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The LORD/Lord appears as 3 and speaks as 1 to Abraham

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by afaithfulone4u, Mar 30, 2013.

  1. afaithfulone4u

    afaithfulone4u New Member

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    Gen 18:1-3
    18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
    2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
    3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
    KJV
    Did you notice that even though it says the FATHER/LORD appeared to Abraham, Abraham called him whom he spoke to "Lord" as in Jesus who is the Word of God who came to men. Also notice that he never says which of them are the Lord, in fact the scriptures lead you to the fact that all three are considered the Lord.
    If only one were the Lord, wouldn't it be out of place for them all to speak to Abraham as the Lord, and at the same time? Then why does it say" HE SAID I WILL RETURN" again as if all three are one?

    Gen 18:9-10
    9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
    10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
    KJV

    Why do they all rise up at the same time? Why does it say that Abraham went with THEM and again it calls THEM, LORD?

    Gen 18:16-17
    16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
    17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
    KJV

    Why does is show them turning their faces at the same time and then again speaking of them all 3 as LORD which he stood before?

    Gen 18:20-22
    20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
    21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
    22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
    KJV

    The ark of the covenant, whom Jesus is, had the mercy seat in the center and the two cherubim's one at each end. Now take a look at what Mary seen at Jesus' resurrection:

    John 20:11-12
    11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
    12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
    KJV

    Now compare the fact that they stood together, spoke together as 1, with Eze when the Lord appeared to him:

    Ezek 1:19-22
    19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.
    20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.
    21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.
    22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.
    KJV
     
  2. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    No way. Just because Abraham bowed at his tent door does not mean that was intended to all three, but only The One Who was The Lord.

    Gen 18:22-23
    22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
    23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt Thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
    (KJV)

    TWO of the three went towards Sodom. Abraham "drew near" to The LORD who was still standing there next to Abraham, and asked if He would destroy everyone there.

    So no, you did not discover some hidden trinity Message within those Scriptures, but simply failed to pay attention to all the details. The two men that show up among Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah were angels, and they were the other two that appeared to Abraham with Christ at his tent door.
     
  3. afaithfulone4u

    afaithfulone4u New Member

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    It does not ever distinguish that only one of them is the LORD, but it does say they all turned but to go to Sodom but Abraham stood before the LORD, as in all 3.
    It may be easy for you to just disqualify what the scripture shows, but I see and understand completely what it is saying.
    All three were called the LORD all 3 talked, stood and turned at the same time and the two men did not go straight to Sodom, you only BELIEVE it means the two same men went.
    Gen 18:33-19:1
    33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

    Notice these who later came to Sodom and Gommorah are called angels and it does not say, And THE two men came into Sodom at even. It says THERE CAME TWO ANGELS no insinuation at all of them being the same two other men again the casual reader just assumes it means the same two men for it does not say that at all.
    Genesis 19
    19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
    KJV


    How do you try to explain this one then? Why do the all three say where is Sarah? and then it says HE SAID I WILL speaking as one?
    Gen 18:9-10
    9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
    10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
    KJV

    I would also like to ask why are they called MEN yet we see that they are recognized as the LORD/Lord
     
  4. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Well, by the time one gets to Gen.19 about the two angels appearing at Lot's, yes it does make the distinction, as also when Abraham "drew near", which is like someone walks up close to you to speak in private.

    There's that bad attitude stuff again for being proven wrong.
     
  5. afaithfulone4u

    afaithfulone4u New Member

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    I do not have a bad attitude and you have proved nothing, for God has shown me what it is saying. You can believe what you like. But my hope for you is good.

    Gen 1:26
    26 And God said, Let US make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    KJV
    1 John 5:7
    7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    KJV


    I would like to add, that when it says let US make man in our image, it is referring to God's attributes and not us as God.

    But.... I am pointing out the fact that God is saying "let US make" as if not singular but we know there is no one else who is Creator God except Father Son/Word and Holy Spirit and THEY are one in the same yet 3 at work in us.

    Why is it that we have no problem seeing the Holy Spirit as being God, but we always want to dismiss The living Word as God?
     
  6. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I've read the Abraham story numerous times, and I've never read the three as the Trinity as the context.

    You've not really presented any context clues beyond mere speculation. As the Bible is written from the perspective of honoring God, of course it will deal with God in the singular sense of being ultimately about His will. It does not mean that the two men accompanying him were Jesus and the Holy Spirit; in fact, that would be a rather interesting interpretation of the Holy Spirit.

    In regards to your comment about Abraham bowing, the Lord's glory would be what he is bowing for, which could easily be taken as the singular expression of the Lord. However, other accounts in the Bible frequently mention that the prophets felt awe at the appearance of angels, and would mistakenly worship them.

    Genesis 18:9-10 is easily explained by simple reporting. The three wondered where Sarah was (the Lord knew), and then he responded. They are, after all, angels - messengers of the Lord - acting in accordance with his will.

    No offense, but you've not demonstrated the truth of your thesis outside of claimed private interpretation.
     
  7. afaithfulone4u

    afaithfulone4u New Member

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    I think you have me confused with another on the bowing, I did not question the bowing.

    So which of the 3 MEN do you Assume to be the Lord? And if they are not all 3 considered to be the LORD/Lord then why does it not say 2 men and the LORD or two angels and the Lord?

    Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,Gen 18:3
    3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
    KJV

    This is not talking about the glory of the LORD appearing, it says the LORD appeared, yet I understand that the Father who is Spirit does not come in the fashion of a man, but the son of Man does being our Lord the Word of God who came to men in the OT.




    And why does it not say that the LORD asked the other two men "Shall I hide......." Why does it speak as if He was speaking to himself and where is their answer if he is asking the 2 other MEN?

    Gen 18:17-20
    17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
    18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
    19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
    20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
    KJV

    Why would two servants speak for the Lord at the same time were it says THEY SAID? And then answer back to Abraham AS "HE SAID" AND
    "I WILL"?
    Gen 18:9-10
    9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
    10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
    KJV


    Jesus is the ark of our covenant and that is why there were two angels standing one at the head and one at the feet of where the body of Jesus had laid, just as these 3 men were called the Lord. They spoke, stood, turned at the same time and at no time mentioned as separate from the LORD but as one.
    John 20:12
    12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
    KJV
     
  8. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    You're talking a quantitative statement (there were three men in total) and reading into it a qualitative conclusion (that the three men were all God). There is nothing in the text to question the probability of them being angels. If you look at the pattern of the Ark of the Covenant, it was obviously common for some form of heavenly honor guard to be present.

    I'm thoroughly confused by your postings, but my point was that Abraham bowed for the glory of the Lord, and there is no reason to equate him bowing with all three men being God. (Which was what your posting lead one to believe whether or not it was intentioned.)

    Because his question was to Abraham directly and us indirectly through when this statement was written in the Bible. If you have an honor guard, generally the honor guard would be privy to the movements of the subject prior to them being made. It almost seems like this statement examines things in a vacuum where the angels are either incredibly vacuous or completely unaware of God's plans even though they attend directly to him.

    Easy answer. The Holy Spirit speaks God's will through our hearts, surely the same can be said for his angels. Further research into the doctrine of Union with Christ would go further on this topic, I think.

    Otherwise, I think there may be some pronoun confusion here based on the version that you're using.

    Genesis 18:9-10
    "Where is your wife Sarah?" they asked him. "There, in the tent," he said.

    Then one of them said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son." Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.
     
  9. afaithfulone4u

    afaithfulone4u New Member

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    No, now you are just assuming that only one said.... it does not say that only one responded and why would a servant such as you are implying two of them are, would have the gull to speak for the Lord or at the same time? It is clearly showing that all 3 were considered the Lord. Please understand that those who are being made into the image of Christ will be exactly as one looking in a mirror as he is, as his holy body and that all 144,000 will be the temple of God and who is the temple of God? Christ is the temple, whom his body as the living stones being built are~

    Rev 19:11-15
    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns{144,000 HIS HOLY BODY}; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    KJV
    Rev 19:6
    6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
    KJV


    Phil 2:5-11
    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    KJV
     
  10. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    We'll have to agree to disagree, you're making a huge assumption based on a single ambivalent passage because of the particular translation you're employing.
     
  11. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    Christ is not the Temple - he resides in a temple but is not the temple itself. Please read your bible sister. We can be considered a temple, Jesus after he ascended, entered the heavenly temple as the High Priest forever and intercedes on our behalf...but he is not the temple. A temple is something that he dwells in not himself... :huh:

    I also think that you are making more out of the word then what actually exists there. It is more likely to be the Lord, Michael [the angelic being assigned over Israel] and Gabriel or possibly a destroying angel like the one sent when David disobeyed God and most of Israel was destroyed.

    Bless ya!

    Shalom!
     
  12. afaithfulone4u

    afaithfulone4u New Member

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    Excuse me, who needs to read their Bible?
    Rev 21:22
    22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
    KJV
    The body of Christ who is 144,000 are the living holy stones and the Lamb is the temple.

    And now who is reading more into it??

    That is fine HammerStone, for it is not a matter of what I say or you say that matters, only what the Word says. Just always to be sure to divide the Word rightly and ask God to reveal His Word to you.
     
  13. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    You are talking about the new heaven and the new earth. This has not happened yet sweetie, but it will be the end result. That is where he is heading but is not where we are now. We are temples of the living God which is only temporary but God does not dwell in temples made with hands.

    We are also not the 144,000 of Israel but rather the redeemed from all nations and tribes and tongues that stand before the throne of God in robes washed white with the blood of the lamb Revelation 7:9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17

    BB
     
  14. afaithfulone4u

    afaithfulone4u New Member

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    Jesus is the Capstone and the Cornerstone of the temple he is the foundation of the temple for the Word he is the what the temple must be built upon. Yes there are 144,000 living stones who will be in the image of Christ who are alive to this day and will be caught up to God's throne they are the ONLY ones who follow the Lamb and the only ones to learn the song for they will be exactly as their head.
    And in case you haven't noticed. The only men from earth seen in heaven are the martyr's who are SLEEPING under the altar and will arise and come with Christ just as soon as time is up .. They are the only ones redeemed from the earth and given the white robes you will notice. And here are the rest of them as they come in AFTER they have been martyred and come out of the GT beginning after the sealing of the 144,000 holy ones which are the elect chosen 12 tribes the little flock.

    Luke 12:33
    32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
    KJV

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should REST yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
    KJV
    Rev 7:9
    9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    KJV
    Rev 7:13-14
    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white....IN.... the blood of the Lamb.
    KJV

    Notice it says IN THE BLOOD and not by the blood? These were not found worthy, holy and unlike the 144,000 who are found blameless VIRGINS and were sealed from the harm to come, all after that point must be martyred to be saved. Those 3 verses are the only verses that say WHITE ROBES in the whole KJV and they all apply to martyr's.

    Here is where the verse you spoke of comes from notice is say that he will be given power over the SAINTS and all that dwell upon the earth:

    Rev 13:7-10
    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
    10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
    KJV

    Rev 3:5-6
    5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
    6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
    KJV
     
  15. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    Okay...nothing you have said relates to us [Gentile believer's] being part of the 144,000. If we are part of the 144,000 called Israel, then why are we any different to "all the nations and tribes and tongues" whose robes were made white in the blood of the lamb." Why aren't they also called Israel since your line of thinking seems to negate them to nothing but the lesser of God's people who were martyred. [and please note that God is no respecter of persons] You can say that they came out of the GT being martyred but you cannot prove that they were not saints of God in the first place. The only thing you are counting on is the word "by and "in."

    Such a lot of presumption for such a small fragment of possibility.... :huh:

    Shalom!
     
  16. afaithfulone4u

    afaithfulone4u New Member

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    Absolutely God is not a respecter of persons, the kingdom of God is available to ALL and the invitation to be invited to the wedding of the Bride heavenly Jerusalem and the Lamb went out to WHO SO EVER WILL. But only those who have make the time to get dressed all in white, putting on Christ, having been washed in the water of the Word will be worthy and ready to attend!
    Do you believe that everyone who says they are a Christian is worthy of becoming a holy priest and king to rule over people? And what people will they rule over if all who are saved are kings and priests?
    The kingdom of God is now chosing the rulers the elect/chosen for the new earth that will inherit the Bride and they are made up of Jew and Gentiles who have been rebirthed and chosen, prepared as the son's of God to rule and reign with Christ with a Rod of iron. God does not marry people, it is the land and the children of the land who obey His voice that make up the family of God.
    Isa 62:4-5
    4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
    5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
    KJV
    1 Cor 9:24-27
    24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
    25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
    26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
    27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
    KJV
    You do remember those who are believers but say Lord, Lord that he never knew don't you? They are not invited to the wedding supper.
    To be righteous is not holiness and without holiness, which is a growing process, no one can see the Lord.
    Heb 12:15
    14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
    KJV
    2 Cor 7:1
    7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
    KJV
    Rev 1:5-6
    5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
    6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
    KJV
    Rev 20:3-7
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    KJV
     
  17. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    John is clearly speaking of two different sets of people in Revelation 7. The 144,000 and those whom he calls "all the nations from every tribe and tongue." This is a clear indication that they are two different groups. The time lines of these groups are indicated by the fact that they came out from or are a part of the GT. Those "nations" who have come out of the GT are obviously sealed because you cannot enter the Kingdom without the seal of God. [Ephesians 4:30]

    Note: Revelation 7:3-4, 5-8. Revelation 9:4. Israel was still on earth when they were sealed so their veil had obviously been removed at this point and those who came out of the GT from all nations are in heaven. This indicates to me that Israel that is spoken of here is the nation Israel and not a mixture of Gentiles and Jews because the Holy Spirit dwells in born-again gentile believers at or after salvation.

    Those under the throne [who are not asleep but cry out to God] are those who have also been martyred from another time line.

    My point is...whether we come out of the GT or are martyred before than, we are still part of "all the nations from every tribe and tongue" because we are are gentile believer's based on Johns revelation. :huh: This is the promise given to Abraham in the beginning re: the gentiles.

    Galatians 3:8
    And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”

    Galatians 3:14
    that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    PS: The seal that John speaks of here [Revelation 7] is the Holy Spirit. You cannot enter the Kingdom without it.

    Ephesians 4:30
    And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

    Shalom!
     
  18. UppsalaDragby

    UppsalaDragby New Member

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    I would like to believe that the three men in Genesis was solid evidence of the Trinity, but if that was so it would mean that even the God the father appeared to Abraham. That would mean that the following explanation for the "no one has seen God" contradiction falls apart:


    "If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God Almighty, but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I suggest that they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate. In other words, they were seeing Jesus."

    So either the three men are not the Trinity, or the explanation the CARM gives is wrong, in which case another explanation would need to be given.
     
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