The Positional Platform

[ScottAU]

Afishamongmany,

It is impossible to have a discussion with you when you are attempting to hold the discussion exclusively within the confines of your dogma.

The Bible makes a clear distinction between willful presumptuous sin (ie. rebellion) and sin that is committed through ignorance. By ignoring that distinction and attempting to hold a discussion within a framework that ignores such a distinction is but an "opposition of knowledge falsely so called." In other words it is two positions in error coming at loggerheads. Paul warned us to avoid such things.

The Bible is clear, The REBELLION to God must cease BEFORE God will grant mercy. You can dance around that all you like with this strawman and misdirection of "sinless perfectionism" but it is all just vanity and I can see right through it because it is something that comes up all the time when I speak with people.

The bottom line is that the use of 1Joh 1:8 and Rom 7:14-25 as proof texts of "ongoing rebellion" (due to a refusal to make the distinction between sin rooted in rebellion and sin due to an honest misjudgment) in a Christian is an angle which is in complete oppostion to the notion that a CHRISTIAN CAN BE PURE.

I won't play semantic games if I can avoid them and the more I engage people the more aware I become of how it works.

Statements like the following are clear evidence that you are in complete denial of a state of genuine heart purity in a Christian.

Though personally I believe once reborn no-one nor anything (in the eternal perspective) can take eternal life from us.

Thus when you say something like this...

The death of Christ on the cross is our only means of righteousness and justification.

It is within the framework of the PURELY FORENSIC EXCHANGE of Penal Substitition. In other words you view the death of Christ as providing a CLOAK for an ongoing state of iniquity. Due to your belief in this ongoing state of iniquity you are forced to abstain from discussing HEART PURITY and what it actually means.


You make comments like this...

I'm engaging with you Scott to do my bit in trying to squashing the heresy of perfectionism which keeps popping up in your posts. This heresy if taken on board leads to great discouragement and or great hypocrisy in the life of The Lord's people.

In your mind any allusion to HEART PURITY and the CESSATION OF REBELLION is the "heresy of perfectionism." The truth is that you believe in the "heresy of ongoing iniquity in a Christian" hence your appeal to 1Joh 1:8-9 and Rom 7:14-25. If this wasn't the case then you would not object to what I write. Thus while you may claim to speak against antinomianism I bet you never say that the "sin must cease." Rather you'll probably say one "should" not sin. This is what the false teachers do, they preach MORAL MESSAGES all within a framework that a Christian is still a wretch, so as long as there is some sort of "improvement" (ie. rebelling less) then there is nothing to really worry about because "God hasn't finished yet." Thus you have a church system full of sin with people at various stages of growth. Thus an individual who is still addicted to pornography just needs to be sanctified more but can rest secure in his salvation. It is nonsense, anyone who has been redeemed from all iniquity and made pure DOES NOT ENGAGE in rebellion to God to fulfull the lusts of the flesh, rather they are in submission to the Spirit whereby they are empowered to walk in victory over sin.

Going back, Paul is giving an ILLUSTRATION in Rom 7:14-25 of a man who is under the law, in bondage to sin, who is under conviction, who is crying out for deliverance. Paul is not speaking of the present walk of a Christian. For you to apply it to the present walk of a Christian means you believe that Christian's are CARNAL AND SOLD UNDER SIN and thus NEED DELIVERANCE. Therefore you believe that SALVATION leaves one "carnal and sold under sin" still in need of "deliverance." That is a doctrine of devils.

Jesus did not come to save people and leave them in a wretched state. Jesus came to save them and leave in a PURE STATE. Romans 6, 7 and 8 work seamlessly together. Romans 6 speaks of the methodology of HOW, Romans 7 speaks of the WHY, and Romans 7 speaks of the VICTORY. Those who hold to a sin Gospel IGNORE Romans 6, cling to Romans 7, and ignore most of Romans 8.

If one does this...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Then this happens...

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Whereby this has happened...

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Whereby one does this...

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Due to this...

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

To whom we yield ourselves to is evidence as to who we belong to. Just like Jesus said...

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Your doctrine ignores this...

Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Is this "captivity" being "free indeed"?

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.



Also 1Joh 1:8-10 are verses about how one is to INITIALLY approach God seeking to be cleansed. They are not verses teaching that a Christian will always be in a sinful state. Read the whole context...

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Joh 1:8-10 are about HOW to walk in the light. In order to walk in the light as He is in the light (that we be cleansed) we have to approach God with a TRUE HEART.

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

A TRUE HEART means we are HONEST about the transgression we have committed...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

In other words...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

John is not teaching that you will "always be sinning" and that "if you deny this" then "the truth is not in you." That is to twist his words. Nor is John teaching that the life of a Christian is sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent. The sin/repent lifestyle is proof that "godly sorrow working repentance unto salvation" never took place, only an enotional "worldly sorrow" which brings a TEMPORARY change (which is why people fall away after evangelical crusades). If a husband in adultery keeps keeps saying sorry to his wife and then keeps going back to the other woman was he genuinely sorry? NO! He may have regret but not true sorrow. True sorrow would produce a true repentance whereby the adultery STOPS. The methodology of approaching God and the cessation of rebellion is no different.

John said this...

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

He did not say "these things I write unto you, that ye admit your ongoing sinfulness." NO! He wanted his readers joy to be full and to have genuine fellowship (1Jn 1:3) and he was also warning about deceivers (1Jn 2:26) who were teaching that "conduct does not have to match the profession."

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You see Neo-Platonic philosophy and the Gnosticism that was developing at the time of John taught DUALISM where the "deeds done in the body DID NOT stain the soul." Dualism taught that the flesh was intrinsically evil in that it trapped a virtuous soul thus the deeds done in the body were not a necessary indication of the true state of the soul. John was refuting this by teaching that your walk is reflective of your spiritual condition.

What do you believe? Here you are petitioning 1Joh 1:8 and Rom 7:14-25 AGAINST the notion that a Christian is PURE IN HEART.

One more thing, you state this...

First, if by your qualification of “Wilful presumptuous” you mean the “sin unto death” spoken of in 1 John 5:16 then nothing in that passage rules out the possibility that John is talking about Christians. In fact the weight of passage indicates that he is. Though personally I believe once reborn no-one nor anything (in the eternal perspective) can take eternal life from us.

John is writing to those who IDENTIFY themselves as Christian's. Paul does the same thing. Yet such language in no way is supporting the idea that a Christian can sin and not surely die or that their conduct has nothing to do with the outcome of their salvation. The reason I believe one is not to pray for one in willful rebellion is simply that it is an act of their free will and God does not force one to obey Him. Thus what would a prayer to God avail? It is true no-one can take eternal life from you so long as we are ABIDING IN CHRIST. Yet we can forsake an abiding relationship IN Christ by rebelling against God.

Dig deep.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Afishamongmany,

Welcome to Scott's laundry-list method of having a 'discussion'.

Here are some things that might help you understand his teachings in case you aren't already aware. I'm sure he will have something to say about how I am twisting his words (like he always does), but since his ideas are so bizarre and so devoid of the spirit of GOD (and for so many other reasons), this is the best I can do at the moment.

1. He does not believe that man inherited a corrupted nature from Adam (I think this forms the foundational premise of his heresy).
2. Only a person's past sins are forgiven when he repents and believes in Christ (this is based on a flawed reading of Roman's 3:25). Future sins are not included with this gift card.
3. Because man is morally pure by nature, when the slate of past sins is wiped clean at repentance, he has a moral obligation to maintain his state of moral purity in order to remain in Christ. If he sins presumptuously, he has to start all over and hope that GOD will forgive him. I don't know how he handles other types of sins.
4. Those who believe they have a corrupted nature (the old man) are living in a state of iniquity, and have a double mind that causes them to sin.
5. Those who believe in penal substitution (i.e. Christ paid the penalty for our sins, we are imputed with his righteousness) are just trying to cloak their sins so they can continue to live in a state of rebellion, or do the sins they so love to do.

I'm sure there's more, but these are the things that stand out in my mind at the moment.

 

[ScottAU]

My comments in Blue.

Afishamongmany,

Welcome to Scott's laundry-list method of having a 'discussion'.

Here are some things that might help you understand his teachings in case you aren't already aware. I'm sure he will have something to say about how I am twisting his words (like he always does), but since his ideas are so bizarre and so devoid of the spirit of GOD (and for so many other reasons), this is the best I can do at the moment.

1. He does not believe that man inherited a corrupted nature from Adam (I think this forms the foundational premise of his heresy). That's right I don't believe that we inherited a corrupted nature from Adam. That teaching was introduced into Christian orthodoxy by Augustine of Hippo. The patristic era of the Chuch denied such a teaching for they taught free will and that man sinned by choice not by necessity due to a birth nature. Augustine taught that sin was a malady as opposed to a crime. I teach that sin is a crime as opposed to a malady. Augustine taught that God chooses who will be saved APART from any choice made by men, I teach that God will save ANYONE who will yield to God. Thus Augustine taught FATALISM while I teach FREE WILL.
2. Only a person's past sins are forgiven when he repents and believes in Christ (this is based on a flawed reading of Roman's 3:25). Future sins are not included with this gift card. That's right, future sins are not automatically forgiven in advance, I teach... Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. In other words one must come clean before God in repentance and faith BEFORE the blood of Christ can cleanse one of ALL iniquity.
3. Because man is morally pure by nature, when the slate of past sins is wiped clean at repentance, he has a moral obligation to maintain his state of moral purity in order to remain in Christ. If he sins presumptuously, he has to start all over and hope that GOD will forgive him. I don't know how he handles other types of sins. Man is morally neutral by nature for morality is rooted in the exercise of the will, to claim I teach that we are "morally pure" by nature is wrong. We are morally INNOCENT when we are born, neither righteous nor unrighteous . Thus we are all born into the world subject to the passions and desires of the flesh which tempt us to suppress the Light that lighteth all men (Joh 1:9) and thus rebel against that Light. Jesus taught that the condemnation is due to resisting of the Light, not due being born in a flesh body (Joh 3:19-20). Death (spiritual) is a result of "all sinning" (Rom 5:12) not a result of Adam sinning. Paul was alive (spiritually) but was slain via sin taking occasion of the commandment (Rom 7:11) thus Paul was not born dead.
4. Those who believe they have a corrupted nature (the old man) are living in a state of iniquity, and have a double mind that causes them to sin. Those who believe we are "born sinners" easily fall prey to a message that offers a CLOAK for their "sinfulness." Thus genuine HEART PURITY has no place in their doctrine.
5. Those who believe in penal substitution (i.e. Christ paid the penalty for our sins, we are imputed with his righteousness) are just trying to cloak their sins so they can continue to live in a state of rebellion, or do the sins they so love to do. Penal Substitition is historically proven to be a 400 year old doctrine developed by the Reformers whereby they added a judicial aspect to Bishop Anselm's of Cantebury "Satisfaction View." Penal Substitition teaches a FORENSIC LEGAL EXCHANGE as the basis of being reconciled to God while the Bible teaches a HEART CLEANSING VIA THE BLOOD as the basis of being reconciled to God. Thus under Penal Substition the heart remains in a filthy state which is why scriptures like Isa 64:6, Rom 7:14-25 and 1Joh 1:8 are used to prove an ongoing state of iniquity in the life of a Christian.

I'm sure there's more, but these are the things that stand out in my mind at the moment. By all means offer much more as it gives me the opportunity to contend for the truth of heart purity against the lie of ongoing filthiness.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

OK here is my updated list of Scott's beliefs. I will add and refine as needed. If anyone would like to add scriptures that refute these ideas. please feel free to comment. I will add them to the list.;

1. Man does not inherit a corrupted nature from Adam, but is born morally innocent (neither righteous nor unrighteous)
2. Man is not born spiritually dead
3. Sin is an only an act of the will, and has nothing to do with a corrupted nature
4. Free will and an inherited sin nature are mutually exclusive
5. Only a person's past sins are forgiven when he first believes in Christ. There is no surety that one's sins after that point will be forgiven.
6. Righteousness is the exercise of man's will, not Christ
7. One must cleanse one's heart of sin before the blood of Christ can cleanse one of of sin
8. The doctrine of penal substitution (i.e., Christ paid the penalty for our sins, and we are imputed with his righteousness) is a doctrine of demons. Those who believe in penal substitution are merely trying to cloak their sins so as to continue living in a state of rebellion
9. Reconciliation does not occur through the blood covenant that Christ cut with the house of Israel in which man's sins were exchanged for Christ's righteousness, and vice versa

 

[ScottAU]

My comments in Blue.

OK here is my updated list of Scott's beliefs. I will add and refine as needed. If anyone would like to add scriptures that refute these ideas. please feel free to comment. I will add them to the list.;

1. Man does not inherit a corrupted nature from Adam, but is born morally innocent (neither righteous nor unrighteous) I agree 100%
2. Man is not born spiritually dead I agree 100%
3. Sin is an only an act of the will, and has nothing to do with a corrupted nature Not exactly. While sin is an act of the will the act of sinning corrupts the human nature which in turn develops into a "natural state" of sinning. This is what Paul is speaking of in Eph 2:3.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The "were by nature the children of wrath" is a natural disposition to sin which grows through CHOOSING to sin. We are NOT BORN "by nature under the wrath of God." To teach that one is "born already guilty" is to shift the blame for sin off of the individual and to ultimately blame God for making one that way, hence the fatalistic misapplication of Romans 9:20. The word "nature" in the Greek is...

Nature - G5449 - phusis
From G5453; growth (by germination or expansion), that is, (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension a genus or sort; figuratively native disposition, constitution or usage: - ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).

The same word is used by Paul in Romans 2 where it is used in the context of doing good.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

If one is born with an "evil nature" then how can one "by nature" do that which is good? They cannot.

If we look at the Westminster Confession it says this...

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]
Article 6, Westminster Confession of Faith
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

Under this doctrine of being "born evil" due to a "corrupted nature inherited from Adam" human beings are viewed as DISABLED from the virtuous choice and thus are deemed UNABLE to turn to God unless God first offsets the inability by a form of grace. Hence the Calvinist position is "Unconditional Election" whereby salvation is wrought by "Irresistible Grace." The free agency of man and thus the responsibility of man is thrown out the window. These doctrines teach PURE FATALISM whereby man is just a pawn in a cosmic game who simply has to WAIT ON GOD. In otherwords "DO NOTHING" because "GOD DOES IT ALL" hence faith is redefined to mean TRUST ONLY apart from OBEDIENCE.

The reason sin holds people in bondage is due to the "natural disposition to sin" which results from sinning. In other words the human brain becomes HARDWIRED to sin. This is why the crucifrixion of the flesh with its passions and desires in initial repentance is ESSENTIAL for the bodnage to be broken, WE HAVE TO DIE WITH CHRIST. Anything less is a deception and a compromise with sin which leaves the convert in a double-minded state.


4. Free will and an inherited sin nature are mutually exclusive 100% agree. If the cause of sin is an "inherited sin nature" then the free agency of man has NOTHING to do with it. Under the doctrine of an "inherited sin nature" man SINS BY NECESSITY.

Again look at the Reformed position...

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]

That is what they teach n the Reformed Seminaries. Non-reformed seminaries are not much better because they take a double-ended approach where they tend to be more contradictory in trying to teach both free agency and inherited sin. It doesn't work which is why the notion of a "second act of grace" in Wesleyian theology falls apart under scrutiny. Wesleyian theology had to invent fallacious doctrines in order to deal with the notion of being born a sinner. The notion of being born a sinner needs to be thrown on the trash heap of history. It is a deadly teaching.

The Reformers even go on to say...

V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]
Westminster Confession, Chapter 6
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

See how they teach that the corruption remains and therefore salvation MUST be positional. Furthermore...

II. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man;[7] yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part;[8] whence arises a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.[9]
III. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail;[10] yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome;[11] and so, the saints grow in grace,[12] perfecting holiness in the fear of God.[13]
Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 13
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

See how they deny that the heart of a believer is made pure. They have this "corruption of nature" PREVAILING in one who has been SAVED. Thus to them salvation HAS NOTHING to do with truly being set free from sin for they teach that the bondage remains. It is a Satanic masterpiece of deception for it gets people to honestly believe that they CAN SIN AND NOT SURELY DIE. It forces people to believe that God does not LITERALLY save them from sin, that He only CLOAKS them while they remain corrupted.

The deception has fooled millions upon millions of people.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


5. Only a person's past sins are forgiven when he first believes in Christ. There is no surety that one's sins after that point will be forgiven. That's right. To believe that future sins are forgiven in advance is to believe that one has a LICENSE TO SIN. The idea that one can have the attitude of "sin now and repent later" is extremely dangerous because genuine repentance means a GENUINE CHANGE OF MIND. Anyone engaging in rebellion to God obviously does not have a mind in agreement with God, they serve themselves and kick the will of God under the bus of their own selfishness. Genuine repentance is not easy to find and once found to go and rebel once again is very dangerus because of the defilement it produces within. To sin from a position of having KNOWN the truth is to treat the truth with utter contempt and a second repentance is not guaranteed at all.

6. Righteousness is the exercise of man's will, not Christ NO! Righteousnes is DOING what is right via a FAITH THAT WORKS BY LOVE. See how you cannot comprehend what I write, your mind twists it due to the strongholds that have ahold of you. You have eyes but cannot see and ears that cannot hear. Here is what the Bible says about righteousness...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Thus faith establishes the law...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Whereby...

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Read the above verses several times. Righteousness IS NOT forensic. God does not transfer the "track record of Jesus" to your account. God MANIFESTS righteousness THROUGH US when we WALK BY A FAITH THAT WORKS BY LOVE via ABIDING in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

Hence...

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.



7. One must cleanse one's heart of sin before the blood of Christ can cleanse one of of sin. One MUST do this...

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

It is through repentance that the axe is laid to the root of iniquity in the heart hence...

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Ever looked up CLEAR?

Clear - G53 - hagnos
From the same as G40; properly clean, that is, (figuratively) innocent, modest, perfect: - chaste, clean, pure.

Genuine repentance produces a CLEARING OF WRONGDOING whereby we can approach God with a TRUE HEART seeking to be cleansed by the blood. Thus repentance produces SUBMISSION to the will of God, thus it is when we HUMBLE OURSELVES that God RAISES US UP.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

If we don't put off the BODY OF SINS OF THE FLESH by the circumcision of Christ then no quickening can take place. God does not raise up those who are still in rebellion, THEY MUST REPENT.

8. The doctrine of penal substitution (i.e., Christ paid the penalty for our sins, and we are imputed with his righteousness) is a doctrine of demons. Those who believe in penal substitution are merely trying to cloak their sins so as to continue living in a state of rebellion Penal Substititon is a doctrine of demons because it redefines the death of Christ to be a SIN CLOAK for ONGOING INIQUITY. Thus a sinner being purified via the cross is thrown out the widnow. Converts under Penal Substition are deceived into believing that they are ABSTRACTLY PURE whilst they are ACTIVELY DEFILED. It is really pure gnosticism disguised as Christianity.


9. Reconciliation does not occur through the blood covenant that Christ cut with the house of Israel in which man's sins were exchanged for Christ's righteousness, and vice versa. Reconciliation to God is via repentance and faith via the blood of Jesus Christ. Not some forensic legal transaction which leaves one still inwarldly filthy.

The Pharisees erred in seeing their justification in being blood descendents of Abraham and in having the law. Yet they remained INWARDLY DEFILED.

The modern Pharisees of professing Christianity err in seeting their salvation in dogmatic doctrinal teaching. Yet they remain INWARDLY DEFILED.

Same lie new packaging. The Pharisees could not be taught because their hearts were hardened to the truth and it is EXACTLY to same with many religionists who profess Jesus Christ today. They cannot conceive in their wildest imaginations that the church system could be a MASSIVE DECEPTION.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

OK, here is my new list of Scott's beliefs:

1. Man does not inherit a corrupted nature from Adam, but is born morally innocent (neither righteous nor unrighteous)
2. Man is not born spiritually dead
3. Adam did not first inwardly corrupt his nature, and then sin from that corrupted nature, but through an act of his will chose from his innocent nature to sin, which corrupted his nature (seriously folks, I'm not making this up)
4. Free will and an inherited sin nature are mutually exclusive. Man with a corrupted nature cannot choose to not sin.
5. Only a person's past sins are forgiven when he first believes in Christ. There is no surety that one's sins after that point will be forgiven.
6. Man puts off his body of sins himself (the circumcision of Christ) by cleansing his heart of sin. Only then will GOD raise up that man into new life.
7. The doctrine of penal substitution (i.e., Christ paid the penalty for our sins, and we are imputed with his righteousness) is a doctrine of demons.
8. Those who believe in penal substitution are merely trying to cloak their sins so as to continue living in a state of rebellion
9. Reconciliation does not occur through the blood covenant that Christ cut with the house of Israel in which man's sins were exchanged for Christ's righteousness, and vice versa
   

 

[ScottAU]

Clarification in Blue.

OK, here is my new list of Scott's beliefs:

1. Man does not inherit a corrupted nature from Adam, but is born morally innocent (neither righteous nor unrighteous) Amen.
2. Man is not born spiritually dead Amen.
3. Adam did not first inwardly corrupt his nature, and then sin from that corrupted nature, but through an act of his will chose from his innocent nature to sin, which corrupted his nature (seriously folks, I'm not making this up) Outward sin begins with an inward inward intent so I would think that when the intention to eat the forbidden fruit was sure the outward act was just a manifestion of sin which had already occurred in the heart.
4. Free will and an inherited sin nature are mutually exclusive. Man with a corrupted nature cannot choose to not sin. A man with a corrupted nature can choose not to sin. Evil people do good things all time. When a soldier gives his life for his fellow soldier by jumping on the hand grenade is that sin? When a fireman rescues a child from the flames is that sin? Sin is ALWAYS a choice. Yet those who are in bondage to sin cannot overcome sin itself in the flesh hence the need to abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. It is essential we be plugged into God, without the grace of God we are but animals with no direction.
5. Only a person's past sins are forgiven when he first believes in Christ. There is no surety that one's sins after that point will be forgiven. Remember "believe" means to be "faithful" and to "wal according to the will of God." Believe is not a mental assent to some fact whilst one lives in opposition to those facts. James was clear on this when he taught that "even the devils believe" wherefore "faith without deeds is dead." Genuine faith is a believing/trusting state which produced an obedient walk.
6. Man puts off his body of sins himself (the circumcision of Christ) by cleansing his heart of sin. Only then will GOD raise up that man into new life. No man does not put off the body of sins himself. He does it WITH Christ.. The circumcision of Christ is something done WITH CHRIST for it is a dynamic of laying aside self will and yielding to God's will. To teach that man does something all of himself apart from God is error, God is a major factor in the equation for God is the guiding light we are to follow. How can one put off sin apart from God for sin itself is the action of choosing to be in discordance with the instructions of God. James explains it thus... Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
   Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. Thus it is in laying aside NOT DOING and thus taking up DOING that we recieve the engrafted word of God within whereby the righteousness of God is manifest through us.
   
7. The doctrine of penal substitution (i.e., Christ paid the penalty for our sins, and we are imputed with his righteousness) is a doctrine of demons. Amen.
8. Those who believe in penal substitution are merely trying to cloak their sins so as to continue living in a state of rebellion Those who believe in Penal Substitition are usually IGNORANT having never questioned what they believe in light of the BIble and history. They believe this doctrine because they blindly accepted what someone else told them having never truly examined it for themselves.
9. Reconciliation does not occur through the blood covenant that Christ cut with the house of Israel in which man's sins were exchanged for Christ's righteousness, and vice versa Not within a Penal Substitition forensic legal exchange context it doesn't. We do swap our sins for Christ's righteousness in the sense that we go from being "servants of sin" to being "servants of righteousness." We do not swap our sins for Christ's righteousness in the sense of a legal transaction where we still remain in the service of sin, that teaching is a CLOAK for ongoing sin service.
   

Here is a question...

If Jesus was made a sin offering for us (Heb 9:14, 2Cor 5:21) that we planted in the likeness of his death (Rom 6:5) whereby the body of sin is done away that we no longer serve sin (Rom 6:6) wherefore we are raised up with Christ (Eph 2:6) in order to live unto God (Rom 6:10-11, 1Pet 4:1-2) that we be made the righteousness of God in Him (2Cor 5:21) in which we abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) through which the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us as we walk after the Spirit (Rom 8:4) whereby we MANIFEST RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Joh 3:10) for we DO righteousness as He is righteous (1Joh 3:7) then...

Why exactly does one need the "righteousness of Christ" credited to their account?



One more question.

If Romans 4:5 says this...
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

WHERE EXACTLY does the Bible teach that the "righteousness of Christ" is credited to the believers account?


If such a thing as POSITIONAL RIGHTEOUSNESS is not taught in the Bible then why do people believe it?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Why exactly does one need the "righteousness of Christ" credited to their account?

WHERE EXACTLY does the Bible teach that the "righteousness of Christ" is credited to the believers account?

I'll update the list.

1st question: I don't know if 'credited to their account' is an accurate expression. Christ's righteous is imputed to those who believe; it becomes their actual nature and who they are in heaven.

2nd question: The bible teaches throughout that GOD deals with mankind through blood covenants. These are the most solemn, binding relationships on earth. In them, life is exchanged for life; whatever one party has becomes the other's, and vice versa. Essentially, two become one. Jesus made a blood covenant with the 11 disciples with the stated purpose of freedom (remission) from sins. This is the most holy blood covenant that has ever existed. In it, what he has became theirs (righteousness), and what they had became his (sin). In this way GOD could justly judge all sin upon Jesus once for all. This exchange (reconciliation) is what makes man right with GOD. And through faith they received in spirit a new life in heaven that is the righteousness of GOD. This life is received through the circumcision of the heart in which the old man is slain, and the body of flesh is cut away. All who undergo this circumcision through faith participate in the blessings of this blood covenant - freedom from sins and the righteousness of Christ.

 

[ScottAU]

Christ's righteous is imputed to those who believe

Yet the Bible does not teach that anywhere.

Why do you believe that if it is not taught in the Bible? Jesus didn't teach it and no-one else in the Bible taught it either.

The Bible specifically states that God imputes FAITH as righteousness. It says nothing of "Christ's righteousness" being imputed to those who believe.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yet the Bible does not teach that anywhere.
Why do you believe that if it is not taught in the Bible? Jesus didn't teach it and no-one else in the Bible taught it either.
The Bible specifically states that God imputes FAITH as righteousness. It says nothing of "Christ's righteousness" being imputed to those who believe.

Of course it teaches it. You just have to have spiritual eyes and a spiritual heart to see it. An unbelieving heart can disbelieve anything.

Faith is not righteousness, nor is it as righteousness; righteousness is appropriated through faith. One believes into the righteousness of GOD through the faith of GOD.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is imputed into righteousness. Romans 4:5

The bible clearly teaches that GOD imputes righteousness to those who believe; and that Christ is GOD; and that Christ is righteousness. Christ is the righteousness of GOD because the father gave everything that he has to him. What other righteousness could man receive if it wasn't Christ's?

The Father loves the Son and has given all into his hand. John 3:35

 

[ScottAU]

Of course it teaches it. You just have to have spiritual eyes and a spiritual heart to see it. An unbelieving heart can disbelieve anything.

Faith is not righteousness, nor is it as righteousness; righteousness is appropriated through faith. One believes into the righteousness of GOD through the faith of GOD.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is imputed into righteousness. Romans 4:5

The bible clearly teaches that GOD imputes righteousness to those who believe; and that Christ is GOD; and that Christ is righteousness. Christ is the righteousness of GOD because the father gave everything that he has to him. What other righteousness could man receive if it wasn't Christ's?

The Father loves the Son and has given all into his hand. John 3:35

First of all I don't think I have ever said that "faith IS righteousness." What I have said is that that "righteousness if by faith" (Gal 5:6) and that God reckons "faith as righteousness" (Rom 4:5). If you are going to address my comments then address my comments accurately.



There is not a single passage in the entire Bible which teaches that the "righteousness of Christ" is credited to the believer thus you have to use CONJECTURE in trying to imply that Rom 4:5 is teaching that.

Rom 4:5 says this...

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

That verse plainly states that God counts FAITH for righteousness. It doesn't say anything about a forensic transfer of righteousness from one person to another. It says FAITH itself is what God reckons as righteousness. In other words God looks at the heart of an individual and if they have submitted themselves to God and are thus walking according to the measure of light they have been given then God counts that individual as righteous despite the fact they still need to grow in grace and knowledge.

When we look further in that chapter we see this...

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Those who WALK in the STEPS of that FAITH of Abraham. We turn to Hebrews...

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Abraham TRUSTED GOD and therefore OBEYED GOD. That is the FAITH that God counts as righteousness.

Back to Romans 4...

Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

This faith is a full pursuasion of the mind whereby one is in submission to God. That is the kind of faith that God reckons as righteousness.

Notice that none of those scriptures teach this heresy...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IapqqQ45Q4w[/youtube]

Which is why R.C. Sproul uses RHETORIC and NOT SCRIPTURE to teach such nonsense. You are doing exactly what R.C. Sproul does. You are reading a doctrine INTO the scriptures instead of accepting what the scriptures plainly state.

Jesus said this...

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

That statement was made in the context of Jesus teaching that righteousness is rooted WITHIN as opposed to merely an OUTWARD form.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The issue is a HEART issue. Jesus came to redeem us from all iniquity and purify a peculiar people zealous of good works.

We are not made righteous by some heavenly BOOK KEEPING ENTRY which serves as a CLOAK for a defiled state. No! We are literally MADE RIGHTEOUS via abiding in Jesus Christ where the power of GOd is manifested THROUGH US whereby we are made clean.

Again I ask why do you believe this doctrine if it is not taught in the Bible? Jesus didn't teach it and no-one else in the Bible taught it either.

You cannot cite a scriptural verse anywhere and thus all you are left with is...

Of course it teaches it. You just have to have spiritual eyes and a spiritual heart to see it. An unbelieving heart can disbelieve anything.

Again Romans 4:5 plainly states that God counts FAITH for righteousness. It doesn't say anything about a forensic transfer of righteousness from one person to another. It says FAITH itself is what God reckons as righteousness. In other words God looks at the heart of an individual and if they have submitted themselves to God and are thus walking according to the measure of light they have been given then God counts that individual as righteous despite the fact they still need to grow in grace and knowledge.

 

[Netchaplain]

"Christ's righteous is imputed to those who believe."

"Yet the Bible does not teach that anywhere."

Why do you believe that if it is not taught in the Bible? Jesus didn't teach it and no-one else in the Bible taught it either.

The Bible specifically states that God imputes FAITH as righteousness. It says nothing of "Christ's righteousness" being imputed to those who believe.

Not taking sides here but wanted to note the importance of how not only righteousness but holiness, justification and all the godly virtues of Christ (2 Pet 1:3) come to the believer upon receiving salvation at rebirth by imputation (no other way it can come), same as Abraham (Jam 2:23).

It is the life and righteousness of Christ that "is made unto us" (imputed), not made by us and this is the understanding that everything good in the believer's life is vicariously by Christ--through the Spirit.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

First of all I don't think I have ever said that "faith IS righteousness." What I have said is that that "righteousness if by faith" (Gal 5:6) and that God reckons "faith as righteousness" (Rom 4:5). If you are going to address my comments then address my comments accurately.

Please pay better attention. I quoted exactly what you said, i,e,, 'faith as righteousness'. I even italicized as for your sake. And I corrected your error by letting you know that it really means faith into righteousness, not faith as righteousness. Faith is merely a conduit into righteousness. It is not righteousness itself.

That verse plainly states that God counts FAITH for righteousness. It doesn't say anything about a forensic transfer of righteousness from one person to another. It says FAITH itself is what God reckons as righteousness. In other words God looks at the heart of an individual and if they have submitted themselves to God and are thus walking according to the measure of light they have been given then God counts that individual as righteous despite the fact they still need to grow in grace and knowledge.

Without resorting to mistranslations, you can't show me anywhere in scripture the bolded text is true. I think I'm beginning to see that faith to you is a work of law that makes you righteous. That is not what the faith of Christ is at all. Faith is trusting and resting in the promises of GOD that the righteousness of Christ has been imputed to the believer.

Again Romans 4:5 plainly states that God counts FAITH for righteousness. It doesn't say anything about a forensic transfer of righteousness from one person to another. It says FAITH itself is what God reckons as righteousness. In other words God looks at the heart of an individual and if they have submitted themselves to God and are thus walking according to the measure of light they have been given then God counts that individual as righteous despite the fact they still need to grow in grace and knowledge.

You're deluded. You read what you want into the Greek to get the result you want. This is exactly what Romans 4:5 says:

But to the one not working, yet believing upon the one justifying the ungodly, his faith is accounted into righteousness.

Interpreting this verse to say that faith is righteousness is an example of the marginal, sloppy exegesis you do.

Again, as I stated above, I am beginning to see that you treat faith as a work (of law) that makes you righteous.

Wow you don't believe righteousness comes from GOD. You believe it comes from the person.

 

[Netchaplain]

There is not a single passage in the entire Bible which teaches that the "righteousness of Christ" is credited to the believer

The instruction is knowing that the imputation of all godliness dose not apply to the receiving or retaining of salvation, but is included as the effect or result of receiving and retaining of godliness.

The cause of salvation is God's drawing one to the Cross-Work of Christ and our desire to be right with God, regardless the reason, was what the drawing produced, which means this desire for God does not come from within a person--but from without (Holy Spirit regeneration).

It is the Father who draws (John 6:44) and it is the Father who continually "works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13). This is not the life of the Holy Spirit the Father works in the believer, but the life of Christ (Col 3:4)--by His Spirit.

 

[ScottAU]

My comments in blue.

Please pay better attention. I quoted exactly what you said, i,e,, 'faith as righteousness'. I even italicized as for your sake. And I corrected your error by letting you know that it really means faith into righteousness, not faith as righteousness. Faith is merely a conduit into righteousness. It is not righteousness itself. You are straining gnats in order to swallow a camel.

New International Version (©2011)
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
New Living Translation (©2007)
But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.
English Standard Version (©2001)
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.
International Standard Version (©2012)
However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
NET Bible (©2006)
But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But to the one who does not labor, but believes only in The One who justifies sinners, is his faith accounted for righteousness.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
However, when people don't work but believe God, the one who approves ungodly people, their faith is regarded as God's approval.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
American King James Version
But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
American Standard Version
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
Douay-Rheims Bible
But to him that worketh not, yet believeth in him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reputed to justice, according to the purpose of the grace of God.
Darby Bible Translation
but to him who does not work, but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.
English Revised Version
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
Webster's Bible Translation
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Weymouth New Testament
whereas in the case of a man who pleads no actions of his own, but simply believes in Him who declares the ungodly free from guilt, his faith is placed to his credit as righteousness.

Nothing about the "righteousness of Christ" being credited to your account.

Without resorting to mistranslations, you can't show me anywhere in scripture the bolded text is true. I think I'm beginning to see that faith to you is a work of law that makes you righteous. Here is where you attempt to twist my position. Faith is not a work of the law, faith is an ACT OF THE HEART whereby we are in SUBMISSION TO GOD. The law is OUTWARD whilst faith is INWARD. That is not what the faith of Christ is at all. Faith is trusting and resting in the promises of GOD that the righteousness of Christ has been imputed to the believer. You teach faith as "trusting and resting in the promises of God" APART from OBEDIENCE. You never connect FAITH and OBEDIENCE together. Thus Faith to you is not FAITHFULNESS but rather sinply "trust" even if one is unfaithful to God's commandments.

Thus because I connect FAITH and OBEDIENCE you twist that into "faith to you is a work of law that makes you righteous." I have written over and over again that the law saved no-one because the law only serves to address the EXTERNAL MAN and not the heart. Thus righteousness is by FAITH because faith is the ACTIVE DYNAMIC of yielding to God. Thus when we are plugged into God true righteousness is manifested through us. This is why there is no salvation IN sin. There is no disobedience to God in salvation for if one is in disobedience the ACTIVE DYNAMIC of yielding to God is not there.

The proof of that point is your inability to agree wit the fact that the rebellion to God must be FORSAKEN in repentance BEFORE mercy is granted. Repentance to you is a "confession of sinfulness" instead of a "forsaking of rebellion."

Thus you are forced to deny scriptures like this...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Am I wrong here? Do you agree with that scripure or do you deny it?

You dance around these issues with rhetoric in order to avoid these underlying issues but I won't let you get away with it.

You still cannot provude a single scripture teaches that "the righteousness of Christ has been imputed to the believer." Not a single passage anywhere in the Bible.

Even quoting, "But to the one not working, yet believing upon the one justifying the ungodly, his faith is accounted into righteousness" does not support your contention. It. says "faith is accounted into righteousness" NOT "the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to the believer." Thus I can competely agree with that rendering because it is by faith that we are made the righteousness of God in Him. All you are doing is blowing smoke. Your doctrine has no foundation whatsoever hence you have to use deceit and rhetoric in an attempt to substatiate it.

Not only that but you persist in LYING when you say things like this...

Wow you don't believe righteousness comes from GOD. You believe it comes from the person.

When you can scroll up in this very thread and read me emphatically stating...

Thus it is in laying aside NOT DOING and thus taking up DOING that we recieve the engrafted word of God within whereby the righteousness of God is manifest through us.

Why do you persist in doing that? Why do you keep accusing me in various ways of teaching that righteousness "comes from the person" when I so CLEARLY teach that true righteousness ONLY comes from ABIDING in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ whereby the righteousness of God MANIFESTS THROUGH US.







My comments in blue.

The instruction is knowing that the imputation of all godliness dose not apply to the receiving or retaining of salvation, but is included as the effect or result of receiving and retaining of godliness.

The cause of salvation is God's drawing one to the Cross-Work of Christ and our desire to be right with God, regardless the reason, was what the drawing produced, which means this desire for God does not come from within a person--but from without (Holy Spirit regeneration). You have the "desire to be right with God" coming AFTER regeneration. I understand that is the Reformed position due to Total Depravity (Total Inability) whereby Irresistible Grace is needed to offset the inability, thus one is regenerated AND THEN obeys. The problem is that this view is in COMPLETE OPPOSITION to Scripture.

Repent -----------> Conversion ----------------> Refreshing and Forgiveness of Sins
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

You are teaching....

Refreshing -------------> Conversion

Another example...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Old man crucified/body of sin destroyed -------------------> Raised up to newness of life.

Another example...

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Draw near God -----------------> God draws near you.

Didn't the Prodigal Son do what James describes? He forsook his rebellion by leaving the pig pen and going back to the Father. When he was a long way off the Father came out to meet Him, then the Prodigal Son confessed His sin and the Father restored Him. The restoration did not occur IN the pig pen.

You are teaching that the Prodigal Son gets regenerated and restored IN the pig pen and then leaves afterwards as a result of being regenerated.

You have the Gospel in reverse!​

It is the Father who draws (John 6:44) and it is the Father who continually "works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13). This is not the life of the Holy Spirit the Father works in the believer, but the life of Christ (Col 3:4)--by His Spirit. Yes the Father draws us and yes the Father continually works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Afterall Jesus is the light that lightest ALL MEN who come into the world (Joh 1:9) and the grace of God that teaches us has appeared to ALL MEN (Tit 2:11-12) but in order for salvation to take place one must...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

The implanted word cannot be received in meekness if one does not lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness. Hence the Prodigal Son had to leave the pig pen. Sinners MUST repent and forsake their rebellion.

Let me ask you a very simple question NetChaplain...

Does a sinner have to FORSAKE their rebellion to God BEFORE God will forgive them?

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Comments to your long post

The Greek word is eis. It means into, not as. Therefore, faith is accounted into righteousness, not as righteousness. It's really funny how when I try to be precise you accuse me of straining at gnats, but don't apply the same rule to yourself.

Faith is obedience.

Faith is not yielding to GOD; faith is being persuaded by GOD, placing our confidence in GOD, and trusting that he will bring to pass what he says he will do. Yielding to GOD occurs through faith; it is a work of faith; it is not faith itself.

I agree with this verse completely. I just don't agree with your interpretation or application of it.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

There is no righteousness of GOD apart from the righteousness of Christ. If the righteousness of GOD is imputed to us, then that is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. You're really being quite silly about this.

Again, faith for you is a work of the flesh. Doing is works of law. To you, righteousness is a matter of doing, not trusting per your statement below:
Thus it is in laying aside NOT DOING and thus taking up DOING that we recieve the engrafted word of God within whereby the righteousness of God is manifest through us.

You are teaching that the Prodigal Son gets regenerated and restored IN the pig pen and then leaves afterwards as a result of being regenerated.

This is a total misrepresentation. The prodigal son was already a member of the family when he rebelled. A person becomes part of the family of GOD when he is regenerated, so figuratively speaking the prodigal son had already been regenerated. He went into rebellion, repented, and returned to his father. He did not need to be regenerated because he was already part of the family. He just needed to be restored to fellowship with his father.

 

[ScottAU]

This is a total misrepresentation. The prodigal son was already a member of the family when he rebelled. A person becomes part of the family of GOD when he is regenerated, so figuratively speaking the prodigal son had already been regenerated. He went into rebellion, repented, and returned to his father. He did not need to be regenerated because he was already part of the family. He just needed to be restored to fellowship with his father.

There you have it. SALVATION IN SIN.

You are teaching that the Prodigal Son COULD SIN and not surely die because He was in the family of God and thus His rebellion was only related to "fellowship" and not to "salvation,"

Thus your message offers people LIBERTY whilst they remain SLAVES TO CORRUPTION.

An utter denial of...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

You don't believe that verse for you have the wicked already pardoned in advance.


Thus Christian's in your mind are involved in all sorts of filthy activity. What they do does not matter as far as it pertains to inheriting eternal life, so long as they "are in the familty" through "trust." If a "member of the family" lapses back into serial murder, for example, then it is a fellowship issue right?

You believe in a sin gospel.

There is no righteousness of GOD apart from the righteousness of Christ. If the righteousness of GOD is imputed to us, then that is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. You're really being quite silly about this.

It is not silly at all.

Here is what the Westminster Confession of Faith teaches...

I. Those whom God effectually calls, He also freely justifies;[1] not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,[2] they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.[3]

...

V. God does continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified;[14] and although they can never fall from the state of justification,[15] yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.[16]

Westminster Confession of Faith, Ch. 11
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

"Although they can never fall from the state of justification." That is a lie straight from Satan. They might as well say "Once you have the righteousness of Christ credited to you account YOU CAN SIN AND NOT SURELY DIE."

You are teaching EXACTLY the same thing. This doctrine is deceiving multitudes of people and leading them to eternal ruin for they grow complacent about sin and stubbornly refuse to repent. "God has finished with me yet, I'll repent later" is the attitude.

Here is what John Calvin taught...

"23. Hence also it is proved, that it is entirely by the intervention of Christ’s righteousness that we obtain justification before God. This is equivalent to saying that man is not just in himself, but that the righteousness of Christ is communicated to him by imputation, while he is strictly deserving of punishment. Thus vanishes the absurd dogma, that man is justified by faith, inasmuch as it brings him under the influence of the Spirit of God by whom he is rendered righteous. This is so repugnant to the above doctrine that it never can be reconciled with it."

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 5, Ch. 12
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.xii.html

It appears you are in full agreement with John Calvin so it is no wonder that you too find my doctrine "repugnant" and "absurd" for it can never be reconciled with the doctrine that the "righteousness of Christ" is credited to your account.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't follow the Westminster confession of faith or John Calvin.

You keep totally misrepresenting my position. The prodigal son's restoration to his father was dependent on his repentance. If he had not repented he would never have been restored to his father. Those who rebel against Christ and don't repent are lost.

You keep trying to project onto me what you think I believe, and then march right on by all of the very valid points I made in the previous post. That is your modus operandi.

 

[jiggyfly]

I don't follow the Westminster confession of faith or John Calvin.

You keep totally misrepresenting my position. The prodigal son's restoration to his father was dependent on his repentance. If he had not repented he would never have been restored to his father. Those who rebel against Christ and don't repent are lost.

You keep trying to project onto me what you think I believe, and then march right on by all of the very valid points I made in the previous post. That is your modus operandi.

I have witnessed the same thing on this forum, some try to tell me what I believe. :wacko:

 

[ScottAU]

I don't follow the Westminster confession of faith or John Calvin.

You keep totally misrepresenting my position. The prodigal son's restoration to his father was dependent on his repentance. If he had not repented he would never have been restored to his father. Those who rebel against Christ and don't repent are lost.

You keep trying to project onto me what you think I believe, and then march right on by all of the very valid points I made in the previous post. That is your modus operandi.

You may claim not to follow it but you hold to the same foundation.

You clearly subsribe to the "Blessed Exchange" of Martin Luther. John Calvin called it the "imputation of the righteousness of Christ" which is what you call it. Your sin goes to Jesus and His righteousness goes to you via a FORENSIC or POSITIONAL transfer. I mean that is the theme of this entire thread. Salvation IN sin.

You still cannot provide a single passage in scripture which teaches that the "righteousness of Christ" is imputed to the believer. It could be said that the "righteousness of Christ" is "made manifest" through a believer when they "abide in Him." I could agree with that. Yet that is not what you are saying because you view the "righteousness of Christ" as a "cloak for ongoing defilement" because under your doctrine you make allowance for ONGOING REBELLION whilst REMAINING JUSTIFIED thus you have disconnected the "produced fruit" from the "kind of tree."

Your doctrine has a good tree producing good fruit and bad fruit. Your doctrine has a Christian's serving two masters,

Thus strip all the fluff from your doctrine and at its root is the denial of genuine heart purity in a Christian and the preaching of "ye can sin and not surely die" so long as you "trust in the finished work on the cross."




You see in reality anyone who is engaged in immorality cannot possibly have a pure heart. Anyone addicted to some kind of vice is still in bondage to sin. Salvation involves being set free from sin and being made pure within, Your doctrine completely throws those two aspects right our the window and due to this the "Positional Platform" is all that is left.

Thus under this paradigm of yours I must be a heretic because what I teach is in complete contradiction with everything you believe. Here I am preaching that one must forsake their rebellion and yield to God and that it is God that empowers us to walk in victory and here you are arguing in favour of ongoing rebellion and the death of Christ being a cover for it.

The theological system you have bought into is utter foolishness and extremely dangerous.