The only source of life and the fallacy of a 'dead' human spirit being 'quickened from death'

[rwb]

Again, I believe you know this - but according to your choice of words, once again:

You left out the key words: IN CHRIST

When we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit we are in Christ, and He in us.

Matthew 12:18 (KJV) Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Acts 2:17 (KJV) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

John 15:4 (KJV) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

No seed of created human beings has ever ascended to heaven - nor could we or can they - only Christ has ascended to heaven - from whence He had descended. So again you left out the key words: IN CHRIST

Paul tells us when are absent from the body we are present with the Lord in heaven, that where He is we shall be also. We do not ascend to heaven as human beings, rather we ascend to heaven a spiritual body, living souls without human form through Christ's Holy Spirit in us.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:20-24 (KJV) According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

John 12:26 (KJV) If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

John 14:2-4 (KJV) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

The created human beings - Adam and Eve - did not eternally possess eternal life in themselves

I agree, man may only possess eternal spiritual life when they are indwelt with the life giving Spirit of Christ in us. We have assurance this eternal spiritual life will never end, so when our mortal body dies, as spiritual body we ascend to heaven living souls where we wait for the Kingdom of God in heaven to be complete. I believe A&E were covered by the blood of Christ, via promise, the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. When they disobeyed God their eyes were opened, a spiritual picture of knowing they had sin against God. They tried to hide their nakedness without God because guilt made them realize what it meant to be naked before Him. Through grace God made them coats of skins, and clothed them, symbolizing righteousness through the blood of the Lamb of God.

Genesis 3:7 (KJV) And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Genesis 3:21 (KJV) Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Their life after receiving mercy from God's demonstrates IMO forgiveness of their sin. One son Abel proved to be righteous before God, which is evidence A&E has instructed them in the ways of God. The other son Cain demonstrates that from the fall through disobedience, sin and death through sin are still the consequence for all mankind, even though God forgives sin.

When God gave A&E another son to replace the one Cain killed called Seth. And in the days of Seth man began to call upon the name of the Lord. Certainly this is the result of A&E raising them up in the way they should go, teaching them to be righteous and obedient to God.

Genesis 4:25 (KJV) And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Genesis 4:26 (KJV) And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

IMO this is how we can know with certainty that A&E believed in God and through promise of the One Who would come to crush the serpent they possessed eternal life according to promise, and in death waited for Him to come to redeem them by His Spirit. They believed God and it was accounted unto them as righteousness.

Life never becomes something we ourselves possess in ourselves

Man, never possesses eternal life in ourselves. Man is created with body + the breath of life (spirit) and became a living soul. Through the breath of life (natural spirit) that every living breathing creature upon this earth possesses, man became living soul with physical body through natural birth (spirit). We must make a distinction between that which is of mankind naturally through physical birth, and that which comes to man supernaturally through the Spirit of Christ through supernatural birth from above. Only that spirit in mankind that possesses the Holy Spirit of Christ has eternal life. All who remain living souls with body and natural spirit are destined to die.

 

[rwb]

Before we were born of the Spirit we were without the eternal spiritual life OF CHRIST that God gives to us IN CHRIST - who alone possesses that life IN HIMSELF (John 5:26; 1 John 5:11).

Now I repeating myself, because when we must be born again through the Spirit of Christ in us. And when we are born again we possess eternal life through Christ's Spirit, therefore when we have His Spirit we are in Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

When we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit we are in Christ, and He in us.

Matthew 12:18 (KJV) Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Acts 2:17 (KJV) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

John 15:4 (KJV) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Paul tells us when are absent from the body we are present with the Lord in heaven, that where He is we shall be also. We do not ascend to heaven as human beings, rather we ascend to heaven a spiritual body, living souls without human form through Christ's Holy Spirit in us.

Yes - through Christ who ascended for us, and through Christ's Holy Spirit in us. As you said below, He went to prepare a place for us.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:20-24 (KJV) According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

John 12:26 (KJV) If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

John 14:2-4 (KJV) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

I agree, man may only possess eternal spiritual life when they are indwelt with the life giving Spirit of Christ in us.

We agree.

We have assurance this eternal spiritual life will never end

Only if we do not do what Adam and Eve did, and depart from the Word of God which is Christ, and in Christ - because then there will be no further sacrifice for sins - and God is able to destroy both soul and body in gehennah. I'll come back to this further down below.

so when our mortal body dies, as spiritual body we ascend to heaven living souls

Yes!

where we wait for the Kingdom of God in heaven to be complete.

I disagree. I would say this - because the New Testament teaches it:

.. where we wait for the resurrection of the body from the dead and we will put on immortality.

I believe A&E were covered by the blood of Christ, via promise, the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. When they disobeyed God their eyes were opened, a spiritual picture of knowing they had sin against God. They tried to hide their nakedness without God because guilt made them realize what it meant to be naked before Him. Through grace God made them coats of skins, and clothed them, symbolizing righteousness through the blood of the Lamb of God.

Agreed.

Their life after receiving mercy from God's demonstrates IMO forgiveness of their sin. One son Abel proved to be righteous before God, which is evidence A&E has instructed them in the ways of God. The other son Cain demonstrates that from the fall through disobedience, sin and death through sin are still the consequence for all mankind, even though God forgives sin.

When God gave A&E another son to replace the one Cain killed called Seth. And in the days of Seth man began to call upon the name of the Lord. Certainly this is the result of A&E raising them up in the way they should go, teaching them to be righteous and obedient to God.

Genesis 4:25 (KJV) And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Genesis 4:26 (KJV) And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

IMO this is how we can know with certainty that A&E believed in God and through promise of the One Who would come to crush the serpent they possessed eternal life according to promise, and in death waited for Him to come to redeem them by His Spirit. They believed God and it was accounted unto them as righteousness.

Yes. I agree with the above. They were in Abraham's bosom until the ascension of Christ after He had died for their sins and ours, and rose again - then their living souls went to be with Him - and He is in the bosom of the Father.

Man, never possesses eternal life in ourselves.

Which is what I've been trying to say all along to so many - "never" also means "even after our resurrection from the dead and we have put on immortality". If we ever do what Adam and Eve did.

There is a parallel pattern between the first three and the last three chapters of the Bible, which has Rev 20 and 21 commencing at the same time:

Open (first three chapters): Beginning of time: God's creation (Genesis 1:1-31).
Close (last three chapters): Christ makes all things new (Revelation 21:5).

Open: Perfectly good (Genesis 1:31).
Close: Only righteousness dwells in it (Revelation 21:27).

Open: Tree of life (Genesis 2:9, 16-17).
Close: Tree of life (Revelation 21:6; Revelation 22:1-2, 14, 17).

Open: Adam given dominion (Genesis 1:26-28).
Close: The dominion of the last Adam (Revelation 20:4 - also see Revelation 3:21).

Open (first three chapters):

(a) Satan's deception of Adam & Eve (which began with the words "You will not surely die" - Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19).

(b) Expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:22-24).

(c) Death of Adam (the first death) - 930 years later (Genesis 5:5).

In-between the opening chapters and the closing chapters:

--- "I am the Resurrection [anastasis]
and the (eternal) life [zoe]!" (John 11:25 - Jesus) ---​

Close (last three chapters):

(a) Revelation 20:4, 5b & 6:
"Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand.

They were alive [zao] and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection [anastasis]. Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years."

(b) Satan's deception of the nations (Gog & Magog) (The first deception began with the words, "You will not surely die"):

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. * (Revelation 20:7-9).

Matthew 10:28
"Fear not them which kill the body [soma], but are not able to kill the soul [psuche]: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul [psuche] and body [soma] in gehennah [G1067 geenna]."

The New Testament uses the word gehennah every time Jesus talks about the everlasting destruction of body and soul. Gehennah and the lake of fire burning with brimstone both represent an everlasting destruction of body and soul.

* Revelation 19:20 (previous chapter) tells us that the beast and the false prophet were both thrown alive [zao] into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. The concept of being damned while alive [zao] is not extra-biblical or alien to scripture:

The source of immortality is the continual supply of life. The continual supply of life is eternal life. The only source of the continual supply of life, is God - and it is given to us in Christ.

- but God is still and always will be able to destroy both soul and body in gehennah, if we ever again do what Adam and Eve did.

We must make a distinction between that which is of mankind naturally through physical birth, and that which comes to man supernaturally through the Spirit of Christ through supernatural birth from above. Only that spirit in mankind that possesses the Holy Spirit of Christ has eternal life. All who remain living souls with body and natural spirit are destined to die.

I fully agree.

 

[rwb]

I disagree. I would say this - because the New Testament teaches it:

.. where we wait for the resurrection of the body from the dead and we will put on immortality.

Since the life we receive in Christ is eternal life, where do we wait after physical death for the resurrection of our mortal body to immortality and incorruptibility? If death of our physical body means we will not live again until the resurrection of our body, why does Scripture repeatedly say that when we believe in Christ and have His Holy Spirit in us, we have, not shall have eternal life?

 

[Zao is life]

Since the life we receive in Christ is eternal life, where do we wait after physical death for the resurrection of our mortal body to immortality and incorruptibility? If death of our physical body means we will not live again until the resurrection of our body, why does Scripture repeatedly say that when we believe in Christ and have His Holy Spirit in us, we have, not shall have eternal life?

The death of our body means we are not alive [zao] again until the resurrection of the body - a resurrection which comes by the life [zoe] of Christ.

Your question conflates living | being alive [zao] with the spiritual life [zoe] which is its source.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

God created human beings to live | to be alive [zao] in created bodies, on the created earth; and He breathed (spirit) life [ZOE] into Adam in order that Adam could ZAO [live | be alive] forever. God did not create human beings to "die and then go to heaven when we die" - death is the enemy of God - and the first humans lived in a paradise.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

The New Testament makes a very clear and consistent distinction between living | being alive [zao]

- and the life [zoe] which is its source.

We do not possess life [zoe] (the source of being alive - zao) IN OURSELVES. Our eternal life [zoe aionios] is in Christ.

- He alone possesses life [zoe] IN HIMSELF.

God created man body [soma] and soul [psuche] and gave him (a) spirit [pneuma] of life [zoe]

- by the Spirit of God breathing life [zoe] into him, so that Adam became a living [zao] soul [psuche]:

Body [soma], soul [psuche] and spirit [pneuma] of life [zoe]

- making him alive [zao] and keeping him alive [zao] - till he lost the source:

Spirit [pneuma] is associated with life [zoe] - the source of:

Living " being alive [zao]

The only source of that life (spirit) is God - life exists IN the Word (John 1:4).

Pscuhe is used interchageably in the New Testament in reference to the life [psuche] of the flesh, the mind [psuche], and the soul [psuche] of the flesh.

"Being always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight; then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord. Therefore we are also laboring to be well-pleasing to Him, whether at home or away from home." (2 Corinthians 5:6-9).

"Away from home out of the body" = souls without limbs.

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." (Revelation 6:9-11).

The quickening (making alive again) of our dead bodies and the (coming) resurrection of our dead bodies is the same power that quickened Christ's dead body and raised His dead body:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be quickened [zoopoieo]." 1 Corinthians 15:22 .

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

1. your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

2. Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

"When the Messiah, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

"Fool ! That which you sow is not quickened [zoopoieo], except it die." (1 Corinthians 15:36)

Paul was answering the question: "How are the dead raised [egeiro]? With what kind of body [soma] will they come?" (1 Corinthians 15:35), and he was talking about the resurrection of the body from death/the dead.

Ephesians 2:4-6 is related to Colossians 2:12-13 and uses the exact same Greek words as Colossians 2:12-13, which is talking only about the quickening of Christ's dead body (by the Spirit), and His bodily resurrection from the dead:

Colossians 2:12-13
"Ye are
* buried with him [sunthapto] in baptism, wherein also all of you are
* risen with him [sunegeiro] through the faith of the operation of God, who has
* raised him [egeiro] from the dead.

Christ's Spirit did not die. His body died, and was buried. His soul went to hades. By the Spirit His dead body was quickened (made alive again) and raised from the dead (resurrection of the body). After this HE ascended to heaven.

Not one verse in the New Testament referring to resurrection / being raised from death is NOT referring to the resurrection of the body.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him [syzoopoieo], having forgiven you all trespasses." (Colossians 2:12-13).

"If the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:11).

So using the same Greek words he used in Colossians 2:12-13, in Ephesians 2:4-6, Paul says,

"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, Even when we were dead in sins,

(1) He has * syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has * raised us up together (synegeírō)

and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

* The word "has" in Ephesians 2:5-6 is past tense: Christ's dead body has (past tense) been quickened and raised, and those who belong to Him have been (past tense) quickened and raised together with Him.

It's talking about the positional reality in Christ of those who belong to Him, and it's because (and through) the following two facts:

"Christ is risen [egeiro] from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection [anastasis] of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be quickened [zoopoieo: made alive]." (1 Corinthians 15:20-22 ).

and because, as Jesus taught those who believe in Him:

"I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
(John 14:19b-20b)​

Paul called this "the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints,

which is Christ IN you, the hope of glory."
(Colossians 1:27).​

So Paul says,

"If then ye be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life [zōḗ] is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:1-4).

This exposes the teaching in many main-stream churches because:

(i) The word zoopoieo (quickening, being made alive) is being applied to the mortal body in all the above verses. Not to a "quickening" of a "dead" human spirit.

(ii) The words egeiro (raised), sunegeiro (raised with) and anastasis (THE resurrection of the body from the dead) - whenever the words are referring to resurrection from death - are always referring to the resurrection of the body in the New Testament.

suzōopoiéō: Used in reference to the dead body being quickened, i.e made alive again together with: the quickening of Christ's dead body.

sunegeírō: Refers to being bodily raised up together with (through): Christ's bodily resurrection.

It's talking about the positional reality in Christ of those who belong to Him, and it's because HIS Spirit OF LIFE is IN us.

"For to this end Christ both died [apothnesko] and rose [anistemi: resurrection of the body] and lived again [anazao - alive in the body],
that He might be Lord both of the dead [nekros] and living" [zao: alive in the body]."

Jesus said, "Do not fear, I am the First and the Last, and the Living [ZAO] One, and I became dead nekros], and behold, I am alive [ZAO] for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hades and of death." (Revelation 1:17-18)

Jesus is referring to His bodily immortality in Revelation 1:17-18.

God created the human being with a body, a soul, and breathed spirit (of life) into him. God never intended for Adam or anyone else to die.

 

[rwb]

The death of our body means we are not alive [zao] again until the resurrection of the body - a resurrection which comes by the life [zoe] of Christ.

Your question conflates living | being alive [zao] with the spiritual life [zoe] which is its source.

Because the source, spirit, is still a living soul (alive) after physical death. That's how John is able to see souls alive AFTER they lived and reigned and were martyred, spiritually with Christ during this period of time symbolized a thousand years. They are the spiritual body of Christ, living souls without physical form because before they were martyred, they had part in Christ's resurrection, and are as the angels of God in heaven spirit. That's why Christ says "they neither marry, nor are given in marriage" because we are espoused to Christ forever. Even after our flesh has died, Christ tells us "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." He would not say that if we do not continue to be alive (living souls) the spiritual body of Christ in heaven even without human form. Even Old Covenant saints of God, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who have physically died, Christ says are still living spirit even after their bodies succumb to death.

In this passage Christ is not referring to the physical resurrection of our body when He comes again. Because our body of flesh shall be resurrected changed to immortal & incorruptible. Our body of flesh is not resurrected as the angels of God in heaven, who are spirit without form. Our body in the resurrection on the last day shall be whole again with body + breath of life (spirit) to be complete living souls fit to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

Matthew 22:28-32 (KJV) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

God did not create human beings to "die and then go to heaven when we die" - death is the enemy of God - and the first humans lived in a paradise.

Yes, exactly! God created humans with flesh & blood to live on the earth. But when we are born again of the Spirit of Christ, we are promised eternal life. The reason Christ makes this promise, knowing our physical flesh is ordained to die, is because even though our body shall die, our spirit returns to God alive (living soul), otherwise Christ would not have said "whosoever lives and believes in Me, shall NEVER die"! That's also the reason Christ tells us, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

When our body of flesh & bone is resurrected on the last day, we shall be made whole again with body + breath of life (spirit) to be living souls once more, but on the new earth there shall no longer be sin nor death through sin because everything shall be made new as in the creation when all that God created was "good"!

God created man body [soma] and soul [psuche] and gave him (a) spirit [pneuma] of life [zoe]

You have human creation out of order. Man was created body + spirit and became a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, [soma] and breathed [nâphach]
into his nostrils the breath of life; [nᵉshâmâh chay] and man became a living soul.[chay nephesh]

נָפַח nâphach, naw-fakh' - a primitive root; to puff, in various applications (literally, to inflate, blow hard, scatter, kindle, expire; figuratively, to disesteem):—blow, breath, give up, cause to lose (life), seething, snuff.

נְשָׁמָה nᵉshâmâh, nesh-aw-maw' - from H5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:—blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

חַי chay, khah'-ee - from H2421; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:— age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, merry, multitude, (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh - from H5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.

God, who is Spirit, breathed life into the body He created, enabling man to be alive through His Spirit breath, then God called what He had created and made alive a living soul. Nashamah chay defines life as coming from divine inspiration, and intellect from God as both soul and spirit, I believe that's why there is confusion between the part of man that is spirit and their soul.

When man sinned, the Spirit of God that gave them life departed from their flesh, because God, Who is Spirit, shall not dwell where there is evil. Once the Spirit Who gives eternal life departed from man, they became another nature, that is called natural man of the world, of the serpent (Satan) whose voice deceived them, destined to die until we are born again through God's Spirit and once again given eternal life through Him. When man is born again, indwelt with the Spirit of God through Christ, the life we have in Him shall never die.

continued next page..

 

[rwb]

Paul was answering the question: "How are the dead raised [egeiro]? With what kind of body [soma] will they come?" (1 Corinthians 15:35), and he was talking about the resurrection of the body from death/the dead.

You're only focusing on one part of how Paul describes being made alive (quickened). First Paul speaks about that part of man that is quickened (made alive through the Holy Spirit). We who were not physically dead but dead in trespasses and sins must be made alive (quickened) in life. That's why Paul says what is sown is not quickened and does not say 'resurrected'.

Paul explains how man of faith shall not only be bodily resurrected immortal & incorruptible, also before that the spirit of man who died in faith is made alive (quickened) after physical death because God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Christ risen from the dead became the firstfruits of the dead. How? Through His Spirit giving spiritual life to those who died in faith before His coming to earth. Before ascending to heaven, Christ, through His Spirit first descended to Abraham's bosom and the Old Covenant faithful saints were sealed (see Rev 7) by His Spirit quickening their spirits and taking them alive with Him to heaven. No one possesses eternal life in heaven without being quickened, made spiritually alive by faith in Christ. All must be born again, through Christ's Spirit even the Old Covenant saints who lived and died in faith waiting for the promised Messiah to come and rescue them.

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Paul says to be resurrected bodily immortal & incorruptible those who die in faith of Christ must first be alive (quickened, not resurrected) after death. That is NOT the same body that we die in. Paul writes it is "but bare grain", but God gives the body that pleases Him. A spiritual body that is living soul.

1 Corinthians 15:35-38 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

When our natural body of flesh & blood dies, in the resurrection of the dead it is first raised a "spiritual body" living soul. Because there is a natural body of flesh and blood and a spiritual body that shall be as are the angels of God in heaven without physical form. The natural comes first then after the natural dies "afterward that which is spiritual." Just as on the earth in physical body of flesh and blood we are as are the earthy (natural man), so too after the natural body dies man of faith is as those are of heaven, heavenly. We were born in the image of all that is of the earth, and in death the saints of God shall bear the image of the heavenly, which is spirit. Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, nor does corruption. Our body shall not be changed incorruptible until it is resurrected on the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:42-50 (KJV) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Lastly, Paul writes that our body of flesh & blood shall also be raised incorruptible and no longer mortal, but immortal when the last trumpet sounds and Christ comes again. Paul tells us in 1Th 4:14 that when Christ returns He will bring all who have died in faith (spiritual body) with Him to one again give life to our resurrected immortal & incorruptible body of flesh & bone that shall be for everlasting life with Christ on the new earth.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Zao is life]

You're only focusing on one part of how Paul describes being made alive (quickened). First Paul speaks about that part of man that is quickened (made alive through the Holy Spirit). We who were not physically dead but dead in trespasses and sins must be made alive (quickened) in life. That's why Paul says what is sown is not quickened and does not say 'resurrected'.

You are still conflating things.

Zoe: Noun.
Zao: Verb.

Zoe is life itself and existed in God before He created anything. The same God in whom is life [zoe] is described in the New Testament as living [zao] because God has always been alive (living) [zao] because living [zao] is active, ongoing.

The above was the case before God's creation even existed.

In the creation to be zao is to be alive. Zao is the expression in the creation of the life [zoe] which is its source.

1. Nowhere does the New Testament tell us that it has been given to us to be alive [zao] forever in Christ. We are told that in Christ we have been given eternal life [zoe] - which is the source of our living | being alive.

2. Nowhere in the New Testament is something that has died described as being zao [alive].

In the New Testament, zōē and zaō are closely related but serve different grammatical and theological roles.

1. zōē - life (noun)

Meaning

1. Zōē refers to life as God has it and gives it.

-- The source of all life [zoe] is God --

* Divine, spiritual, and eternal life
* Life that comes from God and is sustained by Him

* Used in reference to created things (humans) zoe can denote ordinary creaturely life, not only eternal life.
* Eternal Life (zōē aiōnios) is given in Christ - who alone possesses life IN HIMSELF - to fallen human beings because of His death for our sins and resurrection from the dead.

2. zaō - to live | to be alive (verb)

Meaning

Zaō simply means to live, to be alive, or to continue living. God is described as the living [zao] God.

Range of use

* Physical existence (being alive)
* Manner of life (“how one lives”)
* Vitality (living toward God)

Examples

* "Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth [zao]? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth [zao]; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband." (Romans 7:1-2).

* Romans 14:8: “If we live (zaō), we live to the Lord.”
* Galatians 2:20: “It is no longer I who live (zaō), but Christ who lives in me.”
* Luke 20:38: “For all live (zaō) to Him.”

In short, zaō = the act or state of living | of being alive.

By implication some of the verses in the New Testament that use the word zao are also referring to the source of living | being alive [zao] - which is the life [zoe] of Christ ("the just shall live [zao] by faith" - Galatians 3:11).

Nowhere in the New Testament is something that is dead or has died described as being zao [alive].

Nowhere in the New Testament are we told that it has been given to us to live [zao] forever in Christ. We have been given eternal life [zoe] in Christ

We either live | are alive in our bodies, or we are not.

Adam would have been a vegetable if he did not have a soul when God created him - but scripture tells us otherwise:

"For the life [Hebrew: nephesh] of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls [nephesh]: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul [nephesh | Greek: psuchḗ]." (Leviticus 17:11).

Same Hebrew used for both the life of the flesh, and the soul. The Greek New Testament uses the equivalent word psuche (also spelled psychḗ) interchangeably for:

The soul; and
The mind; and
The life of the flesh
(list of verses, quoted, HERE)

The first man had a body and soul - soul is of the body - and God breathed life [zoe] into Him - and that's when he became a living [zao] soul - and had he not sinned, he would have continued to be live | to be alive [zao].

Zaō simply means to live, to be alive, or to continue living. God is described as the living [zao] God many times in the New Testament, who is also described as having life [zoe] in Himself.

Those who have been given eternal life [zoe] in Christ do not continue to live [zao] "in Christ" when we die. No dead thing or person who has died is described as zao anywhere in the New Testament. We either live | are alive [zao] in our bodies, or we are not.

When we die in Christ, the body goes to the grave, and the soul goes to be with Christ - Paul calls it being "away from home out of the body and at home with the Lord".

Zoe is a noun and refers to life itself.
Zao is a verb.

You are still conflating the two.

 

[Zao is life]

You're only focusing on one part of how Paul describes being made alive (quickened). First Paul speaks about that part of man that is quickened (made alive through the Holy Spirit). We who were not physically dead but dead in trespasses and sins must be made alive (quickened) in life.

Our bodies are dead because our bodies are dying because we are dead in our sins - those are Paul's words.

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

1. your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

2. Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

"Dead in sins" = your body is dead because of sin.

Not much point in my debating this with you unless you look carefully again at ALL the passages talking about quickening, comparing them all with one another - in order to decide if indeed some of them are referring to the quickening of the dead human body, and some to the quickening of a so-called "dead" human spirit - or to the dead soul being made alive [zao] again.

The life [zoe] of Christ that is in you through your having been born of the Spirit has reconnected your soul (and your God-given spirit that is given to all creatures in which is the breath of life), to the Spirit of life [zoe] Himself.

As a result, your dead body will be quickened with the same power that Christ's dead body was quickened with - because it occurs by the same Spirit who quickened Christ's dead body - and your dead body will be raised with the same power and by the same Spirit when Christ returns:

"When the Messiah, who is our life [zoe], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." - Paul is referring to our being raised from the dead - the resurrection when Christ returns.

Many (if not most) main-stream churches have added a "quickening" of the human spirit to a gospel doctrine that teaches no such thing.

Your soul - which is associated with, and now still part of your human life [psuche] and your human body - has been made alive [zao] by being given eternal life [zoe] IN CHRIST - through being born [gennao] of the Spirit - not through the so-called "quickening of the soul" or "dead" human spirit.

- and so your soul will go to be with Christ until the resurrection of your body from the dead - but your body will not continue to be alive [zao] when you die - because nothing that has died is still zao or called zao in the scriptures. For a created human being to be zao (alive) is to be alive in the creation - not dead.

This is why it is necessary for God to quicken your mortal body.

It is because of the life [zoe] of Christ in you that even when you are no longer zao (alive), your soul, being away from home out of the body, will go home to be with Christ.

The word zōopoiéō (quickening) does not refer to the quickening of a "dead" human spirit anywhere the word is used - not even in Ephesians 2:4-6 - it's referring to the quickening of a dead human body that is already dead in sin and is dying, and will die.

That's why Paul says what is sown is not quickened and does not say 'resurrected'.

Paul uses the word quickened where he speaks about the dead body being sown. It dies, and then it is quickened:

1 Corinthians 15
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

It dies, and then it is quickened:

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

1. your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

2. Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

The rest will follow in the next post.

 

[Zao is life]

Paul explains how man of faith shall not only be bodily resurrected immortal & incorruptible, also before that the spirit of man who died in faith is made alive (quickened) after physical death because God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

That's not true at all. Again, that is your main-stream church theology talking.

The Sadducees were bringing arguments against the concept of the resurrection of the dead to Jesus, so as biblical proof of the coming resurrection, Jesus pointed out:

1. The fact that God is not the God of the dead, but of those who are alive [zao]; and

2. The fact that God is called "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob", who had all died.

Jesus said:

"As touching the dead [nekros[, that they rise [egeiro]: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead [nekros], but the God of the living [zao: of those who are alive]: ye therefore do greatly err." (Mark 12:26-27).

The Sadducees understood that they could bring no further argument against the resurrection (of the body) from the dead, because Jesus reminded them that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who were dead, and God is not the God of the dead, but of those who are alive in the body [zao].

- but the church has corrupted it and added this false doctrine:

"In the Bible, God is referred to as the "God of the living," emphasizing His relationship with those who are spiritually alive. (false).

* (The Bible does **not** talk about created humans being "spiritually alive", but of those who have been given eternal life, which is in Christ - who alone possesses eternal life in Himself).

* There is no such thing as a "spiritual" resurrection or a "spiritual" quickening (a quickening of a "dead human spirit") spoken of in the New Testament - as though such a "regenerated dead human spirit" is another source of eternal life [zoe aionios].

True: In the Bible, the living [zao] God who alone is spiritually alive [zoe], having (eternal) life in Himself, is referred to as the "God of the living", emphasizing His relationship with created human beings who are alive [zao].

The church: "Jesus used this phrase to argue against the Sadducees, who did not believe in the resurrection of the body from the dead, to indicate that these patriarchs were still alive in God's presence." (false).

True: Jesus was referring to the fact that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not bodily living [zao], yet God was nevertheless still their God, therefore Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - who had died and were therefore dead, not zao (alive), would rise again from the dead bodily (hence they will be zao - alive in their resurrected bodies following their resurrection from the dead).

Hence, Jesus proved to the Saduccees that their arguments against the resurrection were all false. (Mark 12:26–27).

The Sadducees understood that Jesus had proved their argument against the resurrection of the body from the dead to be false - but the church has corrupted it (as though to make up for the loss of the Sadducees' corruption) .

 

[Zao is life]

Christ risen from the dead became the firstfruits of the dead. How? Through His Spirit giving spiritual life to those who died in faith before His coming to earth.

The only one with spiritual life [zoe] is God. ALL spiritual life is IN THE WORD.

CHRIST IN YOU IS THE HOPE OF THE RESURRECTION OF YOUR BODY FROM THE DEAD.

Before ascending to heaven, Christ, through His Spirit first descended to Abraham's bosom

No. He did not descend into Abraham's bosom. The Bible does not tell you that. You don't even have one verse in the New Testament telling you that He descended into Abraham's bosom - but you do have these verses:

Acts 2
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I'm going to leave this discussion with you now, because debating what is written is one thing, but you are bringing up false doctrines that are not written - and that's my queue to leave.

Thank you to you and @David in NJ for your replies.

Hope you have a wonderful Christmas. That goes for @David in NJ too.

 

[rwb]

You are still conflating things.

Zoe: Noun.
Zao: Verb.

Zoe is life itself and existed in God before He created anything. The same God in whom is life [zoe] is described in the New Testament as living [zao] because God has always been alive (living) [zao] because living [zao] is active, ongoing.

The above was the case before God's creation even existed.

In the creation to be zao is to be alive. Zao is the expression in the creation of the life [zoe] which is its source.

1. Nowhere does the New Testament tell us that it has been given to us to be alive [zao] forever in Christ. We are told that in Christ we have been given eternal life [zoe] - which is the source of our living | being alive.

2. Nowhere in the New Testament is something that has died described as being zao [alive].

In the New Testament, zōē and zaō are closely related but serve different grammatical and theological roles.

1. zōē - life (noun)

Meaning

1. Zōē refers to life as God has it and gives it.

-- The source of all life [zoe] is God --

* Divine, spiritual, and eternal life
* Life that comes from God and is sustained by Him

* Used in reference to created things (humans) zoe can denote ordinary creaturely life, not only eternal life.
* Eternal Life (zōē aiōnios) is given in Christ - who alone possesses life IN HIMSELF - to fallen human beings because of His death for our sins and resurrection from the dead.

2. zaō - to live | to be alive (verb)

Meaning

Zaō simply means to live, to be alive, or to continue living. God is described as the living [zao] God.

Range of use

* Physical existence (being alive)
* Manner of life (“how one lives”)
* Vitality (living toward God)

Examples

* "Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth [zao]? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth [zao]; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband." (Romans 7:1-2).

* Romans 14:8: “If we live (zaō), we live to the Lord.”
* Galatians 2:20: “It is no longer I who live (zaō), but Christ who lives in me.”
* Luke 20:38: “For all live (zaō) to Him.”

In short, zaō = the act or state of living | of being alive.

By implication some of the verses in the New Testament that use the word zao are also referring to the source of living | being alive [zao] - which is the life [zoe] of Christ ("the just shall live [zao] by faith" - Galatians 3:11).

Nowhere in the New Testament is something that is dead or has died described as being zao [alive].

Nowhere in the New Testament are we told that it has been given to us to live [zao] forever in Christ. We have been given eternal life [zoe] in Christ

We either live | are alive in our bodies, or we are not.

Adam would have been a vegetable if he did not have a soul when God created him - but scripture tells us otherwise:

"For the life [Hebrew: nephesh] of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls [nephesh]: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul [nephesh | Greek: psuchḗ]." (Leviticus 17:11).

Same Hebrew used for both the life of the flesh, and the soul. The Greek New Testament uses the equivalent word psuche (also spelled psychḗ) interchangeably for:

The soul; and
The mind; and
The life of the flesh
(list of verses, quoted, HERE)

The first man had a body and soul - soul is of the body - and God breathed life [zoe] into Him - and that's when he became a living [zao] soul - and had he not sinned, he would have continued to be live | to be alive [zao].

Zaō simply means to live, to be alive, or to continue living. God is described as the living [zao] God many times in the New Testament, who is also described as having life [zoe] in Himself.

Those who have been given eternal life [zoe] in Christ do not continue to live [zao] "in Christ" when we die. No dead thing or person who has died is described as zao anywhere in the New Testament. We either live | are alive [zao] in our bodies, or we are not.

When we die in Christ, the body goes to the grave, and the soul goes to be with Christ - Paul calls it being "away from home out of the body and at home with the Lord".

Zoe is a noun and refers to life itself.
Zao is a verb.

You are still conflating the two.

It may be after the holidays before I can reply, things have gotten busy here. rwb

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's not true at all. Again, that is your main-stream church theology talking.

The Sadducees were bringing arguments against the concept of the resurrection of the dead to Jesus, so as biblical proof of the coming resurrection, Jesus pointed out:

1. The fact that God is not the God of the dead, but of those who are alive [zao]; and

2. The fact that God is called "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob", who had all died.

Jesus said:

"As touching the dead [nekros[, that they rise [egeiro]: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead [nekros], but the God of the living [zao: of those who are alive]: ye therefore do greatly err." (Mark 12:26-27).

The Sadducees understood that they could bring no further argument against the resurrection (of the body) from the dead, because Jesus reminded them that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who were dead, and God is not the God of the dead, but of those who are alive in the body [zao].

NONSENSE! If God is not the God of the dead, but only of those who are alive in the body then that would mean He is not currently the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob! You are COMPLETELY misinterpreting what Jesus was saying there. He was showing that since physically dead believers are ALIVE now (our souls and spirits DO NOT die, and believers remain CONSCIOUS after physical death!) rather than ceasing to exist when they physically died, as the Sadducees believed, then there was no reason to not believe that they would one day be bodily resurrected from the dead.

You are promoting the false doctrine of SOUL SLEEP here whether you acknowledge it or not. God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob right NOW! And since He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, that means Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive right NOW.

- but the church has corrupted it and added this false doctrine:

"In the Bible, God is referred to as the "God of the living," emphasizing His relationship with those who are spiritually alive. (false).

No, it's true! You have deceived yourself with YOUR false doctrine.

 

[rwb]

1. Nowhere does the New Testament tell us that it has been given to us to be alive [zao] forever in Christ. We are told that in Christ we have been given eternal life [zoe] - which is the source of our living | being alive.

Yes it does! What Scripture tells us is that when we believe in Christ, having been born again through His Spirit is us we possess ETERNAL life. That's present tense, not future tense. How are we be eternally alive in Christ when we have been born again? Through His eternal life-giving Spirit! When we have Christ's Spirit we have/are in Christ and He has/is in us FOREVER! How? Because the Spirit of Christ in us has given us assurance that He shall NEVER leave us, and not even physical death can take away our ETERNAL LIFE from the Spirit.

John 14:16-20 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Through His Spirit in us, Christ has purchased us eternally/forever when we have been born again. And we have His promise that the Spirit will never leave us, and will be with us until the whole man, that which the blood of Christ has purchased shall be resurrected immortal & incorruptible when Christ comes again.

Acts 20:28 (KJV) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Ephesians 1:12-14 (KJV) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Used in reference to created things (humans) zoe can denote ordinary creaturely life, not only eternal life.

That's because every living creature possesses the breath of life (spirit) that gives all living creatures PHYSICAL, not ETERNAL life. When the body of every living creature dies without the Holy Spirit they are "the dead" and mankind without the Spirit shall not have any life again until the resurrection on the last day when they shall be resurrected to give an account for their deeds according to what is written in the books and the book of life.

Adam would have been a vegetable if he did not have a soul when God created him - but scripture tells us otherwise:

Adam would have remained a lump of clay without the Spirit of life breathed into him. Because it is the spirit that gives life both physically and eternally. Since the Spirit who breathed life into Adam's body, making him a living soul, departed from him when they sinned, man was no longer Spiritually alive, but they remained physically alive. Man, that was created the likeness of God to live forever through the Spirit in them, without natural life from the Spirit of God, humankind became natural mankind. This is proven when Seth was born not after the image of God, but in the image of his natural father, Adam, under the curse, destined to die.

Genesis 5:1-3 (KJV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

This is the theme of the Bible from the beginning to the end, explaining why mankind MUST BE BORN AGAIN to live eternally/forever.

This is all I have time for this morning.

Wishing you and yours a very blessed Christmas and blessings throughout the New Year!

 

[rwb]

Our bodies are dead because our bodies are dying because we are dead in our sins - those are Paul's words.

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

1. your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

2. Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

"Dead in sins" = your body is dead because of sin.

It was not our body that was quickened (made alive), we are already physically alive! What part of man was dead and must be made alive? Is it not both spirit & soul together? Certainly not our physical body that is already alive! Because the spirit is the breath (oxygen; air) that makes us alive and to be a soul is to possess life; heart, rational mind of us. Without having soul through the breath of life (spirit) mankind would be no different than every other living breathing creature upon the earth, whose flesh returns to the earth, and all life (breath) is extinguished forever. But mankind, through the Spirit of Christ in us is not like the beasts of the earth, when we die our spirit returns to God alive (living soul) a spiritual body (having the breath of life) forever/eternally. Because man alone was created with body of flesh + breath of life (spirit) and became a living soul. Every other living creature upon the earth has only body + spirit, which is why when their flesh dies, they return to dust and shall be no more!

When we are born again through the Spirit of Christ in us, we, that is our spirit, is again made into the likeness and image of God who is Spirit, spiritually through His Holy Spirit in us. It does not yet appear what we shall be! We are already the children of God with eternal spiritual life while still clothed in bodies of natural flesh destined to die. It's the already but not yet aspect of salvation.

1 John 3:1-3 (KJV) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Romans 8:16 (KJV) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1 Corinthians 6:11 (KJV) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (KJV) Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (KJV) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The reason we cannot now see what we shall be is because what we are now in human body is destined to die, and spirit through Christ in us (Spirit) called "living souls", destined to life forever/eternally is not seen. We can KNOW in Christ we have again become the image of God, through Christ in us, but the spirit, like the Kingdom of God in us is not now that which can be physically seen, not of flesh, not of this world but of SPIRIT. This is why we, who have been born again worship Him in spirit and in truth.

We know that Christ came with the Kingdom of God through the works, signs and miracles He did. Through the same signs and miracles with His promise, we know that we have entered into the Kingdom of God having eternal/everlasting/never ending life through Him, even though we shall all die physically. Just as the Kingdom of God Christ came with is not now of this world, and cannot by seen with physical sight, so too we know through His Spirit witnessing to our natural spirit that the life we receive when we are in Christ shall NEVER die because the eternal/everlasting/never ending life we receive while clothed in bodies of flesh is not of the flesh because it is spiritual, and the Kingdom of God shall never be taken from those who have eternal/everlasting/never ending life through Him, death cannot separate us from Him.

Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Luke 17:21 (KJV) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Not much point in my debating this with you unless you look carefully again at ALL the passages talking about quickening, comparing them all with one another - in order to decide if indeed some of them are referring to the quickening of the dead human body, and some to the quickening of a so-called "dead" human spirit - or to the dead soul being made alive [zao] again.

Can you provide a single verse of Scripture to prove quickening is of dead human body, and not quickening of spirit/soul which is mind, heart, will and emotions? IOW receiving physical life rather than being made spiritually alive again when we receive new heart and mind? Resurrection life speaks of that which is of flesh coming to life again, while quickening life speaks of the spiritual change that occurs within our heart and mind when we have been born again, and our sins and iniquities He shall remember no more. No longer under the sentence of death, even though our flesh is destined to die.

Hebrews 10:15-17 (KJV) Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

2 Corinthians 3:3 (KJV) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Matthew 22:37 (KJV) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

continued

 

[rwb]

As a result, your dead body will be quickened with the same power that Christ's dead body was quickened with - because it occurs by the same Spirit who quickened Christ's dead body - and your dead body will be raised with the same power and by the same Spirit when Christ returns:

The body of Christ was not quickened! The body of Christ was physically resurrected three days after He died. But death on the cross could not kill His spirit. Through the Spirit, the spirit that gave physical life to Christ, quickened by the Holy Spirit returned to the Father in heaven just as every human spirit/soul does. His flesh went into the grave, but His spirit alive was with His Father in heaven after His body died. We have a beautiful witness of this truth from the mouth of Stephen just before being stoned to death. Stephen saw Jesus on the right hand of God, and calling upon God said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Stephen would not have appealed to Christ to receive his spirit is physical death kills both spirit/soul as well as physical flesh.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Acts 7:54-55 (KJV) When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Acts 7:56-60 (KJV) And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Paul uses the word quickened where he speaks about the dead body being sown. It dies, and then it is quickened:

That cannot be, because Paul would not say "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." Our natural body will not be raised a spiritual body, it will be resurrected changed from mortal to immortal, and corruptible to incorruptible. It is the spiritual body that is quickened (made alive) when the physical body dies. Paul tells us it is raised a "spiritual body", not the natural body that shall not be resurrected when the body of flesh dies, because that shall not be until the hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer.

continued

 

[rwb]

* (The Bible does **not** talk about created humans being "spiritually alive", but of those who have been given eternal life, which is in Christ - who alone possesses eternal life in Himself).

But Paul does speak of believers being "raised (not resurrected) a spiritual body" when our natural body succumbs to death. This is the reason Christ tells us that whosoever lives and believes in Him SHALL NEVER DIE!

Jesus was referring to the fact that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not bodily living [zao], yet God was nevertheless still their God, therefore Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - who had died and were therefore dead, not zao (alive), would rise again from the dead bodily (hence they will be zao - alive in their resurrected bodies following their resurrection from the dead).

What Jesus was referring to is the fact that even these Old Covenant faithful saints are spiritually alive a spiritual body/living soul since Christ has come and sin and death through sin have been defeated for whosoever is born again. Jesus says they are alive after death through Covenant promise. Having died in faith believing the Messiah would come to rescue them, they are among the physically dead that ascended to heaven with Christ after His resurrection. Now, they and all who have died in faith of Christ become a spiritual body/living soul as are the angels of God in heaven.

No. He did not descend into Abraham's bosom. The Bible does not tell you that. You don't even have one verse in the New Testament telling you that He descended into Abraham's bosom - but you do have these verses:

What part of "lower parts of the earth" do you think the Spirit of Christ descended to before ascending with them to heaven, if not that part of the grave set apart for saints of Old (great chasm) from the dead in unbelief?

Who are these held captives in the lower parts of the earth Christ led as He ascended up far above all heavens?

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

John 5:25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Peter 3

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Do you think through His quickened spirit He preached the gospel to the physically dead hoping those souls

who died in the days of Noah in unbelief would come to believe on Him and be eternally saved? Do you think the unsaved physically dead are looking for Him?

Hebrews 9:27-28 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I'm going to leave this discussion with you now, because debating what is written is one thing, but you are bringing up false doctrines that are not written - and that's my queue to leave.

It's fine with me if you want to end this discussion. But please be honest in departing! Don't say I've come with false doctrines that you've failed to prove. I've supported all that I've said with abundance of Scripture proof texts that you have not been able to prove as false.

 

[Zao is life]

That's because every living creature possesses the breath of life (spirit) that gives all living creatures PHYSICAL, not ETERNAL life.

Even though in the above statement and without even realizing it you make the distinction between living | being alive - physical life [zao] - and the breath of life [zoe] which sustains it (causes us to remain alive),

you still fail to understand that no living creature possesses the breath of life (spirit) that God gives. The only origin and source of that breath of life [zoe] is still God, and it's still GIVEN by God, and it must continually be given by God in order for it to sustain that physical life [zao].

When the body dies,

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

Yes it does! What Scripture tells us is that when we believe in Christ, having been born again through His Spirit is us we possess ETERNAL life.

You're still conflating

(a) life [zoe]- which only the Man Jesus Christ POSSESSES (in Himself) (John 1:4 and John 5:26) and which is GIVEN IN CHRIST to us, with

(b) physical life [zao].

In the New Testament, zōē and zaō are closely related but serve different grammatical and theological roles.

1.zōē - life (noun)

Meaning

1. Zōē refers to life as God has it and gives it.

-- The origin and source of all life [zoe] is God --

* Divine, spiritual, and eternal life
* Life that comes from God and is sustained by Him

* zoe can also be used to denote ordinary creaturely life (not only *eternal* life).
* Eternal Life (zōē aiōnios) is given *in Christ* to fallen human beings.

2. zaō - to live | to be alive (verb)

Meaning

Zaō simply means to live, to be alive, or to continue living.

Range of use

* Physical existence (being alive)
* Manner of life (“how one lives”)
* Vitality (living toward God)

Examples

* Romans 14:8: “If we live (zaō), we live to the Lord.”
* Galatians 2:20: “It is no longer I who live (zaō), but Christ who lives in me.”
* Luke 20:38: “For all live (zaō) to Him.”

In short, zaō = the act or state of living | of being alive.

* By implication zao sometimes *also* refers to the source of living | being alive.

* The source of being alive is life itself [zoe], which is in God, of God, and given by God.

Throughout the New Testament,

Zoe (noun) pertains to life - the origin and only source of which is God.
Zao (verb) - whenever it is used in reference to the creature - pertains to living | being alive - the creature.

Eternal life: zoe aionois
To live | to be alive: zao.

The One God who exists from eternity unto eternity is a Spirit (John 4:24) and the source of all existence, and all life [zoe]. The life [zoe] that is in Him is eternal life [zoe aionios].

God alone has/possesses life [zoe] in Himself (John 1:4; John 5:26).

Nowhere does scripture tell us that we POSSESS eternal life (in ourselves) - it tells you that Christ alone possesses eternal life in Himself.

If the created humans and their seed possessed eternal life that would mean that we are a separate God to God - because GOD is life [zoe] and the only origin and source of eternal life [zoe aionios].

The Spirit of Christ quickened His dead body and by the Spirit He was raised bodily from the dead.

It is because of Christ's Spirit in us that our dead bodies are quickened with Him and will be raised with Him.

It is because of Christ's eternal life [zoe] that He alone possesses, and which is given IN CHRIST to us, that we have eternal life.

HE sustains it - not us.

God is alive [zao] and possesses life [zoe] in Himself. He is the eternally becoming God, Eternal life [zoe aionios] is not like static water in a lake with no outlet. It's the river of the water of life that flows continually, God always becoming God.

It is because we have been born of the Spirit that Christ's Spirit is in us, giving us eternal life [zoe] and quickening our mortal human bodies - the eternal life [zoe] by which we will be alive [zao] forever (immortal) following the resurrection of our bodies from the dead - and we need to continually be drinking of the water of the river of life that is freely given to us IN CHRIST, or we will die. The branch that does not remain in the Vine - the origin and source of life [zoe], withers and dies.

The new birth is also not a "quickening" of a "dead human spirit" - quickening indeed does always refer to making something alive again that was dead,

but we were not born with a "dead human spirit". That's church doctrine brought about through conflating the very things we are talking about - that you are conflating.

Adam did not continue to live [zao] eternally because the Spirit of (eternal) life [zoe] which only God POSSESSES in himself - which God had breathed into his nostrils when he was created - had left him.

Life [zoe] has always been God's possession (something He possesses in Himself) - since eternity - long before He created anything, since long before He created the heavens and the earth and human beings.

Of all human beings ever to have walked on the earth since Adam and Eve, only to the Son of God (the Man, Jesus Christ) has it been given by God to possess eternal life in Himself (John 1:4 & John 5:26).

What happens when we are born of the Spirit is we are placed in Christ and the Spirit of Christ comes to live in us:

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

1. your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

2. Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

"When the Messiah, who is our life [zoe], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:4).

Until then,

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

The souls of those who died in Christ will be with Christ - where their spirit is - until the resurrection of our bodies, when the soul and spirit that God breathed into us when we were born from above is reunited with our bodies, and we will once again be a living [zao] body, soul and spirit, the way God created us to be.

Nowhere does the word quickening refer to the quickening of anything except the dead body when used in the New Testament, despite the fact that it's been changed by mainstream church doctrine to mean the quickening of a 'dead' human spirit in some passages

- yet the same doctrines acknowledge the fact that it's referring to the quickening of the dead body in other passages using the exact same Greek words expressed in a different way (Paul's letters often say the same things in different ways).

If you like I can quote all the verses talking about quickening - including the main one that the church says is talking about a "dead human spirit" being quickened, and show how the same Greek words are used in other passages where it's unambiguously talking about the quickening of the dead body.

Wishing you and yours a very blessed Christmas and blessings throughout the New Year!

Thank you. Hope you enjoyed your Christmas (I came back here when it was already passed).

 

[rwb]

Even though in the above statement and without even realizing it you make the distinction between living | being alive - physical life [zao] - and the breath of life [zoe] which sustains it (causes us to remain alive),

You keep trying to force a distinction that is not there. Since the fall mankind possesses natural life within themselves. That's how man is able to reproduce natural/physical life to their offspring. Because Scripture says psychḗ (life) comes through spirit (heart, mind, soul, humankind).

It is the pneûma (ghost, life, spirit, mind) that zōopoiéō (makes alive) the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, are pneûma (ghost, life, spirit, mind), and are zōḗ (life-time).

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

When man has zoe they are physically alive. Zoe comes from záō that also means to live or be lively, active. IOW during our lifetime (zoe) we are alive (zao), through spirit, and as long as we possess breath, we live (zoe) and are zao (lively) until we die.

Matthew 6:25 (KJV) Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

 

[rwb]

you still fail to understand that no living creature possesses the breath of life (spirit) that God gives. The only origin and source of that breath of life [zoe] is still God, and it's still GIVEN by God, and it must continually be given by God in order for it to sustain that physical life [zao].

Now your confusing eternal life that only God can give with natural, mortal life that is reproduced within mankind naturally. To have eternal/perpetual/forever life is to have life through the Spirit of Christ in us, and that does not come naturally to man, but supernaturally when we are born again by grace through faith.