The Popular False Justification and False Sanctification View Today.

[Michiah-Imla]

The scriptures do not support your heretical doctrine of 'sinless perfection.'

Your “scriptures” do not.

The real Bible does! The King James Bible!!

You need to stop deliberately twisting the scriptures.

You need to stop reading twisted translations of the scriptures!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Now what @mailmandan will do next is just contradicting and gainsay with big words and theological “tech” talk. He may dabble a little in Greek grammar ramblings as well.

I guess after @mailmandan read my post he craftily just used the modern corrupt translations that have already been duabed with all of the above. LOL!!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

It's no surprise you were banned from Christian Chat for promoting heresy.

No surprise to me either:

Christ, who told people to sin no more (John 5:14; John 8:11), was also being hunted by religious leaders to ban him from living and breathing (John 5:16).

“And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.” (John 5:16)

[Just a side note: the red text is missing in some modern perverted translations.]

You probably haven’t been banned from that place. Speakers volumes…

Don’t your “red flags” work?

People who enable sin are not banned, while they who preach sinlessness are banned?

No red flags there huh…

The red flag is bathed in sin in the King James Bible!!

You’re blind my friend!

 

[Taken]

Many today falsely teach a form of Justification (Being saved by God’s grace by believing in Jesus as their Savior or the finished work of the cross) in that they believe that this is total removal of the penalty of sin (in regards to even future sin) once for all (Whereby they never need to worry about sin jeopardizing their soul ever again).

Eh, maybe some do.
However Scriptural teaching is clear.

* Hearing the Word of God is Enlightenment.
* Hear the Word of God and God will gift you a measure of faith.
* Hear the Word of God and God will Bless you.
* Believing the Word of God IS a Works.
* Believe the Word of God and God will be with you.

* Stop believing you will be called having fallen from faith.
* Stop believing and God will not be with with.

* Repent for having Not believed and God will Forgive you.
* Confess Heartful Belief and God will Convert you.
* Confession to God of the Lord God, IS a Service.
* Become Converted (according to Gods Order and Way) and God will MAKE you Saved, Quickened and With Him forever.
* A Converted man is Once and Forever Freed from Sin and Kept with God Forever by the Power of God.
* A Converted man IS Separated unto God and Justified by God to be Redeemed by God on the day of Gods choosing.
* No such thing as “future” sin for a Converted man.

Considering ~ A man
* Who hears, Who believes....but that does not Heartfully Confess.
* He has NOT become MADE Converted.
* He can continue to sin.
* He can continually Ask for forgiveness via Gods Advocated Jesus.
* He can HOPE he shall continue to believe.
* IF he Continues to believe to the day of his bodily Death, THEN he shall be saved.

While it is true that we are saved by God’s grace initially and foundationally by faith and not works, that is not the end of the story in God’s plan of salvation for us. First, only past sin is forgiven us.

For the Converted; of course ONLY past sin is forgiven, because future sin is not possible.
For the UnConverted Believer: of course ONLY past sin is forgiven. Future sin must be asked for: via repentance, by, through, Gods Advocate; Jesus.

Second, believers also need to enter the Sanctification Process to live a holy life by the power of God’s Spirit (Whereby they will be fruitful, abstain from sin, and keep themselves unspotted from the world).

Sanctification Process? A modern term?
* Scripture reveals Gods Order and Way to become Converted.
* A Converted man has a process to make his minds thoughts yield to his “new spirit, in his new Heart’s” thoughts.

Many today also falsely say that Sanctification (Living progressively more holy by the inner working of God in them) is not a part of the removal of the penalty of sin, but it is in regard to be saved from the power of sin. But they really don’t believe that they are being saved from the power of sin because they think they will always sin this side of Heaven based on a false interpretation on 1 John 1:8. So they really don’t believe in true Sanctification. They also don’t realize that Sanctification is a part of the removal of the penalty of sin (after we are saved by God’s grace) (See: Romans 8:13).

Not all men choose Conversion. For some it’s a scary thing to make permanent commitment.
We have marriages, loan contracts, business contracts, people routinely give their word of promise AND routinely break their word, and some even wiggle out of harsh consequences.
There is no undoing a contract with God. His power assures the contract (so to speak) shall be met. Men are warned, be diligent and sure before calling on the Lord God in agreement to His offering.

“So you believe in Sinless Perfection for salvation?”

Sinless perfection for salvation...no.
Perfected IN Christ...yes.
Sinless perfection WHEN bodily raised in Glory...yes
Tic Tok ~ Tic Tok ~ Tic Tok

Big Picture. Choose for yourself...or God shall choose for you.
How that works...If you are NOT WITH God...you ARE AGAINST God.
Matt 12:30 ~ Luke 11:23

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Behold this fine specimen of the skillful word play of a scripture twister:

In regards to Romans 6:16, there are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness.

When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation

we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

So you’re invincible from the teaching in Romans 6:16 by believing in the finished work of Christ?

That’s such a load of dung there @mailmandan

You’ve spent too much time on the Once Saved Always Saved farm to notice the smell of the teachings that get spawned by it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

How bout worshipping Christ instead of the one who anointed him? If you reject Jesus teachings to worship and serve Jehovah exclusively, then why would you expect salvation? Mat 4:10

I don't recall a single instance of Jesus refusing to be worshipped.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You are looking at one point in time when a person exercises their faith and yet you are ignoring another point in time of how that faith continues in their life (like involving doing acts of faith or works of faith).

No, I'm not ignoring the element of continuing faith.
I'm rejecting the teaching that the works that continuing faith produces somehow make a person the born again saved person they already are by faith all by itself.

 

[Charlie24]

Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10)

What makes so ridiculous is that they know they sin, but yet pretend they don't!

Self-righteousness written all over it!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I am saying that the apple (fruit) shows that it is an apple tree. Just as works of faith show one’s faith.

I have been saying this. But you're going beyond that and assigning power to the works that faith produces that they do not have. Faith all by itself is the agent through which a person is made a branch in the tree of Christ. Works are simply the expected and obligatory manifestation of the Christ branch that produces it, just as an apple is the expected and obligatory manifestation of the apple branch that produced it. The apple itself adding no effect whatsoever to making the branch a branch of the apple tree.

They are connected, and not separate as you would like to make them.

I'm not disconnecting them. Works are the expected and obligatory outcome of genuine faith. That doesn't mean faith and works are by definition one and the same thing. It means they are connected. That's all.

You say works is not faith.

That's right.
By definition works is one thing, faith another. They are by definition two different things. They are connected, faith producing works, but that does not make them by definition one and the same thing.

James says he will show you his faith by his works. Just as I can show you an apple tree by the type of fruit it makes (i.e. apples).

Yes, works SHOW you have faith. That's all! They have no power to effect a change of nature so as to make you a son of God in line for the inheritance. They can only SHOW that you are a son of God in line to receive the inheritance.

You cannot say that the fruit (applies) of an apple tree is not a part of the tree

Nobody's saying that, lol. What is being contested is your assertion that the fruit of the tree somehow aids in it being an apple tree. Works only have power to reveal you as a son of God, not make you one, or even aid you in becoming one.

Anymore than you can say that works is not a part of the faith. James says that works makes one’s faith perfect in James 2:22. This is not possible unless they had a symbiotic relationship in that they were connected together. You want to disconnect them because you don’t want to see works of faith as a part of the faith.

I'm not disconnecting them. What I am doing is disconnecting the power you assign to works from the effect of becoming a child of God. Faith does that all by itself. Works only have power to SHOW you to be a son of God born again by faith in God's forgiveness.

 

[Charlie24]

There are few things quite erroneous about this statement.

Firstly Adam, Eve, Satan, and some of the Angels sinned. They weren’t perfect?

Secondly why do the scriptures tell us to be perfect now?

Matthew 5:48
2 Corinthians 13:11
Philippians 3:15

This “trapped in sin” doctrine is a by-product of Once Saved Always Saved.

Embraced by all who let sin reign in their mortal bodies. This is unbiblical conduct (Romans 6:12).

Paul never said we would become sinless, he said that sin would not have dominion over us.

In other words, sin will not reign supreme.

Believing you have ceased to sin is being deceived, it breeds self-righteousness.

It's hard to believe that man can say he is sinless when he knows in his heart he isn't!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Paul never said we would become sinless, he said that sin would not have dominion over us.

So, @Charlie24 , explain why you sin if sin no longer has dominion over you?

You sin because you obey the lusts of the flesh. Something that Paul said we USED to do when:

“…in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our way of life in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.” (Ephesians 2:2-3)

So you continue to be a child of disobedience and a child of wrath?

Believing you have ceased to sin is being deceived, it breeds self-righteousness.

@Charlie24 what breeds self-unrighteousness is the question you should occupy your self with.

It's hard to believe that man can say he is sinless when he knows in his heart he isn't!

It’s hard to believe you support sin with a Bible in your hand that preaches against it so severely!

Are you aware, or have you forgotten, of all the wrath that God poured out on his people because they wouldn’t cease from their evil ways???

“So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that are round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken it. When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for their destruction, and which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread: So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.” (Ezekiel 5:15-17)

 

[Charlie24]

So, @Charlie24 , explain why you sin if sin no longer has dominion over you?

You sin because you obey the lusts of the flesh. Something that Paul said we USED to do when:

“…in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our way of life in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.” (Ephesians 2:2-3)

So you continue to be a child of disobedience and a child of wrath?




@Charlie24 what breeds self-unrighteousness is the question you should occupy your self with.



It’s hard to believe you support sin with a Bible in your hand that preaches against it so severely!

Are you aware, or have you forgotten, of all the wrath that God poured out on his people because they wouldn’t cease from their evil ways???

“So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that are round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken it. When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for their destruction, and which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread: So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.” (Ezekiel 5:15-17)

It's for sure we don't have to sin. Christ has set us free from sin, but we are fallen man with a tendency to sin, even though we are saved.

I have said before it is possible to have no known sin in your life, but that certainly does not mean we can cease to sin.

We make mistakes, we can't help that.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

we are fallen man with a tendency to sin

@Charlie24

“…you ought to put off the old man (according to your way of living before) who is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind. And you should put on the new man, who according to God was created in righteousness and true holiness.” (Ephesians 4:22-24)

 

[Michiah-Imla]

it is possible to have no known sin in your life, but that certainly does not mean we can cease to sin

You are not suffering for Christ:

“Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.” (1 Peter 4:1-2)

But you seem to be what this scripture describes:

“Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children” (2 Peter 2:14)

 

[Jim B]

So, @Charlie24 , explain why you sin if sin no longer has dominion over you?

You sin because you obey the lusts of the flesh. Something that Paul said we USED to do when:

“…in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our way of life in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.” (Ephesians 2:2-3)

So you continue to be a child of disobedience and a child of wrath?



@Charlie24 what breeds self-unrighteousness is the question you should occupy your self with.



It’s hard to believe you support sin with a Bible in your hand that preaches against it so severely!

Are you aware, or have you forgotten, of all the wrath that God poured out on his people because they wouldn’t cease from their evil ways???

“So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that are round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken it. When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for their destruction, and which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread: So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.” (Ezekiel 5:15-17)

You're going off the deep end with your response. People, including Christians, sin because we are still living in our natural bodies -- the flesh. There was only one person who never sinned: Jesus Christ. We will continue to sin until we die. However, that is different than promoting sin, which I think is your (false) charge against Charley. Saying that "It’s hard to believe you support sin with a Bible in your hand that preaches against it so severely" shows where you're coming from. A person unintentionally sinning is totally different than "a child of disobedience and a child of wrath".

I wonder if you have ever read this... “Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven." Luke 6:37 (and other places) If so, why don't you practice it?

 

[Charlie24]

You are not suffering for Christ:

“Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.” (1 Peter 4:1-2)

But you seem to be what this scripture describes:

“Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children” (2 Peter 2:14)

How do you know I'm not suffering for Christ?

What about David who committed some of the worst sins known to man, was he one that you point the finger at?

What about Peter when he denied Christ 3 times, and went out and wept bitterly?

We all sin from time to time and if we are saved, we regret it.

So get off your high horse, pretending to be something you aren't!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

There was only one person who never sinned: Jesus Christ.

Your new, born again, man can do this to!

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.” (John 14:12)

We will continue to sin until we die.

“God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:2)

So even if you sin “unintentionally”, does this mean you are partially alive to sin?

Contradicting the scripture?

However, that is different than promoting sin

Well @Charlie24 is not promoting righteousness is he?

Is it righteous to say you will never stop sinning?

Good gracious!

I wonder if you have ever read this... “Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven." Luke 6:37

Have you read this:

“Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye.” (Matthew 7:5)

I have cast the beam out of my eye.

Now I see clearly to try to help you guys with Once Saved Always Saved splinters in your eyes!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

How do you know I'm not suffering for Christ?

Because you are a self admitted sinner still. And watch out!

“In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the Devil” (1 John 3:10)

What about David

David wasn’t saved yet. Christ wasn’t crucified yet. He didn’t hear the gospel until this happened:

“…the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6)

Because:

“David is not ascended into the heavens” (Acts 2:34)

What about Peter when he denied Christ 3 times, and went out and wept bitterly?

Peter wasn’t saved yet either. No resurrection belief, no gospel yet.

 

[Charlie24]

Because you are a self admitted sinner still. And watch out!

“In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the Devil” (1 John 3:10)



David wasn’t saved yet. Christ wasn’t crucified yet. He didn’t hear the gospel until this happened:

“…the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6)

Because:

“David is not ascended into the heavens” (Acts 2:34)



Peter wasn’t saved yet either. No resurrection belief, no gospel yet.

Was Peter saved when Paul called him out in front of the Church for playing the hypocrite with the Gentiles?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Was Peter saved when Paul called him out in front of the Church for playing the hypocrite with the Gentiles?

Peter didn’t commit a sin.

Peter just reverted to Jewish customs for fear of the Jews which came down.

Where in the Bible is it taught that observing the Old Testament customs is a sin?

He merely just laid on the gentiles a greater burden than was necessary.