You don't want to have anything explained to you because I have seen you just arguing against anything that the Bible says about God being The Trinity
The Holy Trinity in 1 John 5:7
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You don't want to have anything explained to you because I have seen you just arguing against anything that the Bible says about God being The Trinity
Cooper
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No, the Bible is true, while man-made explanations, are of man, and not of God.
Why can you not simply accept that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and leave it at that, without adding to, or taking away from Scripture.
As scripture says, "God is All in All."
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The Bible Teaches that God is one in Three Persons Who are co-equal co-essential and co-eternal. The Three being YHWH
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
1 John 5:7 (KJV)
1 John 5:7 (RDB study)
The King James Version (A. D. 1611) says at 1 Jn 5:7: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
Of course even this would not mean the three are the one God as trinitarians want. The word for "one" here is in the neuter form, hen, which cannot mean "one God" since "God" is always in the masculine form in NT Greek, and grammatically adjectives (such as "one") applied to it must also be masculine (heis, masculine form).
NT Greek words meaning "one":
- hen is the neuter form for "one."
- heis is the masculine form for "one."
- mia is the feminine form for "one."
When the neuter "one" (hen) is applied to persons, it means "one thing." In other words they have become united in some thing such as "purpose," "will," etc. That is why Jesus prays to the Father "that they [Jesus' followers] may be one [hen, neuter] just as we are one [hen - neuter]." - Jn 17:22. Jesus, the Father, and Jesus' followers are all one [hen, neuter] in something. Of course they are all united in the Father's will and purpose! - see the study paper ONE.
Even though Christians have one will with Jesus and the Father, it certainly is not their wills which dominate; it is the will of the Father which they make their will also. And Jesus, too, subordinates his will to that of the Father so that, therefore, their will and purpose become one: the Father's alone. ("Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." - Luke 22:42, NIV. cf. Mark 14:36.)
There is no way that Jesus would pray at Jn 17:22 that Christians may be one "just as we (Jesus and the Father) are one" if he were truly God. In that case he would be praying that these Christians become "equally God" with him and the Father!
But even more important is the fact that John did not write the words found at 1 Jn 5:7 in the KJV! And we must consider why trinitarian scholars and copyists felt compelled to add it to the Holy Scriptures.
For the rest of my study of this scripture (which shows the comments of many respected trinitarian scholars and the evidence of the earliest NT manuscripts and writings):
Examining the Trinity: 1 John 5:7 (KJV)
1 John 5:7 (RDB study)
The King James Version (A. D. 1611) says at 1 Jn 5:7: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
Of course even this would not mean the three are the one God as trinitarians want. The word for "one" here is in the neuter form, hen, which cannot mean "one God" since "God" is always in the masculine form in NT Greek, and grammatically adjectives (such as "one") applied to it must also be masculine (heis, masculine form).
NT Greek words meaning "one":
- hen is the neuter form for "one."
- heis is the masculine form for "one."
- mia is the feminine form for "one."
When the neuter "one" (hen) is applied to persons, it means "one thing." In other words they have become united in some thing such as "purpose," "will," etc. That is why Jesus prays to the Father "that they [Jesus' followers] may be one [hen, neuter] just as we are one [hen - neuter]." - Jn 17:22. Jesus, the Father, and Jesus' followers are all one [hen, neuter] in something. Of course they are all united in the Father's will and purpose! - see the study paper ONE.
Even though Christians have one will with Jesus and the Father, it certainly is not their wills which dominate; it is the will of the Father which they make their will also. And Jesus, too, subordinates his will to that of the Father so that, therefore, their will and purpose become one: the Father's alone. ("Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." - Luke 22:42, NIV. cf. Mark 14:36.)
There is no way that Jesus would pray at Jn 17:22 that Christians may be one "just as we (Jesus and the Father) are one" if he were truly God. In that case he would be praying that these Christians become "equally God" with him and the Father!
But even more important is the fact that John did not write the words found at 1 Jn 5:7 in the KJV! And we must consider why trinitarian scholars and copyists felt compelled to add it to the Holy Scriptures.
For the rest of my study of this scripture (which shows the comments of many respected trinitarian scholars and the evidence of the earliest NT manuscripts and writings):
Examining the Trinity: 1 John 5:7 (KJV)
Cooper
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Yes ONE God in three persons.
Do you not understand the simplicity of that?
.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
There is no such verse in all of Scripture that says anything remotely similar to this.
"οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσιν”, literally, These Three Persons (masculine plural), and one thing or nature, netuer singular
Cooper
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Yes. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the ONE omnipresent God in heaven, on earth, and in our hearts, according to the nature of the environment. One omnipresent Tripartite God.
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Hello sir, this is very informative. Thank you for taking time to explain and do this.
My only comment would be this from observation: Using a NJKV myself, and have no problem with anyone in whatever translation they may read from when it comes to the 66 bible books ~ The canonical 66 books which were inspired by men of God, which allowed the old testament, and the new testament to been able to be produced in our hands now that we call the holy bible. ~ Using some helpful bible site like biblehub.com ~ If anyone desires to know a word according the Strongs Concordence ~ Very help word study tool.
Considering what you had said about scholars and people whom copy other peoples work.
My taking to this would be taking on that premise: Humans through out life have been take care of since as a baby. (Every one has) We have all learned from our moms, dads, adopted mom, dad, even kids on the street (learned from someone) when they were around them.
We watch and observe we are also taught. Taught ways that explain how to think, how to behave, how to talk, how to eat, how to be around others, how to be around others at work, how to be around the house, what do, what to say, how not to act, and so on.
So even this whole debacle of trinity ~ including that of doctrines of men, and statement of faiths and whatever a church might require from you if you sign up to be a member.
I personally use to believe in the trinity. Though the doctrine itself ripped my heart away, and made me into a person who was mean towards, other even looking down at others because of my first coming to faith. My heart still was not right with God.
Left searching for the trinity after my personal teacher whom was learned from on my end of the rope of life - Had made many points using scriptures, while also the people there at the 2014 Inquisition. Here is that video if anyone is interesting.
Shawn in end up making this show here; and had three men come and present their views about the term trinity. Then Shawn presents His view.
It really to me just shows a lot of the human nature of human beings and how we are. Because it really does show how divide people can be over things, rather than encourage, love, and support one another.
The trinity is a doctrine, and you can easily make it a doctrine by few scriptures in the bible. You can become dogmatic with this view, even to the point that if you do not believe that Jesus is God you are not a Christian.
Who has the right to say that to anyone, just because they do not submit to the demands of a human being, who sees their way is right? How is that loving, towards anyone?
Just some questions for reads to question in their hearts.
God bless and may God give the increase.
In John 8.24 Jesus says that if you don't believe that He is YHWH you will die in your sins and not go to heaven
Hello ByGraceThroughFaith
Please consider what you may find here.
Please read slowly and carefully what you are seeing.
Thank you very much sir.
Who was Jesus? The expressed image of God. Who is He? He is the image of the invisible God. If you have seen Jesus ~ You have seen the Father though you do not see Him.
That is the message you will find a lot of in Johns book. Seeing is believing. Those who believed and not seen. Doubting Thomas, My Lord and My God.
John 14:9 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Philip; do you still not know me? Even after I have been among you for such a long time.
Anyone who has seen me
has seen the Father (who is invisible: God is invisible ~ God is Spirit ~ God is Love ~ God is Consuming Fire)
Are you seeing what case is being made here?
Jesus Christ IS YHWH. Not in any way inferior to the Father as Almighty God. He is distinct to the Father and Holy Spirit
Okay.
Thank you for considering for what was written,
Hope that you enjoy the rest of your day.
Thank you for considering for what was written,
Hope that you enjoy the rest of your day.
You are right about this. Jesus Christ is most supreme over everything :) Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Both DIVIDE, God, in attempting to Describe God.
One Dividing is By Gods Atributes.
One Dividing God into 3 Persons.
God is not Divided, any more than ONE man is Divided.
I highly doubt YOUR Name of YOUR person, (BODY), is "ByGraceThroughFaith", but you have chosen ^ that Name for "your WORD", on this forum.
And most likely YOU answer to a whole HOST of other NAMES, titles, and descriptions...
Mrs., Ms, Teacher, Boss, maid, cook, Employer, Employee, Neighbor, Cindy, Honey, Sweetheart, Friend, Neighbor, Mother, Mom, etc. etc.
God is no less ABLE than an Earthly man, and God Himself Establishes....NAMES, TITLES, DESCRIPTIONS, "FOR His ""ONE'"self.
* And Those Names, Titles, Descriptions function for the Purpose, (no different than for a man)....It Establishes "context".
When a man Thinks, forms opinions, Has Ideas, is Logically weighing between this and that; that is notice of a mans MIND'S operation.
When a man Opens his mouth, and speaks his word: that is notice of a mans "THOUGHTS" being revealed.
When a mans Ideas, thoughts come into Fruition, it is By a man Physical WILL - POWER of muscles Operating.
When a mans "HEARTS" thoughts AND "MINDS" thoughts "CONFLICT/
COUNTERACT"...that man has INTERNAL Conflict, (which medically men call by all kinds of things, as Mental Illness and Depression).
Gods THOUGHTS...NEVER "Conflict".
Gods WORD...IS ALWAYS TRUE.
Gods POWER...IS His PURE LIGHT, "His Glory"
God, LORD, Lord, Master, King, Father, Son, Spirit, Holy, Yahweh, Messiah, Jehovah, Word, Jesus, Christ, etc.
"Names, Titles, Descriptions"... "OF" the Same ONE God. <--- THAT IS Biblical.
Glory to God,
Taken
That Jesus is God the son, and not just the only begotten son of God, is indeed in the scriptures - however all the salvational passages state that belief that Jesus is the son of God, is the criteria for salvation.
That’s because Jesus didn’t walk the earth as God, but as the son of man, come to die for our sins - thus He didn’t go around confusing those who He preached to, by constantly claiming to be God - He made just a few proclamations of His divinity, and made only one I AM declaration, not two.
In one passage, Jesus states He is the messiah, and goes on to say, unless you believe I am He (the messiah) you will die in your sins.
That’s not making an I AM declaration there, but He does make that clear declaration when He said, before Abraham was, I AM.
Also Romans 10 doesn’t require confessing that Jesus is God, because unlike the OT where they write LORD in all caps where the Hebrew text says YHWH: in Romans 10, LORD is kurious in the Greek, which means Master, not Theos nor YHWH.
Shalom.
That’s because Jesus didn’t walk the earth as God, but as the son of man, come to die for our sins - thus He didn’t go around confusing those who He preached to, by constantly claiming to be God - He made just a few proclamations of His divinity, and made only one I AM declaration, not two.
In one passage, Jesus states He is the messiah, and goes on to say, unless you believe I am He (the messiah) you will die in your sins.
That’s not making an I AM declaration there, but He does make that clear declaration when He said, before Abraham was, I AM.
Also Romans 10 doesn’t require confessing that Jesus is God, because unlike the OT where they write LORD in all caps where the Hebrew text says YHWH: in Romans 10, LORD is kurious in the Greek, which means Master, not Theos nor YHWH.
Shalom.
Even non Christian Jewish rabbis saw the trinity in the Hebrew Scriptures, and write about it in the Zohar.
The word ONE in the verse, God is ONE, is a word meaning one in COMPOSITE unity, such as ONE sheet of three layered plywood or ONE cluster of many grapes.
And in Genesis one, ELOHIM speaks - and Elohim is a PLURAL, not singular word for God, which literally means GODS in the Hebrew.
When Elohim says let US make man in OUR image, that plurality is evident.
John 1 takes us back to Genesis 1, when it states that in the BEGINNING was the word, who was both WITH GOD and WAS GOD.
And John 1 proves the word is Jesus, because the WORD made all things, including the world, then was manifest in the flesh, in the world He made, in the first 14 verses.
Thus John 1:1 is in reality stating that in the beginning, Jesus was WITH God, and WAS God.
The triune Godhead is a biblical fact. One God, manifest in three persons.
Shalom.
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
Some trinitarians claim that Jesus was declaring himself to be Jehovah God because he said “I AM” (ego eimi [ἐγὼ εἰμί] in the original NT Greek) at John 8:58.
Their reasoning goes like this: Exodus 3:14 in some English Bible translations has Jehovah God revealing himself as “I AM WHO I AM” and “I AM.” So, they say, Jesus’ statement at John 8:58 shows him revealing himself by the same exclusive title (name? description?) as Jehovah (“I AM” at Exodus 3:14) and, therefore, he is Jehovah God!
Furthermore, some of these trinitarians say, the Jews understood perfectly that Jesus was claiming to be Jehovah when he used those two words because they immediately took up stones to kill him.
But these Jews of Judea had already decided beforehand to kill Jesus! (John 7:1, 25) They needed no further incentives. Nothing that Jesus said or did at this point would have made any difference to them.
If the Jews had really understood the phrase “I AM” (ego eimi) to mean the speaker was claiming to be Jehovah and that they should therefore kill him, they would have immediately stoned Jesus at John 8:24 or :28. (The actual Greek in the ancient Bible manuscripts is identical to John 8:58, ego eimi, but many English Bible translations properly add “he” so that it can be understood as “I am he” in English.) Nevertheless, Jesus actually identified himself by saying ego eimi in these two verses (unlike his use of them in John 8:58!)
We know that even his disciples didn’t believe Jesus was God simply because he said ego eimi, for he identified himself to them with these very same words at John 6:20 (usually rendered into English as “It is I”), and their reaction was certainly not that of those who had come into the presence of God! - Cf. the parallel Matt. 14:27.
We should also know that the Jews didn't believe it either. Otherwise they would have immediately stoned the ex-blind man who identified himself to the Jews by saying ego eimi: John 9:9.
As for the charge that the Jews were going to stone him because he claimed to be God, we should be aware that the Jews stoned people for many offenses. For example, a person pretending to be a “wizard” was to be stoned to death according to the Law (Lev. 20:27 - KJV, RSV, ASV, LB). Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982 ed., tells us
“Wizard, a pretender to supernatural knowledge and power .... such a one was forbidden on pain of death to practice his deceptions ... Lev. 20:26, 27.” - p. 654.
There are many other capital crimes including false prophecy and Sabbath breaking.
We also know that some of the Jews wanted Jesus killed for blasphemy because he admitted to being the Messiah (Christ) - see Matt 26:59-68 and footnotes for Matt 26:65 and Luke 22:71 in The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan Publ., 1985.
“But powerful forces in the Jewish congregation, jealous of his popularity, incensed by his denunciation of some of them, and bitterly critical of his disregard for formalism, his willingness to violate some of the minor laws of the Jews, and his heretical claim that he was the Son of God, repudiated him, conspired to kill him, saw him crucified, and after his death, persecuted his followers.” - The Portable World Bible, Viking Press, p. 230.
John 8:58
This instance of Jesus saying ego eimi convinced some of the Jews that he was claiming to be the Messiah (so they attempted to stone him to death on the spot). Later, Jesus was taken before the high priest and all the chief priests and questioned by them (Matt. 26:59-66; Mk 14:53-64; Luke 22:66-71).
Now if Jesus had really previously claimed to be God by saying ego eimi (or if the Jews had even thought he might have been making such a claim by saying those words), what questions would they have asked him now that they had him up before the highest Jewish court? Would they have asked “Are you the Christ?”? (Remember the Christ was not believed by the Jews to actually be God himself. - NIVSB f.n. for Mark 14:61.) Wouldn’t they have concentrated on “Do you claim to be God?”?
But what did they actually ask Jesus at this most important Jewish trial where the Jews were actually seeking to find a reason, no matter how false, to kill him? Even though they searched for any and all accusers, even false accusers (Matt. 26 59-60), to give them a reason to kill Jesus, no one accused him of claiming to be God!
“Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus in order that they might put him to death; .... And the high priest said to him, ‘I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.’” - Matt. 26:59, 63, NASB.
C’mon, be honest now! Could any honest person reasonably conclude that Jesus had claimed to be God at John 8:58 and that the deciding question at the Jews’ trial of Jesus would then be “are you the Christ?”
There is absolutely no suggestion that the Jews thought Jesus was calling himself God here! They asked no questions concerning such a thing. This is absolutely impossible if there could have been even a possibility that ego eimi at John 8:58 could mean the speaker was claiming to be God! Remember, this high court was looking for any reason to have Jesus killed!
But if his statement at John 8:58 could mean “I am the Christ,” what would these priests and chief priests have asked him? Just exactly what they did ask him: “Are you the Christ, the Son of God?”
Furthermore notice the reaction when Jesus admitted to being the Messiah: Matt. 26:65, 66!
For more of my study of this scripture see:
Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1
Their reasoning goes like this: Exodus 3:14 in some English Bible translations has Jehovah God revealing himself as “I AM WHO I AM” and “I AM.” So, they say, Jesus’ statement at John 8:58 shows him revealing himself by the same exclusive title (name? description?) as Jehovah (“I AM” at Exodus 3:14) and, therefore, he is Jehovah God!
Furthermore, some of these trinitarians say, the Jews understood perfectly that Jesus was claiming to be Jehovah when he used those two words because they immediately took up stones to kill him.
But these Jews of Judea had already decided beforehand to kill Jesus! (John 7:1, 25) They needed no further incentives. Nothing that Jesus said or did at this point would have made any difference to them.
If the Jews had really understood the phrase “I AM” (ego eimi) to mean the speaker was claiming to be Jehovah and that they should therefore kill him, they would have immediately stoned Jesus at John 8:24 or :28. (The actual Greek in the ancient Bible manuscripts is identical to John 8:58, ego eimi, but many English Bible translations properly add “he” so that it can be understood as “I am he” in English.) Nevertheless, Jesus actually identified himself by saying ego eimi in these two verses (unlike his use of them in John 8:58!)
We know that even his disciples didn’t believe Jesus was God simply because he said ego eimi, for he identified himself to them with these very same words at John 6:20 (usually rendered into English as “It is I”), and their reaction was certainly not that of those who had come into the presence of God! - Cf. the parallel Matt. 14:27.
We should also know that the Jews didn't believe it either. Otherwise they would have immediately stoned the ex-blind man who identified himself to the Jews by saying ego eimi: John 9:9.
As for the charge that the Jews were going to stone him because he claimed to be God, we should be aware that the Jews stoned people for many offenses. For example, a person pretending to be a “wizard” was to be stoned to death according to the Law (Lev. 20:27 - KJV, RSV, ASV, LB). Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982 ed., tells us
“Wizard, a pretender to supernatural knowledge and power .... such a one was forbidden on pain of death to practice his deceptions ... Lev. 20:26, 27.” - p. 654.
There are many other capital crimes including false prophecy and Sabbath breaking.
We also know that some of the Jews wanted Jesus killed for blasphemy because he admitted to being the Messiah (Christ) - see Matt 26:59-68 and footnotes for Matt 26:65 and Luke 22:71 in The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan Publ., 1985.
“But powerful forces in the Jewish congregation, jealous of his popularity, incensed by his denunciation of some of them, and bitterly critical of his disregard for formalism, his willingness to violate some of the minor laws of the Jews, and his heretical claim that he was the Son of God, repudiated him, conspired to kill him, saw him crucified, and after his death, persecuted his followers.” - The Portable World Bible, Viking Press, p. 230.
John 8:58
This instance of Jesus saying ego eimi convinced some of the Jews that he was claiming to be the Messiah (so they attempted to stone him to death on the spot). Later, Jesus was taken before the high priest and all the chief priests and questioned by them (Matt. 26:59-66; Mk 14:53-64; Luke 22:66-71).
Now if Jesus had really previously claimed to be God by saying ego eimi (or if the Jews had even thought he might have been making such a claim by saying those words), what questions would they have asked him now that they had him up before the highest Jewish court? Would they have asked “Are you the Christ?”? (Remember the Christ was not believed by the Jews to actually be God himself. - NIVSB f.n. for Mark 14:61.) Wouldn’t they have concentrated on “Do you claim to be God?”?
But what did they actually ask Jesus at this most important Jewish trial where the Jews were actually seeking to find a reason, no matter how false, to kill him? Even though they searched for any and all accusers, even false accusers (Matt. 26 59-60), to give them a reason to kill Jesus, no one accused him of claiming to be God!
“Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus in order that they might put him to death; .... And the high priest said to him, ‘I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.’” - Matt. 26:59, 63, NASB.
C’mon, be honest now! Could any honest person reasonably conclude that Jesus had claimed to be God at John 8:58 and that the deciding question at the Jews’ trial of Jesus would then be “are you the Christ?”
There is absolutely no suggestion that the Jews thought Jesus was calling himself God here! They asked no questions concerning such a thing. This is absolutely impossible if there could have been even a possibility that ego eimi at John 8:58 could mean the speaker was claiming to be God! Remember, this high court was looking for any reason to have Jesus killed!
But if his statement at John 8:58 could mean “I am the Christ,” what would these priests and chief priests have asked him? Just exactly what they did ask him: “Are you the Christ, the Son of God?”
Furthermore notice the reaction when Jesus admitted to being the Messiah: Matt. 26:65, 66!
For more of my study of this scripture see:
Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1
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