The interpretation of Phil 2: 1 -11 - in proper context and theme

[ProDeo]

Let me answer your post in full as you obviously do not understand the scripture you listed, when I get around to it, soon. I hope you might ponder on it and consider its value.

Okay, I will wait.

But you definitely started the wrong way by saying Jesus did not preexist.

 

[JustMe]

This is a repeat of post #10, but I'll expound.

2. The pre-existence of Jesus. John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.


Then in John 1 if shows that it was Jesus who took part with the Father to create everything.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Do you comprehend that Jesus is the Word, and the Word was God?

How about "I AM"?

Jesus announced that He was God to the Pharisees when He said, "before Abraham was, I AM." The Pharisees immediately recognized what you can't. That Jesus was claiming to be God by using the name of God. "I AM." Otherwise, why did the Pharisees pick up stones to stone Him?

Exodus 3:

13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” 15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

You have several things going on again in your post. It would be sensible to just look at one, one area of scripture at a time don't you think?

Just look at John 1:1-2 for example. I've asked you to explain this and other areas of scripture and you have not done so thus far. You must believe this scripture does not need any explanation as it must be obvious to the casual observer. And I say it is not obvious at all, especially based on what I believe is your engrained belief system in theology.

By now you would have thought I wanted to read your logic or rationale for believing in what you do in say and read of the passage of John 1:1-2. And that is what I've been trying to get from you.

Just stating scripture does not work for any serious student of the Bible. There is no hidden mental collective understanding to be had by just listing the chapter and verse or even writing them out now is there. You have to explain your reasons for believing what is says to an audience.

So, let me help you along a bit. Some simple logic as to why Yeshua cannot possibliy be the word or logos in its original setting in verses John 1:1-2.

You asked me: "Do you comprehend that Jesus is the Word, and the Word was God?"

And the answer is clearly no, for sound, good and obvious reasons even without getting into detail at this point.

Just read the words of this passage again, and of course you must be guided in understanding by what your engrained beliefs about God and Yeshua have taught you. This is your bias and also your obstacle to the truth.

If the word, as you claim means Yeshua, and you believe he was God and is God, then why was he with God that also means with or besides himself then in the beginning? It makes no sense that your God, the Son was with God, who is also God, I guess of all two or three persons present. And that is what I surmise you actually read and believe.

It reads as nonsense now doesnt it.

Can you then explain this chaotic illogic (verse 2) that most would believe is clear as mud, because you beleive, this word = God (the Son) = God and was with God (2 or 3 persons) in the beginning.

I do not think John had this impossible chaotic reasoning and meaning in mind, to utterly confuse his local audience...no one would listen to his if John thought the word was Yeshua and was God the Son and also he was with himself, him being the same God, in the beginning.

No, it means something much simple and different as I outlined my explanation in one of my other threads.

So can you even explain John 1: 2 in your own words if you had to explain it to an audience?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

If the word, as you claim means Yeshua, and you believe he was God and is God, then why was he with God that also means with or besides himself then in the beginning? It makes no sense that your God, the Son was with God, who is also God, I guess of all two or three persons present. And that is what I surmise you actually read and believe.

Can you then explain this chaotic illogic (verse 2) that most would believe is clear as mud, because you beleive, this word = God (the Son) = God and was with God (2 or 3 persons) in the beginning.

I do not think John had this impossible chaotic reasoning and meaning in mind, to utterly confuse his local audience...no one would listen to his if John thought the word was Yeshua and was God the Son and also he was with himself, him being the same God, in the beginning.

No, it means something much simple and different as I outlined my explanation in one of my other threads.

So can you even explain John 1: 2 in your own words if you had to explain it to an audience?

You made some wrong assumptions of what I believe. I do not believe God is three persons. I'm not a Trinitarian as you may have noticed, or not.

God is one person, and all of His parts are God. Just like I am one person and my spirit, soul and body are all parts of that one person.

Just verses one and two alone do not show the whole picture without verse 14. But verse 2 does declare that the Word is God. You have to read verse 14 to see that the Word is Jesus.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Let me know when you want to talk about the I AM.

 

[Lambano]

This image of God that his Son possessed is really his mental image for his Son, based on the Father's logos/word that he possessed and carried with him as the Messiah of God. There is no hint of him being the same essence as his father, who is God. That is a stretch.

Your expression "his mental image for his Son" brings to mind what is called in Platonic Idealism the "Ideal Forms", which are said to exist in Heaven and are poorly reflected here on earth.

The very language of Son-ship connotates the same essence as the father.

 

[Lambano]

The Jews translating the Septuagint used morphe several times, and it always referred to the outward appearance.

What does God's outward appearance look like?

 

[JustMe]

Okay, I will wait.

But you definitely started the wrong way by saying Jesus did not preexist.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Like all verses it is required to look at its context for clearer understanding. Do you know it context?

Yeshua has now come nearly to the end of his mission for his God, literally hours before his imminent death on the Cross. As a human person and man he now begs and asks of his God, his Father to give him the glory promised eons before as part of the plan of God for his Son's successful mission.

As for John 17:5, the glory Yeshua had with his Father is an idiom expression, its not real or literal. Yeshua was not literally present with immortality before humankind with his father. It was given as a promise by his Father to be given him once he died on the Cross. He was promised rebirth, resurrection from his death to immortality with a name above all, except his God's name of course.


(Joh 17:1) Jesus’ Prayer to his God, his Father
These things spoke Jesus, and lifting up his eyes to Heaven, he said: Father, the hour comes. Glorify Your son, that the son may glorify you,

(Joh 17:4) I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You gave me to do.
(Joh 17:5) And now Father, glorify me with Your own self with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
(Joh 17:6) I manifested Your Name to the men whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were and You gave them to me, and they have kept Your word.
(Joh 17:7) Now they know that all things, whatever You have given me, are from You.
(Joh 17:8) For the words which You gave me I have given to them, and they received them, and knew as a truth that I came forth from You; and they believed that You did send me.

Yeshua was now anticipating his divinely promised glory that was "as good as done" because God had predestined or planned it from the beginning. Yeshua is never mentioned in scripture to have had been in an immortal human state until after he died on the Cross.

John 5:26 states: "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself." and only after his death on the Cross.

Romans 6:9 also confirms: "For we know that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him." This highlights that Jesus’ resurrection granted Him an indestructible life, making Him immortal.

This also pointed to the fact that Yeshua never could possibly pre-exist (an impossible idea in itself). He existed at his conception and reborn and resurrected from the dead into a new spirit (a new existence) that became the gateway for all future humans to acquire a new existence, with a new spirit of immortality.

So as a summary: John 17:5 is seen as Yeshua praying for the manifestation of a glory that existed in God’s foreknowledge before creation, not as proof of a literal, pre-existent divine person. That Jesus’ "glory" with the Father before the world began refers also to His role as the divine plan or pat of the "Logos" function in/of God’s mind, not to a personal, eternal existence.

So what is your explanation of Yeshua pre-existing before his human birth? I've yet to see your work.

 

[JustMe]

You made some wrong assumptions of what I believe. I do not believe God is three persons. I'm not a Trinitarian as you may have noticed, or not.

God is one person, and all of His parts are God. Just like I am one person and my spirit, soul and body are all parts of that one person.

Just verses one and two alone do not show the whole picture without verse 14. But verse 2 does declare that the Word is God. You have to read verse 14 to see that the Word is Jesus.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Let me know when you want to talk about the I AM.

No, not ready to speak of the so-called maufactured contrived capitalized 'I AM' that only serves someones man-made religious belief system.

You have not explained why the logos is Yeshua yet. You know the logos is not a person at all. Although 'it' can be possessed by a human person. It is an intrinsic part and reflection of who God is, as the core entity of his Spirit (of the one person God if you like). It completes God, it is the device or mind of God that creates and has nothing to do with being one of his creation, even his son. It is the divine reflection of him as an 'it.' Although you could personify it as a 'he' only if you know 'it' is part of God himself.

The earlier 16th century translations has the logos translated as an 'it.' And that was more precise. Until the Catholics and KJ got into changing it to a 'him.'

 

[JustMe]

What does God's outward appearance look like?

For starters, Yeshua's form or morphe, the Son of God, and until he became Messiah, not of his God, or his Father, visibly reflected his God’s authority, character, and purpose. And only possible because of Yeshua's deep humility, servanthood and obedience in love of his Father, to do his will to the Cross.

It seems I'm doing all the heavy lifting on this thread, answering everyone's questions whilst mine being ignored. Like being already condemned as guilty until being found innocent, of heretical charges. Like having to confess my sins before a jury of those who believe in a strange and impossible God and his Son. Interesting how that works....

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No, not ready to speak of the so-called maufactured contrived capitalized 'I AM' that only serves someones man-made religious belief system.

You have not explained why the logos is Yeshua yet. You know the logos is not a person at all. Although 'it' can be possessed by a human person. It is an intrinsic part and reflection of who God is, as the core entity of his Spirit (of the one person God if you like). It completes God, it is the device or mind of God that creates and has nothing to do with being one of his creation, even his son. It is the divine reflection of him as an 'it.' Although you could personify it as a 'he' only if you know 'it' is part of God himself.

The earlier 16th century translations has the logos translated as an 'it.' And that was more precise. Until the Catholics and KJ got into changing it to a 'him.'

What does "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" mean to you? A child could figure that out.

 

[JustMe]

What does "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" mean to you? A child could figure that out.

Then 1CL, only a very few children did actually figure it out, as only a very few adults. Most unfortunately are ignorant of this verse.

Well here's a response to your latest question.


John 1:14 — "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" — it is profound affirmation of Yeshua as the divine revelation/manifestation of God, his Father, in human form and person, but not as any God incarnate in the "-tarian" sense.

The "(W)word" (Logos) is understood and encapsulated as God's divine mind that creates and created all things into existence as we know it: possessing eternal wisdom, planning, capable of thinking, reasoning, communications/messaging internally and externally, for at least human salvation — not a pre-existent divine person distinct from God.

"Became flesh" means this divine mind of God became literally the mind of a human being, and thus God's logos was revealed in Yeshua, who willingly accepted his role and was fully realized and displayed as the morphe of God, in his life, teachings, and actions. Yeshua of Nazareth, who was a human being was chosen by God, his Father to embody His truth and grace by his time of the Son's anointing as Messiah.

The phrase "dwelt among us" (from the Greek eskēnōsen, meaning "tabernacled") evokes the Shekhinah, the visible presence of God in the Old Testament tabernacle, signifying that God’s glory was now visibly present in Yeshua.

"Glory as of the only begotten from the Father" (monogenēs) emphasizes Jesus’ unique, special relationship with God — not as a divine being, but as the perfect human expression of God’s will and character (his morphe).

It affirms that Yeshua was a real, physical human being who lived, suffered, and died — yet fully aligned with God’s purposes.

The glory, grace, and truth seen in Yeshua are not attributes of a divine nature, but the full manifestation of God’s character through a human life.

So, "the Word became flesh" means God’s eternal message and saving plan became literally embedded in Jesus by the time of his anointing— not as God becoming man, but as God revealing Himself fully through a man who lived in perfect obedience to the Father.

Note: Word or word or logos is not an/ the actual person now is it? It became the life in another human being chosen before time.

 

[ProDeo]

I've get to see your work.

I have never seen the butchering of a crystal clear verse into the opposite the verse clearly states, and so eloquently, meaning you are not dumb. Even the JW folks don't deny the preexistence of Christ.

My work you ask ?

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

"Denial ain't just a river in Egypt."
- Mark Twain (1835-1910)

We are done.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Then 1CL, only a very few children did actually figure it out, as only a very few adults. Most unfortunately are ignorant of this verse.

Well here's a response to your latest question.


John 1:14 — "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" — it is profound affirmation of Yeshua as the divine revelation/manifestation of God, his Father, in human form and person, but not as any God incarnate in the "-tarian" sense.

The "(W)word" (Logos) is understood and encapsulated as God's divine mind that creates and created all things into existence as we know it: possessing eternal wisdom, planning, capable of thinking, reasoning, communications/messaging internally and externally, for at least human salvation — not a pre-existent divine person distinct from God.

"Became flesh" means this divine mind of God became literally the mind of a human being, and thus God's logos was revealed in Yeshua, who willingly accepted his role and was fully realized and displayed as the morphe of God, in his life, teachings, and actions. Yeshua of Nazareth, who was a human being was chosen by God, his Father to embody His truth and grace by his time of the Son's anointing as Messiah.

The phrase "dwelt among us" (from the Greek eskēnōsen, meaning "tabernacled") evokes the Shekhinah, the visible presence of God in the Old Testament tabernacle, signifying that God’s glory was now visibly present in Yeshua.

"Glory as of the only begotten from the Father" (monogenēs) emphasizes Jesus’ unique, special relationship with God — not as a divine being, but as the perfect human expression of God’s will and character (his morphe).

It affirms that Yeshua was a real, physical human being who lived, suffered, and died — yet fully aligned with God’s purposes.

The glory, grace, and truth seen in Yeshua are not attributes of a divine nature, but the full manifestation of God’s character through a human life.

So, "the Word became flesh" means God’s eternal message and saving plan became literally embedded in Jesus by the time of his anointing— not as God becoming man, but as God revealing Himself fully through a man who lived in perfect obedience to the Father.

Note: Word or word or logos is not an/ the actual person now is it? It became the life in another human being chosen before time.

Well somebody needed to tell Jesus this, because Jesus thought that He was the I Am, which is the name of God. Boy, the jokes on him, right? And all the apostles were fooled too. They should have had you there to steer them right!

 

[JustMe]

I have never seen the butchering of a crystal clear verse into the opposite the verse clearly states, and so eloquently, meaning you are not dumb. Even the JW folks don't deny the preexistence of Christ.

My work you ask ?

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

"Denial ain't just a river in Egypt."
- Mark Twain (1835-1910)

We are done.

PD, I've yet to see your work on this subject on Yeshua's pre-existence. Just listing verses that seemingly support your cause is no support I'm afraid. You have to add a few more meaningful sentences to each scripture that corresponds to your thinking of them. For example, do you know what an idiom means? You have three of them in three of the 4 verses you listed. You knew this of course already. They have no literal meaning of course. They are expressions that represent usually hidden, not so obvious subjects, real ideas, people or things.

So tell me, if you believe that for example John 17:5 means Yeshua pre-existed then I have a few questions to ask of you.

Upfront: Now can you avoid invoking the familiar canned non-meaningful descriptions of Yeshua that has no scripture support in answering the following questions: like the divine God the Son, or the 2nd person, or the eternal son, or the deity, or the divine, or saying he is the same as God...etc.. I hope you do not hang your hat and spiritual beliefs on these types of strange and distant names for Yeshua, foreign to scripture.

What or who was Yeshua before his earthly conception and birth?

Was he a spirit exactly the same as his God, his Father or something different? Was he a created angel?

What position did he hold in creation?

Since scripture says his God, his Father had to revive him to new life and give him immortality was he then subordinate to his Father who is his God and always has been his God?!

What did Yeshua do in his pre-existing life? Help his Father, his God create things for him or doe himself?

Can you provide scripture that explicitly supports the claim of Yeshua's pre-existence?

I will not ask you how Yeshua became a human being because I believe the canned answer will always be, 'it's a mystery' of course, and without scripture to support it as well.

And speaking of idioms, I love your pun statement made by the lexophile, Mark Twain. He's one of my favorite historical characters/personalities.

Although I must say that 'Denial' is too real and necessary in life and belief, as you apparently also are in 'Denial' of who is the true Son of God, and even his own Father; being his only God. For me: "Denial is the main river of your spiritual Egypt you cherish."

 

[Lambano]

What does God's outward appearance look like?

For starters, Yeshua's form or morphe, the Son of God, and until he became Messiah, not of his God, or his Father, visibly reflected his God’s authority, character, and purpose.

I was thinking God's outward appearance, his morphe, looked like this:

26 Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man. 27 Then I noticed from the appearance of His waist and upward something like gleaming metal that looked like fire all around within it, and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw something like fire; and there was a radiance around Him. 28 Like the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking. (Ezekiel 1:26-28)

Or this:

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened. (Daniel 7:9-10)

Now, that might've impressed the Sadducees and Pharisees.

 

[ProDeo]

PD, I've yet to see your work on this subject on Yeshua's pre-existence. Just listing verses that seemingly support your cause is no support I'm afraid. You have to add a few more meaningful sentences to each scripture that corresponds to your thinking of them. For example, do you know what an idiom means? You have three of them in three of the 4 verses you listed. You knew this of course already. They have no literal meaning of course. They are expressions that represent usually hidden, not so obvious subjects, real ideas, people or things.

So tell me, if you believe that for example John 17:5 means Yeshua pre-existed then I have a few questions to ask of you.

Upfront: Now can you avoid invoking the familiar canned non-meaningful descriptions of Yeshua that has no scripture support in answering the following questions: like the divine God the Son, or the 2nd person, or the eternal son, or the deity, or the divine, or saying he is the same as God...etc.. I hope you do not hang your hat and spiritual beliefs on these types of strange and distant names for Yeshua, foreign to scripture.

What or who was Yeshua before his earthly conception and birth?

Was he a spirit exactly the same as his God, his Father or something different? Was he a created angel?

What position did he hold in creation?

Since scripture says his God, his Father had to revive him to new life and give him immortality was he then subordinate to his Father who is his God and always has been his God?!

What did Yeshua do in his pre-existing life? Help his Father, his God create things for him or doe himself?

Can you provide scripture that explicitly supports the claim of Yeshua's pre-existence?

I will not ask you how Yeshua became a human being because I believe the canned answer will always be, 'it's a mystery' of course, and without scripture to support it as well.

And speaking of idioms, I love your pun statement made by the lexophile, Mark Twain. He's one of my favorite historical characters/personalities.

Although I must say that 'Denial' is too real and necessary in life and belief, as you apparently also are in 'Denial' of who is the true Son of God, and even his own Father; being his only God. For me: "Denial is the main river of your spiritual Egypt you cherish."

JM, out of pure curiosity, were you always a monotheistic, or did you become one ?

BTW, there folks here on this forum (more or less answering one of your questions) who do believe Jesus was operating with the Father (as the Godhead) in the OT. As you can see Jesus makes this claims Himself, I am the first and the last, quoting Yahweh from Isa, I am He quoting Yahweh from from Isa.

Here are the relevant Scriptures -

Yahweh
Isa 41:4 Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isa 43:13 Also henceforth I am he; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?”
Isa 43:25 “I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.
Isa 48:12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.

Jesus
John 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

John 8:27 They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father.
John 8:28 So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.

John 13:19 I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he.

Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Jesus identifying Himself with Yahweh, the Godhead in action.

So I have raised the stakes for you, to butcher the Scriptures I posted, amaze me again.

Mind you, there are posters here that believe Yahweh was Jesus all along, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Who will deliver the fallen creation back to the Father. I am not that far yet, but they do have points.

1Cor 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
1Cor 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Cor 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Cor 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
1Cor 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Lambano]

For starters, Yeshua's form or morphe, the Son of God, and until he became Messiah, not of his God, or his Father, visibly reflected his God’s authority, character, and purpose.

Let's explore that a little.

In the days before instantaneous communications, the king sent a representative with full delegated authority to implement his purposes remotely. Pilate represented Caesar; the prophets represented God. I can't think of anyplace else in the Bible where the king's agent was said to "be in the form" of the king, or where a prophet was said to "be in the form of God", can you? I don't recall any citations from secular Greek writings of the time by those who study such things where an agent was said to "be in the form" of his master, can you?

That would be significant, so if you have such citations, please share.

 

[JustMe]

Well somebody needed to tell Jesus this, because Jesus thought that He was the I Am, which is the name of God. Boy, the jokes on him, right? And all the apostles were fooled too. They should have had you there to steer them right!

Here is an example of one of those so-called ridiculous ('I AM' expressions => YHWH => Yeshua) that you can remove from your list.

In John 8:12-30 – the light of the world who is also the son of man

(John 8:12) Jesus spoke again to the crowd, saying: I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness but will have the light of life.
(John 8:13) The Pharisees answered him: You testify about yourself; your testimony is not valid.
(John 8:14) Jesus replied: Even if I testify about myself, my testimony is true, because I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.
(John 8:15) You judge by human standards; I do not judge anyone.
(John 8:16) But even if I do judge, my judgment is true, because I am not alone—I and the one who sent me.
(John 8:17) In your own law it is written that the testimony of two people is true.
(John 8:18) I am one who testifies for myself, and the Father who sent me also testifies for me.
(John 8:19) They asked him, “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”
(John 8:20) He said these things while teaching in the temple courts, but no one arrested him because his hour had not yet come.
(John 8:21) Again Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
(John 8:22) The Jews said, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”
(John 8:23) Jesus replied, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
(John 8:24) I told you that you would die in your sins; unless you believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
(John 8:25) “Who are you?” they asked. Jesus said, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning.
(John 8:26) I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”
(John 8:27) They did not understand that he was telling them about the Father.
(John 8:28) So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
(John 8:29) The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.”
(John 8:30) Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

If one reads the entire passage carefully, it becomes clear that the concern about dying in one’s sins is linked to unbelief in Yeshua, who is identified by his Father as the light of the world, of man, or of mankind, as mentioned in John 8:12 and John 1:4.

Let me guide you to this truth by referring to John 8:24, then 8:25a, 8:25b, 8:12, and (1:4), along with other related scriptures.

Yeshua is not claiming to be YHWH. He is saying that his God, who is YHWH, made him the ‘light of the world’ (mankind) John 8:26-29, because he was also the Messiah, if you want to track that list of relevant scriptures at some point.

And in verse 30 it stated many believed in who he was, the light of the world, send by his God, who is also YHWH.

I can give you another confusing ‘I AM’ statement to remove from your list briefly: when the woman at Jacob’s well spoke with Yeshua about the coming Messiah, Yeshua told her that he was that Messiah (I am he). Again, Yeshua is not saying he is his Father, who is YHWH.

Examining scripture in more detail and understanding their context clears up much of the confusion and myths about who Yeshua is and who YHWH is.

 

[JustMe]

JM, out of pure curiosity, were you always a monotheistic, or did you become one ?

BTW, there folks here on this forum (more or less answering one of your questions) who do believe Jesus was operating with the Father (as the Godhead) in the OT. As you can see Jesus makes this claims Himself, I am the first and the last, quoting Yahweh from Isa, I am He quoting Yahweh from from Isa.

Here are the relevant Scriptures -

Yahweh
Isa 41:4 Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isa 43:13 Also henceforth I am he; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?”
Isa 43:25 “I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.
Isa 48:12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.

Jesus
John 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

John 8:27 They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father.
John 8:28 So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.

John 13:19 I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he.

Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Jesus identifying Himself with Yahweh, the Godhead in action.

So I have raised the stakes for you, to butcher the Scriptures I posted, amaze me again.

Mind you, there are posters here that believe Yahweh was Jesus all along, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Who will deliver the fallen creation back to the Father. I am not that far yet, but they do have points.

1Cor 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
1Cor 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Cor 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Cor 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
1Cor 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Grace and peace to you.

JM, out of pure curiosity, were you always a monotheistic, or did you become one ?
-------------
I was always a one God believer, even before I first read some scripture from any Bible, as I look about at the night sky, all of God's creation as a young boy, and did not know that the word 'monotheism' existed at the time; - and to believe that God is one and there was no other besides him.

Ironically, I was taught at an early age by a loosely knit band of missionary nuns where their 'small' order disbanded years ago. They were missionaries in the real sense of the word, the wandering type of female preachers of God. They taught me, beside my Dad that there was only one God and his Son; and he was just that, his Son, and came into the world at one point in time by this one God, YHWH.

I later, over a few decades, separated myself from any previously affiliated religious organization that taught God could be also his Son, himself or considered his Son exactly the same. And also those who believed in a separate Spirit entity that I considered and still consider today the same one Spirit of God, the Father.

 

[JustMe]

I was thinking God's outward appearance, his morphe, looked like this:

26 Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man. 27 Then I noticed from the appearance of His waist and upward something like gleaming metal that looked like fire all around within it, and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw something like fire; and there was a radiance around Him. 28 Like the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking. (Ezekiel 1:26-28)

Or this:

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened. (Daniel 7:9-10)

Now, that might've impressed the Sadducees and Pharisees.

Yes, although...

I must reiterate that Yeshua is and will always be the visible and metaphorical representation (word) of God, but never God himself. As such, he is 'always' the morphe of his Father, both on earth and now in heaven. The key distinction today is that the Son not only embodies the same character as his Father in heaven but is also portrayed there through heavenly imagery as embodying God's character.

Ezekiel 1:26-28 presents vivid imagery of God's glory and expression through his Son, who acts as his agent of change and the ongoing executor of his plan, at least for humanity.

While Yeshua was called the form or morphe of God on earth, representing his Father’s character, determination, and purpose—relying on his Father to complete his earthly mission—he continues to be the morphe of his God in heaven, described in Ezekiel and other scriptures through imagery.

In Ezekiel 1:26, "Above the expanse that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone; and on the likeness of the throne was a likeness as the appearance of a man on it above."

The visible imagery of the throne in heaven includes the sapphire stone, depicted as the Son of Man, Yeshua, symbolising the invisible power and presence of God.

In Ezekiel 1:27, "I saw as it were glowing metal, as the appearance of fire within it all around, from the appearance of his waist and upward. From the appearance of his waist and downward I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness around him."

This imagery of glowing metal and fire surrounding him, shining brightly in heaven, represents the Son of Man, Yeshua, symbolizing God's purity, brilliance, and unchanging nature.

In Ezekiel 1:28, "As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness all around. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of Yahweh. When I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of one that spoke."

The visible image of the rainbow over the Son of Man, Yeshua, signifies the invisible mercy and glory of God.

Yeshua fully embodies the true mosaic morphe of his Father—his character, purpose, and determined will.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Here is an example of one of those so-called ridiculous ('I AM' expressions => YHWH => Yeshua) that you can remove from your list.

In John 8:12-30 – the light of the world who is also the son of man

(John 8:12) Jesus spoke again to the crowd, saying: I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness but will have the light of life.
(John 8:13) The Pharisees answered him: You testify about yourself; your testimony is not valid.
(John 8:14) Jesus replied: Even if I testify about myself, my testimony is true, because I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.
(John 8:15) You judge by human standards; I do not judge anyone.
(John 8:16) But even if I do judge, my judgment is true, because I am not alone—I and the one who sent me.
(John 8:17) In your own law it is written that the testimony of two people is true.
(John 8:18) I am one who testifies for myself, and the Father who sent me also testifies for me.
(John 8:19) They asked him, “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”
(John 8:20) He said these things while teaching in the temple courts, but no one arrested him because his hour had not yet come.
(John 8:21) Again Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
(John 8:22) The Jews said, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”
(John 8:23) Jesus replied, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
(John 8:24) I told you that you would die in your sins; unless you believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
(John 8:25) “Who are you?” they asked. Jesus said, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning.
(John 8:26) I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”
(John 8:27) They did not understand that he was telling them about the Father.
(John 8:28) So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
(John 8:29) The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.”
(John 8:30) Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

If one reads the entire passage carefully, it becomes clear that the concern about dying in one’s sins is linked to unbelief in Yeshua, who is identified by his Father as the light of the world, of man, or of mankind, as mentioned in John 8:12 and John 1:4.

Let me guide you to this truth by referring to John 8:24, then 8:25a, 8:25b, 8:12, and (1:4), along with other related scriptures.

Yeshua is not claiming to be YHWH. He is saying that his God, who is YHWH, made him the ‘light of the world’ (mankind) John 8:26-29, because he was also the Messiah, if you want to track that list of relevant scriptures at some point.

And in verse 30 it stated many believed in who he was, the light of the world, send by his God, who is also YHWH.

I can give you another confusing ‘I AM’ statement to remove from your list briefly: when the woman at Jacob’s well spoke with Yeshua about the coming Messiah, Yeshua told her that he was that Messiah (I am he). Again, Yeshua is not saying he is his Father, who is YHWH.

Examining scripture in more detail and understanding their context clears up much of the confusion and myths about who Yeshua is and who YHWH is.

John also said "God is light in whom there is no darkness." Jesus is the light of the world. If you know Him, you know the Father.