Veteran, I have indeed read 1 John 3:8. And I actually read verses around it also. I have also read Hebrews 2....and verses around it. I have read Matthew 25....yes....yes....and verses around it.
I am glad you want to focus on the simplicity of the scriptures, so many times I run into people who want to make something appear in scripture that just plainly is not there.
Let's start with the most obviously simple. 1 John 3:8 is.....well....its in 1 John not in Genesis 1:1.5 (pretty simple). I am all for comparing scripture with scripture...but another very simple idea is that.....well....there is no scripture between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2....it kinda just runs straight from one to the other.
No, there isn't a Scripture in between Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2 that tells us of an event of God's destruction upon a pre-existing earth. But there are... Scripture references later which directly point back to that Gen.1:2 conditon of the earth with flood waters upon it. It's in Jeremiah 4:23-28, and Isaiah 45:18 where God said He did
not... create the earth "without form" (same Hebrew word 'tohuw' translated as "in vain" in the Isa.45:18 verse).
I am a simple man, I do not hide from it nor try to convince anyone that I am anything other than simple. So I have a few more questions for you:
1. Where was the "beginning" that John referred to? Could it just be as simple as what it says in verse 4? Wasn't John just simply referring to the beginning of the law? Wasn't he building a case that sin is the transgression of the law? Where does he mention creation? Isn't the only reference to a "beginning"....the beginning of the law?
Well, 1 John 3:4 is not 1 John 3:8. They contain different assertions...
I Jn 3:4
4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
(KJV)
I Jn 3:8
8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
(KJV)
Should we just stop reading after those phrases in
blue? or keep going?
Both verses understood together is simply how the devil sinned from the beginning in transgressing the law, and for this reason Christ Jesus was sent to destroy his works, and how alll those who sin (love to sin) follow the devil. It's pointing back to Satan being the very first one that intentionally sinned against God, and that's why John reveals those coming later who sin are of the devil, i.e., of the first sinner, one could say.
2. Is it not written that the wages of sin is death? It is very simple and plain. God said it...I believe it, period. If the fossil record would indicate that death did come before sin....then....well....God did lie because He plainly said it. Is it not written that "in the day you eat it you will surely die"? When was the first death if not there? I do not understand where you get a different idea of "when death occurred".
Yet we know the devil sinned first. And did you know he and his angels have already been judged, and sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire"? (Matt.25:41) In Isaiah 30:31-33, who do you think God is really talking about there? While reading that, we have to remember that no... flesh born man has been judged and sentenced to perish in the "lake of fire" yet, not until after Christ's future thousand years reign per Rev.20.
That's when... the concept of death began, when God first judged and sentenced the devil and his angels to perish in the "lake of fire". This is even why one of Satan's titles is "Death" capitalized in the KJV per Rev.6:8. It's because Satan was assigned the power of death, since he sinned first...
Heb 2:14-15
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
(KJV)
About God's warning to Adam, that in the 'day' he sinned he would die. A day to God is how long per the 2 Pet.3:8 Scripture? As a thousand years. Did you notice Adam didn't quite live to a thousand years? Methuselah lived the oldest (969 years). Even he didn't make it a thousand years.
3. Could Isaiah 45:18 be just simply what it says? Isn't He delineating which "God" is addressing them? And isn't He just simply referring to the fact that He didn't make earth "waste space" by qualifying it with "I formed it to be inhabited"? As a side note...I couldn't help but chuckle when reading the first part of verse 19. While you are claiming that God has some sort of "hidden message" for us in 18 He plainly tells us in 19...well...."I don't speak in secret". If God wanted us to know what happened in Genesis 1:1.5, He wouldn't hide it.
Oh... you're so close. The Hebrew word 'tohuw' ("without form") in Gen.1:2 is the same Hebrew word 'tohuw' ("in vain") per Isaiah 45:18. And God's declaration that the way He created the earth was to be inhabited (lived upon) is not the type of Hebrew description of "without form" in the good ole' KJV Bible (which I use). Instead, it's the idea of a wasted condition. A word study on that Hebrew word 'tohuw' how translated elsewhere in the KJV Bible reveals a conditiion of something or someone originally in a good state having gone bad, becoming worthless, a vanity.
As for Isa.45:19, that's especially His pointing back to what He declared in verse 18, that He did NOT create the earth 'tohuw'. Have to remember, the original reading is in Hebrew, not English. He just told you He didn't create the earth "without form" (tohuw) there. So He just... revealed something very deep, and wants us to note it. Not hiding it at all. Nor did He hide it in the Jer.4:23-28 Scripture, if you know how to interpret it per the rest of God's Word. Nor did Apostles Paul or Peter hide it. There is a difference between God giving us a hint about something, vs. some idea of trying to hide a Truth...
Isa 42:8-9
8 I am the LORD: That is My name: and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.
9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
(KJV)
If God tells us of "new things", "before they spring forth", then have you... understood all things that are to come to pass for our future? If so, then you must become everyone's teacher as God's direct representative. And if not, then how is the simplicity of God's Word as written really meant? I'll tell you so you won't be guessing. Understanding in His Word of what... He has already written can only be properly understood through Him and His Son by The Holy Spirit as we study to show ourselves approved of Him.
4. I also read other parts of the bible (if you can believe it) and one that comes to mind during these discussions is Hebrews 11:3. There are some verses that can stand alone in the bible, and others need the context around them. Hebrews 11:3 is one that can be plucked straight from scripture and still make sense, but please read the other verses around it just to make sure. It is the great skipped over verse the the "Great hall of faith", but carries no less significance than all the examples of faith that get the attention. These things are to be "understood through faith" and we are constantly trying to figure out in these conversations "what the invisible things are by the visible". We are backing into it. Boggles the mind when you really think about it. We are trying to determine the things not seen....by what we can see....well....they are still invisible and to be accepted by faith.
I accept what God's Word states as written, by that same Faith as those written of in Hebrews 11. Grasping about the future new heavens and a new earth can also be mind-boggling, yet God told us about it in His Word, even with many detailed descriptions. If He gave us to understand that, then why do some disregard that He also showed us in His Word what came to pass before? Afterall, isn't that what the whole creation account of Genesis is about, past events? He did limit our scope of those views though, but they're aren't near as limitied in scope as many brethren tend to think.
4. Your premise is the Gap Theory is only that a undetermined amount of time came in between 1:1,2. Which at its face value is true. I have never run into anyone however that stops there, which is why the "common misunderstandings" about the Gap theory. The problem is, in practice, everyone ultimately inserts something into that extra time that they have created (ie evolution, Jesus and satan brothers). Can you really pretend that the Gap theory is "only" an "undetermined time period"? What is your purpose in needing that time? What are you asserting happened in that time? Why is it so important to you that the extra time is there?
Yet in my study in the Bible Study Forum section called 'Genesis Time Gap', I did not just stop at Gen.1:2. And I am definitely... not inserting any false idea into it, nor evolution theory! I stick to Genesis 'as written'. But trying to limit ourselves by not studying relevant Bible Scripture about it in other Books of God's Word is like trying to remove those parts of God's Word as if they never existed. That I cannot do, and hope you don't either.
That undeterminable amount of time between the Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2 verses is there, and you covered it by the Isaiah 45:18 Scripture for one, simply because God said... He did not create... the earth "without form" (tohuw). That is a direct type statement directly pointing back to Gen.1, in simplicity. So how is it that some folks continually search out ways to steer around that pointer, instead of accepting what He said there in simplicity?
Instead of having created the earth "without form", He said He created it to be inhabited, which is the direct opposite... idea of "without form, and void". That's a very simple verse to understand pointing back to Gen.1:2. And with the Jer.4 example, He gives us a little more of just 'how'... He meant that with a time of destruction and shaking upon the earth (even with the Jer.4:27-28 verses pointing to the earth being put in a state of corruption like Paul taught in Rom.8).
So if God did not create the earth "without form" (tohuw) like He said, but that's the condition Gen.1:2 states, then it doesn't take a whole lot of common sense to figure out that Gen.1:2 is not about the time when He first created the earth, but a condition of the earth that happened afterwards. And by following the state of those 'waters' there, the dry land appears only after He moves those waters around upon it, not showing creation of earth matter there either. But the traditional interpretation instead
inserts... the idea there in Gen.1:9 that those waters somehow involved the creation of the earth that actually was already underneath, first created back at Gen.1:1, like He said, "In the beginning...".
5. Genesis 1 is a string of factual statements. It starts with "In the beginning God". Notice that God didn't set out to prove to anyone that He exists....He just simply stated it. The rest of Genesis 1 should be taken that way also in my opinion. He didn't set out to prove to anyone what He did during creation, He just stated it. According to Hebrews 11:3...shouldn't we just accept these factual statements by faith? Should we be careful what we add to them? Wouldn't God have told us....if He really wanted us to know for sure?
Yeah, starts with what? "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." That statement is emphatic in the Hebrew of Genesis 1:1. If the rest of Genesis 1 is taken that way, then inserting the idea that God was creating earth matter again after that should not happen. But that's exactly what the traditional interpretation does, thinking the dry land appearing means creation of earth matter when no such direct type statement exists there. And then men's theories from science are piled high on top of that false tower of earth matter created with those waters simply being moved to reveal the dry land already underneath.
Well, God did tell us, in more ways than one.
Gen 1:1-10
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and
darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon
the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said,
Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And
God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And
God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let
the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth;
and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
(KJV)
Same waters He gathered to make the dry land appear, are the same waters back at Gen.1:2.
Ps 104:5-6
5 Who laid
the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
6
Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
(KJV)
