focus for me. And to think it has been in front of us all along.

Again I say wow. This is like one of those profound moments where all of a sudden everything makes complete sense. It removed the friction between the Gospels and Paul's writings.

edit :
I just reread my post .... I'm not going to change anything .... but I have been analyzing my thoughts ... they are something along the lines of .....

Every time I read the gospels , knowing the audience were Jews .... in my mind I would think in the third person .... as though I was a Jew .... apply the teaching to myself .... then hop back into my gentile skin and try to apply the teaching to myself.

I was applying the gospel completely out of context (because I am gentile).

This is so obvious .... but I never saw it until now.

Yet for 25 years I have been careful to read everything in proper context. Go figure.

Hope that makes sense. I expect Richard will understand.