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The Law Came To Break The Curse Of Adam "death"

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by bud02, Nov 6, 2010.

  1. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    I want to discus Romans Ch 5 verse 12-21. Agree or disagree. Did men inherent a sin, or the result of sin, death when Adam ate of the tree.
    There are reasons why it is important to make this distinction and as always properly dividing the word of God effects your understanding of other verses.

    Romans 5 http://www.biblegate...+5&version=NKJV

    I am sorry to tell you this bleak story, but it is true. Let's read vs 16a Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgement followed one sin and brought condemnation? When Adam sinned, what followed? Judgment followed. How many sins? One sin. That means even if you sin once, under the law you cant escape God's judgement. You don't have to break many laws to receive judgement and condemnation, you have already broken many laws, right? In Adam we were already judged and condemned to death. So whats the deal, you have to include the law to understand the full meaning, the law was not spoken by God until Moses just as Paul says in verse 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, As soon as God spoke the words of the 10 Commandments everything changed, sin was defined. These were now offenses, violations of Gods spoken word, that work against the divine will.
    Isaiah 55
    [sup]11[/sup] So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
    It shall not return to Me void,
    But it shall accomplish what I please,
    And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

    You see when God spoke the words it became apart of creation, just as He spoke all creation into being, He also spoke the law into being. So death reigned to all men because of one mans sin, the violation of the one command, until the law was spoken to Moses.
    Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. What happened between Adam and Christ the law came. So the Messiah could fulfill it "the law " overcoming death.

    The Law came to break the curse of Adam "death"

    What Paul is saying, is death reigned, He never said we were born with sin but rather Adams curse of death was imputed on all men. And all those until the law came were condemned to death. even over those who had not sinned. The law came to set a standard; to over come the unconditional curse of death to all men; threw Adams sin. If the law had not come we would all still be condemned to death by Adams single sin. Do you understand now? The law came so that each man would personally transgress the law, to set a conditional standard for all men, so that men would no longer be under Adams cures of death, but would now be held accountable for their own sin. Jesus fulfilled the law. All men were condemned to death before the law came for Adams single sin. The law came and now you condemn yourself in your own sin. There I think I have put it in words you can understand.

    So now it is true as Paul says all have sinned. But no man knew what sin was before the law came.
    All men have sinned; therefore, death has passed upon all men (Romans 5:12).
    Do you now see the meaning in these words? ( therefore, death has passed upon all men ) Since the law all men have been responsible for their own sin and its result, death.

    [sup]Other verses that indicate death was the inherent condition not sin.

    [/sup]
    Romans 7
    [sup]7[/sup] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet. [sup]8[/sup] But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. [sup]9[/sup] I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. [sup]10[/sup] And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. [sup]11[/sup] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. [sup]12[/sup] Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

    1 Corinthians 15
    [sup]21[/sup] For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. [sup]22[/sup] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
    [sup]

    [/sup]
     
  2. religusnut

    religusnut New Member

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    Sin entered in. It is a person place or thing....... Now when sin entered in so did death and disease among other things.

    I would call sin "inherited" as not so much consequences being inherited.
     
  3. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Sin is inherited because death is the punishment of sin.

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  4. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    My friend Selene, let me share with you my thoughts. The main reason I come to forums is its spiritual exercise, so one man sharpens another. Now I know that this does not only apply to men that agree but to men that also disagree. Its like fencing two men deliver cuts and blows , the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God, thus deliver parere one anothers swords. Now these matches lead me in the Spirit to a deeper understanding of the faith within me. The stronger the opponent the greater the need to understand the proper handling of my sword. I have been in this match before sin vs death but this time the Lord has caused me to learn some new moves, as He has from the beginning Hes my tutor my mentor.

    Our match began with child salvation in which your Catholic faith says all men are inherent with Adams sin at birth. Which then also leads to Mary and the necessity as your church teaches, her need to be separated from the inherent condition of mankind to bring forth the "Son" "Christ" "Messiah" "true vine" " the Lamb of God" the word became flesh and dwelt among us. Now I agree that no sin was found in Jesus, but I also believe that Jesus shared in our flesh the same imperfect flesh we are all born with, so where does that lead us.

    In Hebrews we see that Jesus shared in every way our nature Hebrews 2:14 Now this being the case it leads to the implications in John teaches us about false prophets. All false prophets teach a different Christ. The spirit of anti-christ teaches that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh, 1 John 4:2-3 now I understand this to mean the flesh of all men just as Paul says in Hebrews, so John also begins his gospel with, the word became flesh. At this point I usually consider the match over and leave the out come to the Judge. But this time my tutor has spurred me on. To unveil an even greater truth. Now I proceed with revelations with caution making absolutely sure the conform to scripture, it is not in conflict with other verses and if so, what is it I don't understand. Unlike others that tend to ignore apparent scriptural conflicts but continue to use the move in their match, allows me to deliver the fatal blow. As far as I'm concerned you have lost your head twice already, one that Jesus came in the same flesh as you and I. An two, teaching Jesus did not is a grave false teaching.

    The Law came to break the curse of Adam "death"
    Now let me further explain what I see in the statement I made. I know there is a condition that all creation fell into when Adam sinned. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; Just as the creation eagerly awaits the reveling of the sons of God. Romans 8:19-21 I have been looking and reading commentary on Romans 5:12-21 for a couple of days and I have found one that I believe express my thoughts.

    As this person so well describes our fallen nature it does not constitute born with a sin, and as Paul teaches death reigned from Adam to Moses. Simply because our condition was no longer compatible with God. As Paul also says sin was not imputed. It didn't need to be death reigned because of our condition, all creations condition changed. Is that to say all creation sinned? no but the head of creation did "Adam" their for subjecting all creation to a curse. Now this got me thinking what part did the law play into all of this. There are two things to consider one is Paul said, Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam. The key point to me is even over those who had not sinned, followed by this statement from Romans 7 Romans 7:7 The seconds is what part did the law play in all of this. It was impossible to sin when there was only one command or law given from Adam to Moses, but our condtion was still incompatible with God so death reigned to all creation from one sin. Now think about this if Jesus had come to earth at this time before the law was given He could not have over come death. Let me explain, there was no provision made, the curse was unconditional just as the promise to Abraham was unconditional. Death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam. The Law brought conditions. An exception to the curse, God spoke the 10 commandments, in keeping them you could over come the cures. The road leading home was now in place, the road that Jesus walked in the same flesh as you and I. And Again, secondly, the law came so that the transgression may increase. With the coming of the Law all men are now subjuct to their own conduct, their own personal sins. We are still incompatible with God because of Adams sin, death still reigns, but now we can not blame Adam a provision is made in the coming of the Law. The opening of the door if you will, the provision or way for salvation that would be completed by Jesus, in our fallen flesh. He fulfill the commandments over coming the curse. Now all that believe in Him shall be saved. Now that is the gospel message. You see how sin can not be inherent, if it were the Jesus you know and teach could not have shared in our flesh. But teaching Mary was preserved from mans condition or became more that human is not the answer. The answer is in the law.

    Another verse that has been reveled to me by Saber Truth Ezekiel 18:20 it says (the children do not share the sins of their parents)




     
  5. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hello Bud,

    As I said under the thread of Child Salvation, there are two definitions of original sin: 1) the sin committed by Adam and Eve and 2) the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam. It is the second definition that all children were born with. According to St. Augustine "the deliberate sin of the first man is the cause of original sin" (De nupt. et concup., II, xxvi, 43). It is the hereditary stain that is dealt with here. St. Augustine was one of the Early Church Fathers who spoke about "original sin."

    I agree with you that no sin was found in Jesus and that Jesus shared in our flesh and humanity; however, as you know, Jesus' flesh is perfect and without sin. Since you believe that Mary is full of sin, then the question one should ask is how then was Jesus able to acquire a pure flesh without sin from a flesh full of sin? The Bible's teaching has always been that evil (sin) cannot beget good and that a bad or evil tree cannot bear good fruit (Matthew 7:17-18 and Luke 6:43).

    In the Old Testament, did you ever wonder why God gave such specific and detailed instructions on how to build the Ark of the Covenant? Did you know that God told the Israelites that they must use the most purist gold (Exodus 25:11) to make the Ark of the Covenant because that would be the dwelling place of God. God dwelled inside the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25:8), which was made of the finest materials and purist gold. This is why the instructions on building the Ark of Covenant is very detailed and specific down to how many inches it should be . Where God dwelled, nothing but the finest and purist material should be used. Well, Christ is God, who dwelled in Mary's womb for 9 months. In the same way, Mary must also be pure since she was set aside to carry the Christ child. God is not going to put His sacrificial Lamb (Christ) in a filthy unclean vessel to give to mankind. Christ is God and where God dwells, it would be a dwelling place of purity.

    We know that God is almighty and powerful enough to set aside Mary and create her without any original sin by applying Christ's redemption on the cross at the moment of her conception. After all, God is not held by the boundaries of space and time. Christ died for you 2000 years ago. His gift of redemption was able to reach you despite that you were not born 2000 years ago, and His gift of redemption will reach all those who are not yet born. The gift of salvation is for all sinners past, present, and future. Since God is not held by the boundaries of space and time, we know that He is powerful enough to take His Son's redemptive blood on the cross and apply it to Mary's salvation at the moment of her conception so that she would be born a "new Eve" and not have the original sin. My brother, why do you limit God's power to conform to your human logic? Where is your faith in God?

    The Apostle John said, "Whosoever is born of God, committeth not sin: for his seed abideth in him, and he can not sin, because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9). St. John says that those who has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them will be transformed into a new creature whereby by the grace of God, he/she will be able to avoid sin for with God all things are possible. Well, if you believe this in the Bible, why is it so difficult to believe that Mary was also pure? After all, did she not have the seed of God growing in her womb? Did she not have the living and physical God dwelling inside her and the Holy Spirit overshadowing her? If the Holy Spirt and God's grace can help us avoid sin as St. John says, what do you think the living and physical God growing inside a person can do? Do you honestly think that Mary would sin having the living and physical God growing inside her womb?

    My brother, the law was given to Moses so that we would know who we are....sinners. The law cannot save us. Faith or God's grace can save us. From the time of Adam to Moses, those who did not sin are actually referring to infants and very young children. Infants and young children who die do not have any personal sins. What sin does a baby commit? However, as you see that even those infants and young children who are pure from personal sins cannot conquer death. They remained dead. They did not resurrect despite the fact that the Bible says that they did not sin. Death was able to hold them because of the original sin that was passed down from Adam. Jesus was able to conquer death and ressurrect from the dead because He did not have any personal sins nor the original sin passed down from Adam. He was absolutely pure from all sin.

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  6. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Sounds right, but there's more to it, especially involving our Lord Jesus Christ.

    The Hebrew word 'towrah' (law) means to flow like a river and specifically to point, like an arrow. God's law is to point to The Saviour Jesus Christ. God's law convicts us of sin to show that we ALL require The Saviour (Gal.3:22).

    It's true that the law condemns us all to death for sin (even prior to the giving of the law). But the purpose is so as to offer us Salvation by Faith on The Saviour Jesus Christ Who defeated death for us upon the cross (Hebrews 2:14).
     
  7. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    So what did man inherit from Adam a sin or death?

    As for (even prior to the law). Can you produce scripture to support your claim?

    Romans 4:15
    Romans 3:20
    Romans 5:13

    If we look at Abraham and the Lords words we see how Abraham knew what the will of God was.
    Most translate the word chosen as known. For I have known him. Thats how Abraham knew before the law.
    Hebrews%Genesis 18:19

    Not to look at verse 12 Romans 5:12
    If you accept your interpretation of this verse your definition applies. It's true that the law condemns us all to death for sin (even prior to the giving of the law). but that's not what is being said, its in conflict with these verses Romans 5:13 ; Romans 4:15 and Romans 3:20 also implies a knowledge of sin threw the law. So then is God just in applying accountability to men for sin, with out knowledge or a definition? You should know that the word of God is power. When God spoke the law to Moses the 10 commandments it "the Word went out in power" It changed all creation, just as when He said Genesis 3:17-19. All the earth was changed or cursed.

    The blue part is pre law and the red is post law. now it fits the other verses.
    [sup]12[/sup] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

    I dont disagree with this bold part did I say differently? or are you simply pointing out everything the bibles says that I didn't in this post?

    Same with this comment. I might point out to you that Jesus never sinned, so what do these remarks have to do with the topic? Is it simply to make yourself heard? Some people would consider such remarks to mean they were my implication, which it is not. Or do you simply bury your objection to my statement in several truths? Its that kind of reply's to topics that leads away, or implies the poster does not share those views. They have no bearing on the subject.

    If you disagree lets see your scriptural evidence. Something more than your simple objection surrounded by truths.
     
  8. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    I missed replying to your post.
    It looks like you have come a long way your above reply stops just short of admitting that death reigned. But I see you insist on believing that Jesus did not share the same flesh as you and I. In that I believe you make a mistake. As you know he who denies Jesus came in the flesh, this is a spirit of anti-christ.


    To this reply here.
    Must be nice to have a contingency plan but the end result is the same you deny Jesus shared in are same likeness. So just what is this "STAIN"? Looks to be death to me.
    As I said before we are not brothers.You believe in a different Jesus than I do.
     
  9. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    The law was given to the Jews, so they could see that it was impossible to achieve salvation through your works. The law requires you to do things, which only Jesus was able to achive. The gentiles never had teh law, so how could they sin, it was written.

    Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    I dont live by the law, it was never mine, I live by Grace and in the knowledge that it is God who forgives and cleans. I of myself can do nothing, I could never justify myself by living by the law, i will far short.

    In His Love
     
  10. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    To give you a better perspective I started this thread out of a conversation about sin, then whether all men were inherent with it " from Adam" or its penalty, death. Which also lead to viewing how the relationship, of the coming of the law played in all this. So the topic is rather misleading, I hope the history of the tread helps.
    Rom 6:9
     
  11. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hello Bud,

    Could you show where in my post I said that Jesus did not share the same flesh as you and I?

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  12. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    If you believe in Marys Immaculate Conception you do.
    You make it pretty clear Mary was preserved from the condition or same flesh as the rest of mankind, the inherent condition from Adam and Eve.
    The problem is you have no scripture that supports it, and in fact it meets the definition of 1 John 4:2


    I'll do you one more. Who is this Gen 18:1-20 ? Notice now that the LORD has a body, Abraham washes his feet and says rest yourselves, then they eat, its a full functioning body the LORD is in. Just like Jesus when He cooked breakfast for the disciples after He had risen in John. The difference is Jesus did it in our flesh. The inherent condition from Adam was death not a sin.
    Now why did Jesus need to be born of a virgin? Why didn't He just walk around like He did before Abraham. and say I am perfect and without sin I offer myself for these.
    The answer should be clear because He is in a glorified body, different than yours and mine, He was born of a virgin so that could walk in the same flesh as you and I. Heb 2:14 & Heb 2:17

    If you don't believe that. Then as I said before you believe in a different Jesus than I do, John makes it clear in 1 John 4 [sup]2[/sup] By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, [sup]3[/sup] and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

     
  13. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    My brother, Mary came from Adam and Eve. Did you not know that when God first created Adam and Eve, they did not have any sin? Sin is not part of God's plan and was never part of His plan. Sin came about through our own free will. But when God created Adam and Eve, there was no sin in them. Mary is the same way. Why? Because she was to carry the Christ child in her womb. And as I said, "where God dwells, it is a dwelling place of purity. Let me ask you these questions....1) Do you believe that God is going to put His Son in a dirty, filthy, unclean vessel? and 2) Do you believe that Jesus came from sin and was born of sin?


    My brother, it is YOU who stated that Jesus's body is different than yours and mine. We believe that Jesus has a human body exactly like Adam and Eve BEFORE they sinned. Jesus' body did not become glorified until AFTER His resurrection.

    John 7:39 Now this he said of the Spirit which they should receive, who believed in him: for as yet the Spirit was not given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

    In Christ,
    Selene


     
  14. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    Then you wont mind explaining these verses then Heb 2:14 & Heb 2:17
    Just how was He made like his brothers in every way. If your interpretation is true then just where does it say Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin? Verse please
    I also notice you avoided the question about the Abraham's visitor the LORD, am I to presume He was in some rage tag kind of flesh?

    And by the way just where do I say Jesus body was different than yours or mine :blink: followed by this [We believe that Jesus has a human body exactly like Adam and Eve BEFORE they sinned. So is that what it says in Hebrews]? So just where do I find that in the scriptures?
     
  15. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hello Bud,
    When God made Adam and Eve, they were human, but they were human without sin. Mary was preserved from original sin because that came from the Apostolic Tradition that was handed down to us 2000 years ago. Mary was just like Adam and Eve BEFORE they sinned; therefore, that makes her one flesh with them. Sin is the filth that covered us.

    My brother, the reason it is difficult for you to understand is because I have always taken the Catholic viewpoint while you take the Protestant viewpoint. The Protestant viewpoint is that mankind is filth and when Christ died on the cross, His blood washed away the sins of filthy man and turned him into snow white or into a sparkling diamond.

    The Catholic viewpoint is the opposite. We believe that mankind is snow white or a precious sparkling diamond because He was created in the image of God. What is in the image of God is beautiful and pure, but when we sin, we covered ourselves with filth. Sin is the filth. So, when Christ died on the cross, His blood washed away the filth that covered us and then one can see the snow white or the sparkling diamond beneath it. That was the flesh that Christ took....an image of God that has nothing to do with sin because Adam and Eve were created in His image without sin in the first place.

    Below is your own quote, and I placed in bold where you said that Jesus had a different body than yours and mine. You believed that His body was glorified at the time of birth, which is incorrect. Christ was glorified after His resurrection (John 7:39). You say that Christ was born of a virgin so that He could walk in the same flesh as you and I. He was born of a virgin to show that He was indeed the Son of God in that He did not have a human father.

    Also, you did not answer my questions. These were my questions. 1) Do you believe that God is going to put His Son in a dirty, filthy, unclean vessel? and 2) Do you believe that Jesus came from sin and was born of sin?

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  16. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    As far as my quote, If you really read my post you will find I was speaking of Gen 18. When the LORD came to Abraham. But I don't have much time until tomorrow or Wednesday.
    Second your accusation that I said Jesus came in a different flesh; was before I even posted the quote you gave as evidence and as I said LOOK I'm speaking of Gen 18.. So thats two strikes for not following the conversation or imply something that is not true. The reason for showing Gen 18 was to show you the LORD was walking, having His feet washed and eating with Abraham long before He was born from a virgin. I know some of this information my short circuit your understanding and cause you make the understandable mistakes as I just pointed out. above.

    You never answered the Hebrews question.

    And I believe Jesus shared in the same flesh as all men. Now you can use all the discriptive adjectives you like but thats what Paul says in Hebrews.

    As far as tradition, Marys Immaculate Conception being 2000 years old means very little, in the first place none of the NT letters mention it. In the second place Johns warns us of this very thing 2000 years ago. So yes your tradition was being taught 2000 years ago it certainly doesn't mean your right. As you can see below Johns says it happening now 2000 years ago.

    Now look at another reference to the spirit of anti christ. in chapter 2
    What does John say here, that they were with them "John and the Disciples" but what did they do? John says, they went out that they might be made manifest.
    So where does that leave the boast that the fathers of your church can be traced back to the time of the Apostles. Absolutely no where If you teach a different Christ. Even the logical thinking man could conclude that one the Apostels never taught what you teach as tradition, second that John warns us of these impostors 2000 years ago. Teaching that Jesus did not come in the flesh, by Makeing Mary a new creation "EVE" sinless and without stain of original sin is nothing more than a clever trick to beguile the weak into denying Jesus never shared in the same flesh as mankind the very reason He came in the flesh born of a virgin in the first place. Look at Gen 18 God didn't even need to be born to come in the flesh, But I asure you the flesh He appeared in to Moses was not the same as ours. I got to go mon and tues are bad times for me to spend on the web.
     
  17. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    My brother, nowhere in any of my posts did I ever say that Jesus did NOT come down in the flesh. You were the one who stated that His flesh is "different" from you and mine. YOU were the one who used the word "different" when comparing Jesus' flesh with ours.

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
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