tomwebster
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The House of Israel
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Really, They weren't from Jacobs sons? you and veteran must get along well together.
tomwebster
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Correct, the Pharisees and Sadducees weren't from Jacob. They were from another family that moved into the land of Judah and after a while called themselves Jews. It's in Scripture, have you not read it?
Oh sure.its a well known fact that the scribes and Pharisees were not Jews. At least in yours and veterans secret office of knowledge anyway.
That's what happens with those who refuse study in ALL of God's Word.
Bud02, the reason Tom and I agree on this is he and I have studied the Old Testament with its history. That's the only way he could know of it.
You'll find a lot of Christian scholars that agree with Tom and I on this too.
So that has to mean you have NOT studied it, and your ideas on it are really coming from where?
But I'm starting to think a little like you are beginning to realize there actually IS a lot written in God's Word about it, but you refuse to believe it from God's Word as written, in order to believe... what instead or who instead?
The scribes John the Baptist addressed...
1 Chr 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
(KJV)
And who were the Kenites per God's Word?...
Gen 15:18-21
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
(KJV)
The Kenites were a different people that dwelt among those nations of Canaan, even before Abraham had Isaac, and thus prior to the children of Israel even existing.
Ezra 2:43-62
43 The Nethinims: the children of Ziha, the children of Hasupha, the children of Tabbaoth,
44 The children of Keros, the children of Siaha, the children of Padon,
45 The children of Lebanah, the children of Hagabah, the children of Akkub,
46 The children of Hagab, the children of Shalmai, the children of Hanan,
47 The children of Giddel, the children of Gahar, the children of Reaiah,
48 The children of Rezin, the children of Nekoda, the children of Gazzam,
49 The children of Uzza, the children of Paseah, the children of Besai,
50 The children of Asnah, the children of Mehunim, the children of Nephusim,
51 The children of Bakbuk, the children of Hakupha, the children of Harhur,
52 The children of Bazluth, the children of Mehida, the children of Harsha,
53 The children of Barkos, the children of Sisera, the children of Thamah,
54 The children of Neziah, the children of Hatipha.
55 The children of Solomon's servants: the children of Sotai, the children of Sophereth, the children of Peruda,
56 The children of Jaalah, the children of Darkon, the children of Giddel,
57 The children of Shephatiah, the children of Hattil, the children of Pochereth of Zebaim, the children of Ami.
58 All the Nethinims, and the children of Solomon's servants, were three hundred ninety and two.
59 And these were they which went up from Telmelah, Telharsa, Cherub, Addan, and Immer: but they could not shew their father's house, and their seed, whether they were of Israel:
60 The children of Delaiah, the children of Tobiah, the children of Nekoda, six hundred fifty and two.
61 And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:
62 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
(KJV)
Nethinims were temple slaves, assigned duties by the Levites. They were left-overs from the nations of Canaan which Israel was not fully able to destroy (Judges 2 & 3; Joshua 9; 1 Kings 9). They continued to Solomon's days, and became temple servants.
I King 9:20-22
20 And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,
21 Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day.
22 But of the children of Israel did Solomon make no bondmen: but they were men of war, and his servants, and his princes, and his captains, and rulers of his chariots, and his horsemen.
(KJV)
Neh 10:28-29
28 And the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the porters, the singers, the Nethinims, and all they that had separated themselves from the people of the lands unto the law of God, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, every one having knowledge, and having understanding;
29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and His judgments and His statutes;
(KJV)
The Nethinim foreigners soon joined in with the chiefs of the people.
Neh 11:18-21
18 All the Levites in the holy city were two hundred fourscore and four.
19 Moreover the porters, Akkub, Talmon, and their brethren that kept the gates, were an hundred seventy and two.
20 And the residue of Israel, of the priests, and the Levites, were in all the cities of Judah, every one in his inheritance.
21 But the Nethinims dwelt in Ophel: and Ziha and Gispa were over the Nethinims.
(KJV)
Ophel was right in the city of David, right near David's palace.
That is how Israel's priesthood became corrupted in preparation for the time of Christ's first coming to die on the cross. That problem of creeping in began in Canaan, and especially during Judah's captivity to Babylon. That's when the Babylonian Talmud was written, which is what Phariseeism is all about, even today. Those scribes and Nethinims together caused that, but God allowed it because of how Israel had disobeyed Him in getting rid of the peoples of Canaan that were guilt of all sorts of false worship and abominations (Judges 2 & 3).
Judg 2:1-3
1 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you.
2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed My voice: why have ye done this?
3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
(KJV)
Judg 2:11
11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:
(KJV)
Judg 2:20-23
20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, Because that this people hath transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto My voice;
21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered He them into the hand of Joshua.
(KJV)
That's Bible history 101. How is it that you missed all that?
Bud02, the reason Tom and I agree on this is he and I have studied the Old Testament with its history. That's the only way he could know of it.
You'll find a lot of Christian scholars that agree with Tom and I on this too.
So that has to mean you have NOT studied it, and your ideas on it are really coming from where?
But I'm starting to think a little like you are beginning to realize there actually IS a lot written in God's Word about it, but you refuse to believe it from God's Word as written, in order to believe... what instead or who instead?
The scribes John the Baptist addressed...
1 Chr 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
(KJV)
And who were the Kenites per God's Word?...
Gen 15:18-21
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
(KJV)
The Kenites were a different people that dwelt among those nations of Canaan, even before Abraham had Isaac, and thus prior to the children of Israel even existing.
Ezra 2:43-62
43 The Nethinims: the children of Ziha, the children of Hasupha, the children of Tabbaoth,
44 The children of Keros, the children of Siaha, the children of Padon,
45 The children of Lebanah, the children of Hagabah, the children of Akkub,
46 The children of Hagab, the children of Shalmai, the children of Hanan,
47 The children of Giddel, the children of Gahar, the children of Reaiah,
48 The children of Rezin, the children of Nekoda, the children of Gazzam,
49 The children of Uzza, the children of Paseah, the children of Besai,
50 The children of Asnah, the children of Mehunim, the children of Nephusim,
51 The children of Bakbuk, the children of Hakupha, the children of Harhur,
52 The children of Bazluth, the children of Mehida, the children of Harsha,
53 The children of Barkos, the children of Sisera, the children of Thamah,
54 The children of Neziah, the children of Hatipha.
55 The children of Solomon's servants: the children of Sotai, the children of Sophereth, the children of Peruda,
56 The children of Jaalah, the children of Darkon, the children of Giddel,
57 The children of Shephatiah, the children of Hattil, the children of Pochereth of Zebaim, the children of Ami.
58 All the Nethinims, and the children of Solomon's servants, were three hundred ninety and two.
59 And these were they which went up from Telmelah, Telharsa, Cherub, Addan, and Immer: but they could not shew their father's house, and their seed, whether they were of Israel:
60 The children of Delaiah, the children of Tobiah, the children of Nekoda, six hundred fifty and two.
61 And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:
62 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
(KJV)
Nethinims were temple slaves, assigned duties by the Levites. They were left-overs from the nations of Canaan which Israel was not fully able to destroy (Judges 2 & 3; Joshua 9; 1 Kings 9). They continued to Solomon's days, and became temple servants.
I King 9:20-22
20 And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,
21 Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day.
22 But of the children of Israel did Solomon make no bondmen: but they were men of war, and his servants, and his princes, and his captains, and rulers of his chariots, and his horsemen.
(KJV)
Neh 10:28-29
28 And the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the porters, the singers, the Nethinims, and all they that had separated themselves from the people of the lands unto the law of God, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, every one having knowledge, and having understanding;
29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and His judgments and His statutes;
(KJV)
The Nethinim foreigners soon joined in with the chiefs of the people.
Neh 11:18-21
18 All the Levites in the holy city were two hundred fourscore and four.
19 Moreover the porters, Akkub, Talmon, and their brethren that kept the gates, were an hundred seventy and two.
20 And the residue of Israel, of the priests, and the Levites, were in all the cities of Judah, every one in his inheritance.
21 But the Nethinims dwelt in Ophel: and Ziha and Gispa were over the Nethinims.
(KJV)
Ophel was right in the city of David, right near David's palace.
That is how Israel's priesthood became corrupted in preparation for the time of Christ's first coming to die on the cross. That problem of creeping in began in Canaan, and especially during Judah's captivity to Babylon. That's when the Babylonian Talmud was written, which is what Phariseeism is all about, even today. Those scribes and Nethinims together caused that, but God allowed it because of how Israel had disobeyed Him in getting rid of the peoples of Canaan that were guilt of all sorts of false worship and abominations (Judges 2 & 3).
Judg 2:1-3
1 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you.
2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed My voice: why have ye done this?
3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
(KJV)
Judg 2:11
11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:
(KJV)
Judg 2:20-23
20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, Because that this people hath transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto My voice;
21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered He them into the hand of Joshua.
(KJV)
That's Bible history 101. How is it that you missed all that?
Both John the Baptist and Jesus acknowledged that they were sons of Abraham in more than one verse.
Abraham's Seed and Satan's
[37] “I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. [38] “I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with * your father.” [39] They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. [40] “But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. [41] “You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.” [42] Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. [43] “Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. [44] “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. [45] “But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. [46] “Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? [47] “He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
Before Abraham Was, I AM
[48] Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?” [49] Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. [50] “And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. [51] “Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.” [52] Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ [53] “Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?” [54] Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your * God. [55] “Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. [56] “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” [57] Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” [58] Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” [59] Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, * going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
[37] “I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. [38] “I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with * your father.” [39] They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. [40] “But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. [41] “You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.” [42] Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. [43] “Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. [44] “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. [45] “But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. [46] “Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? [47] “He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
Before Abraham Was, I AM
[48] Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?” [49] Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. [50] “And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. [51] “Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.” [52] Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ [53] “Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?” [54] Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your * God. [55] “Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. [56] “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” [57] Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” [58] Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” [59] Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, * going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Of course John the Baptist and our Lord Jesus were true descendents of Abraham, who was a Hebrew (from Eber).
But I wasn't talking about them. I'm talking about peoples of Canaan that were in the land before Israel was led out of Egypt by God through Moses, and then into the lands of Canaan by Joshua. It's peoples of those Canaanites that made up the later scribes and Nethinims as written. And that's how Israel's priesthood got corrupted after the 70 years Babylon captivity. The Jewish historian Josephus even revealed how Idumeans of Esau crept into the office of chief priest to Israel in the era between the 2nd temple and our Lord Jesus' first coming.
I've already shown with the Old Testament Scripture that those scribes and Nethinims crept in among Israel were foreigners of the nations of Canaan; that's why our Lord Jesus would say that if they were Abraham's children they wouldn't seek to kill Him. But of course the Jews today would rather that Bible history be left out of our understanding, for it shows how God allowed the creeping in not just among the ten tribes, but among them too. Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned us about that creeping in.
This is why God would say the following about the time after Christ's return and His Sanctuary to be manifested on earth in the future Milennium...
Zech 14:21
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
(KJV)
He probably said what He said because He meant what He said.
Who are we to deny the very fulfillment of His statement regarding His mission of being sent to the "lost sheep of Israel"?
Perhaps the big question is: If we were to receive an account or record someday of His visit and teachings to the seed of Joseph and the other ten tribes of Israel, would we have the faith to believe and accept those records that may become available in fulfillment of Christ's clear statement?
I think that a careful search of the scriptures will indicate that the tribe of Judah and Joseph will be disbursed among the nations and will also be gathered in the latter days.
A further search may reveal that is not the case with the ten lost tribes of Israel. In fact it appears that their renewed presence as they return from wherever the Lord has sent them will be of a miraculous and profound nature.
Do the scriptures indicate in any way a possible location where the Lord has sent them?
Were this not so, then why would it be revealed that a "great highway would be cast up in the midst of the great deep" , for their return?
It is prophesied that they shall return from the land of the north. I do not think any can show the fulfillment of this.
The scriptures are clear that there will be 12,000 chosen and sealed up from each of the twelve tribes.
How could they even be identified except by divine revelation?
Has this divine sealing power been given to someone in the latter days that the 144,000 may be sealed up to God?
Can this be any other power than that which was given to Peter, which allowed him to "bind on earth and in heaven?
Why, how, and in what manner will it be fulfilled that their enemies will be a prey to them?
By this date their posterity may number in the millions.
To what land will they return?
If they were to return to the land where you live, would you welcome them and be prepared to help and feed them until they could establish and integrate themselves into a productive society?
Dear Paul,
I agree that they may be lost to us, but not to God.
I think it would be well to remember that not only Judah's descendants have maintained their identity over a very long period of time, but the other 11 tribes will know their identity if they are prepared.
Perhaps the big question is "Are we prepared for their return out of the North country?"
I agree that they may be lost to us, but not to God.
I think it would be well to remember that not only Judah's descendants have maintained their identity over a very long period of time, but the other 11 tribes will know their identity if they are prepared.
Perhaps the big question is "Are we prepared for their return out of the North country?"
And Me too! This is the greatest mystery ever in the scriptures, imo.
And would you believe Christ himself said they were of Cain's seed, they were of the devil, the Father of lies who was a murderer from the beginning and responsible for murdering all the prophets that Yhwh had sent starting with Abel.
Even Wiki list Edom as moving into Hebron when Judah was taken captive by Babylon.
Remember that old Herod who sent out a decree to kill all new born babies? He was an Idumean JEW who ruled the land.
nowhere will you find the anything that says Jesus was a Jew. The book of Macrabees tells about John Hyrcanus fighting and killing JEWs in Edom.
Then he stopped and started converting them to Hebraism, thought they just went along in order to live.
They took over Judea and ruled. When Judah went in to Babylon captivity more Edomite Jews poured into Judea..
Last night I had a long post on this subject, it took a half hour or more to write out and when I hit submit, the server quit responding and poof it was all gone.
I will prove according to scripture without a doubt that Jews are a distinct group of people from Judah.
And that is one reason Christ told Paul to get out of Jerusalem that would not accept the gospel. They were the children of the adversary and they killed Christ. Someone had to do it, for it was written.
Act 22:17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
Act 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me. !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Christ had told his disciples to go to the lost tribes of Israel.
He also said he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
2Ki 17:24 And the king of Assyria brought men from Babylon, and from Cuthah, and from Ava, and from Hamath, and from Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria instead of the children of Israel: and they possessed Samaria, and dwelt in the cities thereof.
The places they came from were some of the exact location that the Lost sheep were taken too.
Assyria was allies with the Jews of Judea. And Babylon was allies against JEWs and set the Lost tribes of Assyria free.
The lost sheep went Northwest below and above the Black Sea area. see 1 peter
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
These people call themselves Sephardic Jews today. They were hated by Jews of Judea then and not well liked by them today..
Read and study 2nd Kings 16.
Ahaz was son of David who ruled Jerusalem and Judea for 16 years.
Syria went down and ran the JEWS out of Elath ( called Eilat today) on the Red Sea in southern most portion of Edom.
You'll find that JEWs have taken most of Israel of old and most of Edom all the way down to Eilat their old home.
It's proof positive of two distinct groups of people.
Judah and JEWs.
