The Problem with Dispensationalism

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you’ll notice in Rev. 1:4, it is addressed to the seven churches in the province of Asia. Not synagogues, not temples but churches. The whole book is written to us and for us, the church, the Body of Christ. This brings us to the topic of Dispensationalism. This is the belief that Israel and the church are eternally separate and God will always deal with each group separately.
It is important when studying Bible Prophecy to begin with a correct understanding of God’s dealings with humanity. It is my opinion that dispensationalism, as it is commonly understood today, distorts the historical picture which leads some scholars to make false conclusions based on an inaccurate understanding of God’s plan. Now I am not saying that I have a better understanding than anyone else or that God has let me in on the secrets of the universe. I just look at things differently than dispensational pre-tribulation rapturists.
I was raised Pentecostal and learned and believed in those theories since childhood. However, I read a book called "The Pre-wrath Rapture of the Church", by Marv Rosenthal, that challenged what I was always taught. I did not instantly change my theology because of that book. I devoted myself to studying biblical eschatology for myself with no pre-conceived notions and asked myself, “What if dispensationalism was wrong? Does the bible really teach a pre-trib rapture?” I studied for several months the various end-times theologies and the results were life changing. I found that what I had always been taught as "truth" stood on very shaky ground.
Dispensationalists see God pursuing two goals throughout history. An earthly kingdom for the Jews and a heavenly kingdom for the church. Membership in Israel is by natural birth while one enters the Church by supernatural birth. They believe that in the O.T., God promised the Jews an earthly kingdom ruled by Messiah ben David and that when Christ came, He offered that prophesied kingdom to the Jews. When they rejected Him and His earthly kingdom, the promise was postponed and a "mystery form" of the kingdom was established, the "church". The church according to dispensational doctrine was unforeseen in the O.T. and constitutes an interruption but not a discontinuation of God’s plan for Israel.
They believe that in the future, the separation between the "church" and the "Jews" will be re-established and this separation will continue for all eternity. They believe this interruption, aka, the "church age" will end at the rapture when Christ takes away all living and dead believers (but not the O.T. saints) to heaven to celebrate the "Marriage Feast of the Lamb" for seven years. God’s program for the Jews will then resume with the Anti-Christ, seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and a 144,000 Jewish preachers spreading the gospel (calling the 144,000 preachers is strictly a pre-trib doctrine. No where in scripture does it say they do anything except get sealed for protection. What they fail to realize is they are acknowledging that God will not leave the earth w/o a witness, but that witness will be the still here church) and concluding with Armageddon. Then the Second Coming, the instantaneous conversion of the entire Jewish population, the resurrection of the tribulation and old testament saints and of course the millennium and all that goes with it.
(beginning of material from an unknown source)
Modern dispensationalism varies from older pre-millenialism in several ways. Older pre-millennialism taught:
1. The church was foreseen in the Old Testament.
2. The majority of Old Testament prophecy foretold the coming of Christ to die for our sins followed by a second coming to reclaim His earthly kingdom.
3. The present age of grace was designed by God and predicted in the Old Testament.
4. That one could divide the biblical timeline any way they chose as long as they allowed for a millennial era after His second coming.
5. That specific signs must precede His second Coming.
6. There are two resurrections, the righteous before the Millennium and the unrighteous after the Millennium prior to the Great White Throne Judgment.
 
Modern Dispensationalism teaches the only way to divide biblical time is in seven dispensations. The church era is the sixth dispensation and the last one will be the millennial age after the second coming. It is from this division of time that Dispensationalism gets its name. They also teach that no signs precede the "rapture-stage" of the Second Coming, which according to their theology may occur at any moment. However, they state that there are signs that precede the "revelation-stage" of His second coming. They believe that the first stage is undated and not announced but the second stage is dated and announced.
Dispensationalism has introduced a third resurrection. The so-called tribulation saints after Armageddon. It has taken a far more rigid standpoint and several new approaches to prophetic interpretation that the church hadn’t heard of until just a couple of centuries ago. In contrast, Christian theology has always seen the unity of Israel and the church. The elect of all the ages are seen as one people, with one Savior, one destiny. This can be shown by examining a few Old Testament prophesies with their fulfillment.
If the church is found fulfilling any of “Israel's” promises as contained in the new testament or anywhere else in scripture, then modern dispensational theology is refuted. (The following scripture quotes are all from the NKJV)
A promise to Israel
Hosea 1:10 -"Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.'
Fulfilled by the church
Romans 9:22-26 - “What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God."
A promise to Israel
Hosea 2:23 - Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth, And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy; Then I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they shall say, 'You are my God!'" -
Fulfilled by the church
1 Peter 2:9-10 -“But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy
A promise to Israel -
Amos 9:11 - "On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old;
Fulfilled by the church
Acts 15:14-18 - "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: 'After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the LORD who does all these things.' "Known to God from eternity are all His works
In the same manner there are many Old Testament passages referring to Israel that are in the New Testament applied directly to the church.
Spoken of Israel
Joel 2:28-32 - "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls

Fulfilled in the church -
Acts 2:1,16-21 - “When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place..."But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved
Spoken of Israel
Exodus 19:6 - 'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.

Fulfilled in the church
1 Peter 2:9 - “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light

Spoken of Israel
Ezekiel 37:27 - "My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. -
Fulfilled in the church
2 Cor 6:16 - “And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people."

Spoken of Israel
Lev 19:2 - "Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say to them: 'You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy.”
Fulfilled in the church
1 Peter 1:15-16 - “…but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy.”

Spoken of Israel
Jer. 31:31 - "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah .”

Fulfilled in the church
Luke 22:20- “Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.”
(from an unknown source)

Dispensationalists, determined to cling to their false distinction between Israel and the church are forced to abandon the new testament's application to the church. Albertus Pieters, however, representing non-dispensational commentators in general, explains:
"This is entirely correct [that Israel is meant in Jeremiah 31], and it is to the house of Israel that the fulfillment came. The objection arises from a failure to perceive that the Christian church in its origin was an Israelite body, fully qualified to claim the promises made to Israel.... The Christian church, once having been established, had many Gentiles come into it, but that did not make it a "church from among the Gentiles", any more than the naturalization of many Italians in our country makes this a nation from among the Italians.... they were all Israelite members of the Old Covenant people of God, to whom the promise had been made. Strictly in line with the promise and with the prevailing principle of the covenant history, to them, the believing remnant, the promise of the New Covenant was fulfilled. That promise was, "To the House of Israel and the House of Judah," and to the designated parties the fulfillment came; to all who were, in the sight of God and according to a just interpretation of history, still worthy of the name: "Israel and Judah.".... In all this, are we spiritualizing the prophecy as some allege? Not at all. We are stating a historical fact, clearly contained in the sacred records, that in or about the spring of the year 30 A.D., the mass of those who then called themselves Israelites ceased to be such for prophetic and covenant purpose, having forfeited their citizenship in the common-wealth of Israel by refusing to accept the Messiah, and that after this event all the privileges of the Abrahamic Covenant and all the promises of God belonged to the believing remnant, and to them only; which remnant was therefore and thereafter the true Israel and Judah, and the Seed of Abraham, the Christian church. Thus the promise was fulfilled strictly and definitely to the designated parties." (end of quote)
(end of material from an unknown source)
I think this adequately shows that dispensationalism stands on shaky ground. The pre-trib rapture belief stands on the two legs of dispensationalism and imminence. If one or both can be shown as an inadequate understanding of scripture than the honest christian searching for a truthful understanding of bible prophecy must reconsider their stance in the face of all the evidence that is shown to be contrary to their understanding.
I have one final question for all the dispensationalists to consider. If the O.T. is a Jewish testament with Jewish prophecies and no gentile believers in sight, What would you call all those who had faith in God prior to Abraham? There was no Jewish nation, so they must have been Gentiles. In fact, Abraham, the Father of the Jewish nation was not Jewish by blood, he was a gentile and only became a Jew spiritually because God chose him.
I do not claim that all pre-wrath adherents believe the way I do about dispensationalism. What I believe on this issue are the results of many hours of personal study and they are my personal opinions. I do not believe that one group, the church, will be part of a Heavenly Kingdom while the Jews will stay here on earth in an Earthly Kingdom. What Scripture is used to determine this separation of people?
It boils down to the prophecies given to Israel in O.T. books like Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, the minor prophets, etc. One that stands out, however, is Dan. 9:24 - "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place”. (KJV)
I agree with most dispensationalists on this one issue, that there is a prophesied period of seven years that is still to come but I disagree with them on what the 70th week consists of and the timing and details of various prophetic events within the context of the 70th week. This is an important scripture for dispensationalists but because world events will be happening to the gentile nations as well, and not just the jews, I do not give this the separatist authority that they give it.
I do not say I don't believe in any dispensation what-so-ever. What I am trying to point out is that pre-trib rapturists take dispensationalism to such an extreme ideal that it has taken on a meaning that was never intended or, in my opinion, taught in the bible. Let me give you a couple of scriptures that you are probably familiar of within the context of the "church" but I believe there is more to them than meets the eye, and from what is normally taught from the pulpit.
Rom. 12:4-5 - For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, [sup]5[/sup] so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and indi-vidually members one of another. (NIV)
I believe that there is a partial separation between national "earthly" Israel and the church. For example, if a Jew converts to christianity, he maintains his nationality as an Italian or a Japanese person would do, but spiritually they become members of the Body of Christ and their nationality has no special significance nor has it ever since Christ was crucified. I do not believe that a Jewish christian has any more or less standing before God than a gentile christian does. I believe all the old testament saints and all Jewish believers, dead or living prior to the rapture, will rule and reign with us in heaven and there is no special earthly kingdom for them. I believe this because of the parable of the Workers in the Vineyard found in Matt. 20: 1-16.
"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. [sup]2[/sup] "When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. [sup]3[/sup] "And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place; [sup]4[/sup] and to those he said, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' And so they went. [sup]5[/sup] "Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing. [sup]6[/sup] "And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day long?' [sup]7[/sup] "They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.' [sup]8[/sup] "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.' [sup]9[/sup] "When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius. [sup]10[/sup] "When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. [sup]11[/sup] "When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, [sup]12[/sup] saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.' [sup]13[/sup] "But he answered and said to one of them, ' Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? [sup]14[/sup] 'Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. [sup]15[/sup] 'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?' [sup]16[/sup] "So the last shall be first, and the first last." (NIV)

I equate the "early morning" to "prior to Noah". The "third hour" from Noah to Abraham. The "sixth hour" from Abraham to Christ. The "ninth hour" from Christ through the 70th week and the "eleventh hour" to those saved within the millennial era.
All
will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven equally, however the rewards we receive because of our obedience and faithful work performed for God will vary with each individual. What about the promises to Israel regarding the land of Israel? The Israelites are still God's chosen earthly people and He will set up His millennial kingdom in Israel with Jerusalem as His capitol. Those Israelites who survived Daniel’s 70th week and Armageddon, will retain their humanity entering the millennium (Rev. 12:14) along with the 144,000 and will be the base of the earthly kingdom for the Jews that was promised by God. God always fulfills His promises. But that is all it is; a promise fulfilled.
The gentiles who retain their humanity and survive the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 will be envious of them because Jesus is reigning in their homeland but Jesus will rule both Israel and the gentile nations equally with an iron scepter. The Israelites and gentiles of this millennial era who commit themselves to Christ will become part of and not separate from the Body of Christ and when they die and are resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgment, after the millennium, they will join the church as part of His eternal body because God sees us as all one, united to Him through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. They are part of the Body of Christ but have a different function (Rom. 12:4-5) in their time than we do in ours.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Staying in God's Holy Writ makes it easy. Only when we get outside His Word with men's doctrines does the confusion come.

Literal Israel became... Christ's Church. The idea of God's Church is... His Israel per the Promise He first gave through His servant Abraham (Gal.3).

it's the Orthodox unbelieving Jews that have confused that Truth, because they want the world to think that they only are Israel. Unbelieving Jews that refuse Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ are 'cut off' as long as they refuse to believe on Him.

Find where God's Birthright Promises wound up, and one will find God's Israel on earth. Then, automatically link all believing Gentiles with that Israel, because true Israel can never... be separated from The Gospel of Jesus Christ as His Church.


Eph 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(KJV)

Commonwealth of Israel = Christ's Church


Do we find God's Birthright Promises established in any other locations on earth than with Christ's Church? No.

This is why The Gospel was first accepted by the western Christian nations; it's because that's where the majority of the seed of Israel migrated to after their captivities under paganism. That mainly involved the "house of Israel", the lost ten tribes of Israel, with Ephraim as their head tribe. That's why those areas of the earth have been so blessed by God. It's why those nations have controlled the gates of their enemies throughout history. It's also why The Gospel has gone forth from those areas to all other nations through Christian history. It's why Christ's enemies have especially targeted the West for destruction under World Socialism and destruction of Christianity.

The time now is very short brethren. When God began allowing the enemy to setup up their world controls over His people in all lands, that's a sign of the enemy's coming destruction by Christ's second coming.
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shabbat shalom, Trekson.

I can't let this go unchallenged. You aren't even aware of the damage such teaching has caused down through the years, and this is not a new teaching but a VERY old one. It's what the Roman church used in the 2nd and 3rd centuries to BURY the Jewishness of the believers and their faith!

First of all, I challenge your concept of the "church." The "church" is NOT a "universal body of believers." That's catholic talk because the word "catholic" MEANS "universal!" Somehow, modern "churches" that identify themselves as "Protestant" have NOT left this concept behind when they "protested" against the Roman Catholic Church" and supposedly came out of it. Even Martin Luther's 95 theses did not cover this. They'll even go so far as to capitalize the word as "Church!"

The word "church," stemming from the Middle English word "chir(i)che," which in turn came from the Old English word "cir(i)ce", which came from the Greek word "kuri(a)kon," simply means "of the Lord."

The word "church" was used in translation for the Greek word "ekkleesia," which is a participle meaning a "called out (group)." Used as a noun, it is more like our gerund, and it is similar in concept to our collective nouns, like "flock" (of sheep or goats), "herd" (of cattle), "school" (of fish), "pride" (of lions), or even a "gaggle" (of geese). Another English word used to translate this Greek word was "assembly," such as in Act 19:32, 39, and 41 when referring to the assembly of people against Paul in Ephesus.

It is neither an organization nor a corporation. It is a collective noun for a gathering of people in a particular location. Thus, these are ONLY local collections of people. For proof of that, one merely has to look at the beginning of each of Paul's epistles or letters to the various congregations, such as the congregation in Korinth, Asia, and the fact that there are several locations in Scripture which talk about the "churches" plural. Revelation 2 and 3 are a perfect example of what I am saying. They are not "various epochs of the church age," as some like to think, but they were seven, specific, local congregations of believers in Asia Minor, which is today called Turkey. To see why they are in the order in which they were presented, one merely has to look at the locations of these seven places and see that they all lie on a curved road away from the beach closest to the Isle of Patmos located in the Mediterranean Sea, close to the Aegean Sea between Greece and Turkey, the path a courier would have to take to deliver these messages to all seven.

For more proof, one merely has to look at a correct interpretation of Ephesians 5:25:

Eph 5:25
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
KJV


For what did the Messiah (the Christ) give Himself and die? Did He give Himself and die for an organization or for a corporation? Did He love an organization or a corporation?No! He loved PEOPLE, or more specifically, PERSONS, each one individually! He gave Himself and died for PERSONS, each one individually! He loved and died for YOU, not the collective to which you belong!

The analogy that Paul used of a "body" in 1 Corinthians 12 was to show how the various individuals in a congregation, like "members" of a "body," were to help one another in time of need and to work together toward a common goal. It's like a "finger" of a person's body can scratch the itch on his "nose," or how all the "fingers" and "hands" can work together to perform a task. It's kind of hard for a "finger" in Albuquerque to scratch a "nose" in Timbuktu! It was an analogy that had a LOCAL interpretation!

Thus, the "church" is NOT to be contrasted with Isra'el!

Second, the groups are neither "church vs. Isra'el" nor "believers vs non-believers"; the separation is THREE-way! "Believers vs. unbelieving Isra'elis vs. unbelieving Gentiles," because we are specifically told that there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles IN THE MESSIAH (Gal. 3:28; Eph. 2:13-22)! Paul did NOT say there was no difference between the two OUTSIDE the Messiah! Not everything is a dichotomy. In fact, in Romans 11, we can see that the Jews can be grafted into the Olive Tree a lot easier than the Gentiles are grafted into it since it is "their OWN Olive Tree." So, what is this "Olive Tree?" It's certainly not the "church!" It's ISRA'EL, or rather, Isra'el as it SHOULD have been! It is the Messiah's Kingdom, the same Kingdom over which Sha'uwl (Saul), David and Shlomo (Solomon) ruled!

And, those are just a few of the objections I have with what you said. I'm not against you, but I do want you to consider thoughtfully what you are propagating.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
The "commonwealth of Israel" like Apostle Paul showed in Ephesians 2, is... Christ's Church, a body of many believers made up from ALL.... nations and peoples.

1 Cor 12:13
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(KJV)



What you're adhering to Retrobyter is Orthodox Jewish doctrine from UNBELIEVING Jews who have refused Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.


God's Birthright Promises left the holy lands when the majority of the people of Israel went into captivity and migrated to the north and the west, including the royal sceptre of David's throne. The Birthright went to Joseph's son Ephraim and that's where it stayed, with Ephraim as head of the ten tribes of Israel, removed out of the holy land with the ten tribes around 700 B.C. never to return as a people to this day (1 Chr.5; 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17). That's why there has never been another king of the house of David in Jerusalem since Zedekiah king of Judah.


Christ removing the kingdom of Israel from the unbelieving Jews at Jerusalem:


Matt 21:33-43
33 "Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:


Christ was pulling from Isaiah 5, where God spoke of planting a vineyard as a metaphor for establishing His people of the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) as the "vineyard", and Judah as His pleasant plant.


Matt.21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.'
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?"


Jesus then asked the scribes and Pharisees what the lord of the vineyard will do to those husbandmen when he returns. The Jew's then answer...


41 They say unto Him, "He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons."

The unbelieving Jews Jesus was speaking to pronounced their own... sentence against themselves, how they would be removed as husbandmen of the vineyard (Israel).


42 Jesus saith unto them, "Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
(KJV)


Thus the "kingdom of God" was removed from those husbandmen's care, i.e., the unbelieving Jews, and instead given "to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof".

The 'fruits' are about The Gospel of Jesus Christ to all peoples and nations. Included with the vineyard is God's Birthright that went to Joseph's son Ephraim, head of the ten tribes of Israel scattered to the West. That included the royal sceptre rule of the house of David, plenty of corn and wine, ruling the gates of their enemies, the blessing of a great number of seed as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea, and the preaching of The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Orthodox unbelieving Judah is still angry that Christ did that removal. That's why so many Jews today still refuse to believe this happenned, because they think to get back control of this vineyard of Israel which God removed out of their care because of unbelief.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,882
19,429
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Shabbat shalom, Trekson.

I can't let this go unchallenged. You aren't even aware of the damage such teaching has caused down through the years, and this is not a new teaching but a VERY old one. It's what the Roman church used in the 2nd and 3rd centuries to BURY the Jewishness of the believers and their faith!

First of all, I challenge your concept of the "church." The "church" is NOT a "universal body of believers." That's catholic talk because the word "catholic" MEANS "universal!" Somehow, modern "churches" that identify themselves as "Protestant" have NOT left this concept behind when they "protested" against the Roman Catholic Church" and supposedly came out of it. Even Martin Luther's 95 theses did not cover this. They'll even go so far as to capitalize the word as "Church!"

The word "church," stemming from the Middle English word "chir(i)che," which in turn came from the Old English word "cir(i)ce", which came from the Greek word "kuri(a)kon," simply means "of the Lord."

The word "church" was used in translation for the Greek word "ekkleesia," which is a participle meaning a "called out (group)." Used as a noun, it is more like our gerund, and it is similar in concept to our collective nouns, like "flock" (of sheep or goats), "herd" (of cattle), "school" (of fish), "pride" (of lions), or even a "gaggle" (of geese). Another English word used to translate this Greek word was "assembly," such as in Act 19:32, 39, and 41 when referring to the assembly of people against Paul in Ephesus.

It is neither an organization nor a corporation. It is a collective noun for a gathering of people in a particular location. Thus, these are ONLY local collections of people. For proof of that, one merely has to look at the beginning of each of Paul's epistles or letters to the various congregations, such as the congregation in Korinth, Asia, and the fact that there are several locations in Scripture which talk about the "churches" plural. Revelation 2 and 3 are a perfect example of what I am saying. They are not "various epochs of the church age," as some like to think, but they were seven, specific, local congregations of believers in Asia Minor, which is today called Turkey. To see why they are in the order in which they were presented, one merely has to look at the locations of these seven places and see that they all lie on a curved road away from the beach closest to the Isle of Patmos located in the Mediterranean Sea, close to the Aegean Sea between Greece and Turkey, the path a courier would have to take to deliver these messages to all seven.

For more proof, one merely has to look at a correct interpretation of Ephesians 5:25:

Eph 5:25
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
KJV


For what did the Messiah (the Christ) give Himself and die? Did He give Himself and die for an organization or for a corporation? Did He love an organization or a corporation?No! He loved PEOPLE, or more specifically, PERSONS, each one individually! He gave Himself and died for PERSONS, each one individually! He loved and died for YOU, not the collective to which you belong!

The analogy that Paul used of a "body" in 1 Corinthians 12 was to show how the various individuals in a congregation, like "members" of a "body," were to help one another in time of need and to work together toward a common goal. It's like a "finger" of a person's body can scratch the itch on his "nose," or how all the "fingers" and "hands" can work together to perform a task. It's kind of hard for a "finger" in Albuquerque to scratch a "nose" in Timbuktu! It was an analogy that had a LOCAL interpretation!

Thus, the "church" is NOT to be contrasted with Isra'el!

Second, the groups are neither "church vs. Isra'el" nor "believers vs non-believers"; the separation is THREE-way! "Believers vs. unbelieving Isra'elis vs. unbelieving Gentiles," because we are specifically told that there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles IN THE MESSIAH (Gal. 3:28; Eph. 2:13-22)! Paul did NOT say there was no difference between the two OUTSIDE the Messiah! Not everything is a dichotomy. In fact, in Romans 11, we can see that the Jews can be grafted into the Olive Tree a lot easier than the Gentiles are grafted into it since it is "their OWN Olive Tree." So, what is this "Olive Tree?" It's certainly not the "church!" It's ISRA'EL, or rather, Isra'el as it SHOULD have been! It is the Messiah's Kingdom, the same Kingdom over which Sha'uwl (Saul), David and Shlomo (Solomon) ruled!

And, those are just a few of the objections I have with what you said. I'm not against you, but I do want you to consider thoughtfully what you are propagating.

Good points...

Do you recognize that these small flocks of followers of CHrist in the Spirit are of Israel whether they were previously Jewish or not???
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Retrobyter, I think you're over intellectualizing my intent. When I say the church as a whole is the universal body of believers, I mean just that. Believers are like cells. In many cases, we belong to a smaller local church or "body of Christ". Each member of that "local" body has a significant role to play. However, each local body of believers is part of the greater "whole" body of Christ, what I call the universal church. Every local body is not the complete body of Christ. To complete the "Body of Christ", it takes all the local congregations around the world to do so. That's really all I'm sayin'.

Your words, It's kind of hard for a "finger" in Albuquerque to scratch a "nose" in Timbuktu! It was an analogy that had a LOCAL interpretation!

In the spirit, it's not that hard at all. We can scratch that nose through intercessory prayer or giving to missions or any other way the Holy Spirit leads. When we get to heaven, we're not going to be a bunch of individual "little bodies", orbiting Christ in our own little satellite. We will be the complete Body in one place. We will need the church in Timbukto and all the other little churches around the world to complete the "whole body" that Albuquerque is part of.