The Positional Platform

[Episkopos]

I wanted to share this:

"Sinneth not;" not that he (the believer) has no sin in him, or lives without sin, but he does not live in sin, nor give up himself to a vicious course of life; for this would be inconsistent with his dwelling in Christ and enjoying communion with Him." John Gill

The subject concerning the walk of Christ, which the Apostle John was referring to, is "love", which is in the verses before and after verse 6. If these passages intended being sinless, John would be contradicting himself in 1 John 1:8; "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

There is no contradiction in needing to come to Christ in order to abide then in Christ. We all have sinned and come short of the glory of God...so indeed all have sinned...we cannot say that any are without sin. But then we enter into Christ where we cannot sin. We are indeed dead to sin who are alive in Christ!

Have you found Christ to be yet sinful?

 

[Netchaplain]

There is no contradiction in needing to come to Christ in order to abide then in Christ. We all have sinned and come short of the glory of God...so indeed all have sinned...we cannot say that any are without sin. But then we enter into Christ where we cannot sin. We are indeed dead to sin who are alive in Christ!

Have you found Christ to be yet sinful?

I believe 1 John 1:8 would have to be in the aorist tense to avoid contradiction with the remnant of Scripture. It's not a passage that's denoting just the past, but ongoing, because the "old man" is still under crucifixion ("is" being "crucified" - Rom 6:6), but not death. Crucifixion only restrains it from ruling (Rom 6:12, 14) and Paul would not tell this to one who is unsaved, which means the old man is still present; powerless to dominate but alive enough to affect.

It is said the believer is "dead to sin" (Rom 6:2, 11) but nowhere is it said sin is dead to the believer.

 

[Episkopos]

I believe 1 John 1:8 would have to be in the aorist tense to avoid contradiction with the remnant of Scripture. It's not a passage that's denoting just the past, but ongoing, because the "old man" is still under crucifixion ("is" being "crucified" - Rom 6:6), but not death. Crucifixion only restrains it from ruling (Rom 6:12, 14) and Paul would not tell this to one who is unsaved, which means the old man is still present; powerless to dominate but alive enough to affect.

It is said the believer is "dead to sin" (Rom 6:2, 11) but nowhere is it said sin is dead to the believer.

Gal_6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

 

[Netchaplain]

Gal_6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

By the term "world" is meant the unsaved, which consists of the majority of society (hence the term "world") and their ways, which proceed from the sin nature.

"So that he feared not the worst men, and things in it, any more than he would one that was fastened to a cross, or dead; since Christ, by His crucifixion and death, had overcome the world, the prince of it, the men and malice of it, the sin that was in it, and had made him more than a conqueror also." JG

The overcoming of sin, by Christ or the believer, never means the absence of it but just as it's put, the "overcoming" (ruling over it) of it, not the abolition of it.

If the removal of sin from the believer was meant in 1 John 3:5, The Spirit would not need to continually oppose it (Gal 5:17), which He doesn't do in an unbeliever and Paul would not notice the sin nature still in him (Rom 7).

 

[Episkopos]

By the term "world" is meant the unsaved, which consists of the majority of society (hence the term "world") and their ways, which proceed from the sin nature.

"So that he feared not the worst men, and things in it, any more than he would one that was fastened to a cross, or dead; since Christ, by His crucifixion and death, had overcome the world, the prince of it, the men and malice of it, the sin that was in it, and had made him more than a conqueror also." JG

The overcoming of sin, by Christ or the believer, never means the absence of it but just as it's put, the "overcoming" (ruling over it) of it, not the abolition of it.

If the removal of sin from the believer was meant in 1 John 3:5, The Spirit would not need to continually oppose it (Gal 5:17), which He doesn't do in an unbeliever and Paul would not notice the sin nature still in him (Rom 7).

1Jn_2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Gal_5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Rom_6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom_13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

 

[Netchaplain]

1Jn_2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Gal_5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Rom_6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom_13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Gal 5:24: "Have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts: by the flesh is meant, not the natural body to be macerated and afflicted with fastings, watchings, &c. but the corruption of nature, the old man and carnal heart. By "the affections and lusts" are intended, not the natural affections and passions of the soul, and the desires of it; but its vile and inordinate affections, its corrupt inclinations, evil desires, and deceitful lusts; all which are "crucified," "with Christ," by the sacrifice of Christ, that the damning power of them over his people is entirely gone.

And in consequence of this crucifixion of the body of sin, with Christ upon the cross, when He finished and made an end of it, sin, with its passions and lusts, is crucified by the Spirit of God in regeneration and sanctification; as a person fastened to a cross may be alive, though he cannot act and move as before, being under restraints, so the old man, though crucified, and under the restraints of mighty grace, and cannot reign and govern as before, yet is alive, and acts, and operates, and oftentimes has great sway and influence.

Whereas he is deprived of his reigning power, he is said to be crucified: and though this act is ascribed to them that are Christ's, yet not as done by them in their strength, who are not able to grapple with one corruption, but as under the influence of the grace of Christ, and through the power of His Spirit; see Romans 8:13 "Mortification by the Spirit". JG

 

[mjrhealth]

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Says it all

In all His Love

 

[ScottAU]

Positional Salvation is pure heresy!

Why?

Because it disconnects salvation from the true condtion of the heart. Thus one is deemed "saved" whilst remaining a "worker of iniquity."

You'll never find someone who preaches Positional Salvation contending for heart purity. Heart purity is an afterthought which for all practical purposes is thrown completely out the window.


When the Bible teaches that one is "Not Under the Law" but rather in the "Spirit of life in Jesus Christ" the context is in regards to how an individuals conduct is managed.

Being under the law is one who attempts to produce righteousness via the mere observance of rules and regulations.

Abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ produces righteousness because one's will is submitted to the lead of the Spirit. The work of the Spirit through an individual will produce righteousness from a HEART which has been made pure.

Paul wrote thus...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In verse 20 Paul is illustrating the methodology of how he WALKED as a Christian. His will was in submission to that of Christ and thus it was the will of Christ manifesting THROUGH HIM whereby the fruit is true righteousness.

In verse 21 Paul is speaking that if the fruit of righteousness was via the obeservance of rules and regulations then the death of Christ would be in vain. In other words the death of Christ would not have been necessary.

The death of Christ is essential for it is the means that one comes out from under external regulation (law) to partake in internal regulation (grace).

Thus when Paul writes...

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The methodology is in...

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Clearly we see...

DEATH OF OLD MAN (Body of Sin Destroyed) ------------------> BIRTH OF NEW MAN (No more service of sin).



Thus when one comes to Jesus Christ in this fashion...

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The heart is sprinkled from an evil conscience whereby...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Or in other words...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Thus...
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Dead in Sin --------QUICKENED-------------> Newness of Life

Whereby the external regimentation by the LAW is done away IN Christ...

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (Jesus triumphed over temptation, sin and spiritual darkness)
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (we are not to be judged by ourward observance to rules and ritual)
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (the regulation of conduct via rule keeping was a SHADOW of walking according to the Spirit)

Which is why...

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.



Not being under the law has nothing to do with the RIGHTEOUSNESS REQUIREMENTS of the law being done away because Jesus obeyed for you. The false teachers will teach that. The false teachers preach a LAWLESS GOSPEL because they teach that the death of Christ served to REMOVE THE RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS and thus they preach that "grace is a free gift APART from righteous conduct, or in other words one is JUSTIFIED IN SIN. In other words the bottom line of the deception they preach is that YOU CAN ENGAGE IN REBELLION AND NOT SURELY DIE.

Yet the Bible teaches this...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets one free from the law of sin and death. What does this mean?

The law of sin and death is simple. It is SIN AND YOU DIE!. The law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ sets one free from that law because it puts one in a state where they CEASE FROM SIN. In other words an individual who abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ is WALKING according to the Spirit which is the opposite of walking according to the flesh. It is when one is walking according to the flesh that they sin and thus earn the wages of sin which is death.

God has offered all sinners the free gift of eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ. If one forsakes their rebellion to GOd via being broken in godly sorrow and repentance whereby one can then be raised up by the power of God to newness of life to walk according to the will of God then God gives that individual a FRESH START. It is through the blood of Christ that God is willing to forsake all the past rebellion whereby one earned the wage of sin which is death.

The question is WHO IS WILLING to lay aside all filthiness and superfuity of naughtiness and receive with meekness the implanted word which can save their soul?

VERY FEW!

 

[Episkopos]

Positional Salvation is pure heresy!

Why?

Because it disconnects salvation from the true condtion of the heart. Thus one is deemed "saved" whilst remaining a "worker of iniquity."

You'll never find someone who preaches Positional Salvation contending for heart purity. Heart purity is an afterthought which for all practical purposes is thrown completely out the window.


When the Bible teaches that one is "Not Under the Law" but rather in the "Spirit of life in Jesus Christ" the context is in regards to how an individuals conduct is managed.

Being under the law is one who attempts to produce righteousness via the mere observance of rules and regulations.

Abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ produces righteousness because one's will is submitted to the lead of the Spirit. The work of the Spirit through an individual will produce righteousness from a HEART which has been made pure.

Paul wrote thus...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In verse 20 Paul is illustrating the methodology of how he WALKED as a Christian. His will was in submission to that of Christ and thus it was the will of Christ manifesting THROUGH HIM whereby the fruit is true righteousness.

In verse 21 Paul is speaking that if the fruit of righteousness was via the obeservance of rules and regulations then the death of Christ would be in vain. In other words the death of Christ would not have been necessary.

The death of Christ is essential for it is the means that one comes out from under external regulation (law) to partake in internal regulation (grace).

Thus when Paul writes...

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The methodology is in...

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Clearly we see...

DEATH OF OLD MAN (Body of Sin Destroyed) ------------------> BIRTH OF NEW MAN (No more service of sin).



Thus when one comes to Jesus Christ in this fashion...

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The heart is sprinkled from an evil conscience whereby...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Or in other words...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Thus...
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Dead in Sin --------QUICKENED-------------> Newness of Life

Whereby the external regimentation by the LAW is done away IN Christ...

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (Jesus triumphed over temptation, sin and spiritual darkness)
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: (we are not to be judged by ourward observance to rules and ritual)
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (the regulation of conduct via rule keeping was a SHADOW of walking according to the Spirit)

Which is why...

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.



Not being under the law has nothing to do with the RIGHTEOUSNESS REQUIREMENTS of the law being done away because Jesus obeyed for you. The false teachers will teach that. The false teachers preach a LAWLESS GOSPEL because they teach that the death of Christ served to REMOVE THE RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS and thus they preach that "grace is a free gift APART from righteous conduct, or in other words one is JUSTIFIED IN SIN. In other words the bottom line of the deception they preach is that YOU CAN ENGAGE IN REBELLION AND NOT SURELY DIE.

Yet the Bible teaches this...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets one free from the law of sin and death. What does this mean?

The law of sin and death is simple. It is SIN AND YOU DIE!. The law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ sets one free from that law because it puts one in a state where they CEASE FROM SIN. In other words an individual who abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ is WALKING according to the Spirit which is the opposite of walking according to the flesh. It is when one is walking according to the flesh that they sin and thus earn the wages of sin which is death.

God has offered all sinners the free gift of eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ. If one forsakes their rebellion to GOd via being broken in godly sorrow and repentance whereby one can then be raised up by the power of God to newness of life to walk according to the will of God then God gives that individual a FRESH START. It is through the blood of Christ that God is willing to forsake all the past rebellion whereby one earned the wage of sin which is death.

The question is WHO IS WILLING to lay aside all filthiness and superfuity of naughtiness and receive with meekness the implanted word which can save their soul?

VERY FEW!

A most excellent post! Thank you!!!! Rep added!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

ScottAU,

It's really breathtaking to see how clueless you really are. I didn't realize this until now, but you view GOD's grace as being a mulligan; a second chance, or FRESH START, instead of a new life. I think I have this right... to your mind, salvation comes via a heart attitude that is righteous because it willfully determines to not screw up again after GOD gives another chance to get it right (as opposed to salvation being a gift of righteousness through faith, that produces the fruits of righteousness as we rest in Christ's finished work).

 

[ScottAU]

ScottAU,

It's really breathtaking to see how clueless you really are. I didn't realize this until now, but you view GOD's grace as being a mulligan; a second chance, or FRESH START, instead of a new life. I think I have this right... to your mind, salvation comes via a heart attitude that is righteous because it willfully determines to not screw up again after GOD gives another chance to get it right (as opposed to salvation being a gift of righteousness through faith, that produces the fruits of righteousness as we rest in Christ's finished work).

The "fresh start" IS "new life."

I have not stated anywhere that "salvation comes via a heart attitude that it is righteous because it willfully determines to not screw up again..."

Why do you persist in twisting my words into something else? What is the reason for that? Is it that you don't like the plain statements I make and thus have an aversion to actually dealing with them that you have to present something else entirely and address that?

Salvation comes via being BORN AGAIN via the QUICKENING which is the ENERGY OF GOD refreshing our spirit back to life from being dead in our sins.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

See that verse above? Paul clearly indicates that the QUICKENING and GRACE are one and the same thing.

Paul speaks of the same thing here...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Quickened together WITH Him.

Jesus Christ brings us to God.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

We die WITH Christ and we are raised up WITH Christ.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

"IF" we are planted together in the likeness of his death (through repentance and faith) we SHALL also be in the likeness of His resurection.

Hence...

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

"IF" that Spirit dwells in us.


Look at Act 3:19...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Compare to this...

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Read those verses again and think about what is being taught. It is very simple.

Saved by "grace" through "faith" is the...

"through the faith of the operation of God" (Col 2:12)

"hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)" (Eph 2:5)



Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


The gift of God is the quickening which we recieve via abiding in Jesus Christ by faith.

Faith = Faithfulness to God = Obedience = Yielding to God = Walking in the Light

Grace = God's Provision = God's Power = God's Lead = God's Teaching = God's Influence On the Heart = God's Forbearance


Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Faith comes by reflecting on the word of God. Faith comes by diligently seeking God.

Faith is the DYNAMIC WORKING PRINCIPLE by which God's grace is made EFFECTUAL to the saving of the soul.



So you can imply I am clueless, that I teach self righteousness, that I teach trust is self apart from Christ, or that I deny the cross, or that I teach that a human being merely determines to do right, or whatever else you twist my words into. The truth is the truth and it is VERY SIMPLE.

A sinner is to forsake rebellion to God via conviction wrought by the Spirit of God in the world which works a godly sorrow which in turn works the genuine change of mind whereby a willingness to yield to God is produced. It is in yielding to God that we are made alive because we are no longer in resistance to the work God wants to perform in our hearts.

God will not perform a saving work in anyone who persists in their rebellion no matter what sort of POSITIONAL NOTION they hold. Those who persist in rebellion and thus refuse to be DOERS of the word are simply self deceived.






How is salvation preached in the church system? It has NOTHING to do with the quickening.

They preach a perverted view of the cross whereby Jesus was a WRATH ABSORBER and that as long as you TRUST in the "special arrangement" you are POSITIONALLY SAVED. They then disconnect MANIFEST CONDUCT from salvation because salvation is PURELY FORENSIC. Thus the "saved person" can be ENGAGED IN REBELLION and yet "claim to be saved."

The continuation of sin is not viewed a salvation issue but rather a sanctification issue. Thus the lie of "ye can sin and not surely die" is cloaked by the perversion of Penal Substitution.

In the Bible sanctification is "growing more and more" (in knowledge and understanding). Sanctificaiton IS NOT sinning less and less or rebelling less and less. The rebellion CEASES in repentance or it never will.

When Paul is correcting the churches in regards to unrighteousness he is warning them that the walk MUST MATCH the TALK. Thus he warns the Corinthians...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Oh but so many are deceived.

You see the WALK MUST MATCH THE TALK.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Not washed, sanctified and justified to go and be filthy. Washed, sanctified and justified to walk in the light according to the leading of the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Paul even warned the Ephesians about doing evil.

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Eph 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Hence...

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
1Jn 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

So very few people who profess Jesus as Lord actually believe the Bible. Instead they believe the doctrines of those who TWIST the Bible to excuse an ongoing state of rebellion.

The children of God are manifest to the world by their DEEDS. They WALK THE WALK and TALK THE TALK.

Don't be deceived.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Why do you persist in twisting my words into something else? What is the reason for that? Is it that you don't like the plain statements I make and thus have an aversion to actually dealing with them that you have to present something else entirely and address that?

If I'm 'twisting' your words it's because either you are not able to explain your doctrine clearly and adequately, or your doctrine is incoherent. I more than strongly suspect the latter is the only reason. You make plain statements, but they don't fit together except in your mind, and a few others who are as confused as you are. I'm simply trying to understand in my mind fully what you are saying. Then you predictably project the inadequacy of your beliefs and doctrine onto those who reject them by implying they are rebellious and living in sin. Your constant badgering that others must stop sinning reminds me of a preacher who preaches against adultery every Sunday, yet is meanwhile sleeping with a member of the congregation.

God will not perform a saving work in anyone who persists in their rebellion no matter what sort of POSITIONAL NOTION they hold. Those who persist in rebellion and thus refuse to be DOERS of the word are simply self deceived.

This is true. However, the fact exists that there is a 'positional platform' upon which the believer walks. That position is due the operation of GOD that cannot be undone - circumcision. All of the Israelites were saved out of Egypt in their sins, but those who didn't believe were afterwards destroyed. It is the same with us because their escape and walk are merely a shadow pointing to our salvation and walk in Christ.

How is salvation preached in the church system? It has NOTHING to do with the quickening.

I suggest you learn to make a distinction between those who follow the dead church system from those of us who do not follow its say-and-do-not example. But neither do we believe your doctrine (even though many things you do say are perceptive and right).

They preach a perverted view of the cross whereby Jesus was a WRATH ABSORBER and that as long as you TRUST in the "special arrangement" you are POSITIONALLY SAVED. They then disconnect MANIFEST CONDUCT from salvation because salvation is PURELY FORENSIC. Thus the "saved person" can be ENGAGED IN REBELLION and yet "claim to be saved."

The continuation of sin is not viewed a salvation issue but rather a sanctification issue. Thus the lie of "ye can sin and not surely die" is cloaked by the perversion of Penal Substitution.

In the Bible sanctification is "growing more and more" (in knowledge and understanding). Sanctificaiton IS NOT sinning less and less or rebelling less and less. The rebellion CEASES in repentance or it never will.

You simply don't understand how salvation works. We are positionally saved through the operation of GOD, which cannot be undone (I repeat again: study and learn the meaning of Passover and unleavened bread). That position is maintained through the obedience of faith. People can lose this position if they deny the lord and abandon sanctification. Sanctification is holiness; without holiness no man will see the lord. And sanctification is ongoing cleansing from the defilement of the world. Sanctification is not growth; it produces growth.

Jesus 'absorbing' your wrath is the only salvation you will ever find. This is the grace of GOD. In his forbearance he passes over the justice due us; and gives us gifts and grace to grow in the righteousness of Christ in order to produce the fruits of righteousness that he desires. A sinful being (in nature, not action) living in the faith of the son of GOD is not living in sin as you imply.

 

[Episkopos]

The "fresh start" IS "new life."

I have not stated anywhere that "salvation comes via a heart attitude that it is righteous because it willfully determines to not screw up again..."

Why do you persist in twisting my words into something else? What is the reason for that? Is it that you don't like the plain statements I make and thus have an aversion to actually dealing with them that you have to present something else entirely and address that?

Salvation comes via being BORN AGAIN via the QUICKENING which is the ENERGY OF GOD refreshing our spirit back to life from being dead in our sins.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

See that verse above? Paul clearly indicates that the QUICKENING and GRACE are one and the same thing.

Paul speaks of the same thing here...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Quickened together WITH Him.

Jesus Christ brings us to God.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

We die WITH Christ and we are raised up WITH Christ.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

"IF" we are planted together in the likeness of his death (through repentance and faith) we SHALL also be in the likeness of His resurection.

Hence...

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

"IF" that Spirit dwells in us.


Look at Act 3:19...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Compare to this...

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Read those verses again and think about what is being taught. It is very simple.

Saved by "grace" through "faith" is the...

"through the faith of the operation of God" (Col 2:12)

"hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)" (Eph 2:5)



Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


The gift of God is the quickening which we recieve via abiding in Jesus Christ by faith.

Faith = Faithfulness to God = Obedience = Yielding to God = Walking in the Light

Grace = God's Provision = God's Power = God's Lead = God's Teaching = God's Influence On the Heart = God's Forbearance


Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Faith comes by reflecting on the word of God. Faith comes by diligently seeking God.

Faith is the DYNAMIC WORKING PRINCIPLE by which God's grace is made EFFECTUAL to the saving of the soul.



So you can imply I am clueless, that I teach self righteousness, that I teach trust is self apart from Christ, or that I deny the cross, or that I teach that a human being merely determines to do right, or whatever else you twist my words into. The truth is the truth and it is VERY SIMPLE.

A sinner is to forsake rebellion to God via conviction wrought by the Spirit of God in the world which works a godly sorrow which in turn works the genuine change of mind whereby a willingness to yield to God is produced. It is in yielding to God that we are made alive because we are no longer in resistance to the work God wants to perform in our hearts.

God will not perform a saving work in anyone who persists in their rebellion no matter what sort of POSITIONAL NOTION they hold. Those who persist in rebellion and thus refuse to be DOERS of the word are simply self deceived.






How is salvation preached in the church system? It has NOTHING to do with the quickening.

They preach a perverted view of the cross whereby Jesus was a WRATH ABSORBER and that as long as you TRUST in the "special arrangement" you are POSITIONALLY SAVED. They then disconnect MANIFEST CONDUCT from salvation because salvation is PURELY FORENSIC. Thus the "saved person" can be ENGAGED IN REBELLION and yet "claim to be saved."

The continuation of sin is not viewed a salvation issue but rather a sanctification issue. Thus the lie of "ye can sin and not surely die" is cloaked by the perversion of Penal Substitution.

In the Bible sanctification is "growing more and more" (in knowledge and understanding). Sanctificaiton IS NOT sinning less and less or rebelling less and less. The rebellion CEASES in repentance or it never will.

When Paul is correcting the churches in regards to unrighteousness he is warning them that the walk MUST MATCH the TALK. Thus he warns the Corinthians...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Oh but so many are deceived.

You see the WALK MUST MATCH THE TALK.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Not washed, sanctified and justified to go and be filthy. Washed, sanctified and justified to walk in the light according to the leading of the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Paul even warned the Ephesians about doing evil.

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Eph 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Hence...

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
1Jn 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

So very few people who profess Jesus as Lord actually believe the Bible. Instead they believe the doctrines of those who TWIST the Bible to excuse an ongoing state of rebellion.

The children of God are manifest to the world by their DEEDS. They WALK THE WALK and TALK THE TALK.

Don't be deceived.

Another excellent treatise!

 

[ScottAU]

ChristRoseFromTheDead,

What I say is very clear.

1. The rebellion to God must stop in repentance. This means that the known sins of the flesh CEASE once and for all. For example there is no such thing as a Christian who engages in ongoing murder, fornication, pornography watching, lying, cheating, stealing, hate, malice, theft etc.

2. The doctrine of Penal Substitution is only 400 years old and originated with the Protestant Reformers when they added a penal aspect to Anselm's "Satisfaction Model." This doctrine removes the necessity of heart purity being produced via the cross because the cross is merely viewed as a legal transaction and nothing more. Under Penal Substition the aspect of "us dying with Christ" whereby we "die to sin" and thus come out from the "service of sin" is COMPLETELY REMOVED from the Gospel.

3. Abiding in Jesus Christ result in HEART PURITY. Faith purifies the heart (Act 15:9), Obedience purifies the heart (1Pet 1:22).

4. Salvation has TWO aspects.

(a) That of being saved from the condemnation of sin (past sins forgiven).
( B) Saved from the bondage of sin (whereby one is set free from that which beings condemnation).

note:- In other words the blood of Christ IS NOT a cloak for an ongoing rebellious state but rather a PURGING of the defilement wrought by past rebellion. The blood of Christ is that which one approaches God seeking mercy for PAST transgression. The blood of Christ cleanses as opposed to simply covering. Whilst it may said to cover sins, it is in the context of sins committed in the past which one has repented of, not ongoing rebellion. The Bible clearly teaches that there is no sacrifice for willful ongoing sin and to treat it as such is to treat the blood with contempt (Heb 10:26-29).

The above seems pretty clear to me and the above is what you should address DIRECTLY if you have an issue with it. Don't dance around with FICTIONS wrought in your mind like "Christ did not need to die etc." which you attribute to my position. Take a direct quote from me and address SPECIFICALLY that quote.

Now let's look DIRECTLY at some of your comments...

...However, the fact exists that there is a 'positional platform' upon which the believer walks. That position is due the operation of GOD that cannot be undone - circumcision. All of the Israelites were saved out of Egypt in their sins, but those who didn't believe were afterwards destroyed. It is the same with us because their escape and walk are merely a shadow pointing to our salvation and walk in Christ.

So what are you saying here? Are you saying that a "Christian" can sit down and watch pornography and remain in a justified state before God? Is that what you mean that this "position cannot be undone"?

What exactly is this "positional platform" which "cannot be undone"?

Can a Christian, in your estimation, be engaged sins such as fornication, idolatry, adultery, stealing, coverting, drunkeness, reviling, or extortion and be in a justified state before God at the very same time?

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

I suggest you learn to make a distinction between those who follow the dead church system from those of us who do not follow its say-and-do-not example. But neither do we believe your doctrine (even though many things you do say are perceptive and right).

When I refer to the "church system" it is a general statement in reference to what is taught in MOST church congregations. Most church congregations clearly teach that one can be actively engaged in rebellion to God and be in a justified state. They treat the rebellion as an issue of sanctification which they separate from sanctification. In other words their definition of salvation does not include "being set free from the bondage of sin." If your doctrine supports the notion that "one can sin and not surely die" (ie. one can sin and remain in a justified state) then I would include you in that "church system of error" if not then I would not include you. I am pretty clear on such things.

If one speaks against bank robbery then those who are actively robbing banks will probably find the speech uncomfortable. Those who are not will not.

Also what I teach is not "my doctrine" for it is what the Bible teaches. The doctrine of Christ is according to godliness. Godliness and sinfulness do not mix. Light and darkness do not mix. One either serves God or they do not. There is no mixing the service of sin with the service of God. Those who teach that it does mix are in error and know not the truth.

You simply don't understand how salvation works. We are positionally saved through the operation of GOD, which cannot be undone (I repeat again: study and learn the meaning of Passover and unleavened bread). That position is maintained through the obedience of faith. People can lose this position if they deny the lord and abandon sanctification. Sanctification is holiness; without holiness no man will see the lord. And sanctification is ongoing cleansing from the defilement of the world. Sanctification is not growth; it produces growth.

Where does hte Bible teach that one is "positionally saved throught he operation of God"?

The Bible says this...

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Do you really think that the Quickening is positional? You really think it is some "status" that is accounted to you whilst in reality you are something else entirely?

When the Bible teaches that "God reckons faith as righteousness" it is within the context of this...

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

In other words God overlooks the previous transgression and only looks at the present faith. A faith that works by love (Gal 5:6) whereby there is no guile within the spirit (Psalm 32:2).

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

If guile still remains then there is no genuine faith. Guile and faithfulness are opposites.

The growth of a Christian is in the context of this...

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

Sanctification is not "less and less iniquity." Sanctification is growing more and more in GRACE and KNOWLEDGE. In other words when we come to Christ via repentance and faith we don't know much but we have been made clean by the blood. We are no longer ungodly rebels who resist the implanted word, rather we have forsaken all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and thus we can RECIEVE WITH MEEKNESS the implanted word which saves our souls. We are teachable.

It is those who have obediently submitted themselves to the will of God that are teachable, not those who remain in rebellion who persist in doing evil.

When you say something like this...

That position is maintained through the obedience of faith. People can lose this position if they deny the lord and abandon sanctification. Sanctification is holiness; without holiness no man will see the lord. And sanctification is ongoing cleansing from the defilement of the world. Sanctification is not growth; it produces growth.

Are you implying that one can engage in an known act of immorality and remain "positionally justified"? For example can a Christian be "addicted to pornography" and thus "enagaged in pornography viewing" and be "positionally saved"? Answer that question directly please for it really gets to the root of the matter.

A sinful being (in nature, not action) living in the faith of the son of GOD is not living in sin as you imply.

Those who abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ ARE NOT "sinful beings." They are righteous!


Thank you.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Item 1: the rebellion of the flesh never stops as long as we live in this flesh. The flesh is rebellious by nature, and cannot please GOD. That is why we must wrestle with it every day, to subdue it so that the spirit may abide unhindered and thus produce fruit.

Item 2: Satan's lie

Item 3: True

Item 4: More satanic lies. The blood is a covering that causes the wrath of GOD to pass over the penalties rightfully due us because the blood is the proof that that wrath was executed on Jesus on our behalf.

Your posts are much too long to navigate in order to respond the way I would like too, so...

Regarding your positional question(s): Yes, a person can do the things you mentioned and still be a member of the family of GOD. However, that person will be disciplined by the lord; and if he continues without repentance, will at some point be cut off. If he is not disciplined, then he was never the lord's in the first place. The prodigal son who rebelled against his father did not cease to be a member of his family (positional), but he did suffer the consequences of his sin (disciplined). When he repented, he was restored. If he hadn't repented, he never would have been restored.

Regarding the operation of GOD: it is absolutely positional. The body of flesh is cut away in the circumcision of the heart. That operation cannot be undone. One who has been baptized into Christ has become a member of the body of believers bound through covenant to GOD. If a believer is obedient and produces fruit, he remains in the body; if no fruit is produced, he is broken off as a dead branch and cut off from GOD. GOD is faithful to his covenant, which you do not understand. You think that only a person's sins before repentance are forgiven; when in reality the penalty of sin before the cross (eternal death) is now being passed over (until the very end) for all those who put their trust in GOD's mercy and forbearance through the blood of the lamb. Your error is due to a complete misinterpretation of Romans 3:25.

 

[ScottAU]

ChristRoseFromTheDead,


You are wrong.

you say...

Item 1: the rebellion of the flesh never stops as long as we live in this flesh. The flesh is rebellious by nature, and cannot please GOD. That is why we must wrestle with it every day, to subdue it so that the spirit may abide unhindered and thus produce fruit.

Flesh is not rebellious. The flesh is just the meat on our bones, our physical bodies.

Jesus came in the flesh and was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Temptation is common to man.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

The passions and desires of flesh are NATURAL not rebellious. Rebellion is rooted in the exercise of the will when one CHOOSES to gratify the flesh in discordance with the will of God.

Thus the Bible teaches...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Remember Jesus came in the flesh. it is a cop out to blame the flesh for sin and then claim that because one is in the flesh one will always be rebellious. It is a lie from the pit of hell.

The flesh of a Christian has been subjugated to the leading of the Spirit thus...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

HAVE CRUCIFIED the flesh with the affections and lusts. In other words a Christian is no longer ruled by their passions like a brute beast. Instead of walking according to the flesh they walk according to the Spirit.

Look at what Paul writes...

1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

Sinners walk according to the lust of concupiscence or in other words they YIELD to evil desire.

A Christian walks in holiness with the lusts of the flesh crucified and thus YIELD NOT to evil desire.

This is why John writes...

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

When Paul writes...

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The context is of those who walk ACCORDING to carnal desire like animals. It has nothing to do with simply being in a flesh body. Jesus Christ was in the flesh but did not live according to the flesh.

Temptation does not stop whilst we are in our natural bodies but temptation is not sin nor is it a sin nature. A sin nature is a predisposition to sin that develops from the long practiced habit of sinning.

"Original Sin" or being "Born a Sinner" is a doctrine which Augustine of Hippo brought into Christian orthodoxy in the Fourth Century. This teaching can clearly be traced to his writings and was not accepted as orthodox before Augustine. Augustine taught FATALISM in that human being sinned by necessity rather than choice. The early church taught the opposite, they taught that human being sinned by choice and were thus completely responsible for their own predicament,

In reponse to my claim that Penal Substitution is a 400 year old doctrine invented by the Protestant Reformers you state...

Item 2: Satan's lie

Says who? Says you?

On what authority?

I have clearly documented the origin as well as the fallacies of the Penal Model and you know it yet simply blow it off and pretend the issues don't exist.

Your problem is you ignore the uncomfortable elephant in the room.

Here is a cut and paste of something I wrote previously...

1. Under Penal Substitution God does not forgive sin. Sin is instead transferred to an innocent and they are punished instead. In other words an innocent in punished in order to excuse the guilty. This defies justice, not to mention that "sin" and "virtue" are moral and are not transferrable substances.

2. Penal Substitution is a doctrine which was birthed out of the Protestant Reformation when certain Reformers added a Judicial Aspect to the Anselmian Satisfaction Model of the Atonement. The doctrine was never taught before this time and church history bears this out. Some Reformers attempt to quote some patristic writers who use the term "substitution" but if one is to read those passages there is clearly no connection whatsoever with the "wrath of God being poured out on Jesus." It most definitely can be said that the death of Christ was a substitute by which a sinner can be redeemed instead of remaining under the wrath of God, yet that is a far cry to what the doctrine of Penal Substitution teaches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_substitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anselm_of_Canterbury
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_theory_of_atonement

3. The penalty for sin is not being crucified on a cross by men. The wages of sin is death, both spiritual and the second death (being cast into the Lake of Fire). Jesus did not die spiritually and Jesus was not cast into the Lake of Fire.

4. If Jesus literally bore the penalty due the sinner and thus satisifed the wrath of God then it would clearly mean that the atonement is Limited in that Jesus died only for those who would be saved. If the Atonement is Universal in application then that would mean that the penalty of sin was satisifed on behalf of all sinners and thus could not be due again. Therefore under Penal Substitution the Atonement is either limited in scope or universal salvation is true.

Therefore it is a logical necessity that anyone who holds to the Penal Substitution view of the atonement must consistently hold to the view that Jesus did not die for all men lest universalism be true.

5. Penal Substitution logically concludes that salvation is purely forensic and that unconditional eternal security is true.

Penal Substitution serves to redefine salvation as a mere book-keeping entry where the problem between God and man is rectified through a legal transaction as opposed to repentance and faith whereby the actual motivation for rebellion is dealt with once and for all. Due to the "penalty being paid" under Penal Substitution it cannot be "made due again" thus if it has been paid for on your behalf then there is no sin you can do which would forfeit your right standing before God which means you now have a license to sin. Many on these forums believe this very tenet and while they deny that they have a license to sin and will this say you "should" not sin, they simply cannot say you "cannot" sin, because in their minds salvation is merely forensic in nature and is totally disconnected from deeds.

6. Penal Substitution completely negates the release from the bondage of sin. Under Penal Substitution salvation is merely "being set free from condemnation" as opposed to "being set free from condemnation and bondage." Penal Substitution gives people a false assurance of salvation whilst they remain in bondage to their sins. This is why those beholden to this error take so much offense to the message of "go and sin no more" because in their minds "going and sinning no more" has NOTHING to do with salvation. To imply that "going and sinning no more" is related to "being saved" is a direct attack upon their assurance of salvation.

To imply that a cessation of sin must result from a genuine repentance is a direct attack on the premise of a salvation based on an abstract judicial exchange. This is why Penal Substitution theology is so dangerous for it innoculates the mind against the truth of Biblical repentance and Biblical faith having replaced them with "abstract and passive notions."

7. If the sins of all men were literally transferred to the account of Jesus (if He bore the guilt) then He would not have been without spot. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus offered Himself without spot to God (Heb 9:14). Yet Penal Substitution teaches that Jesus offered Himself up "with our spots." If Penal Substitution is true then Jesus was spotted with sin when He offered Himself. This view is probably the reason why the translators of the King James Bible concluded with "He was made sin" in 2Cor 5:21 as opposed to "sin offering" which would be more in line with the Septuagint

I also wrote about it here...

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/56891-blood-christ-ransom-not-penal-substitution.html

Information on various views of the atonement.

Early Church Views (many of these views are really observations on different aspects of the death and resurrection of Christ and thus do not contradict one another)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christus_Victor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransom_theory_of_atonement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory_of_atonement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_influence_theory_of_atonement (Moral Influence Theory is also often taught in synchronicity with the Governmental View and sometimes with the Penal Substitution View)

Anselmian (Anselm of Cantebury 11th Century)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_theory_of_atonement

Arminian/Finney (1600's)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governmental_theory_of_atonement

Reformation (1600's)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_substitution

The doctrine in regards to the death of Christ promoted by the Protestant Reformers is in error.


You also stated in response to my claim that salvation has two aspects, 1. Having the conscience cleansed of the defilement wrought by past transgression, 2. Release from the bondage of sin, with...

Item 4: More satanic lies. The blood is a covering that causes the wrath of GOD to pass over the penalties rightfully due us because the blood is the proof that that wrath was executed on Jesus on our behalf.

Where does the Bible teach that the "blood is proof that the wrath was executed on Jesus on our behalf"? You won't find that taught anywhere in the Bible.

Jesus bore our sins in a figurative sense in that he suffered on our behalf that THROUGH Him we may be reconciled to God via His blood. His death had NOTHING to do with the wrath of God being satisfied. If the wrath of God was satisfied then it would mean that the wrath of God could no longer abide upon sinners unless you believe Jesus only died for the elect and not those who will be lost. See the kind of problems the Penal Model creates?

Paul writes this...

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

How does the wrath of God come upon the children of disobedience if Jesus satisfied that wrath? You would have to claim that Jesus didn't die for everyone.

Penal Substitution is no only unbiblical it is also logically absurd. People only believe it because it "tickles the ears" and also many have not really examined it. Most people simply blindly believe what they have been taught because it sounded good.

Penal Substitition is an INIQUITY CLOAK.

The death of Christ PURIFIES sinners.


You next response gets the root of your error.

Regarding your positional question(s): Yes, a person can do the things you mentioned and still be a member of the family of GOD. However, that person will be disciplined by the lord; and if he continues without repentance, will at some point be cut off. If he is not disciplined, then he was never the lord's in the first place. The prodigal son who rebelled against his father did not cease to be a member of his family (positional), but he did suffer the consequences of his sin (disciplined). When he repented, he was restored. If he hadn't repented, he never would have been restored.

Basically you believe that one who professes Jesus as Lord CAN SIN AND NOT SURELY DIE.

See how your doctrine forces you to make an allowance for ongoing rebellion to God and remain in a state of justification. That is Satan's message.

The Prodigal Son was not in a justified state in the pig pen, he had to FORSAKE the pig pen BEFORE the Father would restore him.

This "positional salvation" you believe is pure nonsense. It serves to give comfort to sinners in their rebellion that they can be saved IN their rebellion. By teaching this doctrine you are closing the door to true reconciliation via repentance and faith through the blood of Jesus Christ.

The Prodigal Son LEFT the pig pen and Jesus used that parable as an example of REPENTANCE. God's mercy is conditional...

Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

The Prodigal Son did not merely confess his sinfulness whilst remaining in the pig pen. He forsook his rebellion and sought out his Father.

That pattern is taught throughout the Bible and here is but one example...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

"LET HIM RETURN UNTO THE LORD."

Positional Salvation denies "let him return unto the Lord" because it has God "abundantly pardoning" without one having to "return unto the Lord."

Jesus also used Nineveh as an example of repentance (Mat 12:41) and in Jonah 3 we read this...

Jon 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

You write...

Regarding the operation of GOD: it is absolutely positional.

Yet you avoid quoting the verse where it alludes to the QUICKENING...

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Operation in the Greek means ENERGY.

Operation -G1753 - energeia
From G1756; efficiency (“energy”): - operation, strong, (effectual) working.

You are claiming that the ENERGY OF GOD whereby we are QUICKENED is PURELY POSITIONAL. That stance is a clear denial of the power of God for you have the energy of God as purely a legal transaction whereby any effect upon the heart has been removed. Thus you have the power of God CLOAKING inward defilement. Is that really the Gospel?

Is the power of the Gospel really a mere cloak for ongoing inward wickedness? How can you believe that.

See how in your response (and all your responses) you completely omit any mention of heart purity being wrought in a believer. Your religion is devoid of heart purity being produced in a convert.

Your religion is a fancy cloak of Biblical words which solidifies strongholds in the mind whereby one comes to believe that they have been reconciled to God whilst one is still in rebellion.

Please don't under estimate the deceptions of Satan. Satan is far more dangerous than people believe and his ministers disguise themselves and ministers of righteousness who use the Bible. Yet their doctrine is a clear denial of the teachings of Jesus. Jesus who taught, "go and sin no more," "blessed are the pure for they shall see God," "your righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees," "strive to enter in at the strait gate," "dig deep and count the cost," "few will be saved but many will profess Jesus as Lord and yet be rejected as workers of iniquity."

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

ScottAU,

Do you seriously think I am going to wade through that ridiculously long post in order to try to refute your rationalizations and unbelief? Your next post would probably be even longer! I've told you before that I'm not interested in your long laundry list of cult talking points, yet you persist. I simply don't have the time to spend (or interest) indulging your entrenched disobedience.

 

[ScottAU]

ScottAU,

Do you seriously think I am going to wade through that ridiculously long post in order to try to refute your rationalizations and unbelief? Your next post would probably be even longer! I've told you before that I'm not interested in your long laundry list of cult talking points, yet you persist. I simply don't have the time to spend (or interest) indulging your entrenched disobedience.

Of course not, it would be out of character for you to do so.

You wouldn't be able to refute it anyway. The best you would be able to do is concoct strawmen and address those combined with the use of ad-hominen.

Remember this...

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17964-calvinism/?p=191346



The bottom line is your doctrine is a denial of the heart of a Christian being made pure.




The Bible teaches that faith purifies the heart.

Your doctrine teaches that faith cloaks ongoing iniquity.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The bottom line is your doctrine is a denial of the heart of a Christian being made pure.

That's a falsehood. I advocate heart purity.

 

[Episkopos]

That's a falsehood. I advocate heart purity.

...as a side issue! We will all be judged by what we did, what we said, and what we thought. The light exposes everything. The grace of God empowers us to live in such a way as the closer scrutiny brings MORE glory to God.

Joh_3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.