The Powerless Adversary in Job

[Ziggy]

it's all about dispelling this wretched fallen angel theology

Well, my interpretation and the Bible's interpretation of "angel" is messenger.
Like a prophet, a teacher.. someone that brings God's message to man.
And God uses "men" to speak to other men.
Consider Genesis 24 concerning Abraham sending his "servant" to find a bride for Isaac.

Gen 24:7 The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.

angel:
mălʼâk, mal-awk'; from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):—ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

Gen 24:31 And he said, Come in, thou blessed of the LORD; wherefore standest thou without? for I have prepared the house, and room for the camels.
Gen 24:32 And the man came into the house: and he ungirded his camels, and gave straw and provender for the camels, and water to wash his feet, and the men's feet that were with him.
Gen 24:33 And there was set meat before him to eat: but he said, I will not eat, until I have told mine errand. And he said, Speak on.

Gen 24:55 And her brother and her mother said, Let the damsel abide with us a few days, at the least ten; after that she shall go.
Gen 24:56 And he said unto them, Hinder me not, seeing the LORD hath prospered my way; send me away that I may go to my master.

The servant of Abraham is the angel of the Lord.

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

what is the body? What are the joints and bands? Who ministers?
Does God create the body? What is the body composed of?
Angels?

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

YLT: Young's Literal Translation
let no one beguile you of your prize, delighting in humble-mindedness and in worship of the messengers, intruding into the things he hath not seen, being vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh,

angel:
ággelos, ang'-el-os; from ἀγγέλλω aggéllō (probably derived from G71; compare G34) (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:—angel, messenger.


1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

What would be the difference between speaking as a man vs. speaking as an angel?

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

I believe in my opinion.. that to speak as an angel is to teach, bring a message, be a pastor.
Where speaking as men is more of a carnal nature. Speaking to those who are of the world in subjects that refer to the world.
And speaking of spiritual things to those who are spiritually minded.
But regardeless whether speaking of heavenly or earthly things, if we don't have charity, all the talking is worth nothing.

I believe angels are exactly how the bible interprets them in both the Hebrew and the Greek.
They are messengers of the Lord sent to all the world to spread the Gospel.
Hugs

 

[face2face]

Well, my interpretation and the Bible's interpretation of "angel" is messenger.
Like a prophet, a teacher.. someone that brings God's message to man.
And God uses "men" to speak to other men.
Consider Genesis 24 concerning Abraham sending his "servant" to find a bride for Isaac.

Gen 24:7 The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.

angel:
mălʼâk, mal-awk'; from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):—ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

Gen 24:31 And he said, Come in, thou blessed of the LORD; wherefore standest thou without? for I have prepared the house, and room for the camels.
Gen 24:32 And the man came into the house: and he ungirded his camels, and gave straw and provender for the camels, and water to wash his feet, and the men's feet that were with him.
Gen 24:33 And there was set meat before him to eat: but he said, I will not eat, until I have told mine errand. And he said, Speak on.

Gen 24:55 And her brother and her mother said, Let the damsel abide with us a few days, at the least ten; after that she shall go.
Gen 24:56 And he said unto them, Hinder me not, seeing the LORD hath prospered my way; send me away that I may go to my master.

The servant of Abraham is the angel of the Lord.

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

what is the body? What are the joints and bands? Who ministers?
Does God create the body? What is the body composed of?
Angels?

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

YLT: Young's Literal Translation
let no one beguile you of your prize, delighting in humble-mindedness and in worship of the messengers, intruding into the things he hath not seen, being vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh,

angel:
ággelos, ang'-el-os; from ἀγγέλλω aggéllō (probably derived from G71; compare G34) (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:—angel, messenger.


1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

What would be the difference between speaking as a man vs. speaking as an angel?

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

I believe in my opinion.. that to speak as an angel is to teach, bring a message, be a pastor.
Where speaking as men is more of a carnal nature. Speaking to those who are of the world in subjects that refer to the world.
And speaking of spiritual things to those who are spiritually minded.
But regardeless whether speaking of heavenly or earthly things, if we don't have charity, all the talking is worth nothing.

I believe angels are exactly how the bible interprets them in both the Hebrew and the Greek.
They are messengers of the Lord sent to all the world to spread the Gospel.
Hugs

Agree, that Angels are messengers, both divine and human, depending on the context of the Scripture in view.

 

[face2face]

Job did not mistakenly attribute his afflictions to God, as he knew the Lord chastens His children and its incomprehensible to suggest God would hand His son over to a pure evil being to be tested. Nowhere in all the Word of God is such a thing taught.

"The hand of God hath touched me" (Job 19:21 & Job 2:10).

Even Job's brethren, sisters and acquaintances acknowledged that the evil was brought upon Job by the LORD:

"they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him." (Job 42:11).

Can you see how fallen angel theology destroys the truth that God chastens those He loves? No doubt God could see into the heart of this adversary and responded in like to their judging thoughts concerning Job.

 

[face2face]

It's clear the adversary and their identity is nowhere to be found in the book of Job other than they are adverse to both how God treated Job and how Job appeared pious and self righteous in his faith.

Where did the adversary come from?

Job 1:7—The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Satan answered the Lord, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

It's interesting that the Adversary (whose character is in question) used language that normally applied to the Elohim (angels)

That point alone is interesting because we don't know if the adversary is misrepresenting themselves? if in fact it was an angel who wanted to challenge God in his handling of Job? All plausible scenarios.

Similar references:

Zechariah 1:10—The man who stood among the myrtle trees answered, “These are the ones whom the Lord has sent to walk to and fro throughout the earth.”

2Chronicles 16:9—For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him.

We have established the silence of the adversary after chapter 2 and nowhere mentioned in Job or the rest of the Scripture, so one might think the adversary never reformed. What ever their circumstances he was not like Job. Because of his focus being on security, wealth, prosperity and such an extensive influential family, it might be that this adversary felt he had worked for all they had - a strong man, whereas Job wealth was clearly given by God. Job, for all his wealth, appeared weak and beholden to Yahweh.

If the adversary was a spiritual being seeking the faith and loyalty that Job had for God, then I believe we would see an entirely different set of circumstances.

Angels are divine beings without a flesh and blood nature, they cannot sin - else your inheritance is marred!

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Is it for nothing that Job fears God?

Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 18:10

So much is lost on those who defile Heaven with their false doctrines by ignoring the Lords teaching and forcing ungodly notions on the text... they remove any hope of discovering truth. They despise the text in a way the adversary despised God's servant.

The Lord said to Satan, “You incited me against him, to destroy him without cause.” Job 2:3

The angel of the Lord encamps all around those who fear him, and delivers them. Psalms 34:7

Satan answered the Lord, “Skin for skin! all that a man has he will give for his life touch his bone and his flesh, he will curse you to your face!” Job 2:4

Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister [do service] for those who will inherit salvation? Hebrews 1:14

The adversary basically said "Job is loyal to you because of what you have done for him!"

1. you made a hedge around him and his household and all that he has on every side?
2. You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock have increased in the land.

In seeking God to smite him on every side the adversary was trying to prove Job's wealth was the source of his confidence and loyalty and of course this is one aspect of the story that is proven to be unjustified claims by the adversary.

Men will do one thing (often evil) while angels will always be ministering spirits working to help God's children enter into His Glory.

To the those who think otherwise - leave Heaven out of it - its God dwelling place.

It's the affairs of men which is always in view.

 

[Ziggy]

Agree, that Angels are messengers, both divine and human, depending on the context of the Scripture in view.

Is this thread concerning Job or fallen angels?

If it concerns fallen angels then I could point out a whole host of them right in the book of Exodus.
Who ministered the carnal law to Moses?
Who ministers the spiritual laws to christians?

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Jesus came right out and told the "lawyers" how they were mishandling the law and making changes that benefitted themselves instead of the people that heard it.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

These are those "angels" or ministers that had fallen from grace because they changed the truths into lies.

Eze 20:21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.
Eze 20:22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth.
Eze 20:23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries;
Eze 20:24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
Eze 20:25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
Eze 20:26 And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Even unto this day there is a spiritual war raging between the OT law and the NT law.
But both laws were given by those whom God appointed to administer it and ordain it.
In the OT it was Moses who was sent and he dispersed the law among the judges to determine the interprataion of the law.

Deu 1:1 These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab.
Deu 1:9 And I spake unto you at that time, saying, I am not able to bear you myself alone:
Deu 1:10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.
Deu 1:12 How can I myself alone bear your cumbrance, and your burden, and your strife?
Deu 1:13 Take you wise men, and understanding, and known among your tribes, and I will make them rulers over you.
Deu 1:14 And ye answered me, and said, The thing which thou hast spoken is good for us to do.
Deu 1:16 And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.
Deu 1:26 Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:
Deu 1:34 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
Deu 1:35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,
Deu 1:36 Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the LORD.

Jde 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Angels are ministers that teach and judge according to the law whether carnal or spiritual.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Angels can hold many offices. They can be kings or priests or pastors or teachers, pharisees and saducees and even lawyers.
They have the power to judge. And we have the power to judge the judges, whether they uphold the law in righteousness and truth or no.
In the OT you could not question the judges, you would be sentenced to death.
They left off righteous judgment and became merciless brutes.
God dethroned them from ruling over his people and sent Jesus who sent the Apostles to send us to spread the gospel.
We are the angels. We are the stars. We are God's children. We are the sons of God.

Hugs

 

[face2face]

Is this thread concerning Job or fallen angels?

If it concerns fallen angels then I could point out a whole host of them right in the book of Exodus.
Who ministered the carnal law to Moses?
Who ministers the spiritual laws to christians?

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Jesus came right out and told the "lawyers" how they were mishandling the law and making changes that benefitted themselves instead of the people that heard it.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

These are those "angels" or ministers that had fallen from grace because they changed the truths into lies.

Eze 20:21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.
Eze 20:22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth.
Eze 20:23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries;
Eze 20:24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
Eze 20:25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
Eze 20:26 And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Even unto this day there is a spiritual war raging between the OT law and the NT law.
But both laws were given by those whom God appointed to administer it and ordain it.
In the OT it was Moses who was sent and he dispersed the law among the judges to determine the interprataion of the law.

Deu 1:1 These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab.
Deu 1:9 And I spake unto you at that time, saying, I am not able to bear you myself alone:
Deu 1:10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.
Deu 1:12 How can I myself alone bear your cumbrance, and your burden, and your strife?
Deu 1:13 Take you wise men, and understanding, and known among your tribes, and I will make them rulers over you.
Deu 1:14 And ye answered me, and said, The thing which thou hast spoken is good for us to do.
Deu 1:16 And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.
Deu 1:26 Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:
Deu 1:34 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
Deu 1:35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,
Deu 1:36 Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the LORD.

Jde 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Angels are ministers that teach and judge according to the law whether carnal or spiritual.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Angels can hold many offices. They can be kings or priests or pastors or teachers, pharisees and saducees and even lawyers.
They have the power to judge. And we have the power to judge the judges, whether they uphold the law in righteousness and truth or no.
In the OT you could not question the judges, you would be sentenced to death.
They left off righteous judgment and became merciless brutes.
God dethroned them from ruling over his people and sent Jesus who sent the Apostles to send us to spread the gospel.
We are the angels. We are the stars. We are God's children. We are the sons of God.

Hugs

We are debunking the false teaching of fallen divine angels.

 

[face2face]

The other issue with believing the adversary is a fallen angel (divine), is questioning why would God even bother to engage (and to prove) a being that cannot repent or change?

I know right!

If the adversary was proven wrong and to induce him (and everyone like him) to change their ways and conform their lives to the example of His righteous servant Job you can understand God doing that, but to suggest God would engage with an unchanging evil creature is to not know God at all.

A suffering sinner, could never have convinced the adversary of the need for reform that is God's work. To prove a pure evil being with no possibility of repentance - pointless!

 

[Ziggy]

What do you mean by "devine" ?
There are verses in the bible that discuss this word divine it has more than one meaning.
As being able to devine like discern,
the other is:
Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Is this where heaven meets hell?
Devine service and a worldly sanctuary..

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

so this divinitive power has been given to his servants.. that's us.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

So in the first verse we have a divine service and a worldly sanctuary, and in the third verse we are also able to partake of this divine nature and yet escape the world.

By divine do you mean spiritual entity versus a carnal entity?
I'm just trying to clarify.
Thank you
Hugs