The Holy Trinity in 1 John 5:7

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APAK

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In John 8.24 Jesus says that if you don't believe that He is YHWH you will die in your sins and not go to heaven
I have noticed now from your OP to here you take liberties with meanings and translations of scripture. You conveniently substitute phrases, sayings or names at will. If you are trying to show some serious biblical study, then do as @tigger 2 has done without looking for a desired outcome; and even see some of my older comments on this subject over a few years now and from others. We cannot go about reading into scripture and then adding these things into it to safeguard and ensure that our narratives and theories always get baked the same way for every one to see. Some folks like me can see through this façade of your and others like others before you.

You know you need to marry or piece together all your trinitarian biased interpretations of scriptures to show a Trinity and not just with a few like 1 John 5:7 or John 1:1-3, 18 etc and etc. And you cannot even do it with these scriptures. And then there is the handy and convenient 'I am' that you incorrectly interpret for your Trinity theory and support; there's a difference between the Hebrew and Greek of this phase, and you have conveniently used the Hebrew (Exodus) to translate the Greek that has a completely different meaning as @tigger 2 has clearly covered.

You have to 'force' scripture to mean what you want and not what is really says in translation and context.

Just my opinion as every one have one.

APAK
 
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Amazed@grace

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Trinity teaching entered the church in 70A.D.
ChurchAges.net - Trinity entered the church at Nicaea

One God. Not three separate and distinct person's. Spirit is not person. God is holy spirit. Jesus was holy spirit, to he died, made flesh.

Hear oh Israel our God our God is one!


In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God....
And the word became flesh and dwelt among us.

God is holy spirit and God was Jesus.

1 John 5:1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves the child born of Him. ...

4 For whoever has been born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith.

5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9 If we receive the testimony of people, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.


For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.” (NASB)


February 13, 2016

Please note: the middle parts of verses 7-8 (not here quoted, but in the KJV) are spurious. Those words were added by scribes. Today, scholars agree that those omitted words are not part of the Bible. The New American Standard Bible (NASB) accurately translates this scripture passage.

In 1 John 5, the Apostle John is trying to express and prove that Jesus is really the “Christ”. He is the son of God.

The Spirit, the water, and the blood, are three things which testify to this fact. We can not rely on the testimonies of corrupt men to prove who Jesus is. So John chose three things that are from God to be a witness of Jesus’ true identity. In this verse, John is pointing out that all of them say the same thing, “…and these three agree.”

The order in which John listed these is chronological. At his baptism, Jesus received the Holy Spirit. The water is relevant during his ministry; and the blood came at the end of his life when Jesus sacrificed everything on the cross. Let’s look specifically at each one....
Can you explain 1 John 5:7-8, “For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.” (NASB) - Chicago Bible Students
 

Amazed@grace

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And really, no trinitarian is going to be left to change their mind here.

As long as God knows our name and we know him, the falsity of pagan men and tri- theism shall be overcome by the truth of God in Christ. :) Hallelujah!
 
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Curtis

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Some trinitarians claim that Jesus was declaring himself to be Jehovah God because he said “I AM” (ego eimi [ἐγὼ εἰμί] in the original NT Greek) at John 8:58.

Their reasoning goes like this: Exodus 3:14 in some English Bible translations has Jehovah God revealing himself as “I AM WHO I AM” and “I AM.” So, they say, Jesus’ statement at John 8:58 shows him revealing himself by the same exclusive title (name? description?) as Jehovah (“I AM” at Exodus 3:14) and, therefore, he is Jehovah God!

Furthermore, some of these trinitarians say, the Jews understood perfectly that Jesus was claiming to be Jehovah when he used those two words because they immediately took up stones to kill him.

But these Jews of Judea had already decided beforehand to kill Jesus! (John 7:1, 25) They needed no further incentives. Nothing that Jesus said or did at this point would have made any difference to them.

If the Jews had really understood the phrase “I AM” (ego eimi) to mean the speaker was claiming to be Jehovah and that they should therefore kill him, they would have immediately stoned Jesus at John 8:24 or :28. (The actual Greek in the ancient Bible manuscripts is identical to John 8:58, ego eimi, but many English Bible translations properly add “he” so that it can be understood as “I am he” in English.) Nevertheless, Jesus actually identified himself by saying ego eimi in these two verses (unlike his use of them in John 8:58!)

We know that even his disciples didn’t believe Jesus was God simply because he said ego eimi, for he identified himself to them with these very same words at John 6:20 (usually rendered into English as “It is I”), and their reaction was certainly not that of those who had come into the presence of God! - Cf. the parallel Matt. 14:27.

We should also know that the Jews didn't believe it either. Otherwise they would have immediately stoned the ex-blind man who identified himself to the Jews by saying ego eimi: John 9:9.

As for the charge that the Jews were going to stone him because he claimed to be God, we should be aware that the Jews stoned people for many offenses. For example, a person pretending to be a “wizard” was to be stoned to death according to the Law (Lev. 20:27 - KJV, RSV, ASV, LB). Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982 ed., tells us

“Wizard, a pretender to supernatural knowledge and power .... such a one was forbidden on pain of death to practice his deceptions ... Lev. 20:26, 27.” - p. 654.

There are many other capital crimes including false prophecy and Sabbath breaking.
We also know that some of the Jews wanted Jesus killed for blasphemy because he admitted to being the Messiah (Christ) - see Matt 26:59-68 and footnotes for Matt 26:65 and Luke 22:71 in The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

“But powerful forces in the Jewish congregation, jealous of his popularity, incensed by his denunciation of some of them, and bitterly critical of his disregard for formalism, his willingness to violate some of the minor laws of the Jews, and his heretical claim that he was the Son of God, repudiated him, conspired to kill him, saw him crucified, and after his death, persecuted his followers.” - The Portable World Bible, Viking Press, p. 230.

John 8:58

This instance of Jesus saying ego eimi convinced some of the Jews that he was claiming to be the Messiah (so they attempted to stone him to death on the spot). Later, Jesus was taken before the high priest and all the chief priests and questioned by them (Matt. 26:59-66; Mk 14:53-64; Luke 22:66-71).

Now if Jesus had really previously claimed to be God by saying ego eimi (or if the Jews had even thought he might have been making such a claim by saying those words), what questions would they have asked him now that they had him up before the highest Jewish court? Would they have asked “Are you the Christ?”? (Remember the Christ was not believed by the Jews to actually be God himself. - NIVSB f.n. for Mark 14:61.) Wouldn’t they have concentrated on “Do you claim to be God?”?

But what did they actually ask Jesus at this most important Jewish trial where the Jews were actually seeking to find a reason, no matter how false, to kill him? Even though they searched for any and all accusers, even false accusers (Matt. 26 59-60), to give them a reason to kill Jesus, no one accused him of claiming to be God!

“Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus in order that they might put him to death; .... And the high priest said to him, ‘I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.’” - Matt. 26:59, 63, NASB.

C’mon, be honest now! Could any honest person reasonably conclude that Jesus had claimed to be God at John 8:58 and that the deciding question at the Jews’ trial of Jesus would then be “are you the Christ?”

There is absolutely no suggestion that the Jews thought Jesus was calling himself God here! They asked no questions concerning such a thing. This is absolutely impossible if there could have been even a possibility that ego eimi at John 8:58 could mean the speaker was claiming to be God! Remember, this high court was looking for any reason to have Jesus killed!

But if his statement at John 8:58 could mean “I am the Christ,” what would these priests and chief priests have asked him? Just exactly what they did ask him: “Are you the Christ, the Son of God?”

Furthermore notice the reaction when Jesus admitted to being the Messiah: Matt. 26:65, 66!


For more of my study of this scripture see:
Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1

See my post #49.
 

Cooper

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DISTINCT Persons.
This is how it appears to the outsider looking in.

1. Unitarianism. One God, Jesus is not God.

2. Trinitarianism. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Three gods.

3. Christianity. One God, manifest in three persons. On earth the person of Jesus is, "God with us," in Spirit and in the flesh.
.
 
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Curtis

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Some trinitarians claim that Jesus was declaring himself to be Jehovah God because he said “I AM” (ego eimi [ἐγὼ εἰμί] in the original NT Greek) at John 8:58.

Their reasoning goes like this: Exodus 3:14 in some English Bible translations has Jehovah God revealing himself as “I AM WHO I AM” and “I AM.” So, they say, Jesus’ statement at John 8:58 shows him revealing himself by the same exclusive title (name? description?) as Jehovah (“I AM” at Exodus 3:14) and, therefore, he is Jehovah God!

Furthermore, some of these trinitarians say, the Jews understood perfectly that Jesus was claiming to be Jehovah when he used those two words because they immediately took up stones to kill him.

But these Jews of Judea had already decided beforehand to kill Jesus! (John 7:1, 25) They needed no further incentives. Nothing that Jesus said or did at this point would have made any difference to them.

If the Jews had really understood the phrase “I AM” (ego eimi) to mean the speaker was claiming to be Jehovah and that they should therefore kill him, they would have immediately stoned Jesus at John 8:24 or :28. (The actual Greek in the ancient Bible manuscripts is identical to John 8:58, ego eimi, but many English Bible translations properly add “he” so that it can be understood as “I am he” in English.) Nevertheless, Jesus actually identified himself by saying ego eimi in these two verses (unlike his use of them in John 8:58!)

We know that even his disciples didn’t believe Jesus was God simply because he said ego eimi, for he identified himself to them with these very same words at John 6:20 (usually rendered into English as “It is I”), and their reaction was certainly not that of those who had come into the presence of God! - Cf. the parallel Matt. 14:27.

We should also know that the Jews didn't believe it either. Otherwise they would have immediately stoned the ex-blind man who identified himself to the Jews by saying ego eimi: John 9:9.

As for the charge that the Jews were going to stone him because he claimed to be God, we should be aware that the Jews stoned people for many offenses. For example, a person pretending to be a “wizard” was to be stoned to death according to the Law (Lev. 20:27 - KJV, RSV, ASV, LB). Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982 ed., tells us

“Wizard, a pretender to supernatural knowledge and power .... such a one was forbidden on pain of death to practice his deceptions ... Lev. 20:26, 27.” - p. 654.

There are many other capital crimes including false prophecy and Sabbath breaking.
We also know that some of the Jews wanted Jesus killed for blasphemy because he admitted to being the Messiah (Christ) - see Matt 26:59-68 and footnotes for Matt 26:65 and Luke 22:71 in The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

“But powerful forces in the Jewish congregation, jealous of his popularity, incensed by his denunciation of some of them, and bitterly critical of his disregard for formalism, his willingness to violate some of the minor laws of the Jews, and his heretical claim that he was the Son of God, repudiated him, conspired to kill him, saw him crucified, and after his death, persecuted his followers.” - The Portable World Bible, Viking Press, p. 230.

John 8:58

This instance of Jesus saying ego eimi convinced some of the Jews that he was claiming to be the Messiah (so they attempted to stone him to death on the spot). Later, Jesus was taken before the high priest and all the chief priests and questioned by them (Matt. 26:59-66; Mk 14:53-64; Luke 22:66-71).

Now if Jesus had really previously claimed to be God by saying ego eimi (or if the Jews had even thought he might have been making such a claim by saying those words), what questions would they have asked him now that they had him up before the highest Jewish court? Would they have asked “Are you the Christ?”? (Remember the Christ was not believed by the Jews to actually be God himself. - NIVSB f.n. for Mark 14:61.) Wouldn’t they have concentrated on “Do you claim to be God?”?

But what did they actually ask Jesus at this most important Jewish trial where the Jews were actually seeking to find a reason, no matter how false, to kill him? Even though they searched for any and all accusers, even false accusers (Matt. 26 59-60), to give them a reason to kill Jesus, no one accused him of claiming to be God!

“Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus in order that they might put him to death; .... And the high priest said to him, ‘I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.’” - Matt. 26:59, 63, NASB.

C’mon, be honest now! Could any honest person reasonably conclude that Jesus had claimed to be God at John 8:58 and that the deciding question at the Jews’ trial of Jesus would then be “are you the Christ?”

There is absolutely no suggestion that the Jews thought Jesus was calling himself God here! They asked no questions concerning such a thing. This is absolutely impossible if there could have been even a possibility that ego eimi at John 8:58 could mean the speaker was claiming to be God! Remember, this high court was looking for any reason to have Jesus killed!

But if his statement at John 8:58 could mean “I am the Christ,” what would these priests and chief priests have asked him? Just exactly what they did ask him: “Are you the Christ, the Son of God?”

Furthermore notice the reaction when Jesus admitted to being the Messiah: Matt. 26:65, 66!


For more of my study of this scripture see:
Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1

See my post #59.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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I have noticed now from your OP to here you take liberties with meanings and translations of scripture. You conveniently substitute phrases, sayings or names at will. If you are trying to show some serious biblical study, then do as @tigger 2 as done without looking for a desired outcome; and even see some of my older comments on this subject over a few years now and from others. We cannot go about reading into scripture and then adding these things into it to safeguard and ensure that our narratives and theories always get baked the same way for every one to see. Some folks like me can see through this façade of your and others like others before you.

You know you need to marry or piece together all your trinitarian biased interpretations of scriptures to show a Trinity and not just with a few like 1 John 5:7 or John 1:1-3, 18 etc and etc. And you cannot even do it with these scriptures. And then there is the handy and convenient 'I am' that you incorrectly interpret for your Trinity theory and support; there's a difference between the Hebrew and Greek of this phase, and you have conveniently used the Hebrew (Exodus) to translate the Greek that has a completely different meaning as @tigger 2 has clearly covered.

You have to 'force' scripture to mean what you want and not what is really says in translation and context.

Just my opinion as every one have one.

APAK

so why not take some time and show where I am wrong with my Hebrew and Greek. To criticize is cheap, if you have real objections to real issues, then you are free to show them!
 

tsr

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The Bottom Line
If math and psychology don't help explain the Holy Trinity, maybe this will: God is God. He can do anything, be anything, and be everything at every moment of every second of every day. We are people, and our minds can't always understand everything about God. This is why we have things like the Bible and prayer to bring us closer to understanding Him, but we won't know everything as He does. It may not be the cleanest or most satisfying answer to say that we cannot fully understand God, so we need to learn to accept it, but it is part of the answer.


There are so many things to learn about God and His desires for us, that getting caught up on the Holy Trinity and explaining it as something scientific can take us away from the glory of His creation. We need to just remember that He is our God. We need to read the teachings of Jesus. We need to listen to His Spirit talking to our hearts. That is the purpose of the Trinity, and that is the most important thing we need to understand about it.
 
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APAK

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so why not take some time and show where I am wrong with my Hebrew and Greek. To criticize is cheap, if you have real objections to real issues, then you are free to show them!
BGTF: Let me only address 1 John 5:6-8. That would be sufficient to show some context and historical history. You will note that you heavily discuss "In heaven etc....this is a forgery verse, and I will not entertain or even discuss as a serious discussion ....

Anyway here's a short summary of these verses..

1 John 5: Verses 6 and 8
Verse 6: Jesus was born a man and therefore born bathed in water. He also died as any man, although in his shed blood. John was emphasizing that Jesus did die, not naturally. He dies a terrible death by shedding his blood.

Verses 7 and 8 were deliberately altered to promote the Trinity concept during the 16th century. They added in some comments for actual scripture. The closest correct English translation of these verses are “For there are three that bear record, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” The meaning of course was to show that Jesus was born by the Spirit. He was baptized and he shed his blood on the cross. These all three establish Jesus presence while he was on earth.

What the forgers did was to confuse the reader by adding in the words, “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth,”

They wanted to reinforce the false model of their three personalities of God: The Father, the Word, as the Son.

No early and genuine Greek manuscript of scripture before the 14th Century had the heavenly three witnesses in them. In fact, the same can be said for the Latin early text. These forgers only served the interests of the Pope, Roman Catholics and King James of England.

Sources: (Wilson 1865) (The Jerusalem Bible, New Testament 1966) (Wheless 1930) (Erasmus c. 1516) (New International Version (NIV) 1967)

Other sources:

It began with Desiderius Erasmus and his “Novum Instrumentum omne” which was the first New Testament in Greek to be published. This Greek text is also referred to as the Textus Receptus. Erasmus did not include the infamous Comma Johanneum of 1 John 5:7-8 in either his 1516 or 1519 editions of his Greek New Testament with very good reason. But it made its way into his third edition in 1522 because of pressure from the Catholic Church. After his first edition appeared in 1516, there arose such a furor over the absence of the Comma that Erasmus needed to defend himself. He argued that he did not put in the Comma Trinitarian formula because he found no Greek manuscripts that included it. Once one was produced called the Codex 61, that was written by one Roy or Froy at Oxford in c. 1520, he reluctantly agreed to include it in his subsequent editions. Erasmus probably altered the text because of politico-theologico-economic concerns. He did not want his reputation ruined, nor his Novum Instrumentum to go unsold. Thus it passed into the Stephanus Greek New Testament in 1551 (first New Testament in verses), which came to be called the Textus Receptus, and became the basis for the Geneva Bible New Testament in 1557 and the Authorized King James Version in 1611.

Scripture translator Benjamin Wilson gave the following explanation in his “Emphatic Diaglott.” Mr. Wilson says, “This text concerning the heavenly witness is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the fifteenth century. It is not cited by any of the ecclesiastical writers; not by any of early Latin fathers even when the subjects upon which they treated would naturally have led them to appeal to its authority. It is therefore evidently spurious.

I hope you can see what I believe is the truth concerning especially 1 John 5:7

Blessings,

APAK
 
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Taken

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Even non Christian Jewish rabbis saw the trinity in the Hebrew Scriptures, and write about it in the Zohar.

The word ONE in the verse, God is ONE, is a word meaning one in COMPOSITE unity, such as ONE sheet of three layered plywood or ONE cluster of many grapes.

And in Genesis one, ELOHIM speaks - and Elohim is a PLURAL, not singular word for God, which literally means GODS in the Hebrew.

When Elohim says let US make man in OUR image, that plurality is evident.

John 1 takes us back to Genesis 1, when it states that in the BEGINNING was the word, who was both WITH GOD and WAS GOD.

And John 1 proves the word is Jesus, because the WORD made all things, including the world, then was manifest in the flesh, in the world He made, in the first 14 verses.

Thus John 1:1 is in reality stating that in the beginning, Jesus was WITH God, and WAS God.

The triune Godhead is a biblical fact. One God, manifest in three persons.

Shalom.

You seem to think you are trying to convince me Father, Son, Holy Spirit is ONE God.
I have never said otherwise.

What you are trying to convince me to do:
Is to Agree, to use the term THREE PERSONS.

~ ByGraceThroughFaith, also favors the term ( THREE PERSONS ), as do many, and was curious if I favored the term ( MODALISM ).

* I favor NEITHER man-made, and taught, terms.

Col 1:15
[15]...the invisible God...

John 1:18
[18] No... (Earthly)... man hath seen God at any time...

God Himself, Exercising His OWN Power, to "Accomplish" His OWN Will:
OF "communicating" with His OWN creation of "man-KIND" who can NEITHER HEAR Gods Voice, or SEE Gods Form,
WAS;
Established in a "manner" According TO; Gods Will.

* God DID NOT, "manifest THREE PERSONS".

* God was "manifested IN ONE Flesh BODY".
1 Tim 3:
[16] ... God was manifest in the flesh...
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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BGTF: Let me only address 1 John 5:6-8. That would be sufficient to show some context and historical history. You will note that you heavily discuss "In heaven etc....this is a forgery verse, and I will not entertain or even discuss as a serious discussion ....

Anyway here's a short summary of these verses..

1 John 5: Verses 6 and 8
Verse 6: Jesus was born a man and therefore born bathed in water. He also died as any man, although in his shed blood. John was emphasizing that Jesus did die, not naturally. He dies a terrible death by shedding his blood.

Verses 7 and 8 were deliberately altered to promote the Trinity concept during the 16th century. They added in some comments for actual scripture. The closest correct English translation of these verses are “For there are three that bear record, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” The meaning of course was to show that Jesus was born by the Spirit. He was baptized and he shed his blood on the cross. These all three establish Jesus presence while he was on earth.

What the forgers did was to confuse the reader by adding in the words, “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth,”

They wanted to reinforce the false model of their three personalities of God: The Father, the Word, as the Son.

No early and genuine Greek manuscript of scripture before the 14th Century had the heavenly three witnesses in them. In fact, the same can be said for the Latin early text. These forgers only served the interests of the Pope, Roman Catholics and King James of England.

Sources: (Wilson 1865) (The Jerusalem Bible, New Testament 1966) (Wheless 1930) (Erasmus c. 1516) (New International Version (NIV) 1967)

Other sources:

It began with Desiderius Erasmus and his “Novum Instrumentum omne” which was the first New Testament in Greek to be published. This Greek text is also referred to as the Textus Receptus. Erasmus did not include the infamous Comma Johanneum of 1 John 5:7-8 in either his 1516 or 1519 editions of his Greek New Testament with very good reason. But it made its way into his third edition in 1522 because of pressure from the Catholic Church. After his first edition appeared in 1516, there arose such a furor over the absence of the Comma that Erasmus needed to defend himself. He argued that he did not put in the Comma Trinitarian formula because he found no Greek manuscripts that included it. Once one was produced called the Codex 61, that was written by one Roy or Froy at Oxford in c. 1520, he reluctantly agreed to include it in his subsequent editions. Erasmus probably altered the text because of politico-theologico-economic concerns. He did not want his reputation ruined, nor his Novum Instrumentum to go unsold. Thus it passed into the Stephanus Greek New Testament in 1551 (first New Testament in verses), which came to be called the Textus Receptus, and became the basis for the Geneva Bible New Testament in 1557 and the Authorized King James Version in 1611.

Scripture translator Benjamin Wilson gave the following explanation in his “Emphatic Diaglott.” Mr. Wilson says, “This text concerning the heavenly witness is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the fifteenth century. It is not cited by any of the ecclesiastical writers; not by any of early Latin fathers even when the subjects upon which they treated would naturally have led them to appeal to its authority. It is therefore evidently spurious.

I hope you can see what I believe is the truth concerning especially 1 John 5:7

Blessings,

APAK

Mr Wilson's translation is that used by the Jehovah's Witnesses, and is false in many places. Though he does have the English in the right hand, for which he says: "The column on the right hand side of the page is a NEW VERSION for general reading. This rendering is based upon that in the left hand
Column, and the labors of many talented Critics and Translators of the Scriptures. The Readings of the oldest Manuscripts now known are sometimes incorporated, and always referred to." (Introduction), in John 1:1, "and the LOGOS was God". Thereby showing that there are TWO who are EQUALLY called God in John 1:1! In Titus 2:13, Wilson has under the literal Greek text: "waiting for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and savior of us Jesus anointed". And in the right hand, "waiting for the BLESSED Hope, even the appearing of the GLORY of our GREAT GOD and Savior Jesus Christ". Note the emphasis in the capitals, for JESUS! In Hebrews 1:6, God the Father is speaking about Jesus, where Wilson has it, " And when again he shall introduce the FIRSTBORN into the HABITABLE, he says,"And let All " God's Angels worship him.". In verse 7, where the Father is continuing to address Jesus, Wilson has it: "concerning but the son; The throne of thee the God" (under the Greek), and in the right hand, "But to the SON, "Thy THRONE, 0 GOD". In Colossains 2:9, Wilson says, "Because in him dwells All the FULNESS of the DEITY bodily". Looks like Mr Wilson's versions is very clear that Jesus Christ IS God, not "a god", or "god"! Maybe the reasons why they have stopped reprinting this version.

The textual evidence for 1 John 5:7, in both the Greek and Latin, is traced back to Tertullian and Cyprian, as I have shown in the OP. Regardless of the lack of Greek manuscripts, the internal Greek grammar, which is far more important, shows that the disputed words must form part of the Original Letter of John. Without these words, the grammar is incorrect, which is not possible with God's Word!
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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You seem to think you are trying to convince me Father, Son, Holy Spirit is ONE God.
I have never said otherwise.

What you are trying to convince me to do:
Is to Agree, to use the term THREE PERSONS.

~ ByGraceThroughFaith, also favors the term ( THREE PERSONS ), as do many, and was curious if I favored the term ( MODALISM ).

* I favor NEITHER man-made, and taught, terms.

Col 1:15
[15]...the invisible God...

John 1:18
[18] No... (Earthly)... man hath seen God at any time...

God Himself, Exercising His OWN Power, to "Accomplish" His OWN Will:
OF "communicating" with His OWN creation of "man-KIND" who can NEITHER HEAR Gods Voice, or SEE Gods Form,
WAS;
Established in a "manner" According TO; Gods Will.

* God DID NOT, "manifest THREE PERSONS".

* God was "manifested IN ONE Flesh BODY".
1 Tim 3:
[16] ... God was manifest in the flesh...

The facts are very clear. There are Three in the Bible, Who are "distinct" from each other, The Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. To each of These, the Great Name of God, YHWH is clearly used. Apart from the term Trinity, there is not other way to deal with this fact. On the use of "Person", for The Three in the Godhead, this is what is meant:

“Definition of Personality. Personality exists where there is intelligence, mind, will, reason, individuality, self-consciousness, and self-determination. There must be not mere consciousness—for the beast has that—but self-consciousness. Nor is personality determination—for the beast has this, too, even though this determination be the result of influences from without—but self-determination, the power by which man from an act of his own free will determines his acts from within. Neither corporeity nor substance, as we understand these words, are necessarily, if at all, involved in personality. There may be true personality without either or both of these. (William Evans, The Great Doctrines of the Bible, p.22)
 

APAK

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Mr Wilson's translation is that used by the Jehovah's Witnesses, and is false in many places. Though he does have the English in the right hand, for which he says: "The column on the right hand side of the page is a NEW VERSION for general reading. This rendering is based upon that in the left hand
Column, and the labors of many talented Critics and Translators of the Scriptures. The Readings of the oldest Manuscripts now known are sometimes incorporated, and always referred to." (Introduction), in John 1:1, "and the LOGOS was God". Thereby showing that there are TWO who are EQUALLY called God in John 1:1! In Titus 2:13, Wilson has under the literal Greek text: "waiting for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and savior of us Jesus anointed". And in the right hand, "waiting for the BLESSED Hope, even the appearing of the GLORY of our GREAT GOD and Savior Jesus Christ". Note the emphasis in the capitals, for JESUS! In Hebrews 1:6, God the Father is speaking about Jesus, where Wilson has it, " And when again he shall introduce the FIRSTBORN into the HABITABLE, he says,"And let All " God's Angels worship him.". In verse 7, where the Father is continuing to address Jesus, Wilson has it: "concerning but the son; The throne of thee the God" (under the Greek), and in the right hand, "But to the SON, "Thy THRONE, 0 GOD". In Colossains 2:9, Wilson says, "Because in him dwells All the FULNESS of the DEITY bodily". Looks like Mr Wilson's versions is very clear that Jesus Christ IS God, not "a god", or "god"! Maybe the reasons why they have stopped reprinting this version.

The textual evidence for 1 John 5:7, in both the Greek and Latin, is traced back to Tertullian and Cyprian, as I have shown in the OP. Regardless of the lack of Greek manuscripts, the internal Greek grammar, which is far more important, shows that the disputed words must form part of the Original Letter of John. Without these words, the grammar is incorrect, which is not possible with God's Word!

Look, you have not shown anything based on any reliability source that the 'comma' statement beginning with "in heaven..." is scriptural. It was clearly added in the 16th century under political and occupational/livelihood concerns. Tertullian and Cyprian, and for that mater Jerome later, fantasized and were then working on their Trinity arrangement.

Now just look at the context and John words before and after this area of contention. This inserted 'in heaven.." statement stands out as a sore thumb as not fitting in the context at all. It is a Trinitary insertion. John was speaking of Christ and Christ only and via the Spirit of Truth,.as a witness, as with other of his actual presence and his life and ordeals on EARTH. Why add in about heaven as a witness. John was not in heaven to view Christ on earth, as a witness that he existed. That would be nuts, indeed. Now if John spoke of the Father in heaven and not of himself and then proceeds henceforth with a heavenly view point, that would be see appropriate...and in context.

Context is also an important area when viewing and understanding scripture....

Bless you,

APAK
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Look, you have not shown anything based on any reliability source that the 'comma' statement beginning with "in heaven..." is scriptural. It was clearly added in the 16th century under political and occupational/livelihood concerns. Tertullian and Cyprian, and for that mater Jerome later, fantasized and were then working on their Trinity arrangement.

Now just look at the context and John words before and after this area of contention. This inserted 'in heaven.." statement stands out as a sore thumb as not fitting in the context at all. It is a Trinitary insertion. John was speaking of Christ and Christ only and via the Spirit of Truth,.as a witness, as with other of his actual presence and his life and ordeals on EARTH. Why add in about heaven as a witness. John was not in heaven to view Christ on earth, as a witness that he existed. That would be nuts, indeed. Now if John spoke of the Father in heaven and not of himself and then proceeds henceforth with a heavenly view point, that would be see appropriate...and in context.

Context is also an important area when viewing and understanding scripture....

Bless you,

APAK

how about you disproving what I have shown in the OP from the Greek?
 

Taken

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The facts are very clear. There are Three in the Bible, Who are "distinct" from each other, The Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. To each of These, the Great Name of God, YHWH is clearly used.

I covered Three "Distinctions".
(Names, Titles, Descriptions).
Father, is a Title/ & Description.
LORD, is a Title.
Yehweh, is a Name.
Son, is a Title/ & Description.
Lord, is a Title.
Jesus, is a Name.
Christ, is a Title / & Description
Holy, is a Description
Spirit, is a Description

* Man-KIND, (Terrestrial) is a Description (of a BODILY FORMED thing Created "out of the Elements of Earth".
* Man, is a Description (of a BODY ON the Earth), THAT LOOKS LIKE, the BODILY FORM of a man-KIND created thing.

Apart from the term Trinity, there is not other way to deal with this fact. On the use of "Person", for The Three in the Godhead, this is what is meant:

“Definition of Personality. Personality exists where there is intelligence, mind, will, reason, individuality, self-consciousness, and self-determination. There must be not mere consciousness—for the beast has that—but self-consciousness. Nor is personality determination—for the beast has this, too, even though this determination be the result of influences from without—but self-determination, the power by which man from an act of his own free will determines his acts from within. Neither corporeity nor substance, as we understand these words, are necessarily, if at all, involved in personality. There may be true personality without either or both of these. (William Evans, The Great Doctrines of the Bible, p.22)

That sounds very Similar to what "Modalism" attempts to Describe "God".

Scripture itself is Clear, in Names, Titles, Descriptions, Purpose, Intent...
"OF" the Lord God Almighty...AND
(MAN-KIND)
(Who, What, When, Why, Where).

* TRINITY - Stand alone...PERIOD...is a One "WORD" Sufficient and Applicable "Description" OF the Lord God Almighty.
TRI - Three
UNITY - United

* TRINITY - SHIELD ---> "GRAPHIC, SKETCH".
Stand Alone ... PERIOD... was a Sufficient and Applicable "VISUAL"

* MEN for centuries "drew, sketched", the Graphics of Lines, Circles to "represent" their renditions of a "Trinity Shield".

* MEN Decided to ADD WORDS To "their rendition sketches" OF the Trinity Shield.
* The "ADDED WORDS" "3 TIMES" say what "GOD IS NOT"... which is NEVER found IN SCRIPTURE

I have No ISSUE whatsoever WITH the "WORD...TRINITY".

I absolutely "REJECT", the historical Catholic Counsil's Agreement and SKETCH Rendition of "THEIR" ... TRINITY SHIELD ADDED WORDS...
And "REJECT", the USE of "THEIR SHEILD RENDITION with ADDED WORDS" for a TEACHING "METHOD".

The Lord God Almighty "HIMSELF", established a "TEACHING method"... by His OWN Example...
Little Bit BY Little Bit of "KNOWLEDGE" given Terrestrial Man-KIND of BABES (regardless of Age, BUT Expressly TO; an Earthly Terrestrial, Beginning TO HEAR ABOUT the Lord God Almighty).


The Lord God Almighty CERTAINLY HAS REVEALED, Titles, Names, Descriptions that APPLY Expressly TO Himself...
FOR EXPRESS "purposes" and "times".