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The Lie Of Religion

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by bigape, Jun 18, 2010.

  1. bigape

    bigape New Member

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    Hello sniper762

    Nice to hear from you.

    You said........
    Not really. The Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, is not an opinion, but a fact.
    Clearly laid out in the Bible.

    A person either accepts it or rejects it.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Next you said........
    I try to always be very careful, about everything I say.
    But when it comes to the fact, that these “religions”, teach and preach a false Gospel(based upon salvation by works), this is a well established fact.

    In fact, I am doing them a great favor here, in pointing out the error of their teachings.
    (It would be cruel, to keep my mouth shut, and let them go to hell, without trying to tell them the truth.)
    --------------------------------------------------
    Finally you said..........
    Now this is a very interesting statement.
    You are saying that people who........
    “proclaim that jesus is the son of god, their personal savior and worship and reverence him in every way”

    Must be in God’s favor. Lets explore that.

    It is “somewhat true”, that these religions, “proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God”:
    (I say somewhat, because they don’t really proclaim Jesus to be who He really is.)

    These religions, lower Jesus as being just one of many gods, and this is symptomatic of their bigger problem.
    --------------------------------------------------
    I noticed something else, about the way you put this statement.......
    They.......“proclaim that jesus is the son of god”:

    But the way that I put it is.........
    They......“proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God”

    I know this may simply be a typo. on your part, but this is how they really look at "Jesus and God": (as "jesus and god":)

    Those who don’t really “get it”, and are simply religious, instead of truly born again, have a lower opinion of Jesus and God, because their religion has taught them, that they don’t “really need” them, all that much.

    Cause after all, they can already do good works on their own, and make themselves into pretty decent people.

    But those of us who are truly saved, know that we are nothing and that we can do nothing without the LORD!


    Thank you for the thought provoking conversation.

     
  2. sniper762

    sniper762 New Member

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    i am not a "trinitarian" and perceive it to be a "fundamentalist" religious view. that subject has been debated to death already, (so has the use of the capital g). believing that jesus is "the son of god" and not god himself does NOT belittle jesus nor god. some christians interpret scripture differently than others, nevertheless any more or less "christians". believe as we may, thats the diversity amoung god's children (the god given free agency).
     
  3. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    Are you still ignoring the fact that i have shown you that jw's do not teach salvation by works?

    There has been no comment on you from my earlier post and I assume its because you have no evidence to back up your false claim.

    If you had evidence, you'd be quick to post it i'm sure. I have evidence and I posted it, so if you want to keep making the same false claim you really should back it up with some facts. If you have no facts, then you should not be making any claims at all.
     
  4. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hello Pegg,

    The Scriptures I posted regarding baptism of repentence are all water baptism from St. John the Baptist. He was ordered by God to baptize using water (John 1:33). Yes you are right that Jesus did not have any sins; yet, he allowed St. John the Baptist to baptize him. Christ's baptism, however, included both water and spirit because the Spirit descended upon Him when He rose from the water. According to the Bible, Christ was baptized to fulfill all righteousness, (which means to submit to God's plan of salvation of the human race, according to the footnotes in my Bible).

    From what I understand, God sent St. John the Baptist to baptize for the forgiveness and remission of sins (John 1:33). Water was used to cleanse people of their sins as they come repenting to St. John the Baptist. As the person is immersed in the water, their sins are washed into the water. Then comes along Jesus, who has no sins. He is actually the only one who can take away the sins of the world because He is the Lamb of God. By going into the filhy water full of people's sins, Jesus takes upon Himself all those sins, and truely washes them away. That is how it is seen through our eyes. God is already showing His plan of salvation through Christ's baptism. Also, by baptizing Him, St. John the Baptist was able to know Him and identify Him to the rest of the people (John 1:33-34).

    Also from what I learned from my catechists, in Christ's baptism, there is a parallel between Israel's history and Christ's life. According to what I learned from my catechists, they outlined that plan of salvation by aligning the Old Testament with the New Testament. Below is their alignment:

    1. In the Old Testament the Israelites, who were God's chosen people, were led out of slavery from Egypt by Moses.
    In the New Testament, Jesus came out of Egypt after fleeing from Herold to fulfill the prophecy in Hosea 11:1

    2. In the Old Testament, the Israelites crossed the Red Sea. This crossing of the Red Sea was described as a baptism in 1 Corinthians 10:1-2
    In the New Testament, Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River by St. John the Baptist.

    3. In the Old Testament, the Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years and was tempted by the devil 3 times.
    In the New Testament, Jesus went to the desert for 40 days and was tempted by Satan 3 times.

    4. In the Old Testament, the Israelites received the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai.
    In the New Testament, Jesus went up a mountain and fulfilled the Ten Commandments (Matthew Ch.5).

    5. In the Old Testament, the Israelites had to conquer 7 nations to reach the promised land.
    In the New Testament, Jesus conquered the 7 sins of mankind as He got to Calvary, where He was nailed to the cross and brought redemption to mankind.

    There are things like this all over the Bible between the Old and New Testaments. And interestingly, in the Bible, Jesus did say to His Apostles that the Old Testament was about Him (Luke 24:27). I agree with you that doing God's Will is the MOST important thing. Above all, we are called to follow God's Will rather than our own will. Doing God's Will is the most important one of all. [​IMG]

    However, regarding baptism, we see it as three things: 1) an initiation into the Christian community, 2) a remission of sins and 3) a transformation in which the person is changed by the Holy Spirit. We only have one baptism that includes both water and spirit, in which all these three are already incorporated. Because Christ was baptized with both water and spirit, our baptism also includes both water and spirit. To bigape, however, he only saw the water baptism, but he couldn't see the spirit descending. [​IMG]

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  5. sniper762

    sniper762 New Member

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    as i said; though i concider you and i both christians, i may not interpret scriptures the same as you. you may think that you dont need works where i may. that doesnt give you nor i, the authority to judge which of us is right. i have commented, but all those that have ears do not necessarily hear.
     
  6. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    Hi again,

    i agree with you that jesus baptism is performed also in the name of holy spirit and therefore it signifies that the person will be living according to that spirit.

    but it still is different to Johns baptism which is the only point I was trying to make. We are not baptised in Johns baptism today (or at least we shouldnt be)

    we only need Jesus baptism which is a baptism in the name of the 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' I guess what it signifies from my understanding is that
    1. Father - we make a dedication to do Gods will
    2. Son - we agree to walk in his shoes and imitate his life course
    3. Holy Spirit - we live according to its leadings and direction

    the remission of sins must come prior to baptism though for the reason that when we come to a knowlege of Gods requirements, we must repent to have our sins blotted out and then get baptized in symbol of that repentence.

    There is the biblical example of how repentence preceeds baptism and baptism preceeds reciving holy spirit in Acts 2:37-38 when the jews and proselytes were preached to at Pentecost by Peter. After Peter had revealed to them that Christ was in fact the Messiah, they asked what they must do and Peter said they must first repent, then be baptized, then recieve holy spirit.

    Now when they heard this they were stabbed to the heart, and they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles: “Men, brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter [said] to them: “Repent, and let each one of YOU be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of YOUR sins, and YOU will receive the free gift of the holy spirit.


    :)
     
  7. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hi Pegg,

    We are in agreement here. At a certain age, when children are aware of sins and commit sins, they confess their sins and then receive Confirmation (which is part of baptism). Confirmation is a deeping of the baptismal gifts, which we received from the Holy Spirit. It is where the Holy Spirit transforms us so that we become reborn. It is here that a new identity is given to us because the Holy Spirit transforms us into a new being. In the Bible, people are given new names, such as Simon into Peter, Saul into Paul, Abram into Abraham, Jacob into Israel, etc. God gives new names for a reason. It is the same with us. My confirmation name is also not the same as my birth name. People who are non-Catholics often think that Catholic Baptism and Confirmation are two different things, but it's not.

    When Jesus said that we must be born of water and spirit (John 3:5), our Church interprets this scripture to mean "baptism"....a baptism that includes John's baptism of water and Jesus' baptism of Spirit. Jesus allowed His Apostles to baptize with water (John 4:1-2) and even after He rose from the dead, the Apostles continued to baptize with water (Acts 8:38 and 1 Peter 3:21). In these Scriptures, St. Philip baptized the enuch with water and the Apostle Peter also baptized using water (which was John's baptism commanded by God), but the difference with these baptisms is that the Holy Spirit was present with the water. Because the Apostles continued to baptize with both water and spirit even after Christ's resurrection, we continued this example to the present day.

    Acts 8:38 Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the enuch both went down into the water, and he baptized him.

    1 Peter 3:20-21 ......in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus.

    According to the footnotes in my Bible, regarding Acts 19:1-6 in which St. Paul encounters men who received John's baptism it says:

    Acts 19:1-6 Upon arrival in Ehesus, Paul discovers other people at the same religious stage as Apollos, though they seem to have considered themselves follwers of Christ,not of the Baptist. They were unaware that the messianic promises had been fulfilled and the Spirit given in abudnance, cf. 2:17-18, 33. On the relation between baptism and the reception of the Spirit, see the footnotes on Acts 8:16

    Acts 8:16 Here and in Acts 10:44-48 and Acts 19:1-6, Luke distinguishes between baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus and the reception of the Spirit. In each case, the Spirit is conferred through members of the Twelve (Peter and John) or their represtentative (Paul). This may be Luke's way of describing the role of the Church in the bestowal of the Spirit. Elsewhere in Acts, baptism and the Spirit are more closely related (Acts 1, 5; 11, 16).

    With some Christians, baptism of the Holy Spirit is sufficient, and we recognize this baptism as well. In our baptism, we also use the words "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." [​IMG] You are also baptized with Christ and the Spirit, my sister. Peace be with you.

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  8. ahigherway

    ahigherway New Member

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    Hello all,

    If anyone can hear it:
    Paul said that he was not called to baptize, but to preach the gospel. Water baptism has been replaced with spiritual baptism in the Holy Ghost, which is the only thing that will break the yoke of the old man.

    Paul also never mentioned the word "hell," nor did anyone in the book of Acts, except in citing the Psalms and David not being "left there."

    Perhaps our primary doctrine should be Love. Jesus said "condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged."
    "All judgment has been given to the Son." The Son: "I judge no man."

    Love is more important that faith. 1 Cor. 13.

    Blessings to all,
    brian
     
  9. bigape

    bigape New Member

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    "You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth-But How?"
    Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1983, page 12-13

    Four Requirements for Salvation in the Watchtower Organization

    "Many have found the second requirement more difficult. It is to obey God's laws, yes, to conform one's life to the moral requirements set out in the Bible. This includes refraining from a debauched, immoral way of life."
     
  10. sniper762

    sniper762 New Member

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    chill out. I AM IN NO WAY AFFILIATED WITH THE JW'S, NOR DO I AGREE WITH MUCH OF WHAT THEY BELIEVE.
     
  11. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    So are you saying that christians have no requirement to obey Gods laws?

    If you are then i am quite surprised. We are to become imitators of Christ 1 Corinthians 11:1 are we not? Christ was obedient to God Phillipians 2:8 was he not?

    Jesus told us to obey Gods commands did he not? John 15:10

    Im not sure what gospel you are preaching, but its certainly not in harmony with Gods word.
     
  12. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hello ahigerway,

    St. Paul never replaced water baptism. You need to look at the entire context of why he said that statement.

    1 Corinthians 1:11-13 For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe's people that there are rivalries among you. I mean that each of you is saying, "I belong to Paul", or "I belong to Apollos" or "I belong to Kepha"s or "I belong to Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

    As you can see what was going on among the brothers. They were confused and divided over himself and the other Apostles. St. Paul was angry at them for equating him and the other Apostles as Christ, which was why he stated, "Was Paul crucified for you?" Then St. Paul goes on and says this:

    1 Corinthians 1:14-17 I give thanks to God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one can say you were baptized in my name. I baptized the household of Stephanas also, beyond that I do not know whether I baptized anyone else. For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence....

    In here, St. Paul admitted that he baptized some people, but he gives thanks for not baptizing those who were confused as to who Christ was because St. Paul did not want anyone to say that they were baptized in Paul's name. He is not saying that baptism should be done away with. He is telling the Corinthians that they should not be saying that they were baptized in the name of an apostle or under his name. They should be saying that they were baptize in the name of Christ Jesus. So, despite that St. Paul said that he did not come to baptize, this in no way means that baptism should be done away with. Why? Because in his letter to the Ephesians, St. Paul called people to be baptize.

    Ephesians 4:4-5 One body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call: one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

    In here, St. Paul was telling the Ephesians that we are called to be united into one body, one spirit, one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. The Greek word for baptism used in this verse is "baptisma," which means to be immersed in water. Therefore, St. Paul never got rid of water baptism. St. Paul and all the Apostles continued to baptize with BOTH water and spirit, and we continue to do the same to this present day.

    I agree that it is best not to judge others or put other people down because we are all sinners. To love God and our neighbor is commanded by God. [​IMG]

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  13. WhiteKnuckle

    WhiteKnuckle New Member

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    Chiming in late,,, as usual...


    Personally I wouldn't condemn these people. What you must first do is put off all judgement of them. "Who are you to judge anothers servant?"

    Secondly, It might be nice to have a little simpler conversation with them. Nothing real deep, and no heated debates.

    There's a chance that you are misunderstanding what they're believing, or maybe they're misunderstanding what they're being taught.

    Most certainly, if you are judging by what they believe, you will be judged also,,,,,, Is your faith itself perfect? Are you yourself without misunderstandings? Have you ever been misguided? Could there possibly be anything you might be misunderstanding about the Bible at this point?

    Most certainly so.
     
  14. bigape

    bigape New Member

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    Hi Pegg

    You asked.........
    Of course not:
    But the Bible clearly teaches, that the unsaved have no requirement to obey Gods laws, to get saved.

    Obeying God’s laws, are good works and the unsaved can not save themselves, by good works.
     
  15. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    can you show me the scriptures which say that the 'unsaved have no requirement to be saved' and they can live a debauched life and still be saved?
     
  16. bigape

    bigape New Member

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    The answer, is in your question.

    If people are unsaved, they are expected to live like they are unsaved.
    But once a person gets saved(BY GRACE), then following God’s instructions, is important.
     
  17. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    ok so what was wrong with that WT quote you gave...they said the same thing, that we have to be obedient


    And can you still provide a scirpture stating that the 'unsaved do not need to be obedient for salvation'
     
  18. bigape

    bigape New Member

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    Admit the truth, Pegg

    You said......
    No they didn’t:
    The Quote gave......“Four Requirements for Salvation

    And good works, are not a Requirement for Salvation!!!
     
  19. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    Ummmmmm....no.



    32. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33. and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35. for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36. I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37. Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38. And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39. And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40. And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41. Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42. for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43. I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44. Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45. Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46. And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Revised Standard Version) -- Matt: 25:32-46



    -- One version I read said, "Depart from me, you cursed ones." They are being sent away "into eternal punishment" because of what they didn't DO.

    Jesus does, among other things, expect us to DO good works.
    Feed the hungry...
    Clothe the naked...
    Welcome the stranger...
    Visit the imprisoned and the sick...

    He gave a clear directive to DO these things, and the above-listed scripture shows the punishment for those who don't.
     
  20. bigape

    bigape New Member

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    Hi Foreigner

    Nice to hear from you.

    I am very familiar with this passage and for sure it’s a division between the saved and the unsaved, but it does not teach “salvation by good works”.
    (It teaches the change that salvation, brings to a person.)

    God’s message throughout the entire Bible is consistent.
    People are saved(and have always been saved), by God’s Grace, not by their own works.

    To reject that, is to reject the Gospel itself............
    Galatians 1:8-9
    V.8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    V.9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
     
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