I didn't want to tread on your post Axehead
But you do sound a lot like a very close friend of mine in that post :)
But you do sound a lot like a very close friend of mine in that post :)
The Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven
- Thread starter Axehead
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Selene
New Member
Yes, can you imagine that! These reformers also tell me the same thing. They say, "I follow the Bible." Catholics, on the other hand, follow Jesus Christ. Christianity was never about the Bible because the Bible did not even exist until the 4th century when it was canonized by the Catholic Church. Also, the Bible tells the reader to follow Jesus Christ. It never said to follow the Bible. If they had a choice between God and the Bible, they wouldn't know which to choose because to some of them, God and the Bible are one and the same.
You see what happens when you don't know your history. In the Catholic Church, we carry all the Apostolic Tradition that was given to us by the Apostles. And we also know our own history. The Catholic Church have had a few bad popes in her history....and thank goodness, there were only a few.
For example, Pope John XII who was pope in 964 was not a model pope. He was a womanizer, a drunkard, and even had sex with his own niece. He was not fit to sit on the chair of the Apostle Peter, but then again......who am I to judge. The Apostle Peter denied Christ three times. Nevertheless, regardless of the few bad popes in history, the teachings of the Catholic Church remained intact.
Hi veteran,
I've been thinking about this deduction you made from the letter to the church at Philadelphia in Revelation 3:10.
Surely there was enough persecution of the early church for that 'hour' to be referring to them, then?
I've been thinking about this deduction you made from the letter to the church at Philadelphia in Revelation 3:10.
Surely there was enough persecution of the early church for that 'hour' to be referring to them, then?
It refers to both. Revelation can refer to more than one time period. "Babylon" can refer to every anti-Christian dictatorship of this past century. It can also refer to the god "Self" and the Dictator of Moral Relativism in our own day.
Books of the Bible were circulated all right, but that is just an excuse to deny the Catholic Church made them canon and binding on all believers. It's historical revisionism at is worst.
We have the names of many Christians and Popes who were killed by pagan Rome that hostile anti-Catholics refuse to acknowledge. (before the canon of the Bible), we know what they taught and believed. It's called Christianity. It's called Catholicism. What they believed is not accepted by hostile anti-Catholics.
For all of Christianity of the first 3 centuries, the Christian Rule of Faith included belief in the Apostolic succession through the Episcopate, the authority of Tradition itself, the authority of Scripture, the three fold ministry (bishop-priest-deacon), the Eucharist as Sacrifice, belief in baptismal regeneration, prayers for the dead, veneration of the Saints, the Seven sacraments, the evangelical counsels, and others. The historical evidence is there for anyone who wishes to see it.
The Roman Catacombs were burial grounds for the martyrs of the 1st 3 centuries, and none of the artifacts bear witness to anything remotely Protestant. None of the early Christians from that time period believed in "Bible alone" or "faith alone" theories. The only defense anti-Catholics have is an offense: opinions on a handful of verses in a vain attempt to discredit the truth, that Jesus established an earthly authority in conjunction with His authority. So they "spiritualize" the Church and "spiritualize" the Eucharist thus resorting to pagan dualism in their rebellion against the Church He set up through Peter and the Apostles. They remain blind to historical facts. They are not following the Bible, they are following 16th century Nominalist philosophy that tells them that the Bible means whatever the individual wants it to mean, and the Holy Spirit is behind all the conflicting confessions of faith. The Holy Spirit is in each individual believer but not the Catholic Church. Everybody is a pope but the Pope. What a joke.
I'll take the councils, the Popes, the writings of the saints, and the Early Church Fathers over and above the opinions of rebellious amoral apostates any day. (whom hostile anti-Catholics have as their "popes", even though they won't admit it.)
So, you're saying I'm against the pope? No, I didn't say that, I said that Isaiah 22 Scripture is not about a... pope.
Does that mean you're having trouble seeing points in that Rev.3 Scripture all the way for the end? Look with me more closely...
Rev 3:10-12
10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Is our Lord Jesus applying that event only upon those of the Church of Philadelphia, for John's day? What exactly does that "upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" mean? See my point?
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Was Christ's second coming set to occur in John's days? We definitely ought to know the answer to that is no, since it's been almost 2000 years since John's days. When Scripture is talking about that event of Christ's second coming, it is always about the prophecy of His return at the very end of this present world.
No one inherits the kingdom unless they are born of the Spirit of God.
That makes the Spirit of God the Key.
That makes the Spirit of God the Key.
Selene
New Member
Could you show me where in the Bible it states that the "Spirit of God is the key"?
The Pope is the Bishop of Rome. A Bishop is an overseer. Furthermore, the word Pope means "father."
Isaiah 22:21-22 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
In Isaiah 22, Eliakim was given the key, and the Bible says that he shall be a "father" to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. In Matthew 16, the key was given to the Apostle Peter, and His successors are called "father" which is another name for Pope.
[1]Pope might mean father, But not in the Bible, Hebrew or Greek.
So the pope isn't a father of God's Church.
Besides, There is no such office as a pope in the Bible's new testament Church.
[2]A Biblical "Bishop" Is the Pastor of the local Church,
So if the pope was a Pastor, he would only be Pastor of one Church in Rome.
[3]What has Isaiah 22: 21--22 got to do with the pope??.
[4]Jesus gave the keys to every believer, Not just Peter.
[3]There is no such thing as, Apostolic succession,
When Matthias replaced Judas, Act 1: 16--26, He had to be an eye witness of the,
life, Ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus, Act 1: 20--22.
And that was before the New Testament Church started, As it started on the day of Pentecost., And so did the new Testament Apostles, Eph 4: 8-- 11 says Jesus gave them at His ascention.
And 1 Cor 12: 28 says God sets them in the Church,
There is nothing about Aopstolic succession,
Besides, catholics don't believe there are Apostles today.
If you think Eliakim of Isa.22 represents the pope on earth, then you may as well denounce your belief in Christ Jesus as The Saviour, and instead pronounce the pope as your Saviour. But wait a minute, doesn't the pope himself NEED a Saviour?
Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
John 3
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
2 Corinthians 1
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Matthew 16
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
.
Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Selene
New Member
First you say, that Isaiah 22 has nothing to do with the Pope, and I proved you incorrect. Now, you are saying this?? What has this have to do with what I posted?
[font=lucida sans unicode']Don't you know that God calls certain people. He called Eliakim to be the "father" of Jerusalem and gave him the keys. He called Peter to be the "leader of the Apostles" and gave him the keys. If God can call these people, He can call the Pope and even make him the "father" of the Church just as He made Eliakim the "father" of Jerusalem" and Abraham, the "father" of many nations. It is not your choice. It is God's choice. [/font]
Hey, tiger didn't you get the memo the one about a new covenant.
I know you just can't live with yourself unless you take orders from a man but its not for everyone.
Being in bondage never really appealed to me
A New Covenant
[sup]31 [/sup]“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— [sup]32 [/sup]not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[sup][a][/sup] says the Lord. [sup]33 [/sup]But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [sup]34 [/sup]No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
The underlined part thats for you
Selene
New Member
There is nothing in any of those scriptures that says that the Spirit of God is a key.
Eph 1:13-14
He's the deposit, seal, guarantee
Say my last post to you would you try to see to it that the pope gets that memo,
His fax machine must have run out of paper.
Thank you
Ohh and this one as well hes been replaced
John 16:13
Selene
New Member
[font=lucida sans unicode']The Pope is the Bishop of Rome. And the Roman Catholic Church is ONE regardless of what country they are from. In other words, the Catholic church in Guam is one with the Roman Catholic Church in Rome because we are in communion with each other and with God. The Body of Christ is one and inseparable from one another. We are also one with Christ, our Head. Tell me.....is your church separate from each other??[/font]
That sounds awful complicated why not receive the promise of the Holy Spirit
Its much less complicated and its biblical sound doctrine
Its much less complicated and its biblical sound doctrine
I am not surprised that you don't think so. Yet without the Spirit of God you can't get there from anywhere. It would be a good Idea to work on that. Because where your heart is there your treasure will be also.
Selene
New Member
We already have the promise of the Holy Spirit and God is already present in the Church as our Head. This is who we are:
Ephesians 2:19-22 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
We are a Church that have existed for 2000 years founded by Christ through the Apostle Peter whom we can trace our lineage to.
Ephesians 2:19-22 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
We are a Church that have existed for 2000 years founded by Christ through the Apostle Peter whom we can trace our lineage to.
