The Popular False Justification and False Sanctification View Today.

[Charlie24]

Peter didn’t commit a sin.

Peter just reverted to Jewish customs for fear of the Jews which came down.

Where in the Bible is it taught that observing the Old Testament customs is a sin?

He merely just laid on the gentiles a greater burden than was necessary.

Gal. 2:11-14

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"

"Walking not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel" is not a sin?

 

[farouk]

For the Converted; of course ONLY past sin is forgiven, because future sin is not possible.

@Taken
I find 1 John 2.1 rather thought-provoking:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:”

 

[Taken]

@Taken
I find 1 John 2.1 rather thought-provoking:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:”

Yes.
To believe in Jesus is to also believe in God.
To believe in God does not mean to believe in Jesus.
I often wonder how the Jews manage their Tradition of yearly sin forgiveness without a Temple or altar for sin offering of a pure animal.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

"Walking not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel" is not a sin?

It depends on what was done.

Peter’s “Walking not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel” was that he reverted to Jewish customs for fear of the Jews which came down.

And again, Where in the Bible is it taught that observing the Old Testament customs is a sin?

He merely just laid on the gentiles a greater burden than was necessary.

 

[Charlie24]

It depends on what was done.

Peter’s “Walking not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel” was that he reverted to Jewish customs for fear of the Jews which came down.

And again, Where in the Bible is it taught that observing the Old Testament customs is a sin?

He merely just laid on the gentiles a greater burden than was necessary.

Peter was holding on to the Law knowing that Grace had brought the Gentiles into Covenant.

He was abandoning the Cross of Christ resorting to Law, playing the hypocrite not only before man, but also before God.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

He was abandoning the Cross of Christ resorting to Law

That’s quite a leap there.

A foolish leap at that.

Is Once Saved Always Saved that important to you that you must turn an Apostle of the Lord into a hypocritical sinner like you?

 

[Charlie24]

That’s quite a leap there.

A foolish leap at that.

Is Once Saved Always Saved that important to you that you must turn an Apostle of the Lord into a hypocritical sinner like you?

The scripture makes it clear that faith is what saves us, and we must hold on to it to the end.

OSAS is true as long as faith in Christ is held, but if one turns from that faith as did some of the Jews that Paul dealt with, "there remains no more sacrifice." That one and only sacrifice is Jesus Christ, there is no other. With faith in that sacrifice ceasing, so does salvation.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

OSAS is true as long as faith in Christ is held

…And the flesh is crucified.

Paul addresses a sinner in his letter to the Corinthians; that he desired:

“To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” (1 Corinthians 5:5)

If you continue to indulge the desires of the flesh, and don’t destroy it, you will not be saved.

Which is why Paul said:

“Likewise count yourselves also to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.” (Romans 6:11-12)

Being dead is tied to salvation, for:

“For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection”
(Romans 6:5)

And your sin isn’t purged until your old man is dead (Romans 6:6):

“Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.” (Isaiah 22:14)

So:

“Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:11)

but if one turns from that faith as did some of the Jews that Paul dealt with, "there remains no more sacrifice."

The scripture you cite is talking about sin, not turning from the faith:

“For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” (Hebrews 10:26-27)

 

[BarneyFife]

OSAS is true as long as faith in Christ is held, but if one turns from that faith as did some of the Jews that Paul dealt with, "there remains no more sacrifice." That one and only sacrifice is Jesus Christ, there is no other. With faith in that sacrifice ceasing, so does salvation.

This seems quite internally inconsistent. How can a thing be true if it is not true? A person either has the prerogative to secure salvation unconditionally or he does not. Is this not true? If, with salvation, there exists a condition that one must not turn from the faith, then it cannot be unconditional, which is exactly the premise of the eternal security doctrine—once the initial transaction is complete, the benefit is irrevocable.

The 'eternal security' doctrine is a counterfeit of the true biblical teaching of assurance of salvation, plain and simple. No concessions or compromises need be made with error.

 

[Charlie24]

…And the flesh is crucified.

Paul addresses a sinner in his letter to the Corinthians; that he desired:

“To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” (1 Corinthians 5:5)

If you continue to indulge the desires of the flesh, and don’t destroy it, you will not be saved.

Which is why Paul said:

“Likewise count yourselves also to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.” (Romans 6:11-12)

Being dead is tied to salvation, for:

“For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection”
(Romans 6:5)

And your sin isn’t purged until your old man is dead (Romans 6:6):

“Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.” (Isaiah 22:14)

So:

“Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:11)



The scripture you cite is talking about sin, not turning from the faith:

“For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” (Hebrews 10:26-27)

I think we are off topic! I couldn't log in for a while. Haven't been here for a long while, but if I remember correctly, if you go off topic that is what happens, you can't log in for a while. A kind of "think about what you're doing" thing.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not sure.

Look for a new thread on Heb. 10:26-27. This is very important to understand and will help explain some misconceptions on this thread.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

@Charlie24 I have presented many scripture references. Hebrews 10:26 didn’t come up until you alluded to it at post #547

OSAS is true as long as faith in Christ is held, but if one turns from that faith as did some of the Jews that Paul dealt with, "there remains no more sacrifice."

That text is just another arrow through the heart of the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine.

All the scriptures I presented show you to be in error regarding the truth of the gospel.

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24 I have presented many scripture references. Hebrews 10:26 didn’t come up until you alluded to it at post #547



That text is just another arrow through the heart of the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine.

All the scriptures I presented show you to be in error regarding the truth of the gospel.

Well, at least we agree on OSAS!

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24 I have presented many scripture references. Hebrews 10:26 didn’t come up until you alluded to it at post #547



That text is just another arrow through the heart of the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine.

All the scriptures I presented show you to be in error regarding the truth of the gospel.

Since we agree on OSAS, I'll not start the new thread on Heb. 10:26.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Since we agree on OSAS

It’s a paradox.

Be blessed.

 

[Charlie24]

It’s a paradox.

Be blessed.

This all began in post #512 when you said this, "This “trapped in sin” doctrine is a by-product of Once Saved Always Saved."

NO, it's not! We have been set free from sin in the victory by Christ on the Cross.

What you will not accept is that fallen man, even though saved, is still fallen man by nature until the resurrection.

 

[BarneyFife]

I think we are off topic! I couldn't log in for a while. Haven't been here for a long while, but if I remember correctly, if you go off topic that is what happens, you can't log in for a while. A kind of "think about what you're doing" thing.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not sure.

I think you're thinking of another board - lol.

.

 

[Charlie24]

I think you're thinking of another board - lol.

.

Thanks

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Yes. Do you believe that the whole Bible should be taken by faith?
Did not God give us holy instructions to obey Him in the New Testament?
Are not God’s holy instructions a part of the faith?
Yes, or no?

Yes to all of these.
But the point is, obedience to God is not what establishes you as a born again child of God from here forward. Faith in God's forgiveness does that all by itself. The absence of obedience is the absence of faith. We obey because we believe. It is through that believing that one has access to the Spirit of God in salvation and sonship, not through the works of obedience faith produces.

 

[mailmandan]

But the point is, obedience to God is not what establishes you as a born again child of God from here forward. Faith in God's forgiveness does that all by itself. The absence of obedience is the absence of faith. We obey because we believe. It is through that believing that one has access to the Spirit of God in salvation and sonship, not through the works of obedience faith produces.

Amen! Those who teach otherwise are putting the cart before the horse and the end result is works righteousness.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So then a faith that lives itself out does not remain as faith alone.

Correct.
Even the OSAS Reformers taught that:

"We say that justification is effective without works, not that faith is without works. For that faith which lacks fruit is not an efficacious but a reigned faith." Martin Luther

"It is one thing that faith justifies without works; it is another thing that faith exists without works." Martin Luther

"It is therefore faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone:" John Calvin

Is Luther really the originator of "We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone"?

Faith alone that continues on in the life of the believer does not save.

Correct.
As I've just shown, even the Reformers taught this.
Dead faith is fake faith. Dead faith is simply not the kind of faith that justifies apart from works. Because as Paul himself makes abundantly clear, the faith that justifies apart from works is the faith that finds it's expression in the obedience to love God/love others (Galatians 5:6) just as God commands us to do. Obedience doesn't make one's faith able to justify them (make them righteous). Obedience shows one's faith to be genuine and, therefore, able to justify/save them.

Therefore, one needs works of faith added into the equation to show their faith.

Yes. But only to show the justifying quality of that faith, not to give it the quality of being able to justify. The exhortation to pursue works of righteousness is not given to us in order to make faith able to make us righteous, but rather to confirm that we indeed have, and are continuing in, the faith that is able to justify us (make us righteous) and, therefore, ready to stand before Christ in judgment.

No works means they have either chosen to fall away (reject Jesus), or they were deceived the deceitfulness of sin (or laziness or simply refusing to do the work), or they were never born again to begin with.

Or, if you want to avoid the divisive issue of OSAS, you can simply say no works means no saving faith is present to motivate works of righteousness. Even OSAS teaches this. You don't have to entertain the issue of whether or not the 'believer' without works of faith was ever saved to begin with, because it doesn't matter. The person is going to the fiery place either way. And the remedy is the same: Start believing.

Remember, in the parable of the sower, the riches and the cares of this life can choke the Word, etcetera.

Yes. But only when the word of God is choked out altogether from the soil is that land then land that will be burned when Jesus comes back. The comforts and pleasures and cares of this world constantly challenge the growth of the word in the believer's life. Especially in immature Christians. But choked growth doesn't always mean no growth. And it doesn't mean they'll always stay that way. I personally have never considered the 3rd type of soil to be, categorically, the soil of an unsaved person. It may or may not be. The point is the word is being choked out in that person's heart. What it is in the end is what determines the eternal fate of that person (Hebrews 6:8).