The Rapture placement of Revelation 16:15 revealed

[boldncourageous]

2 Timothy 2:23 states, "But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels" or schisms..

No one refutes that there is schisms in the body of Christ over the correct placement of the rapture. Paul tells Timothy to avoid speculations for this very reason. Could it really be that easy in ending the schism? The key would seem then to analyze the Word of God to see if one view is truly built on speculation. Then refuse the foolish and ignorant speculation;

Comparing the foundations of the pre-trib rapture vs. the others:

Pre-tribulation Rapture Scriptural Support

The biggest argument for placement of the rapture of the pre-trib doctrine is the fact that we are not “appointed to wrath.” 1 Thess. 5:9. Because of this argument it absolutely makes since that the rapture would have to take place prior to God’s wrath. So here we understand that the timing of the rapture is given according to the logical reasoning that seems to make since. However, when looking for an actual Scripture to support the claim that the rapture takes place prior to the great tribulation, there is none to be found. You can’t get more speculative that attempting to claim that the rapture takes place in Rev. 4:1, just because that seems to logically fit the view. Therefore the foundation of the pretrib view becomes a matter of precepts that are built upon logical conclusions. As a result of a lack of a single Scripture to support the timing of a rapture prior to the tribulation, there are multiple accusations that the pretrib rapture is not in the Bible, because of this. Often this is taken to believe that the accusation is that the rapture itself is not in the Bible. That argument is easily debunked. Of course, the rapture is in the Bible. What is in question is the placement prior to the tribulation that is in question.

So at this point we currently only have an assumption based upon speculation.

The problem with the logical conclusions is that they are based upon an assumption of what the wrath of God is. Although Rev. 14:9-11 informs us that God’s wrath is Hell, and Rev. 11:15-18 tells us that God’s wrath judges the dead after Jesus rules and reigns forevermore. The assumption remains that God’s wrath is temporal in nature and not Hell. It is true that MAN declares that God’s wrath has come in Rev. 6:16,17, but both Jesus and Paul tells us to let no MAN deceive us. So we still have a mixed message… Is God actually stating that His wrath started at this point in the book of Revelation (Rev. 6:16,17) or is it simply the claim of men? The correct interpretation hinges on whether on not God's wrath is temporal or remains an eternal Hell.

Let’s look at the application: If God’s wrath is temporal and God’s people are not appointed to it, then why are the “tribulation saints” somehow miss that promise? God is not a man that He should lie. If God’s wrath is an eternal Hell, then God’s promise applies to the “tribulation saints” as well, for they too are not appointed to Hell (wrath). Another thing to consider is what ARE we appointed to? Often verse 10 is left out in 1 Thess. 5:9, AND 10. We are appointed to SALVATION and FOREVER living with Him. So our appointment is eternal in nature… interesting. Why is the word “appointment” or “assignment” used here? Those words often are used for a futurist position. When someone is appointed or assigned something it often has a futuristic due date where it becomes reality. It’s amazing the tribulation some of our brothers and sisters have to endure around the world. So serious that often we can’t stand to even hear about it. Yet, they know their assignment is Eternal. That’s what brings them “peace” and “good cheer” in the trial…John 16:33

So often man who is affixed to Earth has his mind on the things of Earth. It is difficult to grasp the reality of the eternal, but with God, He is not temporal minded. And earthquake of Tsunami can instantly kill thousands, and man can make the claim that it is God's wrath. A Saint who has spent their life serving God, can end up dying a long agonizing death of cancer. We know that their appointment is heaven, yet it's ridiculous to consider temporal death God's wrath. Judgement Yes. God's judgement brings about His eternal wrath.

We are not appointed to wrath... 1 Thess. 5:9 The word for wrath in the Greek is "thymos" It is only used 3 times in Revelations... 6:16,17, and 11:18. After Rev. 11 a different word for wrath is used exclusively, and it is defined in Rev. 14:9-11 as Hell…. Eternal fire and brimstone.

In conclusion, the timing of the rapture for the pre-trib view is based entirely upon speculation. That being the case Paul tells us to abandon it completely.
The pre-wrath view has the same temporal wrath issue.


Scriptural basis for the Post-trib rapture

Paul tells us that the rapture is at the last trumpet… 1 Cor. 15:51,52. This gives us a timing to work with. So often this verse is discarded without checking it out fully.

51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The angel actually makes the same claim prior to the 7th trumpet:

Rev. 10:
[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets

This verse is avoided by those who attempt to debunk the last trumpet concept. Their argument is directed generally on chapter 11 of Revelation when the trumpet is actually blown. It is very interesting that the angel declares the word mystery. These verse… 1 Cor. 15,51,52, and Rev. 10:7 are the only verses in the Scripture that mention the mystery of God and the last trumpet. The debunkers attempt to show a ruse of other trumpet verses in the old testament that clearly don’t apply.

But that is not all…

At the 7th trumpet, Rev. 11:15-18, Jesus rules and reigns forevermore. He rewards the righteous….

HELLO! Does that ring a bell?

Rev. 22:12 [12] “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be”

Did you catch that??? His reward is WITH Him when He comes…. At the 7th trumpet He REWARDS.. Therefore that is the point in time in which He also comes.
At this point the mid-trib has it right….

But that’s not all…

When the angel gives John the little book to eat, He swears that time “is no more,” and puts it in the context of the 7th trumpet.

Rev. 10:
[5] And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
[6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is the purpose of John eating the book? To what end? It’s found in the last verse:

[11] And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings

That is a huge commission to someone in their 90’s if he was near the age of Christ when called as a disciple. This vision/ heavenly experience took place in 92 to 95 AD on the island of Patmos while in exile. He spent the rest of his days in Ephesus where he finished the final draft of Revelations and the book of John. He died without any record of prophesying to many peoples, nations and tongues…. EXCEPT…. For the prophesy itself!

Understanding the nature of the seventh trumpet:

1. Time is no more… Rev. 10:6
2. Jesus rules and reigns forevermore… Rev. 11:15-18
3. God wrath IS come, judges the dead… Rev. 11:15-18
(Note the verb "IS" and it’s present tense, it is not "has", or "already", but God’s wrath comes AT the 7th trumpet)
4. Jesus rewards the righteous… Rev. 11:15-18
5. God destroys them that destroy the Earth… Rev. 11:15-18
6. Paul declares the Rapture happens at the last trumpet…. 1 Cor. 15:51,52

If Jesus now rules and reigns forevermore and God destroys those that destroy the Earth, then you simply cannot have an antichrist ruling and reigning chronologically after this.
Throughout the book of Revelation the angels are showing John the revelation and walking him through it, until you get to a section of chapters 12-16. In this section no angels guide him through it. In this section we have the mark of the beast, and the seven bowl/vials judgments. The angel does not return to explain and expound on this section until chapter 17. What/who/How is this portion of the prophesy being presented to John? Unless it IS the book that he just ate!
We know that Jesus rules and reigns forevermore at the end of chapter eleven and therefore this section cannot be happening post 7th trumpet, but rather must be a parallel, or a SECOND prophesy. The angel told John that he would prophesy AGAIN as a result of eating the little book. Therefore the ONLY explanation is that the 12-16 chapters is exactly that; John prophesying again. This second prophesy originates from eating the book. John never had the opportunity to prophesy again to many tribes, nations and kings after his time of exile on Patmos. He was an old man and died shortly afterward. However, this second prophesy IS and will be heard by all the kings, nations, and tribes, when the mark of the beast is implemented and they start wondering why the Saints won’t play along and take the mark. The second prophesy mirrors the first. The seven bowls expound on it's sister prophesy, the seven trumpets. They are one in the same.

That being the case, check out right before the seventh bowl. Jesus declares in Rev. 16:15 its in red!

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame

He warns this just before the last bowl! This is the same warning He gave the CHURCH of Sardis in Rev. 3:1-4. (Why is the church being addressed in this SAME warning chapter 16?)

So here we see Paul declaring that the rapture is at the last trumpet. We see Jesus declaring that the rapture is about to happen right before the last bowl, and we have the Angel showing John that the trumpets and the bowls are one in the same. Jesus rewards the righteous at the 7th trumpet, and declares He comes and His reward is WITH Him.

There is at least three Scriptures that directly point to the rapture at the 7th trumpet. The view is not built upon speculation, but the Word of God

 

[Trekson]

Hi Bold, My eschatology, for now, is pre-wrath and seeing as how you lump pre-wrath together with pre-trib, I doth protest! So, let me offer a different perspective on the subject.

Your words: “The problem with the logical conclusions is that they are based upon an assumption of what the wrath of God is. Although Rev. 14:9-11 informs us that God’s wrath is Hell, and Rev. 11:15-18 tells us that God’s wrath judges the dead after Jesus rules and reigns forevermore. The assumption remains that God’s wrath is temporal in nature and not Hell. It is true that MAN declares that God’s wrath has come in Rev. 6:16,17, but both Jesus and Paul tells us to let no MAN deceive us. So we still have a mixed message… Is God actually stating that His wrath started at this point in the book of Revelation (Rev. 6:16,17) or is it simply the claim of men? The correct interpretation hinges on whether or not God's wrath is temporal or remains an eternal Hell.”

One of the first problems I see is that you’re not recognizing that there are three separate wraths spoken of in Revelation. In Rev. 6, it is the wrath of the Lamb. This is different from the wrath of God. The next wrath is Satan’s wrath upon the church per Rev. 12:17. This results, imo, in the Great Tribulation. The third and final wrath is the wrath of God as shown in Rev. 15:7, which are the vial judgments and are separate from the trumpet judgments of the Lamb’s wrath.

The next problem I see is that you are equating the result of wrath with the acts of wrath itself. First, Rev. 14:9-11, God’s wrath isn’t a one-and-done deal. It’s extended over time with various people and measures. This particular wrath mentioned is only for those of vs. 9 and 11 who have accepted the mark of the beast. It’s not for everyone. It is eternal, but again, the destination (hell) is the end result, not the wrath itself.

Your words: “We are not appointed to wrath... 1 Thess. 5:9 The word for wrath in the Greek is "thymos" It is only used 3 times in Revelations... 6:16,17, and 11:18. After Rev. 11 a different word for wrath is used exclusively, and it is defined in Rev. 14:9-11 as Hell…. Eternal fire and brimstone.”

My Strong’s disagrees with your assessment. It shows that: “thumos” (Gr2372) is used in Rev. 12:12, 14:8,10,19, 15:1,7, 16:1, and 18:3 whereas the other word “orge” (Gr3709) is used in Rev. 6:16,17, 11:18, 16:19 and 19:15. Their definitions are very similar but the difference is a matter of degree, with 2372 a little milder than 3709. Although, I'm not sure how the translators went about deciding which definition went where.

Picture it as kind of a tag-team boxing match. The first trumpet is the “opening bell” and Christ comes out with several, hard, fast and fierce jabs, the 6th trump (bell) closes the round. The next opening “bell” (the 7th trump) passes the next phase of the fight to God the Father who comes out with a series of relentless, devastating roundhouse blows to finish off this particular battle.

Your words: “The pre-wrath view has the same temporal wrath issue.”

Grrr! , I disagree!

Your words: “Paul tells us that the rapture is at the last trumpet… 1 Cor. 15:51,52. This gives us a timing to work with. So often this verse is discarded without checking it out fully.”

51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The angel actually makes the same claim prior to the 7th trumpet

Rev. 10: [7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

This verse is avoided by those who attempt to debunk the last trumpet concept. Their argument is directed generally on chapter 11 of Revelation when the trumpet is actually blown. It is very interesting that the angel declares the word mystery. These verse… 1 Cor. 15,51,52, and Rev. 10:7 are the only verses in the Scripture that mention the mystery of God and the last trumpet. The debunkers attempt to show a ruse of other trumpet verses in the old testament that clearly don’t apply.”

I would say that this is the case here in trying to relate the last trump with the 7th trump of Rev. It just doesn’t fly! First, the “mystery” spoken of by Paul in vs. 51 is NOT the same as the mystery of God. I don't think this verse is saying anything about the sequence of events but it is telling us that just before the 7th angel sounds, the "times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." That Gentiles were also going to be allowed to enter the pathway of salvation is what the "mystery of God" is!

Eph. 3:3-6 - "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

The last trump of 1 Cor. 15 has nothing to do with the 7th trump and everything to do with the The Feast of Trumpets - aka Rosh Hashanah or "Head of the Year". This holiday is celebrated on the 1[SIZE=7.5pt]st[/SIZE] & 2[SIZE=7.5pt]nd[/SIZE] of Tishri, the religious 7[SIZE=7.5pt]th[/SIZE] month and the first month of their "civil" new year. It is celebrated alongside Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. The interval between the last of the spring feasts - Pentecost and the first of the fall feasts - Trumpets corresponds to this present age. Pentecost began the Church age and Trumpets, which will signal the Messiah‘s Second Coming will end it. This is the last "trump" spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thess. 4:16, not the seventh trumpet judgment in Revelations.

The blowing of the trumpet in ancient Israel had three primary functions. The first was to call a solemn assembly, the second, when Israel under Divine direction was to go to war and the third was at the coronation of a new king. There are two major themes associated with The Day of the Lord. The first is deliverance of the righteous and the second is the judgment of the wicked. In connection with His Second Coming, Jesus will first call His own to Himself, the Rapture, and then will go to war against His enemies, concluding with His Coronation as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

This date corresponds on our calendar to September/October. It is also known as Israel‘s "Dark Day". It is the only feast that occurs at the new moon when the primary night light of the heavens is darkened. Amos 5:18-20, Zeph. 1:14-16. As the new moon is darkened so will the heavens be divinely darkened at the future Day of the Lord. Joel 2:31, 3:15 and Rev. 6:12-17. God’s wrath will be on both the world and Israel to prepare her for repentance and her National Day of Atonement, the 6[SIZE=7.5pt]th[/SIZE] feast. At the "last trump", the Lord Himself will blow the trumpet, Zech. 9:14 and not an angel as depicted in Revelations. This last time that God blows the trumpet will signal the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord’s wrath upon the earth. 1Cor. 15:51-52 and 1 Thess. 4:16-17. (from Rosenthal’s, “The Feasts of the Lord”)

Your words: “At the 7th trumpet, Rev. 11:15-18, Jesus rules and reigns forevermore. He rewards the righteous….

Rev. 22:12 [12] “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be”

Did you catch that??? His reward is WITH Him when He comes…. At the 7th trumpet He REWARDS. Therefore that is the point in time in which He also comes.”

Okay, your first verse is not the same as the second verse, imo. The word for “reward” is “misthos” and it can mean for good or bad. In Rev. 11 it means for good but in Rev. 22 it is meant for bad. Not all judgments are “good” judgments. The same word “misthos” is used in this verse but is translated as “wages”.
2 Pet. 2:15 – “Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;” I believe that Rev. 22:12 is depicting the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25, not the Bema Seat judgment of Christ, where believers actually receive their reward which pre-wrath believes is occurring between the time of the rapture and His second physical advent.

Your words: “When the angel gives John the little book to eat, He swears that time “is no more,” and puts it in the context of the 7th trumpet.

Rev. 10:
[5] And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
[6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is the purpose of John eating the book? To what end? It’s found in the last verse:

[11] And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings”

I already gave you earlier what the context of Rev. 10:7 is and I believe your take on it is, “reading” into scripture something which really isn’t there.

Your words: “Understanding the nature of the seventh trumpet:

1. Time is no more… Rev. 10:6 (which means the time of grace has run out)
2. Jesus rules and reigns forevermore… Rev. 11:15-18 (speaking forward in faith, not actually occurring at that moment)
3. God wrath IS come, judges the dead… Rev. 11:15-18 ( I’m not sure about this part as The GWTJ is much farther away in time)
(Note the verb "IS" and it’s present tense, it is not "has", or "already", but God’s wrath comes AT the 7th trumpet)(Yes, meaning His wrath “is about” to come, the same as it is used to describe the wrath of the Lamb in Rev. 6:17
4. Jesus rewards the righteous… Rev. 11:15-18
5. God destroys them that destroy the Earth… Rev. 11:15-18
6. Paul declares the Rapture happens at the last trumpet…. 1 Cor. 15:51,52 (Last, yes, 7th no)

There is no scriptural verification that Paul was aware of the details of John’s vision which happened several years after the death of Paul. So, he was obviously referencing something else which was the fulfillment in time of what the Feast of Trumpets typifies.

Your words: “If Jesus now rules and reigns forevermore and God destroys those that destroy the Earth, then you simply cannot have an antichrist ruling and reigning chronologically after this.”

In fact, the vial judgments which are separate in scale and time from the trumpet judgments specifically mentions the beast (a/c) in 16:10 so in my opinion, this shows that your beliefs may need a little “shoring” up.

Your words: “Throughout the book of Revelation the angels are showing John the revelation and walking him through it, until you get to a section of chapters 12-16. In this section no angels guide him through it. In this section we have the mark of the beast, and the seven bowl/vials judgments. The angel does not return to explain and expound on this section until chapter 17. What/who/How is this portion of the prophesy being presented to John? Unless it IS the book that he just ate!”

Your conclusions aren’t quite accurate. Actually, the only times, that I can find an angel interacting with John is at Rev. 10:9-11 and starting again at 17:1. With the exception of Rev.10:9-11, John is only recording what he sees and hears except for one other short interaction with an “elder” in Rev. 7, who is not an angel. Are there others? Rev. 12-14 should be considered as “sidebar” accounts that are filling in more detail of what has been happening in the previous chapters. Rev. 15 & 16 are prep and the account of the vial judgments which occur after the trumpet judgments. They are not the same!

Your words: “We know that Jesus rules and reigns forevermore at the end of chapter eleven and therefore this section cannot be happening post 7th trumpet, but rather must be a parallel, or a SECOND prophesy.”

That is your opinion, not something that is known. Explained earlier.

Your words: “The angel told John that he would prophesy AGAIN as a result of eating the little book.”

That is just an assumption, not a proven fact.

Your words: “Therefore the ONLY explanation is that the 12-16 chapters is exactly that; John prophesying again. This second prophesy originates from eating the book. John never had the opportunity to prophesy again to many tribes, nations and kings after his time of exile on Patmos. He was an old man and died shortly afterward. However, this second prophesy IS and will be heard by all the kings, nations, and tribes, when the mark of the beast is implemented and they start wondering why the Saints won’t play along and take the mark. The second prophesy mirrors the first. The seven bowls expound on it's sister prophesy, the seven trumpets. They are one in the same.”

There are, in fact, several probable explanations. The trumpets and the bowls are NOT the same!

Your words: “That being the case, check out right before the seventh bowl. Jesus declares in Rev. 16:15 its in red! "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

He warns this just before the last bowl! This is the same warning He gave the CHURCH of Sardis in Rev. 3:1-4. (Why is the church being addressed in this SAME warning chapter 16?)

They are similar but they’re not “the same”. Scroll down a little on this topic page and I offer an alternative theory to Rev. 16:15. It’s an assumption that He is speaking to the church at this point.

Your words: “So here we see Paul declaring that the rapture is at the last trumpet. We see Jesus declaring that the rapture is about to happen right before the last bowl, and we have the Angel showing John that the trumpets and the bowls are one in the same. Jesus rewards the righteous at the 7th trumpet, and declares He comes and His reward is WITH Him. There is at least three Scriptures that directly point to the rapture at the 7th trumpet. The view is not built upon speculation, but the Word of God.”

These are your conclusions based on your studies. I disagree with a lot of them and other people may as well but probably not for the same reasons. In my opinion, if two brothers disagree, it should be done in an “agreeable” fashion with no malice or anger expressed. Just “iron sharpening iron” so that as we learn and heed the voice of the Lord, His truth and not our perception of it, prevails!

 

[boldncourageous]

Hi Bold, My eschatology, for now, is pre-wrath and seeing as how you lump pre-wrath together with pre-trib, I doth protest! So, let me offer a different perspective on the subject.

Your words: “The problem with the logical conclusions is that they are based upon an assumption of what the wrath of God is. Although Rev. 14:9-11 informs us that God’s wrath is Hell, and Rev. 11:15-18 tells us that God’s wrath judges the dead after Jesus rules and reigns forevermore. The assumption remains that God’s wrath is temporal in nature and not Hell. It is true that MAN declares that God’s wrath has come in Rev. 6:16,17, but both Jesus and Paul tells us to let no MAN deceive us. So we still have a mixed message… Is God actually stating that His wrath started at this point in the book of Revelation (Rev. 6:16,17) or is it simply the claim of men? The correct interpretation hinges on whether or not God's wrath is temporal or remains an eternal Hell.”

One of the first problems I see is that you’re not recognizing that there are three separate wraths spoken of in Revelation. In Rev. 6, it is the wrath of the Lamb. This is different from the wrath of God. The next wrath is Satan’s wrath upon the church per Rev. 12:17. This results, imo, in the Great Tribulation. The third and final wrath is the wrath of God as shown in Rev. 15:7, which are the vial judgments and are separate from the trumpet judgments of the Lamb’s wrath.

The next problem I see is that you are equating the result of wrath with the acts of wrath itself. First, Rev. 14:9-11, God’s wrath isn’t a one-and-done deal. It’s extended over time with various people and measures. This particular wrath mentioned is only for those of vs. 9 and 11 who have accepted the mark of the beast. It’s not for everyone. It is eternal, but again, the destination (hell) is the end result, not the wrath itself.

Your words: “We are not appointed to wrath... 1 Thess. 5:9 The word for wrath in the Greek is "thymos" It is only used 3 times in Revelations... 6:16,17, and 11:18. After Rev. 11 a different word for wrath is used exclusively, and it is defined in Rev. 14:9-11 as Hell…. Eternal fire and brimstone.”

My Strong’s disagrees with your assessment. It shows that: “thumos” (Gr2372) is used in Rev. 12:12, 14:8,10,19, 15:1,7, 16:1, and 18:3 whereas the other word “orge” (Gr3709) is used in Rev. 6:16,17, 11:18, 16:19 and 19:15. Their definitions are very similar but the difference is a matter of degree, with 2372 a little milder than 3709. Although, I'm not sure how the translators went about deciding which definition went where.

Picture it as kind of a tag-team boxing match. The first trumpet is the “opening bell” and Christ comes out with several, hard, fast and fierce jabs, the 6th trump (bell) closes the round. The next opening “bell” (the 7th trump) passes the next phase of the fight to God the Father who comes out with a series of relentless, devastating roundhouse blows to finish off this particular battle.

Your words: “The pre-wrath view has the same temporal wrath issue.”

Grrr! , I disagree!

Your words: “Paul tells us that the rapture is at the last trumpet… 1 Cor. 15:51,52. This gives us a timing to work with. So often this verse is discarded without checking it out fully.”

51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The angel actually makes the same claim prior to the 7th trumpet

Rev. 10: [7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

This verse is avoided by those who attempt to debunk the last trumpet concept. Their argument is directed generally on chapter 11 of Revelation when the trumpet is actually blown. It is very interesting that the angel declares the word mystery. These verse… 1 Cor. 15,51,52, and Rev. 10:7 are the only verses in the Scripture that mention the mystery of God and the last trumpet. The debunkers attempt to show a ruse of other trumpet verses in the old testament that clearly don’t apply.”

I would say that this is the case here in trying to relate the last trump with the 7th trump of Rev. It just doesn’t fly! First, the “mystery” spoken of by Paul in vs. 51 is NOT the same as the mystery of God. I don't think this verse is saying anything about the sequence of events but it is telling us that just before the 7th angel sounds, the "times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." That Gentiles were also going to be allowed to enter the pathway of salvation is what the "mystery of God" is!

Eph. 3:3-6 - "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

The last trump of 1 Cor. 15 has nothing to do with the 7th trump and everything to do with the The Feast of Trumpets - aka Rosh Hashanah or "Head of the Year". This holiday is celebrated on the 1[SIZE=7.5pt]st[/SIZE] & 2[SIZE=7.5pt]nd[/SIZE] of Tishri, the religious 7[SIZE=7.5pt]th[/SIZE] month and the first month of their "civil" new year. It is celebrated alongside Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. The interval between the last of the spring feasts - Pentecost and the first of the fall feasts - Trumpets corresponds to this present age. Pentecost began the Church age and Trumpets, which will signal the Messiah‘s Second Coming will end it. This is the last "trump" spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thess. 4:16, not the seventh trumpet judgment in Revelations.

The blowing of the trumpet in ancient Israel had three primary functions. The first was to call a solemn assembly, the second, when Israel under Divine direction was to go to war and the third was at the coronation of a new king. There are two major themes associated with The Day of the Lord. The first is deliverance of the righteous and the second is the judgment of the wicked. In connection with His Second Coming, Jesus will first call His own to Himself, the Rapture, and then will go to war against His enemies, concluding with His Coronation as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

This date corresponds on our calendar to September/October. It is also known as Israel‘s "Dark Day". It is the only feast that occurs at the new moon when the primary night light of the heavens is darkened. Amos 5:18-20, Zeph. 1:14-16. As the new moon is darkened so will the heavens be divinely darkened at the future Day of the Lord. Joel 2:31, 3:15 and Rev. 6:12-17. God’s wrath will be on both the world and Israel to prepare her for repentance and her National Day of Atonement, the 6[SIZE=7.5pt]th[/SIZE] feast. At the "last trump", the Lord Himself will blow the trumpet, Zech. 9:14 and not an angel as depicted in Revelations. This last time that God blows the trumpet will signal the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord’s wrath upon the earth. 1Cor. 15:51-52 and 1 Thess. 4:16-17. (from Rosenthal’s, “The Feasts of the Lord”)

Your words: “At the 7th trumpet, Rev. 11:15-18, Jesus rules and reigns forevermore. He rewards the righteous….

Rev. 22:12 [12] “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be”

Did you catch that??? His reward is WITH Him when He comes…. At the 7th trumpet He REWARDS. Therefore that is the point in time in which He also comes.”

Okay, your first verse is not the same as the second verse, imo. The word for “reward” is “misthos” and it can mean for good or bad. In Rev. 11 it means for good but in Rev. 22 it is meant for bad. Not all judgments are “good” judgments. The same word “misthos” is used in this verse but is translated as “wages”.
2 Pet. 2:15 – “Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;” I believe that Rev. 22:12 is depicting the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25, not the Bema Seat judgment of Christ, where believers actually receive their reward which pre-wrath believes is occurring between the time of the rapture and His second physical advent.

Your words: “When the angel gives John the little book to eat, He swears that time “is no more,” and puts it in the context of the 7th trumpet.

Rev. 10:
[5] And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
[6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is the purpose of John eating the book? To what end? It’s found in the last verse:

[11] And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings”

I already gave you earlier what the context of Rev. 10:7 is and I believe your take on it is, “reading” into scripture something which really isn’t there.

Your words: “Understanding the nature of the seventh trumpet:

1. Time is no more… Rev. 10:6 (which means the time of grace has run out)
2. Jesus rules and reigns forevermore… Rev. 11:15-18 (speaking forward in faith, not actually occurring at that moment)
3. God wrath IS come, judges the dead… Rev. 11:15-18 ( I’m not sure about this part as The GWTJ is much farther away in time)
(Note the verb "IS" and it’s present tense, it is not "has", or "already", but God’s wrath comes AT the 7th trumpet)(Yes, meaning His wrath “is about” to come, the same as it is used to describe the wrath of the Lamb in Rev. 6:17
4. Jesus rewards the righteous… Rev. 11:15-18
5. God destroys them that destroy the Earth… Rev. 11:15-18
6. Paul declares the Rapture happens at the last trumpet…. 1 Cor. 15:51,52 (Last, yes, 7th no)

There is no scriptural verification that Paul was aware of the details of John’s vision which happened several years after the death of Paul. So, he was obviously referencing something else which was the fulfillment in time of what the Feast of Trumpets typifies.

Your words: “If Jesus now rules and reigns forevermore and God destroys those that destroy the Earth, then you simply cannot have an antichrist ruling and reigning chronologically after this.”

In fact, the vial judgments which are separate in scale and time from the trumpet judgments specifically mentions the beast (a/c) in 16:10 so in my opinion, this shows that your beliefs may need a little “shoring” up.

Your words: “Throughout the book of Revelation the angels are showing John the revelation and walking him through it, until you get to a section of chapters 12-16. In this section no angels guide him through it. In this section we have the mark of the beast, and the seven bowl/vials judgments. The angel does not return to explain and expound on this section until chapter 17. What/who/How is this portion of the prophesy being presented to John? Unless it IS the book that he just ate!”

Your conclusions aren’t quite accurate. Actually, the only times, that I can find an angel interacting with John is at Rev. 10:9-11 and starting again at 17:1. With the exception of Rev.10:9-11, John is only recording what he sees and hears except for one other short interaction with an “elder” in Rev. 7, who is not an angel. Are there others? Rev. 12-14 should be considered as “sidebar” accounts that are filling in more detail of what has been happening in the previous chapters. Rev. 15 & 16 are prep and the account of the vial judgments which occur after the trumpet judgments. They are not the same!

Your words: “We know that Jesus rules and reigns forevermore at the end of chapter eleven and therefore this section cannot be happening post 7th trumpet, but rather must be a parallel, or a SECOND prophesy.”

That is your opinion, not something that is known. Explained earlier.

Your words: “The angel told John that he would prophesy AGAIN as a result of eating the little book.”

That is just an assumption, not a proven fact.

Your words: “Therefore the ONLY explanation is that the 12-16 chapters is exactly that; John prophesying again. This second prophesy originates from eating the book. John never had the opportunity to prophesy again to many tribes, nations and kings after his time of exile on Patmos. He was an old man and died shortly afterward. However, this second prophesy IS and will be heard by all the kings, nations, and tribes, when the mark of the beast is implemented and they start wondering why the Saints won’t play along and take the mark. The second prophesy mirrors the first. The seven bowls expound on it's sister prophesy, the seven trumpets. They are one in the same.”

There are, in fact, several probable explanations. The trumpets and the bowls are NOT the same!

Your words: “That being the case, check out right before the seventh bowl. Jesus declares in Rev. 16:15 its in red! "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

He warns this just before the last bowl! This is the same warning He gave the CHURCH of Sardis in Rev. 3:1-4. (Why is the church being addressed in this SAME warning chapter 16?)

They are similar but they’re not “the same”. Scroll down a little on this topic page and I offer an alternative theory to Rev. 16:15. It’s an assumption that He is speaking to the church at this point.

Your words: “So here we see Paul declaring that the rapture is at the last trumpet. We see Jesus declaring that the rapture is about to happen right before the last bowl, and we have the Angel showing John that the trumpets and the bowls are one in the same. Jesus rewards the righteous at the 7th trumpet, and declares He comes and His reward is WITH Him. There is at least three Scriptures that directly point to the rapture at the 7th trumpet. The view is not built upon speculation, but the Word of God.”

These are your conclusions based on your studies. I disagree with a lot of them and other people may as well but probably not for the same reasons. In my opinion, if two brothers disagree, it should be done in an “agreeable” fashion with no malice or anger expressed. Just “iron sharpening iron” so that as we learn and heed the voice of the Lord, His truth and not our perception of it, prevails!

Thanks for pointing out my oversight of the "thurmos." Should have looked up the info instead of attempting to recall from memory. I did swap the two as well. No matter thought, no change in point. My point that the word for wrath used in 1 Thess. 5:9 is used in the context of "Hell." ("Orge" is the corrected word in question). Used in Rev. 6:16,17, 11:18 (which is the last trumpet), 16:19 (which is the last bowl), and 19:15 (which is the same event at the last trumpet and last bowl.) Thus confirming my point. The wrath of God is Hell that judges the dead.


I did find it amazing that you can take the events that happen at the 7th trumpet, and twist them into not happening at the time reported as happening. WOW! 2. Jesus rules and reigns forevermore… Rev. 11:15-18 (speaking forward in faith, not actually occurring at that moment) With that type of interpretation, all I can say is WOW! My Strong's is stating that it is "done", "finished","ended", "fulfilled", "married" as in past tense (G1096). You can have a Jesus ruling and reigning forevermore, and the antichrist reigning two chapters later.

You State: Okay, your first verse is not the same as the second verse, imo. The word for “reward” is “misthos” and it can mean for good or bad. In Rev. 11 it means for good but in Rev. 22 it is meant for bad. Not all judgments are “good” judgments. The same word “misthos” is used in this verse but is translated as “wages”

Yep, it's the same word in the Greek. No matter how you look at it, good or bad. Rev. 22:12 declares that He rewards EVERY MAN according to his work. Apparently you missed the "every man" part. That includes the good and the bad. Jesus rewards the righteous, and (rewards) judges the dead with His wrath at the 7th trumpet. The timing IS the 7th trumpet. His reward is with Him, good and bad. I don't even need to pick and choose or be bias on which one I want it to be, good or bad, it's all inclusive. Either way it is a total fulfillment at the 7th trumpet when He comes WITH HIS REWARD. Jesus rewards when He comes, righteous, and unrighteous. The point is that His reward is WITH Him, and THIS is the moment in time.

You STATE: Your conclusions aren’t quite accurate. Actually, the only times, that I can find an angel interacting with John is at Rev. 10:9-11 and starting again at 17:1. With the exception of Rev.10:9-11

John's guidance through Rev..

Rev. 4:1 ... I will shew thee
Rev. 5:2 ....angel proclaimed (General proclamation, not necessarily to John)
Rev. 6:1 ...one of the four beasts saying, Come and see
Rev. 6:3 ....I heard the second beast say, Come and see
Rev. 6:5 ...I heard the third beast say, Come and see
Rev. 6:7 ...I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see
Rev. 7:2,3 ...And I saw another angel ...Saying...
Rev. 7:13 ...one of the elders answered, saying unto me...
Rev. 7:14 John dialogues with the elder
Rev. 8-9 John observes the angels
Rev. 10:4 ...voice from heaven... commands John
Rev. 10:6 ... angel swears
Rev. 10:8 ...voice from heaven... commands John
Rev. 10:9 John dialogues with the angel
Rev. 10:11 angel give personal prophesy to John
Rev. 11:1,2 angel commands John
Rev. 12-16 NO PERSONAL GUIDANCE
Rev. 12:10 Loud voice from heaven makes general declaration
Rev. 14:7 angel make general proclaimation
Rev. 17:1 angel...talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither
Rev. 17:7 the angel said unto me
Rev. 17:15 the angel said unto me
Rev. 19:6-9 And he saith unto me
Rev. 19:10 he said unto me
Rev. 21:5 he said unto me
Rev. 21:9 talked with me, saying,
Rev. 21:10 he carried me away in the spirit
Rev. 22:1 And he shewed me
Rev. 22:9 saith he unto me
Rev. 22:10 saith he unto me... and finishes the chapter declaring to John

Yep my conclusion of the little book is the guidance of chapters 12-16. As a result of John eating the book, he is told that he would prophesy again. You didn't offer any thoughts on the entire purpose of very revealing Chapter 10. You suggest that the swearing angel suggests something other than the end of time. What "delay" would he be referring to? Your claim that Jesus rules and reigns forevermore being futuristic doesn't fly, the elders declare that He "hast reigned" in this passage. In other words, the evidence of an end of time is more than just strong here. You've got to turn a blind eye to deny it.


I don't have a beef with the pre-wrath view. I'm called as an evangelist to the weedy and stony soils. Pretrib falls into the stony soil IMO... Mark 4:18. That's my main focus. However, my understanding is that pre-wrath believers were once pretrib believers and are now disgruntled. The pretrib teaching has been taught for so long that all the assumptions, opinions, conjecture and speculations run so deep that it takes a long time for all of those twistings of the Word to be addressed. It's been over 25 years sense I first had my eyes opened to the brainwashing, and I still come across false ideas and assumptions that I thought was the biblical, that simply isn't. If Peter, who taught the second coming to the church, tells us that concerning Paul's writings in light of eschatology, gets twisted by the unlearned and unstable, as they do all of Scripture....2 Peter 3:10-16, then the twistings run very deep.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Bold, I’m kind of a stickler for detail and when you say (the highlighted part below), I just needed to verify. So let’s start with the “walk through”.

Your words from post #1: “Throughout the book of Revelation the angels are showing John the revelation and walking him through it, until you get to a section of chapters 12-16. In this section no angels guide him through it.

My words from post #2” “Your conclusions aren’t quite accurate. Actually, the only times, that I can find an angel interacting with John is at Rev. 10:9-11 and starting again at 17:1. With the exception of Rev.10:9-11, John is only recording what he sees and hears except for one other short interaction with an “elder” in Rev. 7, who is not an angel. Are there others? Rev. 12-14 should be considered as “sidebar” accounts that are filling in more detail of what has been happening in the previous chapters. Rev. 15 & 16 are prep and the account of the vial judgments which occur after the trumpet judgments. They are not the same!”

You listed 30 verses in Rev. The first 13 verses listed show no direct interaction with an angel until Rev. 10:9 (as I said). The point is, that up to Rev. 10:9, it could be said that John didn’t receive any “personal guidance” in the way you want to be significant enough to the point that you see Rev. 12-16 as not having any which you also believe is significant. Then we have Rev. 11: 1-2 which is a continuation of the same conversation from Rev. 10:9-11.
Again, we have no “personal” interaction with an angel from that point until Rev. 17 (as I said)!

Your words: “Yep my conclusion of the little book is the guidance of chapters 12-16. As a result of John eating the book, he is told that he would prophesy again.

I question the highlighted part as the reason why John would prophesy again. It doesn’t make sense that he would be told to seal up what the seven thunders said (vs. 4) and then “reveal” it soon after.

Your words from post #1: “Therefore the ONLY explanation is that the 12-16 chapters is exactly that; John prophesying again. This second prophesy originates from eating the book. John never had the opportunity to prophesy again to many tribes, nations and kings after his time of exile on Patmos. He was an old man and died shortly afterward. However, this second prophesy IS and will be heard by all the kings, nations, and tribes, when the mark of the beast is implemented and they start wondering why the Saints won’t play along and take the mark. The second prophesy mirrors the first. The seven bowls expound on it's sister prophesy, the seven trumpets. They are one in the same.”

I’m trying to show you that, that isn’t the “only” explanation. John never had the opportunity to “prophesy” a first time, let alone “again”. If there is a “second” prophecy, how is it different from the first as in, its “audience” ability to hear it? The word “again” in the Greek, implies a “repetitive motion” so as to mean, “as you were before” or “continuing on” NOT a separate “second” prophecy! So, I’ll claim that the only time anyone in any generation “hears” this prophecy will be by reading the Book of Revelation!

As far as them being “one in the same”, they are too different to logically make that claim. It’s your way of trying to “force” scripture to adapt to your theology.

Now back to your claim that John didn’t receive any “guidance” of Rev. 12-16. Well, that’s not exactly true. An argument could be given that in Rev. 17, an angel is explaining, in more detail, the vision John had of the beast back in Rev. 13. It could also be said that John had the same interaction with voices, angels, etc. in Rev. 12-16 as he did in Rev. 5-9, except for the short talk with an elder in Rev. 7.

Your words: “You didn't offer any thoughts on the entire purpose of very revealing Chapter 10. You suggest that the swearing angel suggests something other than the end of time. What "delay" would he be referring to?

When the angel is saying “there should be time no longer”, in my opinion, he is saying that the “times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” harkening back to Rom. 11:25 and other passages that reference that time. The age of grace is over. The “mystery of God” is finished which was, that Gentiles were offered salvation as well, as I showed you with that Eph. vs.

In Rev. 10:11 the angel is saying that there is more to be shown, not that John is going to see everything through the trumpets, again
Your claim that Jesus rules and reigns forevermore being futuristic doesn't fly, the elders declare that He "hast reigned" in this passage. In other words, the evidence of an end of time is more than just strong here. You've got to turn a blind eye to deny it.”

That’s not true either. The word “hast” in most versions is changed to “have begun” in Rev. 11:17 but there are too many ways the word “hast” can be translated to make a theological issue over it. Hasn’t Christ always ruled and reigned? To me the word “shall” in vs. 15, implies a future, not present tense. If it was meant to be present tense, I think the word “will” would have been used. If you remember how faith is described in Heb. 11:1, than it’s not a stretch to see them “speaking forward in faith” to a near fulfillment of reality.

Your words: “I did find it amazing that you can take the events that happen at the 7th trumpet, and twist them into not happening at the time reported as happening. WOW! 2. Jesus rules and reigns forevermore… Rev. 11:15-18http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/Rev. 11.15-18 (speaking forward in faith, not actually occurring at that moment) With that type of interpretation, all I can say is WOW! My Strong's is stating that it is "done", "finished","ended", "fulfilled", "married" as in past tense (G1096). You can have a Jesus ruling and reigning forevermore, and the antichrist reigning two chapters later.”

I think you meant “can’t” and that’s my point. Rev. 11:15-18 is pointing to the near future, not something that is a done deal. There are just way too many prophecies that are given after Rev. 11, that don’t “tie in” with any of the trumpets for them to be part of the same “prophecy”.

Your words: “My point that the word for wrath used in 1 Thess. 5:9 is used in the context of "Hell."

“Hell” is not a given definition in either Gr2372 or Gr 3709. The RESULT of His wrath may end up with many in hell, but it’s not the definition of any part of God’s wrath.

Your words: “Yep, it's the same word in the Greek. No matter how you look at it, good or bad. Rev. 22:12 declares that He rewards EVERY MAN according to his work. Apparently you missed the "every man" part. That includes the good and the bad. Jesus rewards the righteous, and (rewards) judges the dead with His wrath at the 7th trumpet. The timing IS the 7th trumpet. His reward is with Him, good and bad. I don't even need to pick and choose or be bias on which one I want it to be, good or bad, it's all inclusive. Either way it is a total fulfillment at the 7th trumpet when He comes WITH HIS REWARD. Jesus rewards when He comes, righteous, and unrighteous. The point is that His reward is WITH Him, and THIS is the moment in time.”

No, I didn’t miss the “every man” part. The description does fit the sheep and goat judgment, so I guess it’s not all bad. I stand corrected. However, as far as believers go, I believe we will be judged after the rapture but before He comes down from Armageddon, so it’ a timing thing.

[SIZE=12pt]One thing that may be helpful to understanding your point of view would be if you could describe the time frame you are viewing this in. Mine is within the context of the 70th week, but as you believe that was already fulfilled, I’m curious as to how you see the fulfillments in what span of time?[/SIZE]

 

[boldncourageous]

Yes I wish I could respond without loads of interruptions and in solitude, but that is not the case, I had intended to state more that just an angel guiding John through the revelation. I'm sure you will find grammatical errors and poor sentence structure. I am sorry for that.

You State: I question the highlighted part as the reason why John would prophesy again. It doesn’t make sense that he would be told to seal up what the seven thunders said (vs. 4) and then “reveal” it soon after.

You are absolutely correct that doesn't make sense for him to reveal the 7 thunders.... EVER.

It is true that the sane angel revealed the unrevealed 7 thunders, and they are a mute point, however, the dialogue concerning eating the book is in the context of the 7th trumpet.

The time of the seventh trumpet.... that the entire mystery of God should be FINISHED.... Verse 7

You State: As far as them being “one in the same”, they are too different to logically make that claim.

Are you speaking of the trumpets vs. the bowls? We know the abomination of desolation is at the same time as that of Jacob's trouble, because it is the worst time ever for Israel. There can only be one worst time ever event. Yet without that tie, the prophesies don't have common ground. The bowls and trumpets have very common ground.

Your words: It’s your way of trying to “force” scripture to adapt to your theology.

That could be accused of anyone.... such as yourself... ignoring the fact the Jesus rules and reigns forevermore, or that God rewards every man according to his works at the last trumpet. I'm not adapting, just simply not ignoring the facts concerning the 7th trumpet. So many other facts occur at this point, like Jesus taking His great power and reigned at the 7th trumpet for example.

I believe you will find that what the angel swore is not that there will not longer be a "delay", but that time "no longer shall be." If you are a stickler for accuracy, that would be a good point to get right. The actual Greek doesn't give any indication of the "delay" notion. What we are dialoging about hinges on the Greek that is not our first language. Also the fact that at the 7th trumpet Jesus rules and reigns forevermore. The fact that the verb is not present imperfect, but rather past tense does not create a theology I need to adapt to, but rather expose the truth. The verb in question is "are become" in Rev. 11:15. The actual correct understanding of these two verses make all the difference in the world. If these two verses are what I state they are then I'm exposing the truth, and not adapting a theology. If they are not then I need to reconsider. If however they are as I state, then the points that I've made concerning the 7th trumpet being the end need to be considered and applied as fact. Are you a stickler enough to get to the bottom of it? Or are you letting it ride because it adapts to your theology? I've used the resources that I have available and am sticking to my guns. It is clear to me that the 7th trumpet is the end of time.


You state:
“Hell” is not a given definition in either Gr2372 or Gr 3709. The RESULT of His wrath may end up with many in hell, but it’s not the definition of any part of God’s wrath.

As I pointed out on the original post.... Rev. 14:9-11 defines wrath.. thumos... as fire and brimstone,... in the presence of His angels, ...and his torment will be forever and ever. That's not Websters, but the definition is eternal in nature..

And our assignment is eternal...1 Thess. 5:9,10 yes, I am making a point that apples are not oranges here. The common assumption is that the Scripture is speaking of a temporal assignment. So the assumption is temporal, but our assignment is eternal.

When God's wrath "orge" is poured out, and is mentioned by someone other that the earthly temporal minded man (Rev. 6:16,17), it is Rev. 11:18 where God judges the dead. Interesting that the same word is used at the 7th bowl as well!

Your words:
[SIZE=12pt]One thing that may be helpful to understanding your point of view would be if you could describe the time frame you are viewing this in. Mine is within the context of the 70th week, but as you believe that was already fulfilled, I’m curious as to how you see the fulfillments in what span of time?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]That's a long one, but in short...[/SIZE]
Rev. 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. That in itself blows away a 2000 year delay.

[SIZE=12pt]4 horsemen[/SIZE] =4 world conquests

White = Roman Catholicism, Crusaders and the like
Red = Communism
Black = Nazism
Green = Environmentalism includes abortions (consider the # of abortions, would God fail to address that amount of death?)
5th seal already begun
6th seal yet to happen
7trumpets yet to be realized

Second prophesy

Rev. 12 = birth of Jesus and the early church

sign in the heaven 'woman' EXACTLY the same as what the wisemen saw.... see "the star of Bethlehem" popular around Christmas time, and shown in many churches. (I think this link is correct)

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=star+of+bethlehem+documentary&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

Sign in heaven... dragon... unknown

7-10 Satan falling from heaven... starting with the disciples going out 2x2 and early church casting out demons

11-12 Early church not loving their life to the death

14-17 70 AD dispersal of the church to the ends of the Earth Times, Time, and half a time Same as Daniel 12

Mark of the beast = overlapping the 5th seal

7 bowls same as 7 trumpets.

That's the nutshell.

How can anyone consider the 70th week futuristic? Your argument suggests that the Messiah is the prince to come. Yet, your proof to show the person as Messiah and not Titus as the prince (son of the Roman Emperor), was turned out to be no more that because you said so. The 2000 year gap is so obviously conjured.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, boldncourageous and Trekson.

Guys, that verse has NOTHING to do with the “Rapture!” PERIOD! Look at its context:

Revelation 16:12-17
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. ...
KJV

Yeshua` is NOT talking to good people, here! He is talking to the armies who are being assembled for Har-Megiddown or Tel Megiddo! He’s warning them that HE WILL STEAL THEIR CLOTHES! Why? To give them an excuse for not going to the battle! It’s kinda hard to fight a battle in your underwear without your uniforms, weapons, or armor! It’s God’s grace (and sense of humor) to give them one more chance to avoid the otherwise inevitable!

 

[boldncourageous]

Shalom, boldncourageous and Trekson.

Guys, that verse has NOTHING to do with the “Rapture!” PERIOD! Look at its context:

Revelation 16:12-17
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. ...
KJV

Yeshua` is NOT talking to good people, here! He is talking to the armies who are being assembled for Har-Megiddown or Tel Megiddo! He’s warning them that HE WILL STEAL THEIR CLOTHES! Why? To give them an excuse for not going to the battle! It’s kinda hard to fight a battle in your underwear without your uniforms, weapons, or armor! It’s God’s grace (and sense of humor) to give them one more chance to avoid the otherwise inevitable!

Rev. 3
[1] And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
[2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
[4] Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Have you thought of being a fiction writer? Your theory doesn't fly. It's the same message as to the church of Sardis. True, a lot of church goers are evil, but the warning is to those who have ears to hear. God's word does not fall to the ground void. The people who don't have ears to hear are not the Shepard's sheep.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The horrors of not being included in the supposed Rapture of 16:15. You're not damned to Hell nor subject to God's Wrath: you walk around naked. Now wait a minute... is that so bad? Didn't that homosexual guy do that on the first Survivor television show? Do you think a bunch of wicked fornicators are really going to worry about not having any clothes?

No, the verse is for the Remnant Jews being shepherded through the rest of the one 'seven.'

The Rapture took place previously with Jesus on the clouds reaping the earth in chapter 14 - and this from the parallel account of the rise and fall of the anti-Christ in chapters 13 through 16 inclusive. This parallel account just details the one 'seven.' The first half is in chapter 13. The Day of the Lord is covered in chapter 14. Skipping over the Trumpet Judgments previously enumerated in the broad overview of the end-times in chapters 4-11 (exclusive of the 11:1-13), chapter 15 introduces the Bowl Judgments as last, and chapter 16 lists them.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Bold, Your words: “Yes I wish I could respond without loads of interruptions and in solitude, but that is not the case, I had intended to state more that just an angel guiding John through the revelation. I'm sure you will find grammatical errors and poor sentence structure. I am sorry for that.”

I don’t concern myself with grammar or sentence structure. My concern is only the accuracy of the topic in discussion.

Your words: “ You are absolutely correct that doesn't make sense for him to reveal the 7 thunders.... EVER. It is true that the sane angel revealed the unrevealed 7 thunders, and they are a mute point, however, the dialogue concerning eating the book is in the context of the 7th trumpet.”

I believe that what the seven thunders said was contained in the little book.

Your words: “We know the abomination of desolation is at the same time as that of Jacob's trouble, because it is the worst time ever for Israel. There can only be one worst time ever event. Yet without that tie, the prophesies don't have common ground. The bowls and trumpets have very common ground.”

How do we “know that? I don’t believe the a of d is an event or a period of time. It is one single thing and I will explain it in another post.

Your words: “I believe you will find that what the angel swore is not that there will not longer be a "delay", but that time "no longer shall be." If you are a stickler for accuracy, that would be a good point to get right. The actual Greek doesn't give any indication of the "delay" notion.”

I don’t think I ever mentioned there being a delay. From your post #3: “You didn't offer any thoughts on the entire purpose of very revealing Chapter 10. You suggest that the swearing angel suggests something other than the end of time. What "delay" would he be referring to?” Actually, in the KJV, the quote is “should be time no longer” and as I’ve explained it has nothing to do with when Christ shall reign, just that the age of grace is over and Gentiles have “time no longer” to repent. That is why the wrath of God (the vials) is so devastating to the earth.

Your words: “When God's wrath "orge" is poured out, and is mentioned by someone other that the earthly temporal minded man (Rev. 6:16,17), it is Rev. 11:18 where God judges the dead. Interesting that the same word is used at the 7th bowl as well!”

Let’s look at where the word “orge” is used: in Rev. 6:16,17, 11:18, 16:19 and 19:15. What is the common denominator? They signal a change in scope of judgments. In Rev. 6, the word is introducing The Day of the Lord at the 6th seal and the end of the seals and the beginning of the trumpet judgments with the opening of the 7th seal and in Rev. 11, the end of the trumpets and the beginning of the vial judgments (with some sidebar accounts in between). In Rev. 16:19, it is signifying the end of the vial judgments and the beginning of the destruction of Babylon. In Rev. 19:15, it is the beginning of Armageddon, the next and final leg of this part of God’s wrath and the end of Satan’s rule.

Regarding your time span. I’ve heard this before and it was popularized by a guy whose name I can’t remember at the moment, something Irvine, or Irving. I do totally disagree with this partial preterist view so we have less in common than I thought.

Your words: “How can anyone consider the 70th week futuristic? Your argument suggests that the Messiah is the prince to come. Yet, your proof to show the person as Messiah and not Titus as the prince (son of the Roman Emperor), was turned out to be no more that because you said so. The 2000 year gap is so obviously conjured.”

The highlighted part is an errant assumption on your part and couldn’t be farther from the truth. I’ll post a couple of articles on the abomination of desolation and Dan. 9, that imo, shows that 70AD was not the 70th week.

 

[boldncourageous]

The horrors of not being included in the supposed Rapture of 16:15. You're not damned to Hell nor subject to God's Wrath: you walk around naked. Now wait a minute... is that so bad? Didn't that homosexual guy do that on the first Survivor television show? Do you think a bunch of wicked fornicators are really going to worry about not having any clothes?

No, the verse is for the Remnant Jews being shepherded through the rest of the one 'seven.'

The Rapture took place previously with Jesus on the clouds reaping the earth in chapter 14 - and this from the parallel account of the rise and fall of the anti-Christ in chapters 13 through 16 inclusive. This parallel account just details the one 'seven.' The first half is in chapter 13. The Day of the Lord is covered in chapter 14. Skipping over the Trumpet Judgments previously enumerated in the broad overview of the end-times in chapters 4-11 (exclusive of the 11:1-13), chapter 15 introduces the Bowl Judgments as last, and chapter 16 lists them.

With this account, several points are ignored.... The angel swears that time is no more....Rev. 10:6, The mystery of God is finish...vs. 7, John prophesies again last vs....Jesus rules and reigns forevermore...11:15, God rewards the righteous...11:18... and the dead, and that when He comes His reward is WITH Him... Rev. 22:12.

The harvest at the end of the age is what you are referring to in Rev. 14. When one like the Son of Man appears in the clouds. I believe that is the battle of Armageddon.
Which is also mentioned just prior to the last bowl. Rev. 16:16. At this point they are just gathered... not yet engaged. At the time of Rev. 14, the blood is up to the horse's bridles.

We don't have a timeframe as to how long the bowls and the trumpets take to be accomplished. Instant or years is unknown. I lean toward it happening very fast. However, they could overlap each other and take years. Fukushima has a lot to do with the Pacific Ocean dying. It is serious and already occurring and could be the 2nd trumpet/ 2nd bowl judgement. If it's not part of the judgments then it's too big to be ignored. The sea life on the West coast is dying off at alarming rates. The 6th trumpet/bowl judgment upon the great river Euphrates, of it drying up has already taken place once, and can happen at any point because of the dams in place that control the water flow. Not to mention the latest concern with ISIL having control of it for a short period of time.

Rev. 3
[1] And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
[2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
[4] Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Have you thought of being a fiction writer? Your theory doesn't fly. It's the same message as to the church of Sardis. True, a lot of church goers are evil, but the warning is to those who have ears to hear. God's word does not fall to the ground void. The people who don't have ears to hear are not the Shepard's sheep.

Convicted about my fiction writer comment, Retro... It was crude, and I apologize.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

With this account, several points are ignored.... The angel swears that time is no more....Rev. 10:6,

No, in an Millennial view, time still goes on - which would make the angel's pronouncement a colloquial euphemism.

The mystery of God is finish...vs. 7,

Nope. And it is just the mystery - not everything. And it is as He spoke to His prophets - which renders yet another legal twist on what you might wish to conclude. -- 7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.

So the end is not in chapter 10.

John prophesies again last vs....Jesus rules and reigns forevermore...

No, John must prophesy again. --11 And they *said to me, "You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings." This calls into question when John had this vision which he wrote down late in the first century A.D.

On your second point, this reverts back to the timeline John had previously established in the broad overview, and it comes after the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses. With the defeat of the anti-Christ at Armageddon (he is captured - not immediately destroyed) Jesus is now ruling on the earth - as it is in Heaven.

Neither of these two are germane to 16:15 as 16:15 comes before Armageddon's looming battle in verse 16.

God rewards the righteous...11:18... and the dead, and that when He comes His reward is WITH Him... Rev. 22:12.

Two separate accounts of about the same thing - again, it has nothing to do with 16:15 which is from another parallel account with its own end in 16:18-21.

The harvest at the end of the age is what you are referring to in Rev. 14. When one like the Son of Man appears in the clouds. I believe that is the battle of Armageddon.

I agree the Harvest Rapture is depicted in Revelation 14:14-16. In the linear account of the one 'seven' in chapters 13-16 inclusive, it is not Armageddon because it is yet to happen. In between come the Trumpet Judgments starting with the first Trumpet partially seen in 14:17-20 which involves the blood on the Day of the Lord's Wrath - the rest of the Trumpets (not specifically listed because they were previously in the broad overview of the end-times in chapters 4-11 exclusive of 11:1-13) because the Bowl Judgments come last - and the first six Bowl Judgments - which must take some time in order to be effective in punishing the wicked.

So I think your belief is incorrect.

Which is also mentioned just prior to the last bowl. Rev. 16:16. At this point they are just gathered... not yet engaged. At the time of Rev. 14, the blood is up to the horse's bridles.

The timing is important. If the angel in Rev 14:17-20 is involved with the Day of the Lord's Wrath with the first Trumpet which has blood and fire - then there is a considerable amount of time until the last of God's Wrath plays out because the fifth Trumpet, the first Woe, by itself takes five months to accomplish.

Furthermore, to refute your contention, the blood is outside "the city" which would centralize on Jerusalem - which itself is far away from Har Meggido - a mountain in the plain of Ephraim. We also have to defer to their culture which used hyperbole to get its points across for the amount of blood mentioned. There will be an enormous amount of bloodshed.

We don't have a timeframe as to how long the bowls and the trumpets take to be accomplished. Instant or years is unknown. I lean toward it happening very fast.

The fifth Trumpet takes five months to accomplish for the first Woe.

Likewise, we don't know how long the war takes, but weeks and months is likely.

Even then, the first Trumpet's destruction could literally cripple the world for a year or more before the second Trumpet need sound to foil their recovery. For instance, with God's Wrath, mountains will smoke. (Ps 104:32; 144:5). We also know the Yellowstone caldera, a huge volcano, is about to blow geologically speaking. If that caldera blows, it will know America into a double crisis with the devastation of its midwest crop and the ash would short out the power grid.

Even with the Bowl Judgments - happening very fast means nothing. I can go without water for hours and bake under intense heat and light. When it goes on for days - then you have extreme distress.

However, they could overlap each other and take years.

No, the Trumpets are sequential, and the Bowl Judgments come last, so they too are sequential. Any overlap in exegesis is to correct a faulty eschatological timeline.

Fukushima has a lot to do with the Pacific Ocean dying. It is serious and already occurring and could be the 2nd trumpet/ 2nd bowl judgement.

No because then the first Trumpet must have sounded and seventh Seal broken, so the Great Multitude must be Heaven - and none of those are the case.

If it's not part of the judgments then it's too big to be ignored. The sea life on the West coast is dying off at alarming rates.

That will be nothing compared to the loss of life when the sea turns to blood and everything in the sea dies.

The 6th trumpet/bowl judgment upon the great river Euphrates, of it drying up has already taken place once, and can happen at any point because of the dams in place that control the water flow. Not to mention the latest concern with ISIL having control of it for a short period of time.

I don't think rivers stop modern military machines. I think the river Euphrates refers to how Babylon was taken offensively by defeating its greatest defense. Likewise, by undermining the flow of information the North has in which it conducts war without the fog of war - and so multiplies its force effectiveness - a way could be paved for the East to join the South in battling the North.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, boldncourageous.

Rev. 3
[1] And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
[2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
[4] Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Have you thought of being a fiction writer? Your theory doesn't fly. It's the same message as to the church of Sardis. True, a lot of church goers are evil, but the warning is to those who have ears to hear. God's word does not fall to the ground void. The people who don't have ears to hear are not the Shepard's sheep.

...

Convicted about my fiction writer comment, Retro... It was crude, and I apologize.

No worries. See, I believe that ALL theological viewpoints are ultimately “fiction.” ONLY the Scriptures are reality. It’s our INTERPRETATIONS of those Scriptures that give rise to (often ridiculous) opinions.

Frankly, it is NOT the same message as that sent to the Messianic Community at Sardis. While it may seem SIMILAR since it uses a few words that are the same (at least in English), it’s not the SAME! Furthermore, it’s not even the same group of people OR the SAME TIME PERIOD!

Btw, He’s a “Shepherd” as a “herd(er)” of “she(e)p!"

 

[boldncourageous]

I'm a foundation guy. I've poured 1000's of yards of concrete as a profession. It is true, I do not have a critical eye for the window dressings, however, I wouldn't build a house on a foundation that isn't going to last. The foundation is what I see as critical.

What has been ignored as foundational material is:

at the 7th trumpet a list of things happen that define the moment.

1) Jesus rules and reigns forevermore
Fact: you cannot have Jesus ruling and reigning forevermore and the antichrist ruling two chapters later chronologically.
2) the righteous are rewarded.
That's what happens after the track meet is over and the races are complete..... finished.
3) the dead are judged (rewarded)
4) Jesus declares that His reward is with Him when He comes Rev. 22:12... He rewards at the 7th trumpet, for the finished work of every man, good or bad.
5) The mystery of God is finished at the 7th trumpet.... Rev. 10:7
6) Paul declares a mystery of God, that at the last trumpet the rapture would take place...1 Cor. 15:51,52
7) Time is no more or (the delay is no longer as some incorrect translations state, but what is that which was delayed? the mystery now complete at the 7th trumpet)
8) God took His great power and hath reigned

This happens at the 7th trumpet.

All of the these facts point to one thing... completion. This completion has been ignored by the responses.

These facts are not my opinion, or something that I conjured up. They are not filled with speculation, but direct from the Word of God.

The reason that people cannot seem to address the completed finished work of God at this point is because it doesn't fit their doctrine. But the facts remain even though the Word is ignored.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Bold,
Your words: “I'm a foundation guy. I've poured 1000's of yards of concrete as a profession. It is true, I do not have a critical eye for the window dressings, however, I wouldn't build a house on a foundation that isn't going to last. The foundation is what I see as critical.”

I can appreciate your point of view, however, the problem is, you’re confusing the completion of the foundation with the completion of the whole structure of prophecy. The job isn’t done when the foundation is. Your part might be done but the “whole” is not and that’s what we must keep our eyes on.

Your words: “What has been ignored as foundational material is: at the 7th trumpet a list of things happen that define the moment.”

Some do and some don’t.

1) Jesus rules and reigns forevermore spoken in faith for the very soon fulfillment. One can’t equate time in heaven with time on earth. What may be a couple of minutes in heaven time can be a period of years in earth time. These words are being spoken in heaven, in heaven time.

Fact: you cannot have Jesus ruling and reigning forevermore and the antichrist ruling two chapters later chronologically. Yes you can when you consider the difference in time between heaven and earth. Let’s say I have a disease and by faith I claim my healing. If it doesn’t arrive instantaneously, does that mean I’m not healed? No! I need to keep holding on to the “substance” of my healing while “seeing” myself healed even though the “evidence” is not plain to see at the present time! (Heb. 11:1) That is what “faith” is and that is what is occurring in heaven.

2) the righteous are rewarded. The scripture does NOT say they are rewarded (past tense) just that the time has come (present/future tense) for them “to be” rewarded. Tense is everything here.

That's what happens after the track meet is over and the races are complete..... finished.

3) the dead are judged (rewarded) The scripture does NOT say they are rewarded (past tense) just that the time has come (present/future tense) for them “to be” rewarded. Tense is everything here.

4) Jesus declares that His reward is with Him when He comes Rev. 22:12... He rewards at the 7th trumpet, for the finished work of every man, good or bad. Now, you’re taking something out of context and injecting into your point of view where it doesn’t belong and making an erroneous supposition.

5) The mystery of God is finished at the 7th trumpet.... Rev. 10:7 Yes and this mystery has zero to do with Rev. 11.

6) Paul declares a mystery of God, that at the last trumpet the rapture would take place...1 Cor. 15:51,52 Paul does not use the phrase “mystery of God”. He just uses the word mystery and it is referencing something different from the mystery of God of which I showed you the definition of in an earlier reply.

7) Time is no more or (the delay is no longer as some incorrect translations state, but what is that which was delayed? the mystery now complete at the 7th trumpet) Again, you’re injecting something that is out of context to Rev. 11. They are two completely different subjects.

8) God took His great power and hath reigned God has been “reigning” since the beginning of time.

Your words: “This happens at the 7th trumpet. All of the these facts point to one thing... completion. This completion has been ignored by the responses. These facts are not my opinion, or something that I conjured up. They are not filled with speculation, but direct from the Word of God. The reason that people cannot seem to address the completed finished work of God at this point is because it doesn't fit their doctrine. But the facts remain even though the Word is ignored.”

No, they haven’t been ignored because they don’t say what you want them to say. Let’s look at a couple of other translations:

Rev. 11:18 (Complete Jewish Bible) – “The Goyim raged.[a] But now your rage has come, (“has come” includes the following list) the time for the dead to be judged, the time for rewarding your servants the prophets and your holy people, those who stand in awe of your name, both small and great. It is also the time for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Rev. 11:18 (TLB) – “The nations were angry with you, but now it is your turn to be angry with them. It is time to judge the dead and reward your servants—prophets and people alike, all who fear your Name, both great and small—and to destroy those who have caused destruction upon the earth.”

These both show not a completion but a beginning. The wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God are two separate events. In the KJ, vs. 18 the words “is come” are used. These were also used in Rev. 6:17 and in that instance it wasn’t showing a completion, but a beginning as well. The only thing that is completed at this point in Rev. 11 is the wrath of the Lamb, the trumpet judgments. Verse 18 shows the beginning of the wrath of God and the rewarding process (first in heaven, then on earth after Armageddon). So in your analogy, the wrath of the Lamb (trumpets) lays the foundation for the wrath of God, which is still to come.