The Mystery of Abraham's Works that do and don't Justify

[Michiah-Imla]

Yes, we know. Everyone other than you is a heretic.

Not at all.

Everyone spewing unbiblical garbage is a heretic Dan.

 

[mailmandan]

When did I tell you to observe holy days on a calendar and to get circumcised Dan?

“Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.” (Galatians 4:10)

“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2)

Learn how to rightly divide the word Dan.

Bottom line. You preach a "different" gospel. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

 

[mailmandan]

Not at all.

Everyone spewing unbiblical garbage is a heretic Dan.

You spew unbiblical garbage along with a perverted gospel.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

You preach a "different" gospel.

Different from your false gospel, yes.

I preach the uncorrupted biblical gospel!

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, rlet him be accursed.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

You spew unbiblical garbage along with a perverted gospel.

After all the scriptures I quoted confirming my sayings?

 

[mailmandan]

After all the scriptures I quoted confirming my sayings?

Your misinterpretation of those scriptures confirmed nothing, except your false gospel.

 

[mailmandan]

Different from your false gospel, yes.

I preach the uncorrupted biblical gospel!

You preach a false gospel. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Your misinterpretation of those scriptures

What are you talking about Dan?

Show me with the Bible how I “misinterpreted” any scripture?

Yet you are the one ADDING words and changing definitions in the sacred text with your false teachers reference books!

 

[mailmandan]

What are you talking about Dan?

Show me with the Bible how I “misinterpreted” any scripture?

Yet you are the one ADDING words and changing definitions in the sacred text with your false teachers reference books!

I added and changed nothing and I already showed you multiple times how you misinterpreted scripture, but the truth just continues to go right over your head. You label everyone who doesn't agree with your false doctrine a false teacher. Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I added and changed nothing and I already showed you multiple times how you misinterpreted scripture, but the truth just continues to go right over your head. You label everyone who doesn't agree with your false dictrine a false teacher. Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.

I will never repent of defending the truth of the Bible.

 

[mailmandan]

I will never repent of defending the truth of the Bible.

You are only fooling yourself. Good day sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

...But not as a reward of debt owed. Paul is very clear about this.

Works only save in the sense that they are the evidence of faith in God's forgiveness that Jesus will be using to divide the sheep from the goats.

The truth is Ferris, we can and do owe a debt, however it is impossible for humans to pay that debt. God made provision for that debt to be paid however, He sent His son as the corresponding ransom which paid that debt for us.

Now as far as works go, they are necessary for salvation, based on your capability sir. Mat 25:14-30

You do understand that your posting here constitutes as work correct? So what motivates you to take the time and effort to respond to others?

 

[Robert Gwin]

And what is that WILL< Robert?

Its that you BELIEVE IN JESUS.

That's GOD's WILL for every person.

If you do that, God will accept your faith and give you the new birth, and you become a Son of God......a new creation in Christ.

I agree, not one person who does not believe in Jesus will receive salvation, but like you seen in the verse that I posted, that not everyone who believes in Jesus will be saved. Those believed so much in him they did amazing things in his name, but like Jesus stated, they failed to do God's will. In other words Be, serving God is not Burger King, you cannot have it your way. God outlines the way He desires to be worshipped in His word, and those who choose to worship Him in their own way are on the broad road to destruction. One must accept Jehovah's requirements and do their best to practice them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The truth is Ferris, we can and do owe a debt, however it is impossible for humans to pay that debt. God made provision for that debt to be paid however, He sent His son as the corresponding ransom which paid that debt for us.

And so that debt is gone, paid in full. Amen, amen, and amen.

Working to pay a debt you no longer have is...well...being ignorant of God's grace.

Now as far as works go, they are necessary for salvation, based on your capability sir. Mat 25:14-30

Yes, but not in order to make you righteous, but to show that you have received God's free gift of righteousness through faith in the work of Christ.

You do understand that your posting here constitutes as work correct?

Yes, but it is not work that somehow makes me righteous. Being made righteous in God's sight, and therefore, eligible to enter the kingdom, happens entirely by receiving God's free gift of forgiveness through faith in the blood of Christ. The only way to be righteous is to have your unrighteousness removed through the forgiveness of God and replaced with His righteousness.

And furthermore, the 'work' I and everyone else does here in no way shape or form even compares to the work that actually matters - the 'work' of walking by the Spirit according to the fruit of the Spirit. The sacrifice of ones service will never compare to or replace the obedience of the fruit of the Spirit. Obedience is better than sacrifice. In fact, until we are obedient, the sacrifice of our service is not accepted by God. Few in the church understand this profound truth.

So what motivates you to take the time and effort to respond to others?

This:

"16From Him the whole body, fitted and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love through the work of each individual part." Ephesians 4:16​

I feel an obligation to fellowship with the body to aid in the building up of each other up into what God has predetermined that we will be built up into. And maybe, just maybe, there'll be a reward for me on the other side for whatever it is I can contribute to that end. But one thing's for sure, any work I do in no way shape or form makes me righteous in God's sight. None whatsoever. The righteousness I have is entirely a free gift of God's grace. Entirely and completely.

 

[robert derrick]

I'm not lying. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and authentic faith is evidenced works. (James 2:14-24) Simple.

Now you can't even acknowledge what you were lying about, in stating the teaching falsely, so as to not to have to consider it honestly.

I would dismiss works salvationism out of hand, which is why I would never teach it, nor even speak of it. You are the only one who has spoken of it. You OSAS people do that all the time with anything you don't already agree with. You don't state it as written and then try to correct it honestly, but you state it outrageously, so that no Christian with a sound mind would even consider it.

This is why I no longer bother trying to correct you.

You people don't even have enough honor and credibility to admit you change what others are saying, that you may dismiss it. Which of course is not surprising, since you do the same with what God says also, and lie about His words too.

I have learned from you people why the fearful and unbelieving are listed first before all the other sins: you are afraid of even acknowledging what is being said, lest it may indeed be true. You are so afraid of anything correcting you, that you won't even allow yourself to read it correctly.

You forbid yourself to even comprehend what is being taught, if it gets anywhere close to correcting you.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Your willful blindness refuses to even comprehend anything else, because you are afraid to, lest you actually be corrected in any manner, and your whole row of OSAS dominoes begin to tumble upon one another.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

 

[robert derrick]

But do they MAKE you righteous?

I have answered you already, and I will do so only once more to you.

Yes, we from James 2:24 are justified by works of faith, which is confirmed by Romans 5:19, that we are made righteous by obedience to the faith of the Son, who is that One that is made Justifier by obedience to the Father.

Even as Christ was made Justifier of the ungodly, by obedience to the Father, so the ungodly are justified and made righteous by obedience to the Son.

Do you receive the imputation of God's righteousness by doing works of faith?

Show me where I say that. Otherwise it is only a rhetorical question.

Now, I must have a straight answer from you: Are we justified by works of faith, or by faith only.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Now, I must have a straight answer from you: Are we justified by works of faith, or by faith only.

Yes, and yes.
We are made righteous (justified) by faith all by itself apart from works (Romans 4:6).
We are shown to be righteous (justified) by the works that faith produces (James 2:18, James 2:24).

Both, justification by faith without works (Paul's argument), and justification by works of faith (James' argument) are in the Bible and they are two distinct arguments. They are not one and the same argument as so many think they are. To try to interpret them as one and the same argument will either 1) produce the very works gospel Paul warns us about, or 2) produce the 'dead faith' gospel James warns us about. But to understand them as the two distinct arguments they are produces the true gospel of salvation: Faith all by itself makes you righteous. Works show you to have that righteousness.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes, and yes.
We are made righteous (justified) by faith all by itself apart from works (Romans 4:6).
We are shown to be righteous (justified) by the works that faith produces (James 2:18, James 2:24).

Both, justification by faith without works (Paul's argument), and justification by works of faith (James' argument) are in the Bible and they are two distinct arguments. They are not one and the same argument as so many think they are. To try to interpret them as one and the same argument will either 1) produce the very works gospel Paul warns us about, or 2) produce the 'dead faith' gospel James warns us about. But to understand them as the two distinct arguments they are produces the true gospel of salvation: Faith all by itself makes you righteous. Works show you to have that righteousness.

Thanks for a straight answer, and it is an interesting argument I had not heard before.

The first problem is that faith all by itself apart from works is faith alone, which is dead. To say otherwise is to deny plain Scripture.

Also, by making two different arguments for justification, you are making two different kinds of justifications by Christ, which Scripture does not do: one kind of justification by faith alone, and another kind of justification by works of faith. This is what OSAS does by saying the justification of salvation is by faith alone apart from works, and the justification of discipleship is by works of faith only.

Knowing that is not your intent, then you are at least trying to argue for being justified by faith alone, and then more fully or perfectly justified by works of faith.

Either the way, no man is fully justified and saved by faith alone (which is dead), but also with works of faith, which you seem to be trying to teach.

And so, it is an interesting argument between us, but so long as there is no difference in result, then it's not meaningful to me: We both are doing the works of faith, knowing that without works no man is justified by Christ.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You speak of a kind of progressive justification, like a progressive sanctification, from faith alone to works of faith, while I speak of one perfect justification that is by works of faith, which cannot be without faith vs by works of the law, that can be without faith.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes, and yes.
We are made righteous (justified) by faith all by itself apart from works (Romans 4:6).
We are shown to be righteous (justified) by the works that faith produces (James 2:18, James 2:24).

This is another interesting argument about made righteous and showing to be righteous, or being righteous, that also is not meaningful, so long as the results of being made righteous, being righteous, and justified in salvation are fulfilled by works of faith.

However, you are trying to make a distinction between wrong things: the distinction in Scripture is between being imputed righteousness and being made righteous, not between being made righteous and being righteous. No man can be made righteous without being righteous, which is by obedience to the faith and doing righteously:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Even as disobedience makes sinners, so does obedience makes righteous. All men, like Adam, are made sinners by disobeying God, and all men, through Jesus, are made righteous by obeying God.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

No man is being righteous without doing righteousness. No man is being righteous while doing unrighteousness.

That is the dysfunctional utopia of OSAS dead faith alone salvation and justification.

But, so long as we are doing righteousness by the faith of Jesus, we are born sons of God, saved and justified by Jesus' works of faith in and through us:

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

[mailmandan]

Now you can't even acknowledge what you were lying about, in stating the teaching falsely, so as to not to have to consider it honestly.

I wasn't lying and I don't appreciate your slander.

I would dismiss works salvationism out of hand, which is why I would never teach it, nor even speak of it. You are the only one who has spoken of it. You OSAS people do that all the time with anything you don't already agree with. You don't state it as written and then try to correct it honestly, but you state it outrageously, so that no Christian with a sound mind would even consider it.

You have repeatedly stated that works of faith precede salvation. Us OSAS people? Your hatred for OSAS has turned you into a very hateful, bitter person.

This is why I no longer bother trying to correct you.

So far I have seen no legitimate correction from you. Only hate filled rants attacking OSAS.

You people don't even have enough honor and credibility to admit you change what others are saying, that you may dismiss it. Which of course is not surprising, since you do the same with what God says also, and lie about His words too.

What others are saying is clear to me, even though they remain in denial.

I have learned from you people why the fearful and unbelieving are listed first before all the other sins: you are afraid of even acknowledging what is being said, lest it may indeed be true. You are so afraid of anything correcting you, that you won't even allow yourself to read it correctly.

You forbid yourself to even comprehend what is being taught, if it gets anywhere close to correcting you.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Your willful blindness refuses to even comprehend anything else, because you are afraid to, lest you actually be corrected in any manner, and your whole row of OSAS dominoes begin to tumble upon one another.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

So basically you just condemned all OSAS believers? Who appointed you as judge? I used to really enjoy fellowship in years past on these various Christian forum sites, but more recently, these sites are becoming more and more hijacked by trolls, agitators, pseudo Christians and wolves in sheep's clothing. Not much love, edification or fellowship anymore. Instead of promoting Christ, too many people on these sites are only interested in exploiting Christ in order to promote themselves. Very sad...