The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Tong2020]

Yes. So? Does that say that one could not give his life for another? Do you know what Jesus teach concerning that?

Our focus is on the moral principle of punishment. According to the passage in Deuteronomy it is immoral to punish a man's son for the crimes of his father and the principle applies whether the son volunteers or not.

Do we have an issue about that? I am not aware of that when you asked the questions. For we are not discussing about morality, but about the cross.

Now, about the passage in Deuteronomy, I don’t think that is about morality. It is about the law that God gave to Israel through Moses.

Salvation is of God, by God, by grace, through faith in God and in Him whom He sent, the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, according to the counsel of His will and of course, His nature.

We are on the same page here. And I am aware of the argument that Jesus' vicarious atonement is an act of grace on his part. And we are saved by that particular act of grace on the basis of our faith in that act. I understand that. But I don't think this idea comes from the New Testament, but we inherited this idea from an earlier time in Church history. In order to track this down, we need to remind ourselves whether salvation is predicated on the Father's act of grace or the Son's act of grace?

Well that argument you say there is not coming from me.

It is God who justifies, and that, according to the counsel of His will. It is grace.

If it is grace, then how is it satisfaction?

What do you mean to ask?

May I ask, when scriptures says “Christ died for us”, what is your understanding of that?

Vicarious atonement takes place when someone dies "instead of" someone else. This is not what the New Testament means by Christ died FOR us. Rather, the statement indicates that Christ died on our behalf.

I don’t know why you always inject vicarious atonement when I haven’t even mentioned that even once.

So, what is your understanding when scriptures says “Christ died for us”?

What do you mean to say that Christ died on our behalf?

And when scriptures says “Christ died for our sins”, what is your understanding of that?

The phrase "for our sins" is shorthand for the more complete idea that God sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Does scriptures teach that or is it your opinion? If it is not opinion, can you point me to the scriptures?

Propitiation is matter of appeasement, not of justice.

That's right, which is why the cross is a matter of appeasement, not of justice. Jesus wasn't satisfying justice at the cross, he was reconciling the world to God at the cross.

Not that propitiation is a matter of appeasement and not justice that such conclusion could be made concerning the cross.

As I said, Christ’s death accomplished a lot of things, and propitiation is only one of them. And as I already mentioned in my previous post, among others, we read in scriptures that speaks of Christ as have offered a sacrifice for sins, which is in reference to the Law.

Tong
R4306

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Not exactly. They are closely related.

Agreed. A propitiation is the thing being offered; while atonement is the condition or status of the final result. Jesus offered his life as a propitiation for our sins -- the offering. The father promises to accept the offering provided that Jesus' followers have the proper inwardness -- contrition, penitence, honesty, faith, hope, love and etc. Another way to say this is, "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved . . ."

In other words, atonement takes place when both sides agree to the terms of reconciliation.

<<<Jesus offered his life as a propitiation for our sins -- the offering.>>>

To whom did Jesus offered his life as a propitiation - appeasement?

<<<The father promises to accept the offering provided that Jesus' followers have the proper inwardness -- contrition, penitence, honesty, faith, hope, love and etc.>>>

Can you cite scriptures where the Father made such promise and with those conditions?

“accept the offering” - offering by whom? what is the offering?

May I ask, when scriptures says of Jesus as “the propitiation for our sins”?

The idea of propitiation comes from the worship of God (or the gods), whereby we ask the question, "what must we do to gain God's favor? What must we do to establish friendly relations such that he will bless us and favor us?" The New Testament understands propitiation as the means to reconciliation with God, because the sins of man are a cause of enmity between God and man. For this cause, Jesus Christ volunteered to become a demonstration of God's righteousness. Romans 3:6 Jesus points out that the cross will assuage God's anger in similitude to when Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness. John 3:14. Just as all those who looked at the bronze serpent lived; all those who look at the cross will live.

In other words, the terms of reconciliation are this. One must look at the cross and agree, 1) I am a sinner, 2) I deserve what this cross implies, 3) because of my sins, this innocent person had to die.

<<<The New Testament understands propitiation…>>>

What do you mean by that?

How does your post answer the question how Jesus is “the propitiation for our sins”?

It is God who justifies. And He justifies freely by His grace. One is justified by faith not by “substitution” (whatever you meant that”.)

If I understand Calvinist teaching correctly, the penal theory of the atonement is the basis of the necessity for a limited atonement. Obviously, if Christ suffered the penalty for all of mankind's sins, and since the atonement definitely secures the salvation of those for whom Christ died, then this leads to universal salvation for all mankind, which is contrary to scripture. Therefore the atonement is limited.

In my view, the atonement remains as an offer for all mankind. The question at issue is whether the death of Jesus on the cross is limited to the elect. The answer to that question centers on the meaning and intent of the cross. The NT understands the cross in terms of an offer of reconciliation. And the offer of reconciliation is clearly made to all mankind.

Therefore I conclude that cross was not Christ being punished instead of mankind, but rather, the cross is Christ's offer of reconciliation on our behalf and in order for any particular individual to achieve reconciliation, one must confess Jesus Christ and believe in him.

<<<If I understand Calvinist teaching correctly, the penal theory of the atonement is the basis of the necessity for a limited atonement.>>>

Well, you don’t need to understand Calvinist teaching. I am not interested nor I made any reference to what they teach.

<<<In my view, the atonement remains as an offer for all mankind.>>>

An offer FOR all mankind? Can you please elaborate on that?

<<<The question at issue is whether the death of Jesus on the cross is limited to the elect. The answer to that question centers on the meaning and intent of the cross.>>>

I agree. That is why, we should be looking at what Christ had accomplished at the cross.

Tong
R4307

 

[brightfame52]

What is truth?

Read the thread

 

[brightfame52]

@brightfame52

Is John 1:29 not part of the truth?

Of course it is, I love that verse.

 

[brightfame52]

He died for our sins according to scripture !

1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

The scriptures that National Israel was instrumental by God to produce , also had a priesthood that typified an important aspect of the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

Christ for those He died, was their High Priest and theirs exclusivley, and as such, He was to offer sacrifice for the sins of the people Heb 2:16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The People are the seed of Abraham Vs 16, and not for every individual in the world, for such concept deviates from the typology of Christ's priesthood sacrifice !

Aarons priesthood was strictly for the Children of Israel, God's Chosen, for example Ex 28:29

And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the Lord continually.

Lev 9:1-7

And it came to pass on the eighth day, that Moses called Aaron and his sons, and the elders of Israel;

2 And he said unto Aaron, Take thee a young calf for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering, without blemish, and offer them before the Lord.

3 And unto the children of Israel thou shalt speak, saying, Take ye a kid of the goats for a sin offering; and a calf and a lamb, both of the first year, without blemish, for a burnt offering;

4 Also a bullock and a ram for peace offerings, to sacrifice before the Lord; and a meat offering mingled with oil: for to day the Lord will appear unto you.

5 And they brought that which Moses commanded before the tabernacle of the congregation: and all the congregation drew near and stood before the Lord.

6 And Moses said, This is the thing which the Lord commanded that ye should do: and the glory of the Lord shall appear unto you.

7 And Moses said unto Aaron, Go unto the altar, and offer thy sin offering, and thy burnt offering, and make an atonement for thyself, and for the people: and offer the offering of the people, and make an atonement for them; as the Lord commanded.

Lev 16:21-22

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Now whose sins and iniquities were bare away into the wilderness ? It was exclusively the Children of Israel, a people separated from all other peoples ! And that word bear is the hebrew word nasa' which means:

I.to lift, bear up, carry, take
A.
(Qal)
i.
to lift, lift up

ii.
to bear, carry, support, sustain, endure

iii.
to take, take away, carry off, forgive


B.
(Niphal)
i.
to be lifted up, be exalted

ii.
to lift oneself up, rise up

iii.
to be borne, be carried

iv.
to be taken away, be carried off, be swept away
Click to expand...

And it corresponds to the word taketh away here Jn 1:29

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

The words taketh away is the greek word airō and means:

I.
to raise up, elevate, lift up
A.
to raise from the ground, take up: stones

B.
to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand

C.
to draw up: a fish


II.
to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

III.
to bear away what has been raised, carry off
A.
to move from its place

B.
to take off or away what is attached to anything

C.
to remove

D.
to carry off, carry away with one

E.
to appropriate what is taken

F.
to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force

G.
to take and apply to any use

H.
to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence

I.
cause to cease
Click to expand...

Its the same result following the Sacrifice, so the world of Jn 1:29 according to typology would be the World of the Children of Israel, God's Elect !

People are careless in what one of the biblical definitions of world means, its the greek word kosmos and does carry the meaning of :

VIII. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

That means the Children of Israel collectively equates to a World !

Now a good way of scripturally understanding exactly whose sins Christ died for, Look at the High Priest Office of Christ, its Type in Aaron and who it was that Aaron was High Priest for Heb 2:16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.820

 

[Tong2020]

He died for our sins according to scripture !

Yes Christ Jesus did. Scriptures even says that He died for us.

Tong
R4311

 

[BarneyFife]

@brightfame52

Atonement is about more than propitiation. It is also about cleansing.

What cleanses or restores the universe from the sins of the wicked that pollute the world and its inhabitants?

Grace does. And where does grace come from? The blood of Jesus.

Some recompense has to be made for sins that should never have been allowed to occur.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes Christ Jesus did. Scriptures even says that He died for us.

Tong
R4311

whose us ?

 

[Tong2020]

whose us ?

Some say it’s for all human beings, others say it’s only for a chosen people.

For me, Christ’s death benefited the whole world. And in that sense, He died for all. However, as pertain to eternal benefit, such is salvation unto eternal life, it is only for those whom the Father have given to Christ Jesus, and not the whole of humanity.

Tong
R4313

 

[brightfame52]

Who are the every man of Heb 2:9 ?

Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Now the teachers of error would feigningly tell us that this verse means all individuals, world wide without exception of all mankind, but thats not what the text states or means contextually. Now first of all the word man is not in the original:823

τὸν δὲ βραχύ τι παρ᾽ ἀγγέλους ἠλαττωμένον βλέπομεν Ἰησοῦν διὰ τὸ πάθημα τοῦ θανάτου δόξῃ καὶ τιμῇ ἐστεφανωμένον ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου

The word man was added by the translators, so it really states that He tasted death for pas which may mean:

I.
individually
A.
each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything


II.
collectively
A.
some of all types

Its meaning can be that of all of a collective type or the whole of them. As you can see it can even mean some !

When we condsider the word collectively we mean :

a collective body; aggregate. of or characteristic of a group of individuals taken together:

Say for instance all the Sheep of Christ collectively, after all later in the same letter it is written that Christ, after dying or tasting death, that this happened Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

He rose from the tasting of death Heb 2:9, the Great Shepherd of the Sheep !

So therefore it is contextually appropriate to understand the pas of Heb 2:9 as Christ's Sheep, He tested Death for every one of His Sheep ! Jn 10:11-16

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life[Tasted death] for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life[tasted death] for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold[Collection of Sheep], and one shepherd.
Click to expand...

I submit that the very man in Heb 2:9 means all or everyone of His Sheep !

 

[brightfame52]

Some say it’s for all human beings, others say it’s only for a chosen people.

For me, Christ’s death benefited the whole world. And in that sense, He died for all. However, as pertain to eternal benefit, such is salvation unto eternal life, it is only for those whom the Father have given to Christ Jesus, and not the whole of humanity.

Tong
R4313

I disagree with you in that the death of Christ didn't benefit the whole world, and so He did not in any way die for the non elect. To say that Christs death benefited the non elect, those who shall perish, is to say the death of Christ had some non redemptive properties about it, which cant be substantiated by scripture.

 

[Tong2020]

I disagree with you in that the death of Christ didn't benefit the whole world, and so He did not in any way die for the non elect. To say that Christs death benefited the non elect, those who shall perish, is to say the death of Christ had some non redemptive properties about it, which cant be substantiated by scripture.

I maintain that Christ’s death benefited the whole world. And that however, as pertain to eternal benefit, such is salvation unto eternal life, it is only for those whom the Father have given to Christ Jesus, and not the whole of humanity.

<<<To say that Christs death benefited the non elect, those who shall perish, is to say the death of Christ had some non redemptive properties about it, which cant be substantiated by scripture.>>>

To say that Christ’s death benefited the non elect is not to say that it had some non redemptive properties. Nobody is saying that it had some of that. But it is to say that Christ’s death had some non eternal salvific effect or accomplishment. In both nonetheless, eternal and non eternal, Christ’s death is salvific. This is why scriptures says of Jesus Christ, that He is the “Savior of all men” (Sōtēr pantōn anthrōpōn).

Tong
R4320

 

[brightfame52]

tong

But it is to say that Christ’s death had some non eternal salvific effect or accomplishment.

Can you show that from scripture ? I dont see it

 

[brightfame52]

tong

This is why scriptures says of Jesus Christ, that He is the “Savior of all men”

Thats Salvation, which was clarified by stating, especially them that believe.

If you mean some other way, then its not a benefit of the death of Christ, but its Gods common providence of all creatures apart from the death of Christ. You appear to me to be holding on to leaven as to say, Jesus Christ in some sense died for the non elect, which I believe is mistake not suppoted by scripture.

 

[Tong2020]

tong

But it is to say that Christ’s death had some non eternal salvific effect or accomplishment.

Can you show that from scripture ? I dont see it

I already pointed you to one. Here’s the reference scriptures to that.

1 Tim.4:6 If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. 7 But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach.

Here’s another.

John 11:49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.”

Tong
R4338

 

[brightfame52]

Who are the every man of Heb 2:9 ? 2

Let us continue to look at this verse Heb 2:9 to determine who the all or every are, due to the context, we have looked at it to mean every sheep of His because of Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Now since He was brought from the dead [after tasting death Heb 2:9] as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep, then its quite reasonable to conclude that is whom He tasted death for in Heb 2:9 which is collaborated from other scripture Jn 10:11,15 !

But lets again examine the context of the Book of Hebrews when it reads thusly Heb 9:28

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The phrase " offered to bear the sins of many" is equivalent to tasting death Heb 2:9, so since here in Heb 9:28 the tasting of death is for the many, hence its quite reasonable to conclude that the every man in Heb 2:9 are the Many, or simply He tasted death for all of the many !

The many here in Heb 9:28 is actually the many ' To Pollon "

οὕτως ὁ Χριστός ἅπαξ προσενεχθεὶς εἰς τὸ πολλῶν ἀνενεγκεῖν ἁμαρτίας ἐκ δευτέρου χωρὶς ἁμαρτίας ὀφθήσεται τοῖς αὐτὸν ἀπεκδεχομένοις εἰς σωτηρίαν

The definite article is present to specifiy a definite group that constitutes the many, which opposes all without exception. The word does however denote a great number that do constitute the many, such as Rev 7:9

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The same no doubt as those of Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

So the every man in Heb 2:9 is simply all or everone of the Many, for once again the word pas means most definitely :

II.collectively
A.
some of all types

So all the many out of all types of kindred, tongue and people and nations ! Yet that does not mean everyone without exception !

 

[Tong2020]

tong

This is why scriptures says of Jesus Christ, that He is the “Savior of all men”

Thats Salvation, which was clarified by stating, especially them that believe.

If you mean some other way, then its not a benefit of the death of Christ, but its Gods common providence of all creatures apart from the death of Christ. You appear to me to be holding on to leaven as to say, Jesus Christ in some sense died for the non elect, which I believe is mistake not suppoted by scripture.

That sure is salvation. Yet while Paul said “Savior of all men”, not all men are saved unto eternal life. How then is He the Savior of all men?

We must not forget that all men have sinned against God. Paul said at that time even, that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Jews and Gentiles alike, that is, all men. It was no different since the beginning, from Adam to Noah. God forebear the sins committed from Adam until Noah. But God poured out His judgement upon all men in the generation of Noah. Scriptures described it this way:

Gen.6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

As we can see, this do came to God. And we see that when it comes, that is what He will do, destroy and kill all men, even all things that have the breath of life in them. And if not for His grace upon Noah and seven of his family, it would had been the end of mankind. For all are guilty of sin, all deserving of death, even Noah. He could very well have done that generations after generations from the time of Noah’s flood, for generations after generation, it has always been that way, that the whole world is filled with the wickedness of man, all men that is. For as Paul put it, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; that no one is righteous; no one seek God. But God did not do that. He forebear the sins of all men, until the appointed time of Jesus Christ. For in the plan of God, God sent Christ to the world, not for judgement and demonstration of His wrath, but this time, for salvation and to demonstrate His love and righteousness. He gave His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, as a propitiation for the whole world, so that He would not pour out His judgement; His wrath as He did in the days of Noah, and destroy all men altogether. Not that God forgave all the sins of all men, but that, He did not bring judgement upon all men, on behalf of Jesus Christ, who gave His life, to make propitiation for the sins of the people of Israel and also for the whole world. Jesus Christ died for all men in that sense, but not as salvation unto eternal life, but from being destroyed and killed as it were in the flood at Noah’s time.

<<<Thats Salvation, which was clarified by stating, especially them that believe.>>>

Yes, it says “the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” It says of all men. The Greek is clear, “panton anthropon” and refers to all men.

The “especially” does not in any way make “panton anthropon” to change to mean differently than referring to all men. It was to distinguish an specific group from the general “all men”, and implies His being their Savior to be somehow different from the rest.

Tong
R4342

 

[brightfame52]

That sure is salvation. Yet while Paul said “Savior of all men”, not all men are saved unto eternal life. How then is He the Savior of all men?

We must not forget that all men have sinned against God. Paul said at that time even, that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Jews and Gentiles alike, that is, all men. It was no different since the beginning, from Adam to Noah. God forebear the sins committed from Adam until Noah. But God poured out His judgement upon all men in the generation of Noah. Scriptures described it this way:

Gen.6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

As we can see, this do came to God. And we see that when it comes, that is what He will do, destroy and kill all men, even all things that have the breath of life in them. And if not for His grace upon Noah and seven of his family, it would had been the end of mankind. For all are guilty of sin, all deserving of death, even Noah. He could very well have done that generations after generations from the time of Noah’s flood, for generations after generation, it has always been that way, that the whole world is filled with the wickedness of man, all men that is. For as Paul put it, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; that no one is righteous; no one seek God. But God did not do that. He forebear the sins of all men, until the appointed time of Jesus Christ. For in the plan of God, God sent Christ to the world, not for judgement and demonstration of His wrath, but this time, for salvation and to demonstrate His love and righteousness. He gave His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, as a propitiation for the whole world, so that He would not pour out His judgement; His wrath as He did in the days of Noah, and destroy all men altogether. Not that God forgave all the sins of all men, but that, He did not bring judgement upon all men, on behalf of Jesus Christ, who gave His life, to make propitiation for the sins of the people of Israel and also for the whole world. Jesus Christ died for all men in that sense, but not as salvation unto eternal life, but from being destroyed and killed as it were in the flood at Noah’s time.

<<<Thats Salvation, which was clarified by stating, especially them that believe.>>>

Yes, it says “the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” It says of all men. The Greek is clear, “panton anthropon” and refers to all men.

The “especially” does not in any way make “panton anthropon” to change to mean differently than referring to all men. It was to distinguish an specific group from the general “all men”, and implies His being their Savior to be somehow different from the rest.

Tong
R4342

You have lost me friend.

 

[brightfame52]

He is the Saviour of the Body ! 1

Eph 5:23

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

The Body here is the Church, as He is the Saviour of His Church, He is the Saviour of His Body, of which He is also the Head of ! Now as Head of Body, after having been delivered to death because of its sins, it is stated here this Eph 1:20

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he[God] raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,825

And Vs 19 says that this [raising from the dead] was done according to working of His Mighty Power, which Power was wrought in Christ

Christ who is the Head Eph 4:15

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ

Eph 5:23

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. See Matt 1:21

 

[CadyandZoe]

<<<Punishment is any pain, suffering, or loss inflicted on a person because of a crime or offence. >>>

Yes. Punishment is a penalty inflicted on an offender. It may be in various forms which are a disadvantage, suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution.

The punishment for sin is death. And “death” here, I do not refer to what the world define it to mean. I refer to it as to what the scriptures says it is. That is another deep and important subject to talk about, as I see it as would have the Christian appreciate what Jesus Christ had to suffer for the children of God.

<<<Ransom, on the other hand, is the money or price paid for the redemption of a prisoner, or for goods captured by an enemy.>>>

Yes. Ransom is a payment of a price to free someone from captivity or from punishment. It is a way for setting free someone or something.

Scriptures tells us that Christ gave His life a ransom for many (Mk.10:45). Note, for many, not for all of humanity. A ransom for what? In Heb.19:15 for one, it tells us, concerning those called (note: not all of humanity), that ransom payment was for the transgressions under the first covenant. To set them free from what then? From the penalty of sin. Not only for that, but also from guilt. And the ransom payment is? Death.

<<<Punishment is an act of justice;>>>

Yes. But also could be an act of vengeance, of retribution, of wrath.

<<<ransom is an act of mercy.>>>

It may and may be not. But for sure, Ransom is an act of setting free from a bad position to a good one. And such was of Christ’s death. It is an act of love and also of mercy.

Tong
R4302

With regard to Mark 10:45, I think you may be confusing effect with purpose. Jesus' death on the cross was the basis of our reconciliation, but not all men wish to be reconciled to God on that basis. Thus, the effect of his death was a ransom for many, but the purpose of the cross was to offer his hand to all of mankind, making reconciliation available to anyone who wanted it, i.e. for the whole world.

BTW I affirm unconditional election. Nonetheless, the narrative picture of evangelistic efforts found in the New Testament argue against a targeted approach to evangelism. While we both agree with Paul that those who are called will receive the promise, the actual call goes out to the entire world. Jesus pictured this as a farmer broadcasting seed onto a field. The act of broadcasting is a much different process than placing individual seeds into a planting bed, carefully placing one seed at a time into the soil. The offer of reconciliation is broadcast throughout the world.

But I want to reiterate my point earlier. The doctrine of Penal substitution can not be defended. We must never confuse justice with mercy; punishment with ransom. The two are entirely different concepts.