I am continuing the debate between me and Ricky from this thread
http://www.christianityboard.com/early-cor...uran-t5316.htmlHere
Ricky wrote:
BismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimQuote:Originally Posted by Elisha Kai I am still waiting for Ricky to tell me where the Qur'an clarifies that the New Testament is corrupted, and where it tells the people to reject it. Seems like it's simply to say that Quran was never recognize New Testament. So far as I concern what was the Quran recognize are Gospel (Ingeel) that sent to Jesus(pbuh) the book of Moses which sent to Moses(pbuh), Zhaboor(Psalms) which sent to David(pbuh) and other prophets (pbu all of them) revelation (which is before Jesus(pbuh) come), and not to Mark, Matthew, moreover to Luke nor to Paul. As a mater a fact Quran has told that whatever that was not come from God to His Messenger(prophet) that will make them go to hell. This is as far as I know and read.Quote:Surely if the Qur'an is the Word of God, and the Injeel is corrupted, this would be a simple matter.I am surprised, Ricky its taking you all this time. Well so far as i concern as well we moslem, we never considered all the Book (the Bible) was corrupt, as a matter a fact, there might some that still genuine in the Book that you are holding.This is how I stand regarding on the Book(Al Kitab) perhaps others (the Moslem) as well.But first read this article which might will give you better viewing on how we stand
http://www.answering-christianity.co...eronomy4_2.htm and hopefully what you are asking in some other thread i suppose could answer your problem.Quran talking about bible that has been corruptedYusuf Ali - TranslationQuran 2:75 Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it. Quran 2:78 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Quran 2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. Does all the Bible are corrupted ?Yusuf Ali - Translation O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, -How to find out which one are corrupted and which one are not ?Pickthal - Translation Quran 5:48. And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture(Quran-my addition) with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture(Al Kitab) was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.Quran 5:15: O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. now hath come unto you light from Allah and plain Scripture,How to read this verse Yusuf Ali - TranslationQuran 5:68. Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith. Now if we just seeing that verse only on that PaleTurquoise color, that would make a confusion on us, but if we follow what other verse has been told then we should have a better picture of seeing that verse. And the strengthen of the verse was on the SandyBrown color.Wallaahu a'lam.
Ricky wrote:Originally Posted by Elisha Kai
I am still waiting for Ricky to tell me where the Qur'an clarifies that the New Testament is corrupted, and where it tells the people to reject it.
Seems like it's simply to say that Quran was never recognize New Testament. So far as I concern what was the Quran recognize are Gospel (Ingeel) that sent to Jesus(pbuh) the book of Moses which sent to Moses(pbuh), Zhaboor(Psalms) which sent to David(pbuh) and other prophets (pbu all of them) revelation (which is before Jesus(pbuh) come), and not to Mark, Matthew, moreover to Luke nor to Paul.
Elisha Kai replies: The Qur’an does recognise the four Gospels of the New Testament, I have already provided the proof for that. Historically seen the four Gospels were the ones used by the Christians up to Muhammad’s time and beyond; this is the only Injeel the Qur’an could refer to. Notice also that Christians used to call the Four Gospels, the Gospel in singular, and that the name Injeel is not Arabic by Syriac Greek, the Greek called the Gospel writings the ‘Injeel’ prior to the Islam.If you do not believe these four Gospels, you simply cannot be a Muslim Ricky, but then again if you do, you cannot be a Muslim either, as I have already pointed out.
Ricky wrote:
As a mater a fact Quran has told that whatever that was not come from God to His Messenger(prophet) that will make them go to hell. This is as far as I know and read.
Elisha Kai replies: The Qur’an tells you Ricky, that unless you believe in all the previous Scriptures, as they were read by the Jews and Christians within Muhammad’s life time, then you have left the path of Islam:
O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and his Messenger, and the SCRIPTURE WHICH HE SENT TO HIS MESSENGER, AND the SCRIPTURE WHICH HE SENT TO THOSE BEFORE (HIM). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His BOOKS, His messengers, and the day of judgement, hath gone fare astray (Sura 4:136)
I don’t know those that mean you are going to hell? No offence I hope, but I mean this is what you are implying.
Ricky wrote:
Quote:Surely if the Qur'an is the Word of God, and the Injeel is corrupted, this would be a simple matter.I am surprised, Ricky its taking you all this time. Well so far as i concern as well we moslem, we never considered all the Book (the Bible) was corrupt, as a matter a fact, there might some that still genuine in the Book that you are holding.
This is how I stand regarding on the Book(Al Kitab) perhaps others (the Moslem) as well.
Elisha Kai replies:That is not what the Qur’an commands you RickyThe Qur’an says:
Be courteous when you argue with People of the Book except with those among them who do evil. Say: “ We believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. Our God and your God is one”. (29:46)
As a Muslim you are to agree with me that the revelation I read is from God, according to the Qur’an you are not even permitted to attack the BibleYou are to say:
“ We believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. Our God and your God is one”. (29:46)
What you are doing on this forum is acting in complete disobedience toward your own Book and toward Allah
Ricky wrote:
But first read this article which might will give you better viewing on how we stand
http://www.answering-christianity.co...eronomy4_2.htm and hopefully what you are asking in some other thread i suppose could answer your problem.
Elisha Kai replies:I will happily reply to Answering-Christianity on a proper debate website, but not a forum, on this forum I would like to deal with you personally. And as to ‘your problem’, I cannot see that I have a problem, it is Islam that has a question to answer.
Ricky wrote:
Quran talking about bible that has been corruptedYusuf Ali - TranslationQuran 2:75 Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.
Elisha Kai replies:Who is corrupting what here? Obviously, it is referring to Jews, but which Jews? All Jews? No only a party of the Jews!And what exactly are they corrupting and when? The warning is given to Muslims (here men of faith) that they should not trust the Jews who willing pervert the ‘Word of Allah’ after they understood it. But is this a reference to the Bible being universally corrupted? Not necessarily!Look at verse 76:
Behold when they meet the men of faith, they say: We believe but when the meet each other in private, they say: Shall you tell them what Allah revealed has revealed to you, that they may engage you in argument about it before your Lord—do you not understand their aims? Do they not know that Allah knows what they conceal and what they reveal.
This passage has therefore nothing to do with Bible corruption, but the notorious games the Jews were playing with Muhammad, in other words, the issue is situational and local not universal. The passage is not saying that the Jews on a universal, large geographical scale corrupted the Torah. They were hiding passages and at least according to the author of the Qur’an perhaps fabricated passages to create arguments, but this would be a local incident not universal; furthermore, it is the author of the Qur’an who assumes that these passage were fabrication, which is only a one-sided opinion.Also I wonder about the word they have heard from Allah and which they know, is this the Torah, or is it possibly the Qur’an itself. I pose that question, since in verse 78 (if these are the same) they are illiterate and do not know Scripture.
Ricky wrote:
Quran 2:78 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Quran 2:79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
Elisha Kai replies:The context of this passage relates to the Jews only and not the Christians and the Injeel; however the issue is not relating Bible corruption However, even if the passage related to the Gospel two problems emerge: 1. The proposition of the text would completely contradict history and history would in fact debunk the proposition of this passage 2. The passage would contradict all other passages in the Qur?an that consider the integrity of the Gospel But then again the passage does not even indicate the corruption so often emphatically emphasised by Muslims; three points need to be considered: 1. The reference is not to a global corruption but a local 2. The corrupters are unlettered and do not even know Scripture (this is what you left out), they guess?obviously if they do not know Scripture, how can they corrupt it 3. They do not corrupt Scripture, they in fact fabricate Scripture; Scripture is still intact and existsThe possibility remains also, however, that these were genuine Jews who knew their book and did not resort to any fabrication, but were only depictured in this manner by the author of the Qur’an, because they exposed Muhammad as a false prophet with the Jewish Scripture.
Ricky wrote:
Does all the Bible are corrupted ?Yusuf Ali - Translation O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, -
Elisha Kai wrote:Again the reference is to the Jews not ChristiansAnd yet again the passage does not promote the possibility of Bible corruption, but situational events, in which the Jews hide stuff in their book and pass over some of it; yet this is not corruption!!!
Ricky wrote:
How to find out which one are corrupted and which one are not ?Pickthal - Translation Quran 5:48. And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture(Quran-my addition) with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture(Al Kitab) was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
Elisha Kai replies: Surely we need to judge Scripture, and in 5: 47, we Christians and Jews are told to judge among the books. Notice as verse 48 says here, that the Qur’an confirms, it does not reject the previous Scripture. If the previous Scriptures were corrupted, why does this passage not explicitly says so. Think of the problem here, how many Christians would be able to judge between the previous Scriptures and the Qur’an, since most of them would not even be able to read Arabic. What I mean is why does Allah not simply make it clear here that the previous Scriptures are corrupted, and what is corrupted? Thirdly, if this does imply that the Bible is corrupted, why are you according to Sura 29: 46 required to proclaim that the Jews and Christians truly possess the true Scripture, and even more a Scripture that even the Muslim needs to subject to.Furthermore, who are ‘their’ as to their desire, this is not referring to the Books, but in the context to those who do not follow the Scripture. Read the priory verses, these persons, not books which is why verse 48 says, that Allah wished he could make them one community.And again the reference to desires in verse 48, how do you define that? Could you please elaborate on that.
Ricky wrote:
Quran 5:15: O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. now hath come unto you light from Allah and plain Scripture,
Elisha Kai wrote:But again, the passage does not refer to corruption, but what the Jews used to hide in their Scriptures.
Ricky wrote:
How to read this verse Yusuf Ali - TranslationQuran 5:68. Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith. Now if we just seeing that verse only on that PaleTurquoise color, that would make a confusion on us, but if we follow what other verse has been told then we should have a better picture of seeing that verse. And the strengthen of the verse was on the SandyBrown color.
Elisha Kai wrote: Then you admit that there is a confusion. The problem with your argument here, is that the phrase ‘revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord’ does not change the priory fact, that the people of the Book have nothing to stand upon unless they stand fast by the Law, the Gospel and the revelation. Think about, if the Torah and Injeel were corrupt, why does the passage not simply say so? That is a confusion, the Qur’an is not clear, which suggests that Allah or either does not know or accepts all these Scripture.
"Ricky W")
