The Maker Of All Made Sin For Us

[GRACE ambassador]

"It is thrilling to trace through the New Testament and find the word “made,” and to observe how
our Lord Jesus Christ, the great Creator of all, humbled Himself, died on Calvary’s cross and arose
again from the dead to save, justify and glorify sinners.

St. Paul says of Christ: “All things were created by Him and for Him” (Col. 1:16), and St. John adds by
inspiration: “All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made…
The world was made by Him” (John 1:3,10).

How wonderful it is, then, that He, the Creator of all, came to be one with us — yes, one of us!
John tells us again that the Maker of all was “made flesh” (John 1:14) and Paul declares that
“when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made
under the law…” (Gal. 4:4), that He “made Himself of no reputation …and was made in the
likeness of men” (Phil. 2:6,7).

In his letter to the Hebrews he adds that Christ was “made [for] a little [while] lower than the
angels for the suffering of death” (Heb. 2:9). More than that, he declares that our Lord was
“made a curse for us” (Gal. 3:13) to redeem us from the curse of the law, and that God
“made Him to be sin for us…” (II Cor. 5:21).

Thus in one stroke, at Calvary, our Lord, the great Creator, bore the penalty for sin that would
have sunk a world to hell, and for this “God also hath highly exalted Him” (Phil. 2:9), having
“raised Him from the dead and set Him at His Own Right Hand in the heavenly places, far
above all…” (Eph. 1:20,21). “God hath made that same Jesus… both Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:36)
so that now He has been “made higher than the heavens” (Heb. 7:26).

As a result the simplest believer in This Mighty Savior is “made… accepted in the Beloved One”
(Eph. 1:6) and “made [to] sit… in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6). He is “made the
righteousness of God in Him” (II Cor. 5:21), “that being justified by His Grace, we should be
made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Tit. 3:7)."
(CR Stam 'Two Minutes link')

Amen.

 

[Logikos]

"It is thrilling to trace through the New Testament and find the word “made,” and to observe how
our Lord Jesus Christ, the great Creator of all, humbled Himself, died on Calvary’s cross and arose
again from the dead to save, justify and glorify sinners.

St. Paul says of Christ: “All things were created by Him and for Him” (Col. 1:16), and St. John adds by
inspiration: “All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made…
The world was made by Him” (John 1:3,10).

How wonderful it is, then, that He, the Creator of all, came to be one with us — yes, one of us!
John tells us again that the Maker of all was “made flesh” (John 1:14) and Paul declares that
“when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made
under the law…” (Gal. 4:4), that He “made Himself of no reputation …and was made in the
likeness of men” (Phil. 2:6,7).

In his letter to the Hebrews he adds that Christ was “made [for] a little [while] lower than the
angels for the suffering of death” (Heb. 2:9). More than that, he declares that our Lord was
“made a curse for us” (Gal. 3:13) to redeem us from the curse of the law, and that God
“made Him to be sin for us…” (II Cor. 5:21).

Thus in one stroke, at Calvary , our Lord, the great Creator, bore the penalty for sin that would
have sunk a world to hell, and for this “God also hath highly exalted Him” (Phil. 2:9), having
“raised Him from the dead and set Him at His Own Right Hand in the heavenly places, far
above all…” (Eph. 1:20,21). “God hath made that same Jesus… both Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:36)
so that now He has been “made higher than the heavens” (Heb. 7:26).

As a result the simplest believer in this mighty Savior is “made… accepted in the Beloved One”
(Eph. 1:6) and “made [to] sit… in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6). He is “made the
righteousness of God in Him” (II Cor. 5:21), “that being justified by His Grace, we should be
made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Tit. 3:7)."
(CR Stam 'Two Minutes link')

Amen.

Stam was the man!

 

[FaithWillDo]

"It is thrilling to trace through the New Testament and find the word “made,” and to observe how
our Lord Jesus Christ, the great Creator of all, humbled Himself, died on Calvary’s cross and arose
again from the dead to save, justify and glorify sinners.

St. Paul says of Christ: “All things were created by Him and for Him” (Col. 1:16), and St. John adds by
inspiration: “All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made…
The world was made by Him” (John 1:3,10).

How wonderful it is, then, that He, the Creator of all, came to be one with us — yes, one of us!
John tells us again that the Maker of all was “made flesh” (John 1:14) and Paul declares that
“when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made
under the law…” (Gal. 4:4), that He “made Himself of no reputation …and was made in the
likeness of men” (Phil. 2:6,7).

In his letter to the Hebrews he adds that Christ was “made [for] a little [while] lower than the
angels for the suffering of death” (Heb. 2:9). More than that, he declares that our Lord was
“made a curse for us” (Gal. 3:13) to redeem us from the curse of the law, and that God
“made Him to be sin for us…” (II Cor. 5:21).

Thus in one stroke, at Calvary, our Lord, the great Creator, bore the penalty for sin that would
have sunk a world to hell, and for this “God also hath highly exalted Him” (Phil. 2:9), having
“raised Him from the dead and set Him at His Own Right Hand in the heavenly places, far
above all…” (Eph. 1:20,21). “God hath made that same Jesus… both Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:36)
so that now He has been “made higher than the heavens” (Heb. 7:26).

As a result the simplest believer in This Mighty Savior is “made… accepted in the Beloved One”
(Eph. 1:6) and “made [to] sit… in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6). He is “made the
righteousness of God in Him” (II Cor. 5:21), “that being justified by His Grace, we should be
made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Tit. 3:7)."
(CR Stam 'Two Minutes link')

Amen.

Dear Grace ambassador,
Christ was not made sin for us. 2Cor 5:21 is commonly mistranslated. It should read that Christ was made a sin offering for us:

2Cor 5:21 For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ. (NLT)

2Cor 5:21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God’s righteousness in Him. (Concordant New Testament)

Also, there are no other verses in God's Word which say that Christ was made sin. Christ says that at least a double witness of scripture is required to prove any truth (Luke 22:38).

In contrast, there are several witnesses to the truth that Christ was made a sin offering.

Joe

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Christ was not made sin for us. 2Cor 5:21 is commonly mistranslated.

Precious friend, I simply believe God's Pure/Preserved Word Of Truth. I am not about to
go around Correcting Him. I will leave that to the modern textual critics (who know better
than He Does?) KJV Only?

Amen.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Precious friend, I simply believe God's Pure/Preserved Word Of Truth. I am not about to
go around Correcting Him. I will leave that to the modern textual critics (who know better
than He Does?) KJV Only?

Amen.

Dear Grace ambassador,
The NT was written in Greek. The translations from the Greek contain errors. The KJV has had over 1,000 corrections since it was first printed. The errors are not God's Word. The KJV still contains many errors, most of which were caused by translator bias. The improper translation of the Greek words "aion" and "aionios" have proven to be the most damaging to God's truth.
Joe

 

[Logikos]

Dear Grace ambassador,
Christ was not made sin for us. 2Cor 5:21 is commonly mistranslated. It should read that Christ was made a sin offering for us:

2Cor 5:21 For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ. (NLT)

2Cor 5:21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God’s righteousness in Him. (Concordant New Testament)

False!

I don't know who told you this but it is flatly false.

τὸν γὰρ μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν

hamartia (Strong's G266): Sin

The Greek term "εἰδωλόθυτος" which translates into English as "sacrifice" (See Strong's G1494) is NOT in that text!

Also, there are no other verses in God's Word which say that Christ was made sin. Christ says that at least a double witness of scripture is required to prove any truth (Luke 22:38).

God is Three in One! Thus, all of God's testimony is automatically true by such a standard and there are whole swaths of Christian doctrine and belief that could not stand up to this nonsensical standard anyway.

More importantly, if you're going to make stuff up out of whole clothe, maybe refrain from giving a scripture referrence because someone might actually look it up to see if you're telling the truth....

Luke 22:35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”
So they said, “Nothing.”
36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be [e]accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”
38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”
And He said to them, “It is enough.”

This passage has literally nothing at all to do with what your saying here! I mean, did you just forget that the bible is the most published book in the whole history of mankind and that we're all on the internet where such things can be looked up and copy/pasted in about ten seconds?

In contrast, there are several witnesses to the truth that Christ was made a sin offering.

Joe

No one denies that Jesus was made a sin offering but that isn't what the passage in question says nor is there any way to rightly translate it in that manner.

 

[FaithWillDo]

False!

I don't know who told you this but it is flatly false.

τὸν γὰρ μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν

hamartia (Strong's G266): Sin

The Greek term "εἰδωλόθυτος" which translates into English as "sacrifice" (See Strong's G1494) is NOT in that text!

Dear Logikos:
There is no second witness to Christ being made "sin". That alone proves that Christ was not made sin, because for any truth to be proven, there must be at least "two or three witnesses" according to the Law. Christ re-enforced this requirement in Luke 22:38:

Luke 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

The spirit word "sword" means the Word of God.

Below is how 2Cor 5:21 should be translated:

2Cor 5:21 For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ. (NLT)

2Cor 5:21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God’s righteousness in Him. (Concordant New Testament)

The Greek word for “sin” in the verse is “hamartia”, Strong’s G266. When I researched that word in esword, it came up 174 times. I read those verses in the KJV and in all but two of those verses it is translated “sin”. But twice it was translated to mean a sin offering/sacrifice. However, if you look in the Old Testament at the Hebrew word for “sin”, it is frequently translated as “sin offering”, especially in Leviticus.

Below, "hamartia" is translated as meaning a "sin offering" by the KJV in these two verses:

Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin (G266) thou hast had no pleasure.

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin (G266) thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Also, when the 2Cor 5:21 verse is translated “made sin”, there are numerous contradictions with others scriptures. But when I use the translation of that verse which says that Christ was made a “sin offering”, the contradictions disappear.

Below is the “second witness” for Christ being made a sin offering:

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Finally, it makes no since for Christ or for anyone to be made "sin". Sin is "missing the mark". Christ did not miss His mark and He never sinned. However, mankind sins frequently, but scripture never says that mankind was made sin.

Since you contend that Christ was actually "made sin", what do you believe it means? Are you saying that Christ was a sinner?

Joe

 

[Logikos]

Dear Logikos:
There is no second witness to Christ being made "sin". That alone proves that Christ was not made sin, because for any truth to be proven, there must be at least "two or three witnesses" according to the Law.

Don't ignore the arguments I make like I said nothing at all. Do it again and I'll put you on ignore and ignore every single syllable you ever write from this point forward.

There is no need for any second "scriptural witness". The text of GOD'S word is clear as it can be!

Which of the Three members of the Godhead weren't involved in the inspiration of scripture?

None?

Which then of the Three members of the Trinity do you accuse of lying?


Further, where is your second and third "scriptural witness" that says there has to be three "scriptural witnesses" to establish a doctrine?

The one passage you have cited doesn't even say such a thing! Is there even one scriptural witness you can cite for this obviously self-defeating doctrine?

Christ re-enforced this requirement in Luke 22:38:

Luke 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

The spirit word "sword" means the Word of God.

Not in that context it doesn't!

Not every mention of the word "sword" is a veiled reference to scripture. Did Peter cut off the guard's ear with a copy of the Septuagint?

Below is how 2Cor 5:21 should be translated:

2Cor 5:21 For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ. (NLT)

2Cor 5:21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God’s righteousness in Him. (Concordant New Testament)

The Greek word for “sin” in the verse is “hamartia”, Strong’s G266. When I researched that word in esword, it came up 174 times. I read those verses in the KJV and in all but two of those verses it is translated “sin”. But twice it was translated to mean a sin offering/sacrifice.

You're lying. It is NEVER translated that way without the word for "sacrifice" being present.

The words "sin" and "offering" appear together exactly twice in the King James bible. They are both in Hebrews chapter 10

Hebrew 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

In both cases the Greek word for "offering" is present.

Strong's G4376

προσφορά​

prosphora - offering

1. the act of offering, a bringing to
2. that which is offered, a gift, a present. In the NT a sacrifice, whether bloody or not: offering for sin, expiatory offering

However, if you look in the Old Testament at the Hebrew word for “sin”, it is frequently translated as “sin offering”, especially in Leviticus.

Irrelevant.

II Corinthians was not written in Hebrew. It was written is Greek!

Below, "hamartia" is translated as meaning a "sin offering" by the KJV in these two verses:

Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin (G266) thou hast had no pleasure.

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin (G266) thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

This is a simple blatant lie! What are you doing?

Hamartia is not translated as sin offering! Not even once! Not ever!

The Greek word for sin is ἁμαρτία - hamartia, and it is present in both verse 8 and 10 and is the word Prophora which is the Greek word for sacrifice. There is simply no such thing as a single Greek word that can be translated as "sin offering"!

You clearly looked this up and so have to have known this! You're simply telling a lie here! Why? Where is the pay off? What substantive difference to your own doctrine would it even make to simply take II Cor. 5:21 to mean what it actually says? What is it that makes you think it was necessary to show up here in public and make statements that you have to know are false?

Also, when the 2Cor 5:21 verse is translated “made sin”, there are numerous contradictions with others scriptures. But when I use the translation of that verse which says that Christ was made a “sin offering”, the contradictions disappear.

So we're just supposed to ignore that your translation contradicts the original text?

The word "offering" IS NOT PRESENT IN II COR. 5:21!!!!!

Below is the “second witness” for Christ being made a sin offering:

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

The fact that Jesus was a sin offering is not in dispute and would be true whether the bible said it once or ten thousand times.

Finally, it makes no sense for Christ or for anyone to be made "sin". Sin is "missing the mark". Christ did not miss His mark and He never sinned. However, mankind sins frequently, but scripture never says that mankind was made sin.

Since you contend that Christ was actually "made sin", what do you believe it means? Are you saying that Christ was a sinner?

Joe

This nonsense would only hold water for those who are trying not to understand. It means what it says! Go find a third grade child, any third grade child, read the verse to him and ask him what it means. He'll get it right. He'll have a hard time putting into words but he'll get the gist of it correct because it isn't hard.

It is a figure of speech. The passage doesn't mean that Jesus turned into some evil substance of some sort. It simply means that, although He remained holy, He was regarded as guilty of all the sin in the world. Through the imputation of our sin to Him, He became the recipient of God’s judgment against sin and thus righteousness can be imputed to us. It wasn't because of righteousness that Jesus had to die, it was because of sin! It was precisely sin that was being dealt with on the cross. Death is the result of SIN! Christ became our sin so that we can become His righteousness. He died our death so that we can live His life! See how easily that fits with the whole of the New Testament and everything practically everyone knows about the gospel?

 

[marks]

Dear Grace ambassador,
Christ was not made sin for us. 2Cor 5:21 is commonly mistranslated. It should read that Christ was made a sin offering for us:

2Cor 5:21 For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ. (NLT)

That's not a straight translation, the NLT is being interpretive on this point. The word itself is sin, and if you were to translate this as "sin offerning", then while it may fit your viewpoint in this verse, but it's going to make a hash out of a great many other verses.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Dear Logikos:
There is no second witness to Christ being made "sin". That alone proves that Christ was not made sin, because for any truth to be proven, there must be at least "two or three witnesses" according to the Law. Christ re-enforced this requirement in Luke 22:38:

That's by humans. Even if God says something only once yet it remains true.

This is also something said only once, do you likewise refute this also?

Colossians 2:12-15 KJV
12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

What was nailed to the cross?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Below, "hamartia" is translated as meaning a "sin offering" by the KJV in these two verses:

Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin (G266) thou hast had no pleasure.

This is not correct.

Hamartia was NOT translated so.




"kai peri hamartias" "And concerning sin"

And the translators supply "offering" to address "what concerning sin?" But "offering" is in no wise a translation of hamartia.

This is not a valid argument.

Much love!

 

[FaithWillDo]

Christ became our sin so that we can become His righteousness. He died our death so that we can live His life!

Dear Logikas,
You said:
There is no need for any second "scriptural witness". The text of GOD'S word is clear as it can be!

God's Word is written so that only those who have been given "eyes that can see" will understand it.

Paul says that he teaches in a "mystery" (1Cor 2:7) and that he uses the same "spirit" words that Christ uses (John 6:63). He then says that those words carry meanings that are different from what man's wisdom teaches (2Cor 2:13). Paul then says that to understand the meanings of Christ's spirit words, we are to compare spiritual words with how those same spiritual words are used elsewhere in scripture. Then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the meanings of spirit words can be discerned.

This scripture also applies:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Only believers who have been weaned from milk (those who are converted) will be able to understand God's Word. Even with eyes that can see, it is a difficult process because God's Word is taught in "another language" (Christ's spiritual language). In that language, Christ teaches using parables, types and analogy. He also teaches us "here a little, and there a little". This requires for truth to be assembled. Christ teaches in this manner so that only the converted Elect will understand the truth of God. For believers who are not converted, they will not be able to understand the truth of God. As a result, they fall backward (same as fallen away), and be broken (lose their salvation) and snared and taken by Satan.

Even after an Elect believer is converted, finding and understanding the truth is a challenge:

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

I didn't even mention the difficulty of overcoming the bad translations of scripture as we are dealing with in this thread.

In light of the scriptures I quoted above, God's word is not "as clear as it can be".

You asked:
Further, where is your second and third "scriptural witness" that says there has to be three "scriptural witnesses" to establish a doctrine?

Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2Cor 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Luke 22:38 is another witness but you are having difficulty understanding it because you do not understand the spiritual language of Christ.

You said:
You're lying. It is NEVER translated that way without the word for "sacrifice" being present.

The words "sin" and "offering" appear together exactly twice in the King James bible. They are both in Hebrews chapter 10

Hebrew 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

I am referring to Heb 10 verses 6 and 8 (not verse 18). In Heb 10:6, in the phrase "sacrifices for sin", the word "sacrifices" is NOT in the Greek text. And likewise, in Heb 10:8, in the phrase "offering for sin", the word "offering" in NOT in the Greek text. You need to double check the Greek text on these two verses.

You said:
Irrelevant.

II Corinthians was not written in Hebrew. It was written is Greek!

It would be irrelevant if two different authors were involved in writing scripture but there are not. Christ is the Word of God and all scripture comes from Him.

You said:
This is a simple blatant lie! What are you doing?

Prophora is not translated as sin offering! Not even once! Not ever!

You are mistaken. The Greek word "prophora" is NOT the Greek word in question. And as you said, it should be translated only as "offering".

Here is the verse again:

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering (prophora) and burnt offerings and offering (not in the text) for sin (hamartia) thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

You said in answer to my question: Since you contend that Christ was actually "made sin", what do you believe it means?

This nonsense would only hold water for those who are trying not to understand. It means precisely what it says. Go find a third grade child, any third grade child, read the verse to him and ask him what it means. He'll get it right. He'll have a hard time putting into words but he'll get the gist of it correct because it isn't hard.

It is a figure of speech. The passage doesn't mean that Jesus turned into some evil substance of some sort. It simply means that, although He remained holy, He was regarded as guilty of all the sin in the world. Through the imputation of our sin to Him, He became the recipient of God’s judgment against sin and thus righteousness can be imputed to us. It wasn't because of righteousness that Jesus died, it was because of sin! It was precisely sin that was being dealt with on the cross. Death is the result of SIN! Christ became our sin so that we can become His righteousness. He died our death so that we can live His life!

No third grade child can understand the truth of scripture as I explained earlier in this post.

Your answer has no scriptural support. None. Zero. What double witness of scripture are you referencing that says that Christ was guilty of all the sin in the world???

God's Word never says that Christ was guilty of the sins of the world. In fact, God's Word says that because Christ was not guilty of sin (ours or His own), He was able to become the propitiation of the sins of the whole world (1John 2:2).

Scripture does say that Christ "bore our sins" but that only means that He died for our sins. It does not mean that Christ was guilty of our sins - nor was He "made sin". Scripture only teaches that Christ was an "offering for sin".

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

That's by humans. Even if God says something only once yet it remains true.

This is also something said only once, do you likewise refute this also?

Colossians 2:12-15 KJV
12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

What was nailed to the cross?

Much love!

Dear Marks,
The sacrificial ordinances were blotted out because Christ become the final sacrifice. The remainder of the Law is written in our hearts and is fulfilled by loving God and our neighbor. Under that law, two or three witnesses are required. Paul re-enforced this requirement in the verse below:

1Cor 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

God's Word was recorded by the Prophets. To prove anything true in God's Word, it requires the testimony from two or three prophets.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

In the verse above, Christ says that the scriptures testify of Him. For that testimony of the scriptures to be proven true, it requires requires two or three witnesses (the prophets).

For that sane reason, Christ made this statement to the Apostles when He sent them out to spread the Gospel:

Luke 22:35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?” So they said, “Nothing.” 36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.” 38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”

A "sword" represents God's Word:

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Scripture (as recorded by the Prophets) is the written record of God's Word (Christ). When Christ tells the Apostles to take a sword with them, He was not referring to a physical sword. He was referring to God's Word. When Christ said that two swords are enough, He was saying that a double witness of scripture is enough to prove what scripture teaches is true.

Joe

 

[marks]

Scripture (as recorded by the Prophets) is the written record of God's Word (Christ). When Christ tells the Apostles to take a sword with them, He was not referring to a physical sword. He was referring to God's Word. When Christ said that two swords are enough, He was saying that a double witness of scripture is enough to prove what scripture teaches is true.

He meant the kind of swords that are like big knives. He even gave the reason, do you remember what that was?

Everything in context, or else we risk appropriating Scriptures for our own uses.

Luke 22:36-38 KJV
36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37) For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38) And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Get some swords. It was written, "he was reckoned among the transgressors". Two will be enough.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Dear Marks,
The sacrificial ordinances were blotted out because Christ become the final sacrifice. The remainder of the Law is written in our hearts and is fulfilled by loving God and our neighbor. Under that law, two or three witnesses are required. Paul re-enforced this requirement in the verse below:

1Cor 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

God's Word was recorded by the Prophets. To prove anything true in God's Word, it requires the testimony from two or three prophets.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

In the verse above, Christ says that the scriptures testify of Him. For that testimony of the scriptures to be proven true, it requires requires two or three witnesses (the prophets).

I'll still say . . . even if God says something only once, it is still true. And there are some things in the Bible that are only said once. And they, having been said once, remain true.

Two or three witnesses were required for men.

We just need to receive what God says, not to place rules on what we will and will not accept from Him.

Much love!

 

[FaithWillDo]

This is not correct.

Hamartia was NOT translated so.

View attachment 42364

View attachment 42365
"kai peri hamartias" "And concerning sin"

And the translators supply "offering" to address "what concerning sin?" But "offering" is in no wise a translation of hamartia.

This is not a valid argument.

Much love!

Dear Marks,
You need to check Heb 10:6 again. The Greek word "peri" (G4012) is a preposition meaning "for". The Greek word "thysia" (G2378) means "sacrifices" and is not in the text. The word "sacrifices" was added to the verse just as I have stated.

This is how the actual text reads:

Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

The word "sacrifices" (G2378) was added after the word "for" just as I have stated.

The same is true of Heb 10:8 except this time the translator inserted the word "offering" instead of the word "sacrifices".

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

He meant the kind of swords that are like big knives. He even gave the reason, do you remember what that was?

Everything in context, or else we risk appropriating Scriptures for our own uses.

Luke 22:36-38 KJV
36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37) For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38) And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Get some swords. It was written, "he was reckoned among the transgressors". Two will be enough.

Much love!

Dear Marks,
So you believe that the same Christ who said this:

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

is the same Christ who told the Apostles to carry a sword in case they need to use violence in self defense?

How is physically harming those who "persecute you" doing good to them?

Christ's words are "spirit" and they carry meanings which are different from what man's wisdom teaches (1Cor 2:13). When Christ uses the word "sword", His message concerns the Word of God and not a physical sword. In Luke 22:38, Christ is telling the Apostles to use two or three witnesses of God's Word when they teach the Gospel.

Also, nowhere in scripture does Christ, Paul, Peter, etc. ever endorse using violence of any kind, even in self defense.

Below is another example on how Christ uses the spirit word "sword":

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. However, if we understand this verse literally, that statement can easily be proven to be FALSE. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying.

Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who are follow Him), must perish (death of the Old Man/carnal nature) by the Sword. This death is a necessary part of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of Fire (judgment of the carnal nature):

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.

This conversion process is what the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost:

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of FIRE, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the HOLY SPIRIT, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

In the spiritual language of Christ, the Apostles took up the sword and then died by the sword.

In light of what I presented above, do you understand what this verse below is teaching?

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (Word of God) will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Like the other verses I’ve presented, this verse above is teaching about the conversion event. And like the other verses, its message is hidden in the spiritual language of Christ. The “many” who are “slain of the Lord” is referring to the people who have just been converted & saved.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

I'll still say . . . even if God says something only once, it is still true. And there are some things in the Bible that are only said once. And they, having been said once, remain true.

Two or three witnesses were required for men.

We just need to receive what God says, not to place rules on what we will and will not accept from Him.

Much love!

Dear Marks,
Of course, if Christ only says something once, it is true. But the law requires two or three witnesses to prove anything to be true. Because that is the legal requirement, Christ provides more than just one witness so that we are legally without an excuse for not believing Him.
Joe

 

[marks]

is the same Christ who told the Apostles to carry a sword in case they need to use violence in self defense?

This is what Jesus actually said:

Luke 22:35-38 KJV
35) And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37) For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38) And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Dear Marks,
You need to check Heb 10:6 again. The Greek word "peri" (G4012) is a preposition meaning "for". The Greek word "thysia" (G2378) means "sacrifices" and is not in the text. The word "sacrifices" was added to the verse just as I have stated.

This is how the actual text reads:

Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

The word "sacrifices" (G2378) was added after the word "for" just as I have stated.

The same is true of Heb 10:8 except this time the translator inserted the word "offering" instead of the word "sacrifices".

Joe

Exactly. Some translators added this word. It's not there in the Greek. Nor is it included in the meaning of hamartia.

Maybe relook at the interlinear, that may help show the construction.

Much love!