The Law

[th1b.taylor]

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

When Jesus answered the question about what was the greatest or the first commandment He answered by summarizing the Ten Commandments with just two. The first commandment Jesus gave us is the summation of the first four and the second is the sum of the remaining six.

The most foolish argument I have encountered in the years of my ministry is that the Christian, not being under the Law, should ignore it. First, there is what is recorded of what Jesus said of the Law in Matthew 5:17-19, during the Sermon on the Mount. He told us that the least speck of the Law and the word of the prophets will not pass until everything in them is completed.

Couple this very popular heresy of ignoring the Law of God with the heresy taught about forgiveness and you have the formula for admission to Hell. Still in the Sermon in chapter 7:21-27, we find the truth of what I have said here. In John 14:15 we find Jesus giving us our orders to obey His commands and in John 1:1-3 we see that Jesus is not only the God of the Old Testament but that there is nothing created that has not been created by Him. This man, Jesus, is the Omnipotent God of all creation.

Now, about those Ten Commandments, there are at least two, very, important things to consider here. First, these commandments are the most accurate and beautiful word picture of our Most Holy God. When we study the passages of Exodus 20 we learn just how holy God is. And as Christians, it is our duty to daily conform our, very, lives to the image of Jesus. (Romans 12:1-2) And second, the Christians need to keep these laws in the fore of their minds because these are our code of conduct, the conduct God wants to see from His Children.

 

[haz]

Hi th1b.Taylor,

Are you suggesting righteousness and holiness is determined by how well we obey the 10 commandments?

 

[Axehead]

And as Christians, it is our duty to daily conform our, very, lives to the image of Jesus.

No one can conform their lives to the image of Jesus. Christianity is not about emulating, imitating, mimicing, or modeling our lives after Jesus. That is impossible! Christianity is Christ and Christ is Christianity and as such, He must live in us by His Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ. He conforms us to His image as we yield to Him in all things. As we submit to His leading and bring our will into harmony with His will, we will be changed from glory to glory and faith to faith. The Christian who has died with Christ and risen with Him in newness of life, is beyond jurisdiction by the Law. We don't walk by regulations or rules or a list of commandments. We walk by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, which is relationship with Him (as I previously alluded to). He will lead us in our speech, our thoughts, and our actions. You cannot say, "Ok, God I see how it is done and I will take it from here".

You did not know that you cannot conform yourself to the image of Christ?

Axehead

 

[jiggyfly]

Good post Axehead, there seem to be several here at CB, whamboozled by religion into thinking that the "law" is still our guide.

 

[goodshepard55]

Great post Axehead

 

[Axehead]

Good post Axehead, there seem to be several here at CB, whamboozled by religion into thinking that the "law" is still our guide.

Thanks Jiggy,

Stony tablets are for stony hearts, how could they be our guide when we have a living Shepherd.

Axehead

The Mosaic Law was never meant to be permanent, but only temporary. Gal. 3:19 - Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.

But, someone might ask, “What about Matthew 5:17-19?”
Matt. 5:17-19 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The Mosaic Law did not end with His life, but with His death. As long as Jesus was still alive, He was under the Law of Moses. His statement in Matt. 5:17-19 was made while He was still alive. When Jesus said, “It is finished,” the Mosaic Law became inoperative. When Jesus died, all the Law was accomplished and therefore no longer needed. Since the Law of Moses has been rendered inoperative, does that mean that there is no use for the Law at all? No, the Law still has the power to reveal the holy character of God and the sinfulness of man. There continues to be value in teaching the Law and the Ten Commandments since they are in the Bible and as such are profitable, II Tim. 3:16

Axehead

 

[jiggyfly]

Thanks Jiggy,

Stony tablets are for stony hearts, how could they be our guide when we have a living Shepherd.

Axehead

The Mosaic Law was never meant to be permanent, but only temporary. Gal. 3:19 - Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.

But, someone might ask, “What about Matthew 5:17-19?”
Matt. 5:17-19 - "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The Mosaic Law did not end with His life, but with His death. As long as Jesus was still alive, He was under the Law of Moses. His statement in Matt. 5:17-19 was made while He was still alive. When Jesus said, “It is finished,” the Mosaic Law became inoperative. When Jesus died, all the Law was accomplished and therefore no longer needed. Since the Law of Moses has been rendered inoperative, does that mean that there is no use for the Law at all? No, the Law still has the power to reveal the holy character of God and the sinfulness of man. There continues to be value in teaching the Law and the Ten Commandments since they are in the Bible and as such are profitable, II Tim. 3:16

Axehead

Ahh but as Paul instructs the Corinthians, the old covenant system which includes the ten commandments is far less glorious than the new, and in comparison the old is really not glorious at all. HolySpirit is here and working among us, convicting the world of their sins, drawing them to Jesus and transforming believers on the inside. IMO teaching the observance of the Law (which includes the ten commandments) is no different then teaching the observance of any other part of the old covenant.

Yes I do agree that there is a benefit to reading and learning about the old covenant and the law and practices within, and the benefit is for us to avoid trying to do anything to gain any favor or righteousness from God but rather accept and depend on Christ's work alone in making us holy righteous and completely blameless before God. If we have truly entered God's rest than we have stopped and abandoned all religious works completely and become dependent on God's work through His Son's death. Tis why Paul purposed to know nothing except Christ crucified and resurrected.

 

[Axehead]

Ahh but as Paul instructs the Corinthians, the old covenant system which includes the ten commandments is far less glorious than the new, and in comparison the old is really not glorious at all. HolySpirit is here and working among us, convicting the world of their sins, drawing them to Jesus and transforming believers on the inside. IMO teaching the observance of the Law (which includes the ten commandments) is no different then teaching the observance of any other part of the old covenant.

Yes I do agree that there is a benefit to reading and learning about the old covenant and the law and practices within, and the benefit is for us to avoid trying to do anything to gain any favor or righteousness from God but rather accept and depend on Christ's work alone in making us holy righteous and completely blameless before God. If we have truly entered God's rest than we have stopped and abandoned all religious works completely and become dependent on God's work through His Son's death. Tis why Paul purposed to know nothing except Christ crucified and resurrected.

Amen, Jiggyfly!

 

[Axehead]

Law isn't just the Mosaic Law; "law" is anything humans can do--any human effort apart from abiding in Christ. So when Paul writes in Romans 6 that we aren't under law, but under grace, that means that we aren't under ANY sort of human works--even how much we believe, how faithful we are, or anything else. It's all about God giving, and us receiving.

Axhead

 

[haz]

No one can conform their lives to the image of Jesus. Christianity is not about emulating, imitating, mimicing, or modeling our lives after Jesus. That is impossible! Christianity is Christ and Christ is Christianity and as such, He must live in us by His Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ. He conforms us to His image as we yield to Him in all things. As we submit to His leading and bring our will into harmony with His will, we will be changed from glory to glory and faith to faith. The Christian who has died with Christ and risen with Him in newness of life, is beyond jurisdiction by the Law. We don't walk by regulations or rules or a list of commandments. We walk by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, which is relationship with Him (as I previously alluded to). He will lead us in our speech, our thoughts, and our actions. You cannot say, "Ok, God I see how it is done and I will take it from here".

You did not know that you cannot conform yourself to the image of Christ?

Axehead

Hi Axehead,

Whilst I agree in general with your post above, I suspect we have differences in understanding what it really means.

As you are from the same church as Episkopos, perhaps you can explain what his doctrinal claims mean in light of your post above.

Epi claimed that he sinned and that anyone who sins is not abiding in Christ.
He also claimed that the law is a gauge that determines our righteousness.

Which law does he refer to?
Do you, like Epi, still sin (transgress the law, 1John 3:4) and therefore not abide in Christ?

thanks

 

[dragonfly]

Hello haz,

'Epi claimed that he sinned' does not portray that you asked him if he keeps 'the law', and he said, 'no'. From there, you brought in the 10 commandments and have pursued this topic relentlessly from discussion to discussion, while no-one yet knows whether you believe the New Testament teaches that the '10 commandments' should be kept as part of the Old Covenant or the New, or for that matter, be kept at all.


Axehead,

The Mosaic Law did not end with His life, but with His death. As long as Jesus was still alive, He was under the Law of Moses. His statement in Matt. 5:17-19 was made while He was still alive. When Jesus said, “It is finished,” the Mosaic Law became inoperative. When Jesus died, all the Law was accomplished and therefore no longer needed. Since the Law of Moses has been rendered inoperative, does that mean that there is no use for the Law at all? No, the Law still has the power to reveal the holy character of God and the sinfulness of man. There continues to be value in teaching the Law and the Ten Commandments since they are in the Bible and as such are profitable, II Tim. 3:16

This sentence, 'The Mosaic Law did not end with His life, but with His death', struck me like a revelation, even though I already knew it; so thank you.

Law isn't just the Mosaic Law; "law" is anything humans can do--any human effort apart from abiding in Christ. So when Paul writes in Romans 6 that we aren't under law, but under grace, that means that we aren't under ANY sort of human works--even how much we believe, how faithful we are, or anything else. It's all about God giving, and us receiving.

I just want to mention that there are number of other laws mentioned in the New Testament, (KJV) and they all matter at one point or another. By 'laws', I mean, binding principles which God has set to run the way they do.

 

[Axehead]

Hello haz,

'Epi claimed that he sinned' does not portray that you asked him if he keeps 'the law', and he said, 'no'. From there, you brought in the 10 commandments and have pursued this topic relentlessly from discussion to discussion, while no-one yet knows whether you believe the New Testament teaches that the '10 commandments' should be kept as part of the Old Covenant or the New, or for that matter, be kept at all.

Axehead,

This sentence, 'The Mosaic Law did not end with His life, but with His death', struck me like a revelation, even though I already knew it; so thank you.


I just want to mention that there are number of other laws mentioned in the New Testament, (KJV) and they all matter at one point or another. By 'laws', I mean, binding principles which God has set to run the way they do.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The works that we do and the works that last and are eternal are *only* the works that are done by and through the Spirit and not the flesh. They are AUTHORED by the Spirit of God. That comes from abiding in Him.

The only law that we operate by right now, is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Granted, you cannot break a speeding law and then presume to tell the Officer who pulls you over that you are "not under any law" except Romans 8:2. I mean you can try it, but I wouldn't think you would be successful.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And what of the Christian that walks after the flesh? (breaking the law of the Spirit)?

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


Notice that Paul is contrasting "life everlasting" with "reaping corruption".

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Axehead,

The only law that we operate by right now, is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

... by the law of faith, I believe. ;) Eph 1:19, 20

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

The most foolish argument I have encountered in the years of my ministry is that the Christian, not being under the Law, should ignore it. First, there is what is recorded of what Jesus said of the Law in Matthew 5:17-19, during the Sermon on the Mount. He told us that the least speck of the Law and the word of the prophets will not pass until everything in them is completed.

I think we have to look at this in the big picture ... ie; God sent the Prophets , He gave The Law , He sent the Savior , and everything will come to fulfillment some day in the future.

In that context "the Law and the word of the prophets will not pass until everything in them is completed."

The law serves a purpose , one of which is to show us we cannot keep it all perfectly .... thus our requirement for a Saviour. Hope that makes sense.

In God's sense of (perfect) justice .... the law must remain to justify Him sending a savior (based on his mercy) (not based on our ability to keep the Law).

Another way to say it is that if the law was removed today .... then the requirement for a Savior would collapse as well.

Thus the Law "remains" but it's requirements are fulfilled for us by Jesus who paid the price for our shortcomings.

 

[haz]

Hello haz,
'Epi claimed that he sinned' does not portray that you asked him if he keeps 'the law', and he said, 'no'. From there, you brought in the 10 commandments and have pursued this topic relentlessly from discussion to discussion, while no-one yet knows whether you believe the New Testament teaches that the '10 commandments' should be kept as part of the Old Covenant or the New, or for that matter, be kept at all.
Axehead,
This sentence, 'The Mosaic Law did not end with His life, but with His death', struck me like a revelation, even though I already knew it; so thank you.
I just want to mention that there are number of other laws mentioned in the New Testament, (KJV) and they all matter at one point or another. By 'laws', I mean, binding principles which God has set to run the way they do.

Hi dragonfly and Axehead,

The 10 commandments have no bearing on the righteousness of those in Christ. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, Rom 10:4. The question you ask as to whether the 10 commandments apply under the NC is irrelevant.

As Axehead mentioned, we are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Axehead asked: "And what of the Christian that walks after the flesh? (breaking the law of the Spirit)?"

To try to understand what you guys are trying to say, what is your doctrine's description of walking in the flesh/breaking the law of the Spirit?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

Your reply is much appreciated by me.

what is your doctrine's description of walking in the flesh

Great question. Do you mean, is it always sin if we walk in the flesh? (I'm wondering what you mean by 'flesh', now.)

 

[Episkopos]

We must look at laws as reality. If we walk off a cliff...we fall...because there is a law (or reality) we call gravity.

We cannot make ourselves immune from reality. Most doctrines are trying to do just that...escape reality. As in...NOT ME!!!! I'm special. So most doctrine is used for a self-justification that absolves them from the truth (another way of saying reality). religion is truly like a reality altering drug that makes people believe things that are not there. The world assumes that believers are drugged...away from reality. Unfortunately so many are actually like the world says they are...which takes away from the actual truth of a spiritual reality that does overcome the natural tendencies.

There is a law called "the law of sin and death". This is also a reality....if we sin we die. This law is applied the same way gravity does...no favourites.

There is now a law that is called..."life in Christ Jesus". This law, when entered into, overcomes the law (reality) of sin and death through a new power (grace) that was released by the new creation through the resurrection of Christ. We enter into this law IN Christ through a surrendered faith and crying out to God. GOD translates us into the kingdom (Zion) of His Son where this law is in effect. When we live from there we overcome the law of sin and death IN TRUTH. We really walk in the light and the love of God. The spiritual dimension is the 4th dimension in HIS love. We cannot sin as long as we abide in Christ. Can a man fall from the sky if he is seated in a heavenly place in an Boing 747? Wouldn't he have to jump out of the plane to be affected by gravity? So in the same way as long as we remain seated in Christ...we are not affected by the reality that affects men who walk in themselves.

It is like this. Men cannot fly! This is a reality that humans are subject to. So how would explain that people fly everyday all over the world???? Try explaining to someone who has never seen a plane (or been in one) that men can overcome the reality of non-flight through another law...aero-dynamics. :)

So here is another reality..."all men fall short of a full obedience and sin" . So how do you explain grace to someone who thinks that it is powerless to overcome the basic laws of sin and death? Grace is the access to a means of overcoming the laws of this world. Grace enables us to sit in Christ who knows no sin. With God ALL things are possible. In Christ ALL are holy.

 

[seekandfind]

We must look at laws as reality. If we walk off a cliff...we fall...because there is a law (or reality) we call gravity.

We cannot make ourselves immune from reality. Most doctrines are trying to do just that...escape reality. As in...NOT ME!!!! I'm special. So most doctrine is used for a self-justification that absolves them from the truth (another way of saying reality). religion is truly like a reality altering drug that makes people believe things that are not there. The world assumes that believers are drugged...away from reality. Unfortunately so many are actually like the world says they are...which takes away from the actual truth of a spiritual reality that does overcome the natural tendencies.

There is a law called "the law of sin and death". This is also a reality....if we sin we die. This law is applied the same way gravity does...no favourites.

There is now a law that is called..."life in Christ Jesus". This law, when entered into, overcomes the law (reality) of sin and death through a new power (grace) that was released by the new creation through the resurrection of Christ. We enter into this law IN Christ through a surrendered faith and crying out to God. GOD translates us into the kingdom (Zion) of His Son where this law is in effect. When we live from there we overcome the law of sin and death IN TRUTH. We really walk in the light and the love of God. The spiritual dimension is the 4th dimension in HIS love. We cannot sin as long as we abide in Christ. Can a man fall from the sky if he is seated in a heavenly place in an Boing 747? Wouldn't he have to jump out of the plane to be affected by gravity? So in the same way as long as we remain seated in Christ...we are not affected by the reality that affects men who walk in themselves.

It is like this. Men cannot fly! This is a reality that humans are subject to. So how would explain that people fly everyday all over the world???? Try explaining to someone who has never seen a plane (or been in one) that men can overcome the reality of non-flight through another law...aero-dynamics. :)

So here is another reality..."all men fall short of a full obedience and sin" . So how do you explain grace to someone who thinks that it is powerless to overcome the basic laws of sin and death? Grace is the access to a means of overcoming the laws of this world. Grace enables us to sit in Christ who knows no sin. With God ALL things are possible. In Christ ALL are holy.

We must look at laws as reality. If we walk off a cliff...we fall...because there is a law (or reality) we call gravity.

We cannot make ourselves immune from reality. Most doctrines are trying to do just that...escape reality. As in...NOT ME!!!! I'm special. So most doctrine is used for a self-justification that absolves them from the truth (another way of saying reality). religion is truly like a reality altering drug that makes people believe things that are not there. The world assumes that believers are drugged...away from reality. Unfortunately so many are actually like the world says they are...which takes away from the actual truth of a spiritual reality that does overcome the natural tendencies.

There is a law called "the law of sin and death". This is also a reality....if we sin we die. This law is applied the same way gravity does...no favourites.

There is now a law that is called..."life in Christ Jesus". This law, when entered into, overcomes the law (reality) of sin and death through a new power (grace) that was released by the new creation through the resurrection of Christ. We enter into this law IN Christ through a surrendered faith and crying out to God. GOD translates us into the kingdom (Zion) of His Son where this law is in effect. When we live from there we overcome the law of sin and death IN TRUTH. We really walk in the light and the love of God. The spiritual dimension is the 4th dimension in HIS love. We cannot sin as long as we abide in Christ. Can a man fall from the sky if he is seated in a heavenly place in an Boing 747? Wouldn't he have to jump out of the plane to be affected by gravity? So in the same way as long as we remain seated in Christ...we are not affected by the reality that affects men who walk in themselves.

It is like this. Men cannot fly! This is a reality that humans are subject to. So how would explain that people fly everyday all over the world???? Try explaining to someone who has never seen a plane (or been in one) that men can overcome the reality of non-flight through another law...aero-dynamics. :)

So here is another reality..."all men fall short of a full obedience and sin" . So how do you explain grace to someone who thinks that it is powerless to overcome the basic laws of sin and death? Grace is the access to a means of overcoming the laws of this world. Grace enables us to sit in Christ who knows no sin. With God ALL things are possible. In Christ ALL are holy.

Exactly!

 

[haz]

Hi haz,

Your reply is much appreciated by me.

Great question. Do you mean, is it always sin if we walk in the flesh? (I'm wondering what you mean by 'flesh', now.)

Hi dragonfly,

:huh: errr.....but that was my question to you (post #15).....remember?

Oh well...I'l start then.

Yes, it is sin to walk in the flesh.
But in believing on Jesus, Christians do not walk in the flesh, Rom 8:9.

Walking in the flesh is being without Christ. We often see it described in scripture as establishing righteousness by works of the law, Gal 5.

Now, what do you see walking in the flesh as?
Does the law of sin and death (aka law of righteousness, 10 commandments) have any involvement in the walking by the Spirit for Christians according to your doctrine?

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead,




... by the law of faith, I believe. ;) Eph 1:19, 20

Yes, by the law of faith.

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Axehead