The Rapture of the Church is not to Heaven

[Galgal]

Because we already live in heaven:

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Ephesians 2:6)

If we read these two verses, which everyone relies on when they talk about the “rapture of the Church”:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1 Thessalonians 4:16,17)

then we see that first the Lord descends to earth, and then the believers are raptured there, to Him on earth.

The word "caught up" in this verse means "taken" (as in John 6:15). "Clouds" means "multitude of people" (as in Hebrews 12:1). "Air" means "the midst of this world" (as in Ephesians 2:2).

Therefore, there is nothing mysterious about the rapture of the Church. It is simply that the Third Temple will be built in Israel first, as described in chapters 40-43 of the book of the prophet Ezekiel, then the saints from all nations will enter through the eastern gate of the Temple. They are shown in the image of the Philadelphia church. When the gates are closed, it will be announced that the Lord God has entered through these gates, the Angel of the Philadelphia church will become equal to God:

Then said the Lord unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the Lord, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. (Ezekiel 44:2)

The moment of closing the eastern gate of the Temple will be that "twinkling of an eye" when the status of people who entered the eastern gate will change: they will become the incarnation of Jesus Christ in the Second Coming. The angel of the Philadelphia church will become equal to God (then the Jews will worship Him).

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(1 Corinthians 15:51,52)

After this, the dead must be resurrected, the Jewish people must return to life with God. And when this happens, the "wise virgins" from among the remaining 5 churches of Revelation will be taken to the Lord in Israel.

That is, the "rapture of the Church" will be an aliyah to Israel of believers who will be recognized as their brothers and sisters by those who previously entered the eastern gate of the Third Temple. This aliyah, according to 2 Esdras 6:24, will last 3 months, from the 6th to the 7th vial of wrath. The construction of the city of Yahweh Shammah in Israel will become the 7th vial of wrath, which will finally determine those who will become the people of God, uniting into one people with the Jews.

 

[ewq1938]

Because we already live in heaven:

No, we do not. The dead in Christ are in heaven but we, the living mortals, do not live in heaven.

 

[Galgal]

No, we do not. The dead in Christ are in heaven but we, the living mortals, do not live in heaven.

If we are in Christ, then we are in heaven. If we are not in Christ, then we must repent, for then we are not saved. Salvation is only in Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

If we are in Christ, then we are in heaven.

No, that is false.

 

[Galgal]

No, that is false.

This is written in Ephesians 2:6. He who is in Christ is living in heaven now. Of course, such a person should act in life as Jesus Christ did: fulfill what was said in the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5-6-7:

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (1 John 2:6)

"Living in heaven" means living in the Kingdom of Heaven, fulfilling the commandments of Jesus Christ, having relationships with other believers that meet the requirements of the teachings of Jesus Christ.

There is not a single Pentecostal in heaven, not a single Catholic, not a single Baptist, not a single denomination - there are other categories there. You have to live here the way Jesus Christ lived here - then you live in heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

then you live in heaven.

But in a spiritual sense, not literally living in heaven. Paul was not in heaven when he wrote the letter to the Ephesians.

 

[Galgal]

But in a spiritual sense, not literally living in heaven. Paul was not in heaven when he wrote the letter to the Ephesians.

The meaning is the same everywhere.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. (Revelation 12)

Those who "live in heaven," in spirit, acting in this world like Jesus Christ, will rejoice.
Those who "live on earth," in the flesh, in the denominations of religion, will have woe.
Those who "live on the sea," in the system of this world, will have woe.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1)

This is one category of believers. Is there any sign of denomination here? - No!

For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (1 Corinthians 3:4)

Here we see denominations. "I am Pentecostal," "I am Catholic," "I am Orthodox," "I am non-denominational" - these are all those who live according to the flesh, not in Christ. Woe to them!

Heaven is the firmament of the Holy Spirit, on which those who have the power of the Spirit rest. "Earth" in Scripture has the meaning of carnal religion, when they live leaning on human decrees, traditions, rules. Therefore, look for yourself where you are now.

There is also the option of "living on the sea". This is when a person relies on his earthly citizenship - American, British, Russian. Woe to such people too.

The idea of a literal, physical "rapture" as a flight somewhere upward is a delusion. The Lord will descend from heaven in Israel when the Third Temple is built and the saints gathered from all nations enter the eastern gate of the Temple. Therefore, those who are “caught up” to the Lord will go there, to Israel. Of course, only those who are now living according to the spirit will be “caught up.”

 

[ewq1938]

The idea of a literal, physical "rapture" as a flight somewhere upward is a delusion. The Lord will descend from heaven in Israel when the Third Temple is built and the saints gathered from all nations enter the eastern gate of the Temple. Therefore, those who are “caught up” to the Lord will go there, to Israel. Of course, only those who are now living according to the spirit will be “caught up.”

Up isn't down, or sideways. The rapture does bring people UP, to the clouds. Do you know where the clouds are?

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Verily]

This is one category of believers. Is there any sign of denomination here? - No!

For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (1 Corinthians 3:4)

Here we see denominations. "I am Pentecostal," "I am Catholic," "I am Orthodox," "I am non-denominational" - these are all those who live according to the flesh, not in Christ. Woe to them!

There seems to be one house (CHLOE'S here) where they are not divided among themselves but reporting on another house which is divided "among themselves" and not really dividing that way too.

1 Cr 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of (CHLOE'S), that there are contentions among you (in this house).

1 Cr 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you (in that house) saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas;

and I of Christ.

There werent even divided in some sort of denominational way (between houses) but rather in a certain house. And not only between Paul, Apollos or Cephas but some appear to be trying to set themselves above them all and use "I am of Christ" even to do it.

Edit: I had to capitalize that name above because for some reason the little letters turned them into a smile face

 

[Galgal]

Up isn't down, or sideways. The rapture does bring people UP, to the clouds. Do you know where the clouds are?

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here in Greek is written the word that is translated as "taken". The same word that is here:

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. (John 6:15)

God's faithful witnesses in the New Testament were called clouds:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (Hebrews 12:1)

Air for the Greeks is the environment of this world, the area of dominion of demonic forces, this is written here:

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (Ephesians 2:2)

 

[Galgal]

There seems to be one house (CHLOE'S here) where they are not divided among themselves but reporting on another house which is divided "among themselves" and not really dividing that way too.

1 Cr 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of (CHLOE'S), that there are contentions among you (in this house).

1 Cr 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you (in that house) saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas;

and I of Christ.

There werent even divided in some sort of denominational way (between houses) but rather in a certain house. And not only between Paul, Apollos or Cephas but some appear to be trying to set themselves above them all and use "I am of Christ" even to do it.

Edit: I had to capitalize that name above because for some reason the little letters turned them into a smile face

Every carnal Christian has tried to elevate his own importance by being a follower of the "right" saint - Apollos, Cephas or Paul. But it is not through whom you came to Jesus Christ that matters, it is how holy you are, how Christ is reflected in you. Then it was the following of a few apostles and teachers, but now it has resulted in the creation of denominations.

 

[ewq1938]

Here in Greek is written the word that is translated as "taken". The same word that is here:

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. (John 6:15)

God's faithful witnesses in the New Testament were called clouds:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (Hebrews 12:1)

Air for the Greeks is the environment of this world, the area of dominion of demonic forces, this is written here:

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (Ephesians 2:2)

UP CLOUDS and AIR all show the rapture does take people upwards into the atmosphere. They are also changed into immortals just before being raptured. Why? To survive in the atmosphere where mortal humans cannot survive.

 

[Davidpt]

UP CLOUDS and AIR all show the rapture does take people upwards into the atmosphere. They are also changed into immortals just before being raptured. Why? To survive in the atmosphere where mortal humans cannot survive.

So much for Pretrib, right? One can't even put on immortality until the last trump. The last trump couldn't possibly be meaning before great tribulation, though. Then you have all these Pretribbers ascending to heaven in mortal bodies since they can't be immortal bodies if one can't obtain one of those until the last trump sounds first. Therefore, they remain in the same bodies they left the earth in, bodies that can't even survive in that atmosphere. Yet Pretrib is true. Yea, right. Ok, if you say so.

 

[Galgal]

UP CLOUDS and AIR all show the rapture does take people upwards into the atmosphere. They are also changed into immortals just before being raptured. Why? To survive in the atmosphere where mortal humans cannot survive.

This is not so. The Second Coming of Christ and the Rapture of the Church will be events within the framework of existing physical laws. The gathering of the chosen people in the Third Temple, the building of the city of Yahweh Shammah and the receiving of land allotments by the restored tribes of Israel. Planet Earth and the solar system will not change. The inside of humanity will change. Immortality will not be physical. In the Millennial Kingdom, people will also die, having reached the fullness of their days of life.

Death will lose its power because there will be a city of Yahweh Shammah, where the Israelites will be able to meet with those who have gone into eternity. Only the Israelites will have this privilege: to see alive those who have died.

 

[ewq1938]

This is not so.

It is so, take a look:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Galgal]

It is so, take a look:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yes, and you must consider the figurative language of Scripture, which defines the terms used in this verse.

 

[Galgal]

It is so, take a look:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

"Up" - that's what it says in your translation. In Greek it says ἁρπάζω.

ἁρπάζω - To seize, snatch, take away by force

Here are some examples:

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. (John 6:15)

But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. (John 10:12)

And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle. (Acts 23:10)

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, and you must consider the figurative language of Scripture, which defines the terms used in this verse.

It's very clear these are literal terms. You essentially have clouds as people so "caught up together with them in the THEM" which clearly makes no sense.

 

[Davidpt]

"Up" - that's what it says in your translation. In Greek it says ἁρπάζω.

ἁρπάζω - To seize, snatch, take away by force

Here are some examples:

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. (John 6:15)

But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. (John 10:12)

And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle. (Acts 23:10)

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up(harpazo) unto God, and to his throne.


What about this verse then? How do you interpret this?

 

[Galgal]

It's very clear these are literal terms. You essentially have clouds as people so "caught up together with them in the THEM" which clearly makes no sense.

On the contrary, it is absolutely clear to anyone who knows Scripture well that the images of “clouds” and “air” accepted in Scripture are used here. The rapture of the Church to Israel will last for 3 months, from the 6th to the 7th vial of wrath:

At that time shall friends fight one against another like enemies, and the earth shall stand in fear with those that dwell therein, the springs of the fountains shall stand still, and in three hours they shall not run. (2 Esdras 6:24)

The same moment is described here as in Revelation:

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. (Revelation 16:12)

"The Great River Euphrates" is an image of Judaism. Judaism will no longer be able to resist the saints who came from all nations to Israel and entered the eastern gate of the Third Temple. The Jews recognize this Temple of God, recognize the appearance of Moshiach, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, incarnated in the Angel of the Philadelphia Church, in the saints who entered the eastern gate of the Temple. Therefore, the Israeli authorities will allow the aliyah of the 5 wise virgins to Israel. Thus, the "lost tribes of Israel" will be restored, which are now hidden in the insides of all who are faithful to Christ:

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Romans 2:29)

These "inner Jews" will come to Israel, join the Jewish people, and be circumcised. Thus God's Israel, the state of the United Tribes of Israel, will be restored.

And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. (Isaiah 66:20)

All this will be the "rapture of the Church". Similar to Operation On Wings of Eagles in 1949-50. Of course, only those who today are saints, who do not get along with this world, who are in great sorrow from everything that surrounds them, and who have a brightly shining lamp of fulfilling God's commandments will be taken to Israel. For such people, expelled from the world, there will be the Kingdom of God in Israel. For those who feel normal living in America, Europe or Russia, there is nothing to do in Israel. The Kingdom of God is not for them.