You can start at 33 mins to hear Pelagius did not teach what is claimed. Just reminded me what a dog Augustine was and how the apples Calvin and Luther, did not fall far from the tree.
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You can start at 33 mins to hear Pelagius did not teach what is claimed. Just reminded me what a dog Augustine was and how the apples Calvin and Luther, did not fall far from the tree.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
The Bible is the inspired word of God.
But it’s not Alive and Active in The Spirit..
That’s who we need to be Born Again by...just as Gods word says..Born Of The Spirit.
Not Born of the written word.
The witness in our spirit backs up the truth of God’s written word.
He witnesses Gods truth to our spirit...which must always be checked with the written word..
But it’s not Alive and Active in The Spirit..
That’s who we need to be Born Again by...just as Gods word says..Born Of The Spirit.
Not Born of the written word.
The witness in our spirit backs up the truth of God’s written word.
He witnesses Gods truth to our spirit...which must always be checked with the written word..
@Johann
I am not a follower of Pelagius, I just hate injustice and the near worship of Augustine which I will educate people about whenever I get the chance.
I am not a follower of Pelagius, I just hate injustice and the near worship of Augustine which I will educate people about whenever I get the chance.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
We are warned against false gospels.....it's important.
Yes, I agree, and what does it mean that our foundation and cornerstone is Jesus? Who/which we received into our being when we came to faith. Our inner man renewed after the image of He who created him? Perfect. Righteous. Holy. All of which attributes are imputed to us because He lives in us. Which Epi denies. He also calls non born again Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters. And believes that people who don't know Christ can be saved based on their own righteousness. So just be careful is all I'm saying. He has some truth, but also GREAT error. It's usually the good part of the mixture that attracts and draws us into the error. We all can have some minor errors but mixture of a false gospel is not of God. Can the same fountain bring forth both bitter and sweet waters?
For me it is going back to what really matters, the Scriptures and a living and abiding relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, believing His every Imperative and Indicatives- living in the sphere of the Holy Spirit. Though I am a train-wreck.
Matthew 25-
James 2:17 (ESV):
"So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."
Context: James argues that true faith is evidenced by works; faith without corresponding actions is ineffective and lacks true spiritual vitality.
James 2:20 (ESV):
"Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?"
Context: James challenges the notion that mere intellectual belief or acknowledgment of faith is sufficient, emphasizing the necessity of active demonstration of faith through works.
James 2:26 (ESV):
"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead."
Context: James uses the analogy of the body and spirit to illustrate that faith without corresponding works is as lifeless and ineffective as a dead body.
Matthew 7:21-23 (ESV):
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Context: Jesus emphasizes the importance of doing the will of God as evidence of genuine faith, warning against mere lip service without corresponding obedience.
Ephesians 2:10 (ESV):
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Context: Although emphasizing salvation by grace through faith earlier in the chapter, Paul clarifies that believers are saved for the purpose of performing good works as evidence of their faith.
These passages collectively affirm that genuine faith in Christ is inseparable from a life of obedience and good works. They highlight the biblical teaching that true faith is active and transformative, resulting in a life characterized by righteous actions and obedience to God's will.
I believe the above Scripture passages and would rather walk my talk than talk my walk.
Shalom
J.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
God gifted me faith I didn’t come to faith , I have been Born Again by Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit...not by Jesus, Jesus is no longer walking the earth.
I’m not understanding any of this Sis, so I’ll leave it there..
Probably a mistake on my end-I cut it rather than reply to it.
That's why I said-we should be followers of Jesus Christ and be obedient to His commandments, not Pelagius or Augustine.
J.
You feel free to let me know when I get out of line sis.....we all need reminding now and then and that's what I'm doing.
We musn't go around assuming or accusing people of not being born again because of difference in doctrine. We can have the truth in our hearts while our minds are grappling with how to understand it or put it into words. Even when we are mistaken in our understanding about things it doesn't mean we aren't born again. I often see arguing "about words" even while both hearts are really in agreement, lol.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
What really matters is the Living God...he is to be worshipped in spirit and truth.
The Bible is not God..it’s the inspired word of God...that is where the Spirit helps us to grow in our spirit as Gods word is Spirit it’s not understood in the human intellect.
His written word is understood in our spirit as we are spirit children of Gods.
The Bible is not God..it’s the inspired word of God...that is where the Spirit helps us to grow in our spirit as Gods word is Spirit it’s not understood in the human intellect.
His written word is understood in our spirit as we are spirit children of Gods.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
I’m not accusing I am going by Gods word on how his word says we are Born Of The Spirit.
There is only one way to be Born Again and that is by Gods Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit.
There is no other way so yes I will question those who post how they became Born Again and will rebuke their testimony if it’s not biblical..phoney counterfeit.
I have had accusations made against me that I’m not Born Again, by @Johann by @Eternally Grateful ..do you here me complaining, certainly not..God gifted me faith ..which will remain in my heart until I die.
Sis, have you actually seen the accusations you have just made against @Episkopos ..come on Sis, please open your eyes before you judge me..
You have accused him of being a false teacher...
This is what I meant when I mentioned arguing about words. Technicalities. We can mean the same thing but be using different words.
Here is the corrected statement--
Corrected Statement:
God gifted me with faith, and I came to faith through His grace. I have been born again by the witness of God's living Holy Spirit, who continues to work in believers today through Jesus Christ, who is eternally present with His Church.
Scripture References:
Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV):
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Context: Paul emphasizes that salvation, including faith, is a gift from God, not something earned or generated by oneself.
John 3:3-8 (ESV):
"Jesus answered him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'"
Context: Jesus teaches Nicodemus about the necessity of spiritual rebirth through the Holy Spirit to enter the kingdom of God, highlighting the work of the Spirit in regeneration.
John 16:7-15 (ESV):
"Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you."
Context: Jesus promises the coming of the Holy Spirit (the Helper), who will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, continuing His work on earth through believers.
1 Peter 1:3 (ESV):
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."
Context: Peter attributes our new birth to God's mercy and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, emphasizing the ongoing spiritual renewal by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 1:8 (ESV):
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
Context: Jesus promises the disciples the empowerment of the Holy Spirit to be His witnesses, indicating the ongoing presence and work of Jesus through the Spirit in the Church.
These Scriptures affirm that faith is a gift from God's grace, and the Holy Spirit plays a central role in the regeneration and ongoing spiritual life of believers. Jesus Christ, through His Spirit, continues to be present and active in the lives of His followers, guiding, empowering, and transforming them according to God's will.
But I guess this would also not "resonate" with your spirit.
WHOSE Spirit? Jesus...His Spirit, the Spirit of Christ. He Himself in us.
Wasn't judging you.
Pretty much yes in my opinion, because of denying the FOUNDATION/CORNERSTONE.....that pretty much denies the faith of Christ as far as I can tell. The gospel.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Ok, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
I’m not here to argue..but I will expose what I believe to be false doctrine..according to God’s written word..
Ritajanice
Born-Again
You bear false witness yet again .
Those are not my exact words.
You have added to my words.
Show me where I said this above...Stop!!..
This is for you @ChristisGod do you agree?
Interpreting Romans 7.
There have been two interpretations of Romans 7 which have dominated church history and which are sometimes known as the Primitive and the Post-Primitive. Augustine held to the Primitive in his early years, as did some of the Church Fathers and writers before Augustine, but changed his stance later. The reason that he changed was due to his heated discourses with Pelagius. There have been two interpretations widely held since Augustine, the original and the one from Augustine called the Post Primitive which did not exist before he adopted and popularised it. The third, was held by Pelagius and claims that sinlessness is possible in this life.
We must conclude that the man depicted in Romans 7 is a) a man who has only just come to Christ for forgiveness and has attempted previously to be righteous through obeying the law, (or as commonly known as an unbeliever) and the Primitive view, b) the normal state of a Christian which is held by Calvinists in the main and brought in by Augustine and c) the believer who has come to the crisis in his faith and inability to keep God’s law in the manner that he knows he must, whereby he will be delivered from the body of sin to the state where there is no more condemnation, the view which became widespread during the ‘Celtic period’, and Holiness Movement of the 19th C. There is no other viable interpretation of these texts.
The Primitive view and the one which is widely held today for example by many Arminians, is that Romans 7 describes the salvation experience and Paul is writing as an unregenerate soul. Augustine said: “It is understood that man here described who was never under grace” (Homilies). This is the view that Augustine held until Pelagius challenged him over his view that man is totally depraved.
“In his argument, Pelagius referred to the passage under consideration, saying that this was a palpable case in which, by the universal assent of the church, the state and character of the unregenerate man is described. He then asked, if approving the right, and hating the wrong, and 'delighting in the law of God' did not imply that there was something good even in such a man? Augustine could not deny the fact, the case being so paliable, of the universal agreement of the church in the deduction that it was the unregenerate man referred to in the passage; nor did he perceive how, admitting the correctness of the universally received exposition, he could meet the argument of his opponent. Under such perplexity, Augustine denied the validity of his own and the universal, and adopted the few and before, unheard of, exposition, a most needless resort and a most calamitous one for the spiritual good of the church” (J Schmidz Romans 7)
Augustine did not accept Pelagius’ argument and agree with his interpretation. Pelagius was trying to show Augustine that Romans 7 was not to be understood as the so called Primitive view but the Apostolic view. Augustine realised his first view was untenable that Paul described the unregenerate but the second view was untenable for Augustine because it says that man can stop sinning.
Pelagius taught the Apostolic view which is that Paul is speaking about the Christian in Romans 7 but not in what should be his normal condition. Those who do not accept the view that it is a Christian speaking point to the fact that there is no mention of grace or of the work of the Holy Spirit in the chapter. But this is not because there is no Holy Spirit or grace. Far from it. The opposite is true actually. However, the person describing it is not aware of it. It seems as though God has deserted actually, as the person comes to an extreme point because God has convicted the man of his sinfulness. Paul is discussing experience here not doctrine. He came to a point of time when he saw himself as God saw him as he sought acceptance through the works of the law. And all Christians seek to do this unless they adopt Augustine’s position and excuse their sin. and until they come to the point whereby they admit their powerlessness.
The misunderstanding of the early writers teachings in saying that Romans 7 is the unregenerate person could be that some meant an unregenerate person as a believer who has not arrived at the sanctification experience, which was what Wesley meant by the 'Almost Christian' In the Bible, salvation sanctification and justification are all one event but describing the differing aspects of it. This could means that one is not really saved until they are entirely sanctified. Jesus came to save us from our sins and until this is done, then we are still in them and not saved even though we have been given 'The power to become the son's of God' as a possibility but not yet an actuality until the provision of sanctification through the cross, is appropriated by man and he is delivered from not just the penalty from sin but also the power and the presence.
This Apostolic view has been rejected by most of the church through the ages and the reason why Pelagius has had such bad press. By his dispute with Augustine and his understanding of Romans 7, he did not teach that the Christian could stop sinning on his own accord. Far from it. It needed the divine interaction of God to bring about the change or deliverance needed to get Paul from Romans7 to Romans 8.
Interpreting Romans 7.
There have been two interpretations of Romans 7 which have dominated church history and which are sometimes known as the Primitive and the Post-Primitive. Augustine held to the Primitive in his early years, as did some of the Church Fathers and writers before Augustine, but changed his stance later. The reason that he changed was due to his heated discourses with Pelagius. There have been two interpretations widely held since Augustine, the original and the one from Augustine called the Post Primitive which did not exist before he adopted and popularised it. The third, was held by Pelagius and claims that sinlessness is possible in this life.
We must conclude that the man depicted in Romans 7 is a) a man who has only just come to Christ for forgiveness and has attempted previously to be righteous through obeying the law, (or as commonly known as an unbeliever) and the Primitive view, b) the normal state of a Christian which is held by Calvinists in the main and brought in by Augustine and c) the believer who has come to the crisis in his faith and inability to keep God’s law in the manner that he knows he must, whereby he will be delivered from the body of sin to the state where there is no more condemnation, the view which became widespread during the ‘Celtic period’, and Holiness Movement of the 19th C. There is no other viable interpretation of these texts.
The Primitive view and the one which is widely held today for example by many Arminians, is that Romans 7 describes the salvation experience and Paul is writing as an unregenerate soul. Augustine said: “It is understood that man here described who was never under grace” (Homilies). This is the view that Augustine held until Pelagius challenged him over his view that man is totally depraved.
“In his argument, Pelagius referred to the passage under consideration, saying that this was a palpable case in which, by the universal assent of the church, the state and character of the unregenerate man is described. He then asked, if approving the right, and hating the wrong, and 'delighting in the law of God' did not imply that there was something good even in such a man? Augustine could not deny the fact, the case being so paliable, of the universal agreement of the church in the deduction that it was the unregenerate man referred to in the passage; nor did he perceive how, admitting the correctness of the universally received exposition, he could meet the argument of his opponent. Under such perplexity, Augustine denied the validity of his own and the universal, and adopted the few and before, unheard of, exposition, a most needless resort and a most calamitous one for the spiritual good of the church” (J Schmidz Romans 7)
Augustine did not accept Pelagius’ argument and agree with his interpretation. Pelagius was trying to show Augustine that Romans 7 was not to be understood as the so called Primitive view but the Apostolic view. Augustine realised his first view was untenable that Paul described the unregenerate but the second view was untenable for Augustine because it says that man can stop sinning.
Pelagius taught the Apostolic view which is that Paul is speaking about the Christian in Romans 7 but not in what should be his normal condition. Those who do not accept the view that it is a Christian speaking point to the fact that there is no mention of grace or of the work of the Holy Spirit in the chapter. But this is not because there is no Holy Spirit or grace. Far from it. The opposite is true actually. However, the person describing it is not aware of it. It seems as though God has deserted actually, as the person comes to an extreme point because God has convicted the man of his sinfulness. Paul is discussing experience here not doctrine. He came to a point of time when he saw himself as God saw him as he sought acceptance through the works of the law. And all Christians seek to do this unless they adopt Augustine’s position and excuse their sin. and until they come to the point whereby they admit their powerlessness.
The misunderstanding of the early writers teachings in saying that Romans 7 is the unregenerate person could be that some meant an unregenerate person as a believer who has not arrived at the sanctification experience, which was what Wesley meant by the 'Almost Christian' In the Bible, salvation sanctification and justification are all one event but describing the differing aspects of it. This could means that one is not really saved until they are entirely sanctified. Jesus came to save us from our sins and until this is done, then we are still in them and not saved even though we have been given 'The power to become the son's of God' as a possibility but not yet an actuality until the provision of sanctification through the cross, is appropriated by man and he is delivered from not just the penalty from sin but also the power and the presence.
This Apostolic view has been rejected by most of the church through the ages and the reason why Pelagius has had such bad press. By his dispute with Augustine and his understanding of Romans 7, he did not teach that the Christian could stop sinning on his own accord. Far from it. It needed the divine interaction of God to bring about the change or deliverance needed to get Paul from Romans7 to Romans 8.
Your blasphemous statement--
"God gifted me faith I didn’t come to faith , I have been Born Again by Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit...not by Jesus, Jesus is no longer walking the earth."
When you SHOULD have said--
God gifted me with faith, and I came to faith through His grace. I have been born again by the witness of God's living Holy Spirit, who continues to work in believers today through Jesus
Ritajanice
Born-Again
I am Born Of The Spirit..I go by Gods Living Witness and then by Gods written word.
Nowhere does it say I was Born Of Jesus..
No idea what you are saying in the bold underlined part.
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