The "Millenium Rule" SCRIPTURES ONLY thread

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keithr

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Revelation does not follow a linear timeline, it is a symbolic sharing of visions by John.
It does describe events that will happen, and it is mostly descibed in the order of events. Revelation 1:19 (WEB):

(19) Write therefore the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will happen hereafter;​

how many resurrections do you see in Matt. 24:31?
One - but which one?! There is one resurrection for the Church and a seperate resurrection for the rest of mankind.

and in 2 Thess. 4:16-17 we see ALL THE DEAD IN CHRIST being raised, followed by ALL THE ALIVE IN CHRIST without the slightest implication of any significant period of time dividing them.
Correct. That is the first resurrection, the resurrection of Christians only. It is a resurrection to become a new spirit being - a new creation of God, when we will be adopted as sons of God.

1 Cor. 15:51-52
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​
Eph. 1:5
(5) having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire,​
2 Cor. 5:17
(17) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.​

All non-Christians will be resurrected (and judged) later.

now, do you find anywhere else in ALLLLLLL of scripture where there are two separate resurrections, divided by a period of time, specifically detailed, or do you find the words ANYWHERE "second resurrection"?
Well we do find the expression "first resurrection", which implies a second resurrection must also happen. Just like the expression "second death" means that there must have been a first death previously, but we don't find the expression "first death".
 

M3n0r4h

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It is not per scripture in the slightest. It's per your own personal imagination. The damned are in Christ?? Foolishness.
those who are IN Christ yet work iniquity, live in lawlessness, live in daily habitual sin, break the 10 Commandments, will be damned apparently.

I have given scripture to prove my case. there's plenty of that proof found in the Bible.

I already gave:
John 15:2,6
Matt. 7:23

here's some more, but not all:
Matt. 13:41-42

"The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

now, you tell me. from where exactly are these offenders and workers of iniquity gathered in that passage?

@PinSeeker
that passage also proves that the Kingdom already exists when Jesus returns and He is judging those offenders based on ongoing, and previous, performance within that Kingdom.

this firmly disproves a Millennial kingdom, post-second advent, as this all takes place upon Jesus' return per Matt. 24:29-31, Eph. 1:10, 2 Thess. 2:8, 1 Thess. 4:16-17.
 

M3n0r4h

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Hm. Right, and what I'm saying is that since it refers to these people having experienced the first resurrection, it implies that there must be a second resurrection, in which some ~ or all ~ are not blessed or holy. over whom the second death has power, who will not be priests of God and of Christ... everything contrary to what Revelation 20:6 goes on to say. Do you dispute that?
yes and the Bible disputes it as well with its complete lack of any teaching of that concept.

you say you know, and agree, that Revelation is a book of symbolism, but you switch back and forth between a literal and a symbolic interpretation to suit the different parts of your argument.

Jesus says in John 5 that there is one single resurrection with two outcomes - the reward for those who did good and the reward for those who did evil. the Bible fully supports THAT concept with other end times passages like Matt. 13:41-42 where Jesus, upon His return, gathers the evil people from out of the already existing Kingdom and punishes them for their evil deeds that took place previous to His coming.

as always, the bottom line is this:
if you cannot support ANY wild interpretation of Revelation with scripture from other books in the Bible, that interpretation has no validity and is not a sound doctrine within the scriptures.
What I would submit to you, M3n0r4h, is that what is described in Revelation 20:4-6, is a spiritual resurrection that happens to each individual member of God's elect sometime during the course of their lives here on earth. It is not general, but specific to God's elect, their conversion to Christ, being raised from the dead spiritually. This happens through the course of the millennium, and is complete when the "thousand years," which is not literally a thousand-year period, but the fullness of God's time in saving all of His Israel. Perhaps you agree.

Then, there is a physical resurrection upon Jesus's return, after He finally defeats Satan (Revelation 20:7-10). Then the final Judgment ensues, the Judgment before the Great White Throne. This is the hour in which, as Jesus says in John 5:28-29, "all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." Again, perhaps you agree.
and all of this takes place PRIOR to Jesus second coming, just as the Bible shows in many places.

there is zero evidence for a Millennium AFTER Christ's return.
 

M3n0r4h

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There is one resurrection for the Church and a seperate resurrection for the rest of mankind.
you have no evidence for that in the Bible anywhere.

literally NONE.

John 5 shows ONE resurrection with a judgment for the evil of that resurrection.
Matt. 13:41-42 shows Christ, upon His only return, gathering the evil from His already existing Kingdom on the earth and punishing them.
Matt. 24:31 shows ONE resurrection.

I haven't even gotten to the fact that it is mentioned SIX TIMES in the book of John that THE resurrection happens on the LAST DAY. there can only be ONE Last Day. Jesus Himself mentions it 5 times and then Jesus close friend mentions that she KNOWS that her brother will be raised in THE (ONE, SINGLE) resurrection on the Last Day.

why didn't she say the FIRST resurrection?
why didn't she mention resurrectionS? PLURAL

the answer is that the Bible does not teach a second physical resurrection anywhere from stem to stern.
All non-Christians will be resurrected (and judged) later.
that is pure speculation.
Well we do find the expression "first resurrection", which implies a second resurrection must also happen.
and that is the ONLY, and greatest, evidence all of you have for an entire doctrine that is not supported in the Bible.
Just like the expression "second death" means that there must have been a first death previously, but we don't find the expression "first death".
that's because it is obvious that it is speaking of a physical death that comes first for all of us.

and, interestingly, this ALSO proves my argument:
if there is a second death, that means that it must come in a SPIRITUAL existence AFTER the physical world and our physical bodies are gone.

therefore, there is no place for a SECOND physical resurrection.

beautiful!
 

keithr

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and all of this takes place PRIOR to Jesus second coming, just as the Bible shows in many places.

there is zero evidence for a Millennium AFTER Christ's return.
Err, what about Revelation 20:6?

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​
 

M3n0r4h

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Err, what about Revelation 20:6?

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​
happening now.
 

PinSeeker

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...that passage also proves that the Kingdom already exists when Jesus returns and He is judging those offenders based on ongoing, and previous, performance within that Kingdom.
Sure. The Kingdom has existed since His first advent. Don't you agree?

this firmly disproves a Millennial kingdom, post-second advent, as this all takes place upon Jesus' return per Matt. 24:29-31, Eph. 1:10, 2 Thess. 2:8, 1 Thess. 4:16-17.
Well, sure, but as I've said ~ and I think you agree ~ the millennium... and His millennial reign, will be over at His second advent. I mean, He will still be King ~ He will always be our King ~ but the millennium, the present church age, will be over.

yes and the Bible disputes it as well with its complete lack of any teaching of that concept.
:) In your... humble... opinion.

you say you know, and agree, that Revelation is a book of symbolism, but you switch back and forth between a literal and a symbolic interpretation to suit the different parts of your argument.
No, I don't, M3n0r4h. The things described in Revelation are symbols themselves, but they represent real things, events that have (even in the first century when John wrote Revelation) and are and will really take place. Which you agree with, I think... The problem is that many want to make one-to-one correlations with things, and for the most part the things actually have one-to-many relationships with real things.

Jesus says in John 5 that there is one single resurrection with two outcomes - the reward for those who did good and the reward for those who did evil. the Bible fully supports THAT concept with other end times passages like Matt. 13:41-42 where Jesus, upon His return, gathers the evil people from out of the already existing Kingdom and punishes them for their evil deeds that took place previous to His coming.
Is... this not exactly what I've been saying? It is... This is the second resurrection, though. I'll say three things, one I've said before and a then a second and third:
  • Since there's a "first resurrection" mentioned in Revelation 20 ~ and since it only refers to a limited group, because "blessed is the one who shares in the first resurrection" implies that not all share in the first resurrection, only believers ~ it is strongly implied there must be a second resurrection.
  • In the same vein as there is a first and a second death, there is necessarily a first and second resurrection.
  • The first resurrection is spiritual and limited/specific to believers and occurs before the first death, which is not limited and is physical (all human beings die); the second resurrection is physical and general to all people (all are bodily raised from their tombs) and, yes, occurs after Jesus's return and final defeat of Satan, and the second death is limited/specific to unbelievers as a result of the final Judgment.
as always, the bottom line is this: if you cannot support ANY wild interpretation of Revelation with scripture from other books in the Bible, that interpretation has no validity and is not a sound doctrine within the scriptures.
Sure. "Wild interpretation"... LOL!

and all of this takes place PRIOR to Jesus second coming, just as the Bible shows in many places.
Why don't you just say "I agree," M3n0r4h? LOL!

there is zero evidence for a Millennium AFTER Christ's return.
Much agreed. LOL!

Grace and peace to you.
 

keithr

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you have no evidence for that in the Bible anywhere.

literally NONE.
The first resurrection, of the Church only:

Revelation 20:6 (WEB):​
(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

(Only Christians will become kings and priest and share Christ's inheritance - 1 Peter 2:9, "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that you may proclaim the excellence of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light".)

Jesus taught that he would come back for the Church, John 14:2-3 (WEB):

(2) In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.​
(3) If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.

which is the first resurrection/rapture, as Paul describes in 1 Thessalonians 4:

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​
(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

The rest of mankind (the "rest of the dead") have a seperate resurrection (the resurrection that the Jews, like Martha, knew about):

Revelation 20:13 (WEB):​
(13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.​

I haven't even gotten to the fact that it is mentioned SIX TIMES in the book of John that THE resurrection happens on the LAST DAY. there can only be ONE Last Day. Jesus Himself mentions it 5 times and then Jesus close friend mentions that she KNOWS that her brother will be raised in THE (ONE, SINGLE) resurrection on the Last Day.

why didn't she say the FIRST resurrection?
why didn't she mention resurrectionS? PLURAL
Because she didn't know about the separate resurrection of the Church, which had not yet been revealed at that time. As the Cambridge Bible Notes says:

I know that he shall rise again] This conviction was probably in advance of average Jewish belief on the subject. The O.T. declarations as to a resurrection are so scanty and obscure, that the Sadducees could deny the doctrine, and the Pharisees had to resort to oral tradition to maintain it (see on Mar_12:18; Act_23:8).​

It was a mystery that Paul revealed many years later:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
(15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.​
(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​
(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

that's because it is obvious that it is speaking of a physical death that comes first for all of us.
And it's obvious that when it speaks of the first resurrection that there must be a second resurrection, and that if those in the first resurrection are not subject to the second death then those that are must have had a part in a second, different resurrection.

and, interestingly, this ALSO proves my argument:
if there is a second death, that means that it must come in a SPIRITUAL existence AFTER the physical world and our physical bodies are gone.

therefore, there is no place for a SECOND physical resurrection.
Why does it mean that?! The Jews believed in a resurrection to human (physical) life again. They, and all mankind (except Christians) will get that, for Jesus paid the penalty for sin for all mankind (1 Timothy 2:6, "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time";
Romans 5:6, "For while we were yet weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly"). They are resurrected at the start of te 1,000 years of Christ's reign, and if at the end of the 1,000 years they fail the test for eternal life then they will suffer a second death. Death is death, the cessation of life - physical or spiritual is irrelevant. Only Christians are promised a change of nature to a spiritual nature, and they will then be immortal and never suffer a second death - 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (WEB):

(50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.​
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we [all Christians] will all be changed,​
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​
(53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​
(54) But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”​
 

keithr

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happening now.
Really? I didn't spot any Christians being caught away and disappearing from the earth. When did that happen. And if Jesus is now ruling with a rod of iron and Satan has been bound up, well, it's definitely not working! And if, Revelation 1:7 (WEB):

(7) Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. All the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Even so, Amen.​

how come nobody noticed? When did everyone on earth mourn over Jesus? I must have missed that too! o_O

Plus, if it's happening now then we must have missed out, for all of the Church is resurrected or caught up at the same time. If we're not with them now then we never will be. :disappointed:
 
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M3n0r4h

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the millennium, the present church age, will be over.
I don't subscribe to dispensational rhetoric.

if you agree with everything I've been saying, then why do you keep posting as if there's a big BUT in your opinion?

where is your point of disagreement?

if none, we're done.
 

M3n0r4h

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The first resurrection, of the Church only:

Revelation 20:6 (WEB):​
(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

(Only Christians will become kings and priest and share Christ's inheritance - 1 Peter 2:9, "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that you may proclaim the excellence of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light".)

Jesus taught that he would come back for the Church, John 14:2-3 (WEB):

(2) In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.​
(3) If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.

which is the first resurrection/rapture, as Paul describes in 1 Thessalonians 4:

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​
(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

The rest of mankind (the "rest of the dead") have a seperate resurrection (the resurrection that the Jews, like Martha, knew about):

Revelation 20:13 (WEB):​
(13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.​


Because she didn't know about the separate resurrection of the Church, which had not yet been revealed at that time. As the Cambridge Bible Notes says:

I know that he shall rise again] This conviction was probably in advance of average Jewish belief on the subject. The O.T. declarations as to a resurrection are so scanty and obscure, that the Sadducees could deny the doctrine, and the Pharisees had to resort to oral tradition to maintain it (see on Mar_12:18; Act_23:8).​

It was a mystery that Paul revealed many years later:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
(15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.​
(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​
(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​


And it's obvious that when it speaks of the first resurrection that there must be a second resurrection, and that if those in the first resurrection are not subject to the second death then those that are must have had a part in a second, different resurrection.


Why does it mean that?! The Jews believed in a resurrection to human (physical) life again. They, and all mankind (except Christians) will get that, for Jesus paid the penalty for sin for all mankind (1 Timothy 2:6, "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time";
Romans 5:6, "For while we were yet weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly"). They are resurrected at the start of te 1,000 years of Christ's reign, and if at the end of the 1,000 years they fail the test for eternal life then they will suffer a second death. Death is death, the cessation of life - physical or spiritual is irrelevant. Only Christians are promised a change of nature to a spiritual nature, and they will then be immortal and never suffer a second death - 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (WEB):

(50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.​
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we [all Christians] will all be changed,​
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​
(53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​
(54) But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”​
your argument for Pre-Mil is like somebody having one puzzle piece with no distinct, specific, images on it, just shapes and colors. without scripture outside of Revelation 20, you have no confirmation of what those shapes and colors are, or mean.

and to bolster your case that the shapes and colors mean what YOU say they mean, you continuously come back to that unconfirmed puzzle piece .... in order to PROVE your puzzle piece. in essence, your puzzle piece is PROOF of your puzzle piece.

it's ridiculous and it is the usual M.O. of Pre-Mils in every debate I've ever seen or partaken in.

in order to prove YOUR interpretation of Rev. 20, you will always USE Rev. 20 to prove Rev. 20.

that's just not how the Bible works, my ... friend.

the Bible defines, and confirms, itself via other books, verses and passages from elsewhere in the Bible.

concerning the Pre-Mil contention, not only does that confirmation from scripture NOT EXIST, but what does exist, concerning the times in question, fully CONTRADICTS Pre-Mil.
 

ElieG12

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It doesn't matter how many virtual "kingdoms" believers like you project... In real life, you don't reign anywhere, and if you were, well, how badly are you doing it, because you haven't solved any world problem but that Christendom with all its sects is actually a problem for the world, getting involved in political issues and supporting human conflicts by taking sides.. It is obvious that those who speak of a "spiritual" realm are only speaking of a mental fantasy that they have in their imagination and that no one else can make out. That IS NOT the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.
 
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M3n0r4h

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Really? I didn't spot any Christians being caught away and disappearing from the earth. When did that happen.
it didn't because Dispensationalism, from which your Pre-Trib position stems, is hog wash, created by a man who was hog wash - in concert with, and funded by, a people who are, and always have been, hog wash.
And if Jesus is now ruling with a rod of iron and Satan has been bound up, well, it's definitely not working! And if, Revelation 1:7 (WEB):

(7) Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. All the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Even so, Amen.​

how come nobody noticed? When did everyone on earth mourn over Jesus? I must have missed that too! o_O

Plus, if it's happening now then we must have missed out, for all of the Church is resurrected or caught up at the same time. If we're not with them now then we never will be. :disappointed:
all Pre-Mil, Pre-Trib, Dispensational hog wash.
 

ElieG12

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The Scriptures talk more than once of the "Thousands Years" of the Kingdom of Jesus upon the Earth.

A true believer is not looking at theological sides to support one of them and reject the others... A true believer checks with the Scriptures for himself if what he is being taught is supported by the Scriptures or not.
 
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PinSeeker

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I don't subscribe to dispensational rhetoric.
LOL! Neither do I! Dispensationalism is... well, it's just goofy. :)

if you agree with everything I've been saying, then why do you keep posting as if there's a big BUT in your opinion?
I... don't even know what this means... LOL!

where is your point of disagreement?
With the fact that you say there are not two resurrections. My goodness. If you agree with everything I just said in my previous point, then we're good.

if none, we're done.
It's probably a good idea anyway. Wow.

Grace and peace to you.
 

ewq1938

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"The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

now, you tell me. from where exactly are these offenders and workers of iniquity gathered in that passage?


There's nothing shocking there. All kingdoms become his at the second coming and they will be full of wicked people. None of them are "in Christ" s you have claimed.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 

M3n0r4h

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LOL! Neither do I! Dispensationalism is... well, it's just goofy. :)


I... don't even know what this means... LOL!


With the fact that you say there are not two resurrections. My goodness. If you agree with everything I just said in my previous point, then we're good.


It's probably a good idea anyway. Wow.

Grace and peace to you.
there are not two physical resurrections.

I'm so glad we're friends.
 

ewq1938

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there are not two physical resurrections.


Yes there are. The righteous and the unrighteous will experience physical resurrections. The righteous will become immortals, and the unrighteous will die a second time in the LOF.
 

M3n0r4h

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There's nothing shocking there. All kingdoms become his at the second coming and they will be full of wicked people. None of them are "in Christ" s you have claimed.
that's pretty funny.

so you want to claim that where it says "out of HIS Kingdom" in Matt. 13:41-42 it actually means that Jesus plucked some random ne'er-do-wells from some random kingdom He'd just acquired the deed to and punished them?

that's pretty good actually.

touche

completely unbiblical, but pretty resourceful.

nice shot, man.