The Maker Of All Made Sin For Us

[FaithWillDo]

Exactly. Some translators added this word. It's not there in the Greek. Nor is it included in the meaning of hamartia.

Maybe relook at the interlinear, that may help show the construction.

Much love!

Dear Marks,
And just as the translators added "offering/sacrifices" in Heb 10:6 & 8, they should have added it to 2Cor 5:21 (just as the NLT and CNT do).

Also, there is no second witness for Christ being made sin. Plus, being made sin is not even possible since sin is defined as "missing the mark". Christ did not miss the mark.

I have had some people tell me that being made sin is referring to being in a physical body. However, that makes no sense either because Christ was in a physical body and He never sinned.

Mankind's sin problem comes from being created spiritually "marred" (Jer 18:4) - it does not come from being in a physical body. The flaw in mankind's spirit is that it is weak, and because it is, it has little ability to resist the temptations of the flesh. If the physical body was the flaw, then Christ would have sinned just as mankind does.

I'm out of time for today. I'll be back on the forum tomorrow (as the Lord wills) and will respond then if needed.

Joe

 

[marks]

(just as the NLT and CNT do).

These are interpretive translations, which means they more reflect the doctrines of the translators, rather than a simple translation, that more just sticks to the words used.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Mankind's sin problem comes from being created spiritually "marred" (Jer 18:4) - it does not come from being in a physical body. The flaw in mankind's spirit is that it is weak, and because it is, it has little ability to resist the temptations of the flesh. If the physical body was the flaw, then Christ would have sinned just as mankind does.

Corruption of sin is in the flesh, this is plainly stated Scripture. Jesus was the Last Adam, signifying a new creation of Man.

Much love!

 

[FaithWillDo]

Corruption of sin is in the flesh, this is plainly stated Scripture. Jesus was the Last Adam, signifying a new creation of Man.

Much love!

Dear Marks,

You should consider these verses that teach about corruption:

Christ saw no corruption:

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 13:3 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

But mankind does:

Acts 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

2Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Christ's words are "spirit" (John 6:63) and they carry meanings that are different from what man's wisdom teaches (1Cor 2:13). To learn the true meanings of Christ's spirit words, Paul says to compare spiritual things (spirit words) with spiritual. In other words, Paul tells us to look at how each spirit word is used in other portions of scripture and then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the word's true meaning can be discerned.

When we do this process with the word "corruption", I see that its true meaning is: the consequence of sin.

Back to my point of why mankind sins. It is not because we have a physical body. If that were the cause, Christ would have sinned because He came in the same flesh that mankind was given. However, Christ was spiritually different. He came into the world with the full measure of God's Spirit. This Spirit is powerful and because of such, Christ only did the "will" of His Father and never gave into the lust and desires of His own flesh. Because of the power of the Holy Spirit, Christ remained sinless.

Mankind, however, was created spiritually "marred" (Jer 18:4) and "subject to vanity" (Rom 8:20)). The flaw in mankind spiritual makeup is that we are spiritually weak:

Psa 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed.

Eze 16:30 How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;

Joel 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

This spiritual weakness allows our flesh to govern us. In other words, our spiritual nature and mind quickly become carnal after birth.

Eve showed that she was carnal PRIOR to her sinning:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

It was because of Eve's carnality that she sinned. Adam sinned after Eve presented the forbidden fruit to him which showed that he, too, was carnal.

Here are some additional teachings on Adam and Eve: Adam (the man) represents the mind (the head). Eve (the woman) represents the spiritual nature (the body). Together, they are "one flesh".

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

1Cor 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

Because this is mankind's spiritual makeup (mind & spiritual nature), Satan tempted Eve instead of Adam because sin originates from our weak & carnal spiritual nature. Then Eve (the carnal nature) tempted Adam (the carnal mind) and caused him to sin. It is through mankind's carnal nature (the woman) that Satan tempts and deceives us. For this reason, Paul said this:

1Tim 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Paul says that the woman is guilty of the transgression and not Adam. Paul is saying that it is mankind's carnal spiritual nature (our weak spirit) that is guilty of the transgression. Because the woman is guilty, she will bear the penalty of sin (death).

Paul then says that the woman will be saved in childbearing. This truth comes from the birthing analogy used in scripture. It teaches that our carnal spiritual nature will be destroyed and replaced with the spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit. This conversion process births the new child of God. In this way, mankind becomes like Christ. Even though we may still possess a physical body, our spiritual makeup is changed to be powerful (Holy Spirit) and will not let our body of flesh govern it.

Because the woman is guilty of the transgression, she is frequently called a "harlot/Great Harlot" because she is the one who commits fornication/adultery with Satan. This is spiritual fornication and means to follow and believe Satan over Christ.

In Revelation chapter 18, the destruction of the Great Harlot is shown. This is describing what happens to her during the conversion process. Also, the Great Harlot is said to have become the habitation of devils. This is teaching that the spirit of anti-Christ has indwelt her and made the person "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). The believer who has this worsened spiritual nature is called a man of sin. In chapter 13 of Revelation, the man of sin is symbolized by the Seven Headed Beast who is controlled by the second beast (a symbol for the spirit of anti-Christ).

The subject I have been teaching above is taught in many areas of scripture and is key to what happens to a believer at their moment of conversion.

Joe

 

[marks]

You should consider these verses that teach about corruption:

What I'm referring to, you can find by looking at all the passages in the NT that use "flesh" (sarx) or "body" (soma). Look at every place they are used, in what context.

Much love!

 

[Logikos]

Dear Logikas,
You said:
There is no need for any second "scriptural witness". The text of GOD'S word is clear as it can be!

God's Word is written so that only those who have been given "eyes that can see" will understand it.

Paul says that he teaches in a "mystery" (1Cor 2:7) and that he uses the same "spirit" words that Christ uses (John 6:63). He then says that those words carry meanings that are different from what man's wisdom teaches (2Cor 2:13). Paul then says that to understand the meanings of Christ's spirit words, we are to compare spiritual words with how those same spiritual words are used elsewhere in scripture. Then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the meanings of spirit words can be discerned.

This scripture also applies:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Only believers who have been weaned from milk (those who are converted) will be able to understand God's Word. Even with eyes that can see, it is a difficult process because God's Word is taught in "another language" (Christ's spiritual language). In that language, Christ teaches using parables, types and analogy. He also teaches us "here a little, and there a little". This requires for truth to be assembled. Christ teaches in this manner so that only the converted Elect will understand the truth of God. For believers who are not converted, they will not be able to understand the truth of God. As a result, they fall backward (same as fallen away), and be broken (lose their salvation) and snared and taken by Satan.

Even after an Elect believer is converted, finding and understanding the truth is a challenge:

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

I didn't even mention the difficulty of overcoming the bad translations of scripture as we are dealing with in this thread.

In light of the scriptures I quoted above, God's word is not "as clear as it can be".

You asked:
Further, where is your second and third "scriptural witness" that says there has to be three "scriptural witnesses" to establish a doctrine?

Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2Cor 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Luke 22:38 is another witness but you are having difficulty understanding it because you do not understand the spiritual language of Christ.

You said:
You're lying. It is NEVER translated that way without the word for "sacrifice" being present.

The words "sin" and "offering" appear together exactly twice in the King James bible. They are both in Hebrews chapter 10

Hebrew 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

I am referring to Heb 10 verses 6 and 8 (not verse 18). In Heb 10:6, in the phrase "sacrifices for sin", the word "sacrifices" is NOT in the Greek text. And likewise, in Heb 10:8, in the phrase "offering for sin", the word "offering" in NOT in the Greek text. You need to double check the Greek text on these two verses.

You said:
Irrelevant.

II Corinthians was not written in Hebrew. It was written is Greek!

It would be irrelevant if two different authors were involved in writing scripture but there are not. Christ is the Word of God and all scripture comes from Him.

You said:
This is a simple blatant lie! What are you doing?

Prophora is not translated as sin offering! Not even once! Not ever!

You are mistaken. The Greek word "prophora" is NOT the Greek word in question. And as you said, it should be translated only as "offering".

Here is the verse again:

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering (prophora) and burnt offerings and offering (not in the text) for sin (hamartia) thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

You said in answer to my question: Since you contend that Christ was actually "made sin", what do you believe it means?

This nonsense would only hold water for those who are trying not to understand. It means precisely what it says. Go find a third grade child, any third grade child, read the verse to him and ask him what it means. He'll get it right. He'll have a hard time putting into words but he'll get the gist of it correct because it isn't hard.

It is a figure of speech. The passage doesn't mean that Jesus turned into some evil substance of some sort. It simply means that, although He remained holy, He was regarded as guilty of all the sin in the world. Through the imputation of our sin to Him, He became the recipient of God’s judgment against sin and thus righteousness can be imputed to us. It wasn't because of righteousness that Jesus died, it was because of sin! It was precisely sin that was being dealt with on the cross. Death is the result of SIN! Christ became our sin so that we can become His righteousness. He died our death so that we can live His life!

No third grade child can understand the truth of scripture as I explained earlier in this post.

Your answer has no scriptural support. None. Zero. What double witness of scripture are you referencing that says that Christ was guilty of all the sin in the world???

God's Word never says that Christ was guilty of the sins of the world. In fact, God's Word says that because Christ was not guilty of sin (ours or His own), He was able to become the propitiation of the sins of the whole world (1John 2:2).

Scripture does say that Christ "bore our sins" but that only means that He died for our sins. It does not mean that Christ was guilty of our sins - nor was He "made sin". Scripture only teaches that Christ was an "offering for sin".

Joe

Okay!

So, you are clearly not interested in having two way conversations. You want to ignore major points and whole arguments and simply repeat your doctrine as though nothing was said at all. That makes you a waste of time.

Did you think I was kidding earlier about how I would react to such behavior?

Good bye!

 

[BlessedPeace]

Precious friend, I simply believe God's Pure/Preserved Word Of Truth. I am not about to
go around Correcting Him. I will leave that to the modern textual critics (who know better
than He Does?) KJV Only?

Amen.

Pure preserved word? Without error anywhere?