The Powerless Adversary in Job

[face2face]

Well, at last we have the word Satan or Adversary, which can be either good, or bad depending on the circumstances. Unlike a devil, or false accuser, these people are always bad.

Only problem in Job is once again nowhere does it state the adversary is a fallen angel.

The way I will approach this subject is by using a questioning technique which in a way is a process by elimination.

Being an inferred argument those believers who think their evil eternal creature lurks in the early pages of Job wont mind if we start with some insightful questions.

 

[face2face]

The first assumption made is that "Sons of God" refers to angels. It can, but not always!

Possibly angels Job 38:7
Humans in Deuteronomy 14:1 Psalms 82:6, Hosea 1:10, Luke 3:38; John 1:12; 1 John 3:1

Is it possible these Sons of God are simliar to those early people who gathered for communal worship? Cain and Abel came “in the process of time” [at the end of the days], with their offerings to worship at the cherubim at the East of the Garden?

 

[face2face]

Careful reading of the text is important:

Job 1:6 Now the day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord—and adversary also arrived among them.

It actually doesn't say that the adversary was a son of God, only that "he arrived among them". This potentially weakens any claim he was a fallen son of God. It's long been difficult to establish whether the adversary is angelic, or human as we shall see as we progress through the text.

 

[face2face]

As ridiculous as the thought may be, some Christians believe the Evil Creature conversed with Yahweh in Heaven. This inferred
"conference" apparently took place in heaven from these two ref:

"To present themselves before the LORD" Job 1:6
"so Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD" Job 2:7

Can you see the issues with assuming a Heavenly Conference?

 

[face2face]

If 1 Corinthians 1:29 means what it states how can a believing Christian hold the belief that God and s Pure Evil being met in Heaven together. This shows a level of self deception that the Apostles warned would happen to the body in the last days.

 

[Enoch111]

Only problem in Job is once again nowhere does it state the adversary is a fallen angel.

Oh, so you need a textbook instead of a Bible before you will believe this?

 

[face2face]

Oh, so you need a textbook instead of a Bible before you will believe this?

If you can show us from Job the adversary is a fallen angel by all means do so Enoch. All ears.

 

[Enoch111]

If you can show us from Job the adversary is a fallen angel by all means do so Enoch. All ears.

The very fact that Satan could send disaster upon disaster towards Job is clear proof that he is certainly not a human being. Which leaves us with just one alternative -- an evil angel who is specifically called ha Satan (the Adversary) in Hebrew. Since he is allowed into the presence of God and "the sons of God" (a specific term for angels in the OT) that settles the issue. So all you want to do is stir the pot.

Also you are trying to mislead with "the powerless" Adversary. If he was indeed powerless, Job would not have faced all those calamities.

 

[face2face]

The very fact that Satan could send disaster upon disaster towards Job is clear proof that he is certainly not a human being. Which leaves us with just one alternative -- an evil angel who is specifically called ha Satan (the Adversary) in Hebrew. Since he is allowed into the presence of God and "the sons of God" (a specific term for angels in the OT) that settles the issue. So all you want to do is stir the pot.

Also you are trying to mislead with "the powerless" Adversary. If he was indeed powerless, Job would not have faced all those calamities.

Here's what I think has happened with Job and the adversary. Let's assume you are right for a moment - for some reason he is the one sending calamities upon Job...lets test that.

Why would your pure evil creature ask God to stretch out His hand against Job? Why not do so without God? Job 1:11 & Job 2:5
a. How can there be a cordial agreement between God and Pure Evil?
b. If you believe Pure Evil can test Job so precisely, what's in it for him to prove or disprove Job's loyalty?
c. In proving the adversary's incorrect view of Job, God's is glorified - which implies 1. Your pure evil being doesn't fully know God's power and foreknowledge and 2. That your Pure Evil being has only assisted in Glorifying God.

If Job knew the identity of your pure evil being why in Job 1:21 does Job lay this at the feet of God?

When did Job's wife said; “Are you still holding firmly to your integrity? Curse God, and die!” Job 2:9 & Job 2:10
a. The focus of both Job & his wife here is serving the One true God and no Pure Evil being is in view
b. Keep on serving God and you will die - Job rebukes his with for her faithless comment.

In Job 6:4 Job states that the arrows of the Almighty are within in. If Job (or the Sons of God for that matter) knew the identity and intentions wouldn't Job attribute these to the adversary?

I could go on referencing Job 9:13; Job 10:8; Job 19:6

In fact in the whole book you have no reference to the adversary, not one! What you do have is every character including God Himself taking responsibility for the calamity which came upon Job.

So Enoch...not only is your pure evil being powerless he is totally unknown, only God knows the hidden intentions of this adversary's heart.

Also you are trying to mislead with "the powerless" Adversary. If he was indeed powerless, Job would not have faced all those calamities.

There is something you seem not not realise about Job's knowledge of God.

Romans 11:22 cmp Job 2:10 must be experienced by every child of God at some stage in their lives / probation.

Job knew he had received great blessings and prosperity but to know God, to truly know God there must be suffering before there can be glory. Job knew this much about his God so he held fast while complaining, he still held fast to his integrity. He had many flaws in his character which I wont go into now but in terms of the true identity of the adversary we will never know. It was most likely an envious brother (spiritual) who looked upon the riches of Job with jealously. Christians unfortunately always look to Heaven for chaos when the story of redemption is on Earth! We found that with Ezekiel 28 & Isaiah 14 both of which related to events on earth.

Why don't you go back to the record and see what the focus of the adversary is? I think you will find its Job's wealth and security.

Angelic beings don't care for riches! This adversary was outwardly religious and came into the assembly with his own form of worship, exactly like Cain did, whose envy of Abel led to hatred and murder. It's likely he was a personal adversary to Job, who despised and rejected his humility and desired submission to Yahweh, though Job I doubt, knew of these feelings toward him. Maybe the adversary thought Job was a hypocrite and a pious man and bringing him to ruin might allow Job to experience the type of existence he was living? It's a human trait as we know!

One thing is for sure - God is not going to allow his servant Job to be unknowingly tormented by an evil demonic being, without him full well knowing the true identity of the one orchestrating the affliction!

As I said early - just one verse Enoch, proving the adversary was a fallen angel, or that any of the characters in the book knew the existence of such a evil creature of darkness.

Good luck!

 

[face2face]

Cont...

The Scripture can read a certain way at times where we think "this must be taking place in Heaven!" But there are examples elsewhere which challenge that notion.

Men are said to be standing before God in Deuteronomy 19:17 and 2 Chronicles 19:6

 

[face2face]

Also, to leave the presence of the Lord (Job 1:12) does a person need to be in Heaven to do that?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Are you still trying to prove that "the adversary" is not a wicked angel?

Why would your pure evil creature ask God to stretch out His hand against Job? Why not do so without God? Job 1:11 & Job 2:5

I think that is quite obvious from the conversation between God and this adversary.....does God speak with wicked men? Does God bargain with wicked men? What did the devil have to gain out of Job's trials?

Who was it that came into the assembly of angels (sons of God) conversing with the Creator? A man? No wicked man can come before God in that setting. No wicked human could have orchestrated the chain of events that hit Job, one after the other, with no time in between to even come to terms with them individually, before the next tragedy.

Job 38:4-7 says....Jehovah asked Job....
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7 when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (ESV)
Who are the "sons of God" here? This is at the creation of the material universe including planet Earth which was carefully prepared by God long before the creation of man. The "sons of God" were observing all that was accomplished, and rejoiced over the finished product.

a. How can there be a cordial agreement between God and Pure Evil?

Where was there a cordial disagreement? Satan had already established himself as an adversary when he challenged the first humans in the Garden of Eden and won...or so he assumed when he got perfect creatures to abuse their free will and do his bidding instead.
He was intent on showing God that he could also get this righteous man to lose faith in the God who had blessed him so richly for his integrity.

b. If you believe Pure Evil can test Job so precisely, what's in it for him to prove or disprove Job's loyalty?

If you knew the agenda of God's adversary, you would not need to ask that question. He already had two notches on his belt, and this one would have been a sweet victory proving that humans didn't really love God, they only served him out of pure selfishness...for what they could get out of it.

c. In proving the adversary's incorrect view of Job, God's is glorified - which implies 1. Your pure evil being doesn't fully know God's power and foreknowledge and 2. That your Pure Evil being has only assisted in Glorifying God.

Again, you demonstrate no knowledge of the devil's true agenda.
In the garden of Eden, God's power was never challenged....it was his Sovereignty that was brought into question. The devil knows full well, the power of his Creator, and if it had been God's will, that upstart would never have been allowed to remain in existence for such a treasonous act....but in his wisdom, God kept the rebels in existence to test out the rest of humanity as well as the integrity of his angelic sons since he now had rebels in both realms. By doing this, he would weed out those who served him selfishly from those who were only loyal to their own comfort.

If Jehovah had simply dispatched the rebels and started again, the issues raised with regard to God's sovereign right to set the limits of their freedom, would never have been settled. But this way a record of human folly in seeking independence from God would set precedents for all time to come. No rebel would be able to interfere with God's purpose ever again. We already know where it leads and no one will ever want us to go there again.

If Job knew the identity of your pure evil being why in Job 1:21 does Job lay this at the feet of God?

That is what makes Job's case so amazing....he had no idea of what was taking place behind the scenes. He was not privy to the conversations between God and his adversary in the spiritual realm. He even felt that if God was punishing him for some misdemeanor, he must have had a good reason...such was the man's faith.

 

[Aunty Jane]

When did Job's wife said; “Are you still holding firmly to your integrity? Curse God, and die!” Job 2:9 & Job 2:10
a. The focus of both Job & his wife here is serving the One true God and no Pure Evil being is in view

Job 2:9-10...
"Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die.” 10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips." (ESV)

Do we understand why his wife said that to him? She had gone through all the losses that he had suffered. She had given birth to their 10 children and her standard of living was also compromised by the material losses they suffered.....when Job himself was afflicted, she just wanted it all to stop. She was not chastised by God for her outcry, but Job expressed his faith that there had to be reasons why God had allowed this to happen to him.

b. Keep on serving God and you will die - Job rebukes his with for her faithless comment.

It wasn't faithless...it was out of grief and desperation because she was probably expecting Job to die, and then what would become of her now that all her children were gone? Think about what that meant for a woman back then....

In fact in the whole book you have no reference to the adversary, not one! What you do have is every character including God Himself taking responsibility for the calamity which came upon Job.

The adversary is right there is the first two chapters....challenging the integrity of the most righteous man in existence at the time.
In Job ch 2 we see him slip up in his challenge revealing what this test was all about....
Job 2:3-6...
"And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.” 4 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.” 6 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.” (ESV)
There it is....Job was being tested representatively on behalf of all mankind. The devil did not say "everything Job has" but "everything a MAN has he he will give for his life". Satan reckoned that any human would leave God if it meant saving his life....what do you think a martyr is?
Many of the early Christians were martyred rather than renounce their faith. Death was not going to make them alter their course because they had no fear of death. Satan uses the fear of death to get people to compromise their faith, and when weak ones shrink back in fear, they lose the backing of God's spirit. (Hebrews 10:35-38)

Why don't you go back to the record and see what the focus of the adversary is? I think you will find its Job's wealth and security.

No way! It was always his faith and integrity....that was where satan wanted the victory.
When he tempted Jesus after his baptism, what did he want from Jesus? "Worship"...just one act of bowing to him and it would have been a sweet victory....he tried it on three times, but was met with scripture each time. So Job and Jesus showed us how to handle this adversary in oder for his claims in Eden to be proven to be pathetic lies.

Angelic beings don't care for riches! This adversary was outwardly religious and came into the assembly with his own form of worship, exactly like Cain did, whose envy of Abel led to hatred and murder. It's likely he was a personal adversary to Job, who despised and rejected his humility and desired submission to Yahweh, though Job I doubt, knew of these feelings toward him. Maybe the adversary thought Job was a hypocrite and a pious man and bringing him to ruin might allow Job to experience the type of existence he was living? It's a human trait as we know!

That is all conjecture F2F....nothing like what is in the account as it relates to the whole biblical narrative.
In Genesis the devil emerges as an enemy of God and in Revelation he is removed from existence along with his angels.
Revelation 12:7-12...
"Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation was written about the future and we are now in "the Lord's day", when the devil is wreaking havoc on this earth in Job-like succession with one disaster after another....and this is on a global scale. These are the last days, and the devil is out to take as many down with him as he can.
God has used him to filter out the ones who will not become citizens of God's incoming Kingdom. Only the faithful will remain.

One thing is for sure - God is not going to allow his servant Job to be unknowingly tormented by an evil demonic being, without him full well knowing the true identity of the one orchestrating the affliction!

He did not reveal to Job the reason for his trials because that makes his victory over satan many times more powerful.

Look at how Job ended his life.....(Job 42:10-16) God is a rewarder of faithfulness. (Hebrews 11:6)

 

[face2face]

Job 2:9-10...
"Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die.” 10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips." (ESV)

Do we understand why his wife said that to him? She had gone through all the losses that he had suffered. She had given birth to their 10 children and her standard of living was also compromised by the material losses they suffered.....when Job himself was afflicted, she just wanted it all to stop. She was not chastised by God for her outcry, but Job expressed his faith that there had to be reasons why God had allowed this to happen to him.

Agree but God didn't allow it - we have already established it was He who was afflicting Job.

It wasn't faithless...it was out of grief and desperation because she was probably expecting Job to die, and then what would become of her now that all her children were gone? Think about what that meant for a woman back then....

It was faithless Jane hence Job's rebuke of his wife - accept it...own it!

Honestly Jane - are you trying to antagonize me? I know what's she's been through but that's the point there is no excuse for lacking faith!

Job 2:10

“You’re talking like one of the godless women would do! Should we receive what is good from God, and not also receive what is evil?” In all this Job did not sin by what he said.

Job did not sin...but his wife just did.

The adversary is right there is the first two chapters....

Yep - insignificant....powerless and quickly forgotten in the story!

challenging the integrity of the most righteous man in existence at the time.

God was testing His servants faith. 1 Peter 1:7

In Job ch 2 we see him slip up in his challenge revealing what this test was all about....
Job 2:3-6...
"And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.” 4 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.” 6 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.” (ESV)

You just quoted a text that contradicted your own point.

Here the Adversary accused Job of being utterly selfish—willing to suffer the loss of his family and possessions if he could save his own skin!

The adversary wanted God to take his affliction further!

There it is....Job was being tested representatively on behalf of all mankind. The devil did not say "everything Job has" but "everything a MAN has he he will give for his life". Satan reckoned that any human would leave God if it meant saving his life....what do you think a martyr is?

We already established what the adversary was envious at:

Job 1:10

Have you not made a hedge around him and his household and all that he has on every side?
You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock have increased in the land.

Now the adversary asks God to....

extend your hand and strike everything he has, and he will no doubt curse you to your face!

No way! It was always his faith and integrity....that was where satan wanted the victory.
When he tempted Jesus after his baptism, what did he want from Jesus? "Worship"...just one act of bowing to him and it would have been a sweet victory....he tried it on three times, but was met with scripture each time. So Job and Jesus showed us how to handle this adversary in oder for his claims in Eden to be proven to be pathetic lies.

The adversary's relationship with God was imperfect and his ill feelings toward Job... or might we say, his claim that God had shown him favoritism (through blessings) was proven to be unfounded.

In the end God was right to bless Job as He had done.

That is all conjecture F2F....nothing like what is in the account as it relates to the whole biblical narrative.
In Genesis the devil emerges as an enemy of God and in Revelation he is removed from existence along with his angels.
Revelation 12:7-12...
"Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation was written about the future and we are now in "the Lord's day", when the devil is wreaking havoc on this earth in Job-like succession with one disaster after another....and this is on a global scale. These are the last days, and the devil is out to take as many down with him as he can.
God has used him to filter out the ones who will not become citizens of God's incoming Kingdom. Only the faithful will remain.


He did not reveal to Job the reason for his trials because that makes his victory over satan many times more powerful.

Look at how Job ended his life.....(Job 42:10-16) God is a rewarder of faithfulness. (Hebrews 11:6)

Jane, you don't understand the Lord's Revelation and to unpack that error would take many threads I sense. It hasn't gone unnoticed that you consistently try to squeeze it into your posts. But as I have said in numerous posts - stay on topic and lets see if you can work Job out first before we move onto the next misunderstood section of Scripture.

Suffice to say, it's enough for now to know that Job understood Who was afflicting him and your denial of this truth is telling.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Cont....

I'm happy to climb up over the fence and see what it looks like from the other side of this argument.

How could pure evil have access to the dwelling place of God in Heaven?

 

[face2face]

Cont...

Faithful men/women are delivered into the hands of the wicked, even Jesus himself! But not into the hands of a fallen angel!

Job 16:11 God has delivered me to the ungodly, and turned me over to wicked hands.

Not over to a fallen angel!

Daniel 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, persecute the saints of the Most High; the saints shall be given into his hand for a time, times, half a time.

Acts of the Apostles 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death.

Conclusion:

The righteous, the wise and their works are in the hand of God (Ecclesiastes 9:1).

 

[Aunty Jane]

Agree but God didn't allow it - we have already established it was He who was afflicting Job.

No, sorry....God did not do a thing to Job, but allowed the devil do his best to undo Job's integrity because he knew that Job would survive it with his faith intact (1 Corinthians 10:13)......the devil failed miserably, as God knew he would because God always knows the end from the beginning.

It was faithless Jane hence Job's rebuke of his wife - accept it...own it!

Since God did not condemn her its interesting that you would...are you her judge now? I will own nothing, nor will I accept what is not backed up by God's word. You have suggestions...that is all. Where is your back up???? If no one else believes what you do, what is that telling you?

Honestly Jane - are you trying to antagonize me? I know what's she's been through but that's the point there is no excuse for lacking faith!

“You’re talking like one of the godless women would do! Should we receive what is good from God, and not also receive what is evil?” In all this Job did not sin by what he said.

Job did not sin...but his wife just did.

Did God somehow pronounce sentence on this poor woman that I am unaware of? He did not call her "godless", he called her "foolish" (nāḇāl) Remember Abigail's husband? His name was "nāḇāl"...and aptly so.
Job's wife was blessed along with her husband in the end. What is with this condemning spirit you have as if you cannot be wrong in your assumptions...because you do realize that this is what you are offering here...? There is no condemnation of Job's wife from God.
Her outburst was natural under the circumstances....you think God was oblivious to her plight?

Yep - insignificant....powerless and quickly forgotten in the story!

Powerful enough to do all that was recorded as happening to one man in a succession of calamities that could not have been brought on this man by any human efforts. Did any man have the ability to take away all his possessions, kill all of his children and make Job sick to the point of death? That would be a monumental effort for any man and they would have to be dead set hating on this poor man who was not a threat to anyone...except satan.
Job's faith, like Jesus' faith, was tested to the limit, and neither of them let their God down. (Proverbs 27:11)

You just quoted a text that contradicted your own point.

Here the Adversary accused Job of being utterly selfish—willing to suffer the loss of his family and possessions if he could save his own skin!

The adversary wanted God to take his affliction further!

What???? Job had just proven that his possessions were NOT more important than his faith in his God...he said that to his wife ....they should accept not only what is good, but also what is bad if they have to. You are way off on this point and many others IMO.

We already established what the adversary was envious at:

Job 1:10

Have you not made a hedge around him and his household and all that he has on every side?
You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock have increased in the land.

Now the adversary asks God to....

extend your hand and strike everything he has, and he will no doubt curse you to your face!

How was the adversary envious? He was wicked....looking for ways to undermine this man's faith by allowing him to believe that his calamities were coming from God. Not once did God do a thing against Job, but was standing by to make sure that the devil did not go past his line of demarcation. He gave it all over to the adversary to do his darndest.....and he failed....as God already knew he would.

Jane, you don't understand the Lord's Revelation and to unpack that error would take many threads I sense. It hasn't gone unnoticed that you consistently try to squeeze it into your posts. But as I have said in numerous posts - stay on topic and lets see if you can work Job out first we move onto the next misunderstood section of Scripture.

Oh please....you cant tell me that I don't understand what God's word says just because it disagrees with your take on things....who says you are correct in your assumptions? You? Who is with you on all this? Anyone you know? Others that you meet with regularly for worship? (Hebrews 10:24-25)

Suffice to say, it's enough for now to know that Job understood Who was afflicting him and your denial of this truth is telling.

There is not a single thing that Job said that indicated that he knew who was afflicting him. He may mistakenly have thought it was God who was bringing all this calamity on him, since his co-called 'comforters' made that suggestion. But he knew that he had done nothing to deserve what had happened to him. He was willing to wait on Jehovah to bring it all to a finish and he is in the scriptures as a shining example for all of us. His patience and his willingness to pray for the ones who were there to bring him down to the lowest....is outstanding.

How could pure evil have access to the dwelling place of God in Heaven?

God allowed satan access to heaven for the duration of the object lesson he was going to bring on his whole family, both in heaven and on earth....after he was finished with the devil, he kicked him out of heaven to have his final fling confined to the earth......heaven is joyful about that, but the earth will experience woe! (Revelation 12:7-12) and we are seeing it take place right before our eyes. The devil is angry, but he will be imprisoned soon and the faithful will have a chance to experience the kind of life that God meant for us from the beginning. (Revelation 21:2-4)

I don't believe that you have a leg to stand on in this debate.

 

[face2face]

No, sorry....God did not do a thing to Job, but allowed the devil do his best to undo Job's integrity because he knew that Job would survive it with his faith intact (1 Corinthians 10:13)......the devil failed miserably, as God knew he would because God always knows the end from the beginning.

Job 42:11 is the clincher here. You can run from it but its at the end of the book and everyone in the book agrees with Job 42:11 everyone but Jane! I think its becoming clear that you read what you want to read and ignore the rest! It's that confirmation bias thing kicking in!

Did God somehow pronounce sentence on this poor woman that I am unaware of? He did not call her "godless", he called her "foolish" (nāḇāl) Remember Abigail's husband? His name was "nāḇāl"...and aptly so.
Job's wife was blessed along with her husband in the end. What is with this condemning spirit you have as if you cannot be wrong in your assumptions...because you do realize that this is what you are offering here...? There is no condemnation of Job's wife from God.
Her outburst was natural under the circumstances....you think God was oblivious to her plight?

Wow please don't compare her to Nabal, what are you thinking ????

I said "she sinned" but the point you will recall is not about the wife, but that fact she sees God as being the One afflicting Job.

Show us where she states its your fallen angel?

You can't.

Here is commentary - maybe you can disagree with them also?

Job’s wife’s advice was brief and final, “Curse God and die.” Both verbs are imperatives. She believed as the counselors did that there is a direct and immediate connection between sin and punishment. To curse God is tantamount to committing suicide. She suggested that he do something to effect his own death. The legislation of Leviticus 24:10-16 requires the community to stone to death anyone guilty of cursing God, but it is not likely that Job’s wife was reflecting these laws.

The middle part of this verse is another of those classic, quotable insights from the mouth of Job. It is preceded, however, by his abrupt and insulting rebuke to his wife. More literally it reads, “You speak like the speaking of one of the foolish women.” It is impossible to say what “foolish women” he had in mind.

Powerful enough to do all that was recorded as happening to one man in a succession of calamities that could not have been brought on this man by any human efforts. Did any man have the ability to take away all his possessions, kill all of his children and make Job sick to the point of death? That would be a monumental effort for any man and they would have to be dead set hating on this poor man who was not a threat to anyone...except satan.

Job's faith, like Jesus' faith, was tested to the limit, and neither of them let their God down. (Proverbs 27:11)

Isaiah 53:10 enough said!

What???? Job had just proven that his possessions were NOT more important than his faith in his God...he said that to his wife ....they should accept not only what is good, but also what is bad if they have to. You are way off on this point and many others IMO.

I never said Job's possessions were more important to his faith - what I said is the adversary saw them as a problem and clearly felt God was unjust hedging him about and blessing him with wealth.

Take care when reading my words.

Not once did God do a thing against Job, but was standing by to make sure that the devil did not go past his line of demarcation.

Red = error already proven God brought the evil upon Job. Hebrews 12:6

Blue text = Lets think about that for a moment - you have pure evil obeying pure goodness? You have God agreeing to pure evil hurting his son?

Oh please....you cant tell me that I don't understand what God's word says just because it disagrees with your take on things....who says you are correct in your assumptions? You? Who is with you on all this? Anyone you know? Others that you meet with regularly for worship? (Hebrews 10:24-25)

I don't need 8500 members to show me that your evil fallen angel is one of the greatest fabrications of all time and as you know you gave up on Ezekiel 28 - nothing from you on Isaiah 14 and now you are trying your hardest in Job but you have nothing to offer.

I've asked you to show me anyone in the entire book of Job, someone who acknowledges your fallen angel and the one afflicting Job but nothing...surely at the end of the story to show something of a humiliation of this evil creature but not a word!

God took away and God restored!

End of story.

There is not a single thing that Job said that indicated that he knew who was afflicting him. He may mistakenly have thought it was God

Mistakenly - are you for real?

God acknowledges it
The adversary acknowledges it
Job's wife acknowledges it
All of Jobs friends acknowledge it was God who afflicted him.

And you say Job was mistaken in thinking it was God - wow (head shake and palm rested firmly on forehead)

God allowed satan access to heaven for the duration of the object lesson he was going to bring on his whole family, both in heaven and on earth....after he was finished with the devil, he kicked him out of heaven to have his final fling confined to the earth......heaven is joyful about that, but the earth will experience woe! (Revelation 12:7-12) and we are seeing it take place right before our eyes. The devil is angry, but he will be imprisoned soon and the faithful will have a chance to experience the kind of life that God meant for us from the beginning. (Revelation 21:2-4)

I don't believe that you have a leg to stand on in this debate.

O dear Jane - read that last paragraph, its woeful.

Don't you know that Yahweh does not tolerate evil Psalms 5:4, Psalms 5:5; Habakkuk 1:13

How can a rebel angel access Heaven? I need to teach you the Lord's prayer from Matthew 6:10 - where did Jesus teach that Heaven was the place of disorder and chaos?

May your kingdom come, may YOUR WILL will be done on earth AS IT IS IN heaven.

You have so much wrong you need to be taught again.

Give me truth and no legs any day!

F2F

 

[Ziggy]

Well, at last we have the word Satan or Adversary, which can be either good, or bad depending on the circumstances. Unlike a devil, or false accuser, these people are always bad.

Only problem in Job is once again nowhere does it state the adversary is a fallen angel.

The way I will approach this subject is by using a questioning technique which in a way is a process by elimination.

Being an inferred argument those believers who think their evil eternal creature lurks in the early pages of Job wont mind if we start with some insightful questions.

The problem is, most people don't like to look in the mirror.
The Bible should be read internally. Like the picture of the "angel" on one shoulder and the "devil" on the other,
we all are capable of good and evil.
Evil comes in many forms, and depending on whom is judging what evil is.
In the case of David, the bible says "Satan" tempted David to number Israel. David himself confesses it was he himself that numbered Israel.
This in itself showed a lack of trust in God's power vs that of other man's armies.
Is doubt evil?
The bible says whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
So in God's eyes David sinned. David appologized and even told God to choose what punishment to administer.
Did Satan bring the plague, or the armies, or the famine?
Did Satan kill Job's family and flocks and cause boils on Job's skin?

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

How is it that Satan has the "power" to move God against Job?

In Chapter 27 of Job, Job is comparing a good man to an evil man.
In this chapter Job sees himself as all righteous, and then goes on with his own tongue to explain how God deals with the wicked.
Compare what Jod says God's judgment is and what he himself experienced at the hand of God.
Job said it....
Words are very powerful. With what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto thee.
Just listen and see what you think
Hugs

Did Job condemn himself?
Was he the adversary that stood before God in his own integrity and self righteousness?

 

[face2face]

The problem is, most people don't like to look in the mirror.

A refreshing read thanks.
Eventually I want to discuss the idea of Job fearing God and the negative aspects of this on his faith but for now it's all about dispelling this wretched fallen angel theology which has ruined Gods Word and its beauty. When I have time I'd like to watch your links and respond but for now I'm picking my daughter up from MacDonalds/work.
Peace
F2F