The Law 430 years later did not...

[Hiddenthings]

Maybe dak was to embarrassed to use the English language with that post? ...or was it something more?

"Yithrow Reuel (“His Excellency, Friend of God”) was and is a priest (Kohen) in the order of Melchizedek. Moses himself was and is a priest in the order of Melchizedek. King David also was and is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, as were the other high priests (Kohanim Gadolim) after King David, such as Joshua son of Jozadak, the high priest. The Messiah is the final priest in the order of Melchizedek: he defeated death through faith in the Word of the Father and will die no more"

@NSH see what I'm dealing with.

Joshua son of Jozadak (or Jeshua) was from the tribe of Levi. Specifically, he was a descendant of Aaron, making him a Levitical priest (a Kohen). He served as the high priest when the Israelites returned from the Babylonian exile (Ezra 3:2; Nehemiah 12:10–11).

Where is it stated Moses was a priest in the order of Melchizedek.

@dak you are one self- deceived individual.

 

[dak]

Maybe dak was to embarrassed to use the English language with that post? ...or was it something more?

"Yithrow Reuel (“His Excellency, Friend of God”) was and is a priest (Kohen) in the order of Melchizedek. Moses himself was and is a priest in the order of Melchizedek. King David also was and is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, as were the other high priests (Kohanim Gadolim) after King David, such as Joshua son of Jozadak, the high priest. The Messiah is the final priest in the order of Melchizedek: he defeated death through faith in the Word of the Father and will die no more"

@NSH see what I'm dealing with.

Joshua son of Jozadak (or Jeshua) was from the tribe of Levi. Specifically, he was a descendant of Aaron, making him a Levitical priest (a Kohen). He served as the high priest when the Israelites returned from the Babylonian exile (Ezra 3:2; Nehemiah 12:10–11).

Where is it stated Moses was a priest in the order of Melchizedek.

@dak you are one self- deceived individual.

Out of curiosity I actually left one critically important name out of that list because I wanted to test the Torah knowledge of NSH, seeing that he is a brand new member, (that was his first post). But apparently he must have posted that one post and signed off for the night, (or if not, either way I of course have no clue).

But as for you, in light of your post quoted above herein, the possibility of you knowing who I speak of just decreased to about a 0.0001 possibility. Again, study the Torah, (and the things spoken concerning the Torah in the Testimony of the Master and taught by his Apostles in the Briyth Hadashah writings). For example, the Torah was given by way of (though) the instrumentality of Angels, (Acts 7:53, Gal 3:19, Heb 2:2), and contains Living Oracles, (Acts 7:38).

No need for me to respond to your final remark: every one should know what that is.

 

[Hiddenthings]

For example, the Torah was given by way of (though) the instrumentality of Angels, (Acts 7:53, Gal 3:19, Heb 2:2), and contains Living Oracles, (Acts 7:38).

Why not in Hebrew dak? And where is the evidence?

You quote Acts 7:38 without having a single idea of the context.

The Greek term logia zōnta means “living utterances” (Roth.). In line with Stephen’s argument, these were not revealed at Jerusalem, but at Sinai. Indeed, the living Word revealed in Christ (John 1:14) stands in contrast to the “word of their fathers,” which was dead (John 6:49; cf. 1 Peter 1:3; 2:5).

John 6:49 – “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.”

1 Peter 1:3 – “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.”

1 Peter 2:5 – “You yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

How is it every time you post you fail to show the records true message and intent?

Everytime!

 

[dak]

Why not in Hebrew dak? And where is the evidence?
You quote Acts 7:38 without having a single idea of the context.

It seems as though a spiritual boil in your forehead is beginning to fester, dear killer.
Here is some Hebrew for you:

Revelation 17:5 Hebrew Bible
ועל מצחה כתוב שם סוד בבל הגדולה אם הזנות ותועבות האדמה׃​

Go here, click on Hebrew Gematria in the drop down box, then paste the red portion into the input box at the top.

"Come out of her, my people! that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues!" (Rev 18:4).

If you do not consider the Torah as frontlets between your eyes, (Deut 11:18), to guide you in your journey into Meshiah, (Gal 3:24), then you will inevitably end up with the great horn of Yavan between your eyes, (Dan 8:21). And if you view the Torah as physical and outward in meaning, and strap Tefillin boxes on your arm/hand and between your eyes, then you are no better off than the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes. Lose "the flesh" and all of its attributes, including the mindset: come out of her before it is too late and you end up learning the hard way, (just as I also did: it will not be a fire to be warmed by).

The Greek term logia zōntameans “living utterances” (Roth.). In line with Stephen’s argument, these were not revealed at Jerusalem, but at Sinai. Indeed, the living Word revealed in Christ (John 1:14) stands in contrast to the “word of their fathers,” which was dead (John 6:49; cf. 1 Peter 1:3; 2:5).


John 6:49 – “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.”

1 Peter 1:3 – “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.”

1 Peter 2:5 – “You yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

How is it every time you post you fail to show the records true message and intent?

Everytime!

Again,

 

[Hiddenthings]

"Come out of her, my people! that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues!" (Rev 18:4).

I'm not sure whether you understand this verse or not...given you lack of honesty with what the Torah can and can't do I need to assume you don't for now.

A similar call was once given to God’s people (your people!) in ancient Babylon before its fall (Isa 48:20; Jer 51:6). In the future, a renewed proclamation will go out to Israel according to the flesh, through the ministry of Elijah (Mal. 4), and also to the nations, especially Catholic Europe that are yet to be brought under the authority of Christ (Isa 66:19–20). This appeal will warn that by remaining within Babylon, they are giving silent approval to her sins, and as a result they will share in her judgment.

The Jewish people will listen and return to the Land of Promise, and with them a “mixed multitude” from the nations will also separate themselves from Rome and pledge their allegiance to the new authority centered in Jerusalem. It is noteworthy that Kimchi, a Jewish rabbi, in his commentary on Obadiah’s prophecy against Edom, wrote: “This is the hope of the nation, when Rome shall be desolated, that then shall be the redemption of Israel.”

In that day, not only Israel but many peoples will turn to Yahweh (Zech 2:11; 8:21). Yet other nations, refusing to do so, will be destroyed (Isa. 60:12). When this great separation takes place, Babylon will finally be delivered over to complete destruction.

 

[Hiddenthings]

What, then, is the Law’s greatest deficiency, a fact known by all the faithful of old? Those who held the faith of Abraham, such as Moses, David and many more Jewish believers since.

The sin offering in the Law allowed the widest range of choices, since “all have sinned” and no one was to be excluded, rich or poor, king or commoner, all were under sin! Yet one striking omission stands out in the sin offering regulations: the male lamb. Nowhere in the Law of Moses, or anywhere in the Old Testament, is a male lamb presented as a sin offering. The only related reference is in Isaiah 53:7, “like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,” but even there the context is the trespass offering, not the sin offering. This omission gives profound meaning to John’s declaration: “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29).

In that statement two truths are revealed:

(a) Jesus provided the one sin offering that the Law never prescribed
(b) his sacrifice was fully sufficient, covering not just Israel, but the sins of the whole world.

Some may already grasp why this is so significant.

First, it shows that the Law was never meant to bring salvation or fully deal with sin, the very repetition of sacrifices continually reminded the people of this truth. There was an offering the Law could never supply.

Second, it points to the universal reach of Christ’s sacrifice, one not limited to Israel but extended to the whole world.

Finally, the faithful of old, Abraham, Moses, David, and others placed their hope not in the Law but in God’s promise of a greater Redeemer in whom the promises would be fulfilled (2 Corinthians 1:20). The male lamb, absent from the Mosaic system, is found at last in Christ, the promised Son, who perfectly fulfilled their hope.

 

[Hiddenthings]

A proper understanding of the Torah’s limitations, combined with a thorough knowledge of God’s promises, is what equips a person to enter the order of Melchizedek.

The Torah’s shortcomings served as much a teaching purpose as its positive commandments.

Take Numbers 19:6 – “The priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and sprinkle it seven times before the tent of meeting, and the rest of the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering. And he shall take the hyssop and dip it in the blood that is at the base of the altar and sprinkle it seven times upon the tent and upon all the furnishings and upon the people who were there, and it shall be clean



The small, unassuming hyssop shrub thrives with minimal demands from its environment. Its roots penetrate deep into chalky soil, it spreads across rocky terrain and boulders, and it climbs stone walls, cliffs, and sun-exposed crevices. As a modest, humble plant, it stands in stark contrast to the towering, majestic trees around it.

John 19:29, hyssop appears in a very symbolic moment “A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth.”

The hyssop, scarlet, and red heifer together form a vivid typology illustrating what the Law could not accomplish on its own. Hyssop, a small, humble, and tenacious plant, symbolizes humility and faith in action; its use in the red heifer ritual demonstrates that purification was accessible to all, high or low, and Christ’s use of hyssop in John 19:29 underscores humility in his sacrificial death. The scarlet, derived from the small tola’ath shani insect, represents the flesh of sin, showing that death was necessary to produce a purifying effect, just as Christ’s death was essential for true cleansing. The red heifer itself, burned with hyssop and scarlet, produced ashes that effected ritual purification, revealing that mere human effort or adherence to the Law could never achieve complete cleansing. Together, these elements point forward to Christ, who fulfills what the Law could not, providing true purification through his sacrifice, available to all who approach him in humility and faith.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Numbers 19:10 “And a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer and deposit them outside the camp in a clean place, and they shall be kept for the congregation of the people of Israel for the water for impurity; it is a sin offering. It is a purification for sin. And a man who is unclean shall be unclean until the evening.”

The type, points forward to Christ, who was freed from the limitations of mortality at the “evening” or close of the Mosaic age (Hebrews 9:26):

"But now once at the end of the ages he has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

The reality of the Torah is in full view!

 

[Hiddenthings]

You know @dak, if those under the Law had heeded not only its positive commands but also recognized its shortcomings, they could have entered into the new order of Melchizedek.

You see that, don’t you?

But this entrance into the New Covenant can only be by faith in the promises of God via the Abrahamic Covenant in Messiah.

Only in this way can Moses, David etc be of that order.

 

[dak]

You know @dak, if those under the Law had heeded not only its positive commands but also recognized its shortcomings, they could have entered into the new order of Melchizedek.

You see that, don’t you?

But this entrance into the New Covenant can only be by faith in the promises of God via the Abrahamic Covenant in Messiah.

Only in this way can Moses, David etc be of that order.

Again, Reply #30 from this thread:

Quote:]
Your confusion is on you for lack of Torah knowledge and neither believing the Master nor Paul.

Deuteronomy 10:16 KJV
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 KJV
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, [LXX: from one end of heaven to the other, (Mat 24:31)] from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

And later in this passage is a portion from which Paul also quotes:

Romans 10:6-8 KJV
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? [Deut 30:12] ( that is, to bring Christ down from above: )
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? [Deut 30:13] ( that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead. )
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: [Deut 30:14] that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

But look what immediately follows in that context from which Paul quotes:

Deuteronomy 30:11-19 KJV
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? [Romans 10:6]
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? [Romans 10:7]
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. [Romans 10:8]
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Mosheh explicitly states to anyone who reads and studies the Torah that he has set before us life and good, and death and evil: life and death, and blessing and cursing: therefore choose life.

Paul has already explained, (as quoted previously from Romans 8 here in this thread), that the natural-carnal mind understanding is death: therefore it is a choice everyone must make, and to choose the flesh, the physical, the natural man understanding of the things in the Torah, is to choose death because the Torah is spiritual, not because I say so but because Mosheh and Paul say so in the holy scripture.

The attacks you have leveled herein show that you choose to believe that circumcision according to the Torah is meant as physical and outward, the circumcision of the male private member, when in fact the Torah also teaches circumcision of the heart, just as Paul also teaches, (also quoted previously herein to you from Rom 2:28-29, and Paul surely received it from the Torah), even while Mosheh says what he does in the passages above about choosing life over death. You therefore remain stiff-necked because of your own natural minded paradigm, and because of it you unwittingly choose death. You are no better off than the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes who believed and understood the Torah in the same manner as you do, and enforced their carnal-minded understanding upon the people well before you ever came along. You are at the end of a double millennia-long line of natural-minded religious people tinkering with the Torah who naturally end up choosing death.

Moreover Paul informs the reader, in the passage quoted above herein, that the Rhema-Word of the faith which he preaches comes straight from Deuteronomy 30, and even expounds the Master from what he quoted, (Rom 10:6-8).
[End Quote.

This is the beginning of the Good News (choosing life) -vs- the Bad News (choosing death).
WHICH do you suppose the Meshiah preaches throughout the Gospel accounts?
He chose the Life, the Good News, and he preaches and teaches it in all his discourses.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The attacks you have leveled herein show that you choose to believe that circumcision according to the Torah is meant as physical and outward, the circumcision of the male private member, when in fact the Torah also teaches circumcision of the heart, just as Paul also teaches, (also quoted previously herein to you from Rom 2:28-29, and Paul surely received it from the Torah), even while Mosheh says what he does in the passages above about choosing life over death. You therefore remain stiff-necked because of your own natural minded paradigm, and because of it you unwittingly choose death. You are no better off than the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes who believed and understood the Torah in the same manner as you do, and enforced their carnal-minded understanding upon the people well before you ever came along. You are at the end of a double millennia-long line of natural-minded religious people tinkering with the Torah who naturally end up choosing death.

Moreover Paul informs the reader, in the passage quoted above herein, that the Rhema-Word of the faith which he preaches comes straight from Deuteronomy 30, and even expounds the Master from what he quoted, (Rom 10:6-8).

This is the beginning of the Good News (choosing life) -vs- the Bad News (choosing death).
WHICH do you suppose the Meshiah preaches throughout the Gospel accounts?
He chose the Life, the Good News, and he preaches and teaches it in all his discourses.

I agree with all of what you have written, but life is not given through the Torah. The Torah leads its followers to Christ and to the Promises.

“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live” (Deut. 30:19, ESV).

The way to life is to love Yahweh in the manner described in v.16. This aligns with Paul’s words:

“For while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds PROMISE for the present life and also for the life to come” (1 Tim. 4:8, ESV).

Dak, why is it that almost every time you quote an OT passage, you ignore the sections that reveal the Law is not the basis of salvation, but that the promise of life is rooted in the Abrahamic Covenant, the foundation of the New Covenant?

“Loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them” (Deut. 30:20, ESV).

A fleshly connection to the patriarchs did not automatically secure their descendants an inheritance in the land (or Life), as demonstrated by the failure of the wilderness generation. Paul echoes the same warning:

“Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22, ESV; cf. Deut. 4:40; 5:16; 11:8–9).

Faith goes beyond the Law!

The promises to Abraham are absolutely certain of fulfillment, but personal participation in them rests upon each individual’s measure of obedient faith. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will undoubtedly receive the inheritance promised to them, and Moses’ words therefore assure us of their resurrection to eternal life.

Your failure to connect the Torah with the patriarchs and the promises given to them which is Moses’ very example in Deut. 30:20 has become so loud that the only explanation left is deafness on your part.

I will follow up with how this is also taught by Paul in Romans 10.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Moreover Paul informs the reader, in the passage quoted above herein, that the Rhema-Word of the faith which he preaches comes straight from Deuteronomy 30, and even xpounds the Master from what he quoted, (Rom 10:6-8).

In Romans 10:6–8, Paul draws on the words of Moses in Deuteronomy 30:12–14 to show that in Christ, God has already accomplished what man could never do for himself....hence the reason for the Law.

The righteousness that is by faith speaks not of an impossible striving, but of a heart attuned to God in loving obedience. Moses’ words discouraged Israel from imagining that God’s will was too hard or out of reach; rather, His word was already near, in their mouth and in their heart, to guide both their speech and their desire to please Him. Paul applies this to Christ, declaring that we need not ask, “Who will ascend into heaven?” for God has already sent His Son from heaven. Nor must we ask, “Who will descend into the deep?” for God has already raised Him from the dead, proving His mighty power. The word of faith that Paul and the apostles proclaimed is therefore the very same principle Moses taught: that true justification comes not through legalistic works (of Law), but through faith in God’s gracious provision by promise.

2 Corinthians 1:20 (ESV): “For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him (Christ) that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.”

I never here this Amen from you dak - not in relation to the promises of God. You Amen the Law in every post, but not the Promises or the Abrahamic Covenant or the Davidic for that matter - it's just one Old Covenant that you amen!

I'll let you know when this changes.

Also see Romans 10:11 “For the Scripture says, ‘Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.’”

Here, the word “him” points to the “sure foundation stone” spoken of in Isaiah 28. This stands in deliberate contrast to reliance on the Temple or the Law. Even in Isaiah’s time, it was understood that someone greater than both the Temple and the Law was to come. Paul, with full clarity, identifies that “someone” as the Lord Jesus Christ, the true foundation upon whom salvation rests.

 

[Wick Stick]

Hebrews 8:13 "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."
...
Obsolete and aging: The Law has grown old, has been set aside, and will shortly disappear (Hebrews 12:26–29; Haggai 2:6). This was foretold in Daniel 8:9–12, 24; 9:26, and Isaiah 50:9, which likens it to a garment that wears out and is consumed by moths.

Hebrews 8 is a callback to Jeremiah 31. It quotes it several times, and the "new covenant" was proclaimed by Jeremiah already in the 8th century BC.

The prophets... Jeremiah, Isaiah, Daniel, Hosea, Amos... they are ALL ready to dispose of the Levitical priesthood. They all proclaim, 'righteousness over sacrifices.' They all contradict Deuteronomy's "purge the evil from among you" mandate of enforcing the Law one against another. They all prefer "the Law on our heart" over such a thing.

The covenant of Moses never really vanishes, but the priesthood does. I think if you examine it, you'll find that the Mosaic covenant failed at its inception. The Israelites were worshiping the Golden Calf even as Moses came down the mountain. And so instead of the blessings of that covenant, they always inherited the curses. The Levitical priesthood was created as a buffer between Israel and God, to prevent Him from destroying them outright. And that priesthood, the Levitical priesthood, was always a burden and curse on Israel. They were always wicked shepherds, who destroyed and consumed the sheep. And this was ordained by God for them, as a penalty for breaking the covenant.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Hebrews 8 is a callback to Jeremiah 31. It quotes it several times, and the "new covenant" was proclaimed by Jeremiah already in the 8th century BC.

The prophets... Jeremiah, Isaiah, Daniel, Hosea, Amos... they are ALL ready to dispose of the Levitical priesthood. They all proclaim, 'righteousness over sacrifices.' They all contradict Deuteronomy's "purge the evil from among you" mandate of enforcing the Law one against another. They all prefer "the Law on our heart" over such a thing.

The covenant of Moses never really vanishes, but the priesthood does. I think if you examine it, you'll find that the Mosaic covenant failed at its inception. The Israelites were worshiping the Golden Calf even as Moses came down the mountain. And so instead of the blessings of that covenant, they always inherited the curses. The Levitical priesthood was created as a buffer between Israel and God, to prevent Him from destroying them outright. And that priesthood, the Levitical priesthood, was always a burden and curse on Israel. They were always wicked shepherds, who destroyed and consumed the sheep. And this was ordained by God for them, as a penalty for breaking the covenant.

I understand where Dak is coming from in recognizing that the Torah was spoken and written by the Spirit of God and that it is both holy and good. Where we differ is in understanding the Torah’s design and purpose. While Dak focuses almost exclusively on the Torah itself, he does not address its limitations or deficiencies, nor does he engage with the promises of the Abrahamic covenant. His perspective seems to be fixated on the Law rather than its role as a teacher pointing toward Christ.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I do not accept that there is a "brand-new" covenant that is just applicable to this particular era.

I do accept that over time the Salvation Covenant has been refreshed a number of times and that it seems to be "like new" once more for us to respond too.

Jay, the way I see it is the New Covenant in Christ is the first in the Mind of God i.e lamb slain from the foundation of the world. However, all the others are shadows of the original with the only exception to the promises of God to all of which must require faith to be believed not law.

 

[Wick Stick]

I understand where Dak is coming from in recognizing that the Torah was spoken and written by the Spirit of God and that it is both holy and good. Where we differ is in understanding the Torah’s design and purpose. While Dak focuses almost exclusively on the Torah itself, he does not address its limitations or deficiencies, nor does he engage with the promises of the Abrahamic covenant. His perspective seems to be fixated on the Law rather than its role as a teacher pointing toward Christ.

I see Moses' Law as being largely punitive. The Israelites violated the terms of it even before they knew them.

Israel never inherited the blessings associated with the Mosaic Law - and Moses doesn't spend much time enumerating them. He spends comparatively a large amount of time on the curses associated with breaking the Law. He already knew that's where things were headed.

That doesn't make the Law a bad thing.

I find it important to put a different between the covenant of the Law and the Levitical priesthood that came with it. The Law is never exactly abrogated. It's application is changed, but the commandments remain. The priesthood, on the other hand, is absolutely changed. The Levitical priesthood IS done away with.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I see Moses' Law as being largely punitive. The Israelites violated the terms of it even before they knew them.

Israel never inherited the blessings associated with the Mosaic Law - and Moses doesn't spend much time enumerating them. He spends comparatively a large amount of time on the curses associated with breaking the Law. He already knew that's where things were headed.

That doesn't make the Law a bad thing.

I find it important to put a different between the covenant of the Law and the Levitical priesthood that came with it. The Law is never exactly abrogated. It's application is changed, but the commandments remain. The priesthood, on the other hand, is absolutely changed. The Levitical priesthood IS done away with.

Agree.

I appreciate how Dak highlights the beauty of the Law, it is, without question, a wonderfully designed covenant. But its omissions are just as important, if not more so, than the laws themselves. For example, the sin offering notably did not include a male lamb, for very obvious reasons.

 

[Wick Stick]

Agree.

I appreciate how Dak highlights the beauty of the Law, it is, without question, a wonderfully designed covenant. But its omissions are just as important, if not more so, than the laws themselves. For example, the sin offering notably did not include a male lamb, for very obvious reasons.

I see the system of sacrifices being part of the Levitical priesthood, rather than The Law.

There's always a little weirdness when we say The Law, because we might mean the 10 commandments, or the 613 mitzvot, or the entire Pentateuch.

FWIW, I wasn't speaking of the whole Pentateuch.

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, the way I see it is the New Covenant in Christ is the first in the Mind of God, i.e. lamb slain from the foundation of the world. However, all the others are shadows of the original with the only exception to the promises of God to all of which must require faith to be believed not law.

Again, the language that you have used does not reflect the language that Christ used when He refreshed the Salvation Covenant and the "Law." Without the "Law," mankind has no gauge by which he can determine whether or not he, i.e. mankind, has sinned, by tuning away from God.

The sin of turning away from God is like having a line in the sand which disappears as the winds of time hides the line in the sand and we step over that line in the sand without realising that we have. When we step over this line in the sand, we lose our moral compass, and the "moral" aspects of the Law reveals to us that we have actually turned away from God and begun to act God like in our own strength.

The traveller encourages us to turn away from God, to become like him, in our quest to become more like God.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I see the system of sacrifices being part of the Levitical priesthood, rather than The Law.

There's always a little weirdness when we say The Law, because we might mean the 10 commandments, or the 613 mitzvot, or the entire Pentateuch.

FWIW, I wasn't speaking of the whole Pentateuch.

Have a look at Hebrews 9 - I think you will find the first covenant included all aspects of the Law and order of sacrifices.

9 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. 2 For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place. Heb 9:1–2.

To fully grasp the significance of Christ’s work, one must first understand the things that foreshadowed him @Jay Ross. The term “earthly” stands in contrast to “heavenly” (Heb 8:5; cf. Heb. 9:11, 24).

Again, the language that you have used does not reflect the language that Christ used when He refreshed the Salvation Covenant and the "Law." Without the "Law," mankind has no gauge by which he can determine whether or not he, i.e. mankind, has sinned, by tuning away from God.

The sin of turning away from God is like having a line in the sand which disappears as the winds of time hides the line in the sand and we step over that line in the sand without realising that we have. When we step over this line in the sand, we lose our moral compass, and the "moral" aspects of the Law reveals to us that we have actually turned away from God and begun to act God like in our own strength.

The traveller encourages us to turn away from God, to become like him, in our quest to become more like God.

Colossians 2:16–17: "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ."

Also echoed in Hebrews 10:1:

"For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near."

Grasping the deficiencies of the Law should naturally lead one to the substance and true form that those shadows pointed toward. The Torah was designed with this very purpose, to direct hearts to the greater reality. Now that Christ has been revealed in the flesh, the Law’s enforcement has been set aside, for its purpose as a tutor has been fulfilled.