The Relationship Between Israel and the Church

[Wick Stick]

Sometimes the identities of the church and Israel get misconstrued which can lead to false conclusions based on wrongful assumptions. There are two Israels in scripture. There is of course the physical nation of Israel and there is a spiritual Israel which is founded in faith and with the Abrahamic covenant. Gentile Christian believers, upon salvation, become a part of this spiritual Israel. God made several covenants with the nation of Israel. Some, the church inherits by faith, others remain just for the nation of Israel. All the spiritual promises God made to Israel were fulfilled at Christ’s first coming. (ex. Acts 2:17-18, 21) “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:...21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

We inherit these promises the same way Abraham did in Gen. 15:6 through our faith and belief in our Redeemer and upon the righteousness of Christ we receive by faith at salvation. This is also where our “adoption” fits in. Rom. 8:15-17 - “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”

Many people see the church becoming Israel in Romans 11 but I contend the opposite is true. This shows the separation of the two and reveals the destiny of the physical nation of Israel that will once again be based on their future understanding and utilizing the same faith that Abraham exhibited. Let’s look closer at Rom. 11.

There are two groups shown here, the wild olive shoots that are grafted into the cultivated tree (aka, the church) and the natural branches (Israel). The church will always be grafts. We will never, by osmosis, become natural branches but we receive all our rights via adoption as mentioned above.

Because of disobedience and lack of faith the natural branches were cut off so that we could be grafted in because of our faith and obedience. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, this grafting process will cease (vs. 25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.”) and Christ will restore the natural branches to their rightful place (vs.24 “For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?”)

The word “all” in (vs.26 “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”)
doesn’t necessarily mean the whole nation, but that at some point, all that will be left of Israel that enters into the millennium will be saved. Where will this group come from? I believe they will be the 144,000 (all born again national Israelites) and the rest of the woman (the ⅓ believing Israel of Zech. 13:8-9) who go into hiding for 3 ½ yrs., Rev. 12:14 - “The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.”

Where will they come from? I believe that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of His chosen during the 70th week.: Zech. 12:10 - “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” Especially when the see the FP break the 2nd commandment by setting up the AoD in Rev. 13:14-15.

While we enter into the tree by faith as Abraham, that only entitles us to the spiritual promises, which are more than enough. However, the land promises given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and further explained in the latter chapters of Ezekial, remain for the saved, human Israeli remnant who undergo the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 that enters the millennium, (as well as some Gentile remnants). Some of the church will be ruling and reigning with Christ but I believe heaven will be just a thought away and we will travel back and forth quite frequently. The earth is not the home of the church, our home is in heaven until we arrive w/ the NJ. Dispensationalists, as a rule, see a permanent separation between the church and Israel. I do not. I believe God’s plan is for an ultimate total unity between both parties as depicted by the description given of the NJ and this is where I believe the future wedding has greater meaning.

The "tree" isn't Israel. It's Christ.

That's why it's an olive tree... olive oil is the substance of "anointing" and "the Anointed One" aka Messiah.

 

[Wick Stick]

I have to disagree. The new law added to the old, and the moral and kosher laws were kept.

By old do you mean Moses, or do you mean Abraham?

Paul frames the New Covenant as an extension of Abraham's covenant. Jeremiah, for contrast, calls for an end of Moses covenant and the establishment of a new one.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

and what DID JESUS say to do to those who rejected the gospel .
What did john say about those who bring not this doctrine .
What did paul say to do if even we , an angel or etc brings ANY other gospel unto you ................
IF one hears not the gospel
if one tries to bring another gospel
And that one wont recieve the truth and correction . ITS CALLED REMOVE THEM .

That's after they repeatedly reject the gospel. I don't know if this guy has ever clearly heard the gospel before or not. He doesn't seem to have much understanding of the Bible at all. So, I'm not sure that we can put him in the category that you're talking about just yet.

 

[Trekson]

one body one destiny .
as for all jews and all gentiles OUTSIDE that body their destiny is the fire .
Verily verily i do say unto thee
A jew can be every bit as much an anti christ as can a g entile .
And b oth will wail loudly on the day of the LORD .
The flesh profits nothing . AND ITS JESUS POINTING TIME in the house .

The rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel.

 

[Trekson]

The "tree" isn't Israel. It's Christ.

That's why it's an olive tree... olive oil is the substance of "anointing" and "the Anointed One" aka Messiah.

Christ isn't the tree, Israel is, Christ is the "root". Rom. 11:16 - "For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches". This is similar to where it is pointed out that Christ isn't the foundation, He is the chief cornerstone, which the rest of the foundation is built in alignment to.

 

[Wick Stick]

Christ isn't the tree, Israel is, Christ is the "root". Rom. 11:16 - "For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches". This is similar to where it is pointed out that Christ isn't the foundation, He is the chief cornerstone, which the rest of the foundation is built in alignment to.

Trees are used throughout the Bible and other ANE literature as symbols for kings. Paul is following a well-known trope here.

You are making up your own interpretation of the text, but why? Just to be contrary?

 

[Trekson]

Trees are used throughout the Bible and other ANE literature as symbols for kings. Paul is following a well-known trope here.

You are making up your own interpretation of the text, but why? Just to be contrary?

Where do trees get their nutrients from? What strengthens them by giving them a stable base to grow? Psalm 52:8 states, "But I am like an olive tree flourishing in the house of God; I trust in the loving devotion of God forever and ever." The olive tree here represents the enduring nature of David's kingdom (Israel) and God's covenant with him which Christ continued. Jesus is called the "root" of Jesse, in Rom. 15:12 and the "root" of David in Rev. 5:5. As you can see, I'm not making anything up, one just has to dig a little deeper.

 

[Wick Stick]

Where do trees get their nutrients from? What strengthens them by giving them a stable base to grow? Psalm 52:8 states, "But I am like an olive tree flourishing in the house of God; I trust in the loving devotion of God forever and ever." The olive tree here represents the enduring nature of David's kingdom (Israel) and God's covenant with him which Christ continued. Jesus is called the "root" of Jesse, in Rom. 15:12 and the "root" of David in Rev. 5:5. As you can see, I'm not making anything up, one just has to dig a little deeper.

Trees represent kings, and sometimes royal houses. It's not even unique to the Bible. It happens in cultures throughout the world, where trees and kings both are meant to represent a bridge between heaven and earth.

Some verses, even though you prefer to justify yourself, rather than learn:

[Isa 53:2 KJV] 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.

[Zec 3:8 KJV] 8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they [are] men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

[Zec 6:12 KJV] 12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

[Eze 31:3 KJV] 3 Behold, the Assyrian [was] a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

 

[Trekson]

Trees represent kings, and sometimes royal houses. It's not even unique to the Bible. It happens in cultures throughout the world, where trees and kings both are meant to represent a bridge between heaven and earth.

Some verses, even though you prefer to justify yourself, rather than learn:

[Isa 53:2 KJV] 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.

[Zec 3:8 KJV] 8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they [are] men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

[Zec 6:12 KJV] 12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

[Eze 31:3 KJV] 3 Behold, the Assyrian [was] a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

I agree sometimes they do refer to kings but not all the time. In this specific case, we know the branches are the faithful Jewish and Gentile believers, not Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

I agree sometimes they do refer to kings but not all the time. In this specific case, we know the branches are the faithful Jewish and Gentile believers, not Christ.

Yes and there were branches on the tree before Christ came making the tree symbolic of something that spawns the natural branches who are individual Jews. Only after Christ are the faithless removed, and faithful gentiles added. Christ is not the tree but he would be the root of it.

 

[Trekson]

Yes and there were branches on the tree before Christ came making the tree symbolic of something that spawns the natural branches who are individual Jews. Only after Christ are the faithless removed, and faithful gentiles added. Christ is not the tree but he would be the root of it.

That's exactly what I was saying.

 

[amigo de christo]

The rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel.

according to whom . cause that is not what JESUS or any other apostel taught .
What they said was , A ONE TIME EVENT . and it wont bode well at all for those outside .
Whether a jew or whether a gentile , they can both wail just as loudly as the other , ON THE DAY of THE LORD
if they rejected CHRIST JESUS . And beleive me when i say THEY WILL .
it is JESUS preaching time .

 

[amigo de christo]

The rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel.

Why my dear friend the rapture IS THE SECOND coming .
Wherein Christ cometh for the church and to lay down fierce wrath against every jew and every gentile who denied
He is Christ , That HE is the Son of GOD .
And the hour is quite late indeed .
Trekson just in case you dont know this , My advice is you get every living soul
out of anything connected to ecumenicalism interfaith . THAT HOUSE IS GONNA BURN ON JESUS day .
And seeing we desire not their death and destruction , WELL then , GET THEM OUT and you yourself
be sure and not join hands with it or any who are partakers with it .
Its all coming down on JESUS day . Their peace n safety plan will be the end of them all .
IT DENIED and IT SURELY LIED to all nations to all gentiles and all jews .
OH it has anti christ all over it . So just in case you didnt know this , WELL NOW YOU DO .

 

[amigo de christo]

Christ isn't the tree, Israel is, Christ is the "root". Rom. 11:16 - "For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches". This is similar to where it is pointed out that Christ isn't the foundation, He is the chief cornerstone, which the rest of the foundation is built in alignment to.

I am the tree ye are the branches . My Father is the husbandman .
And oh yes of course he is the root . There is no such thing as a tree without a root .
A tree starts with a seed that grows a root and then upwards .
Trekson , dont think that ecumiencal interfaith of a whores harlot has any branches connected in that tree either .
ITS of another tree . THE DRY ONE . She gonna burn as will all who joined hands with her
On JESUS day .
Just in case you didnt know , Now you do know .
We need to return to the bible and stay in it , be in prayer , be learning , growing and staying refreshed in scripture
and in prayer . Cause we got a massive harlot of all harlots .
And believe me when i say , THERE is just about no place her reach has not infiltrated .
JESUS has the sheep . All else will buy the lie and heed her cry of LOVE and her image of what She says BE GOD
and HIS plan for world peace . But do beware her , for a harlot lies and she knows how to lie quite well .

 

[Trekson]

according to whom . cause that is not what JESUS or any other apostel taught .
What they said was , A ONE TIME EVENT . and it wont bode well at all for those outside .
Whether a jew or whether a gentile , they can both wail just as loudly as the other , ON THE DAY of THE LORD
if they rejected CHRIST JESUS . And beleive me when i say THEY WILL .
it is JESUS preaching time .

The day of the Lord is a multi-themed event that lasts for over a 1000 yrs. and it has both cursings and blessings associated w/ it.

 

[Trekson]

I am the tree ye are the branches . My Father is the husbandman .
And oh yes of course he is the root . There is no such thing as a tree without a root .
A tree starts with a seed that grows a root and then upwards .
Trekson , dont think that ecumiencal interfaith of a whores harlot has any branches connected in that tree either .
ITS of another tree . THE DRY ONE . She gonna burn as will all who joined hands with her
On JESUS day .
Just in case you didnt know , Now you do know .
We need to return to the bible and stay in it , be in prayer , be learning , growing and staying refreshed in scripture
and in prayer . Cause we got a massive harlot of all harlots .
And believe me when i say , THERE is just about no place her reach has not infiltrated .
JESUS has the sheep . All else will buy the lie and heed her cry of LOVE and her image of what She says BE GOD
and HIS plan for world peace . But do beware her , for a harlot lies and she knows how to lie quite well .

The bible say "I am the "vine" you are the branches". That is a completely different metaphor because it ends up being about the fruit of the vine.

 

[Marvelloustime]

I am the tree ye are the branches . My Father is the husbandman .
And oh yes of course he is the root . There is no such thing as a tree without a root .
A tree starts with a seed that grows a root and then upwards .
Trekson , dont think that ecumiencal interfaith of a whores harlot has any branches connected in that tree either .
ITS of another tree . THE DRY ONE . She gonna burn as will all who joined hands with her
On JESUS day .
Just in case you didnt know , Now you do know .
We need to return to the bible and stay in it , be in prayer , be learning , growing and staying refreshed in scripture
and in prayer . Cause we got a massive harlot of all harlots .
And believe me when i say , THERE is just about no place her reach has not infiltrated .
JESUS has the sheep . All else will buy the lie and heed her cry of LOVE and her image of what She says BE GOD
and HIS plan for world peace . But do beware her , for a harlot lies and she knows how to lie quite well .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

according to whom . cause that is not what JESUS or any other apostel taught .
What they said was , A ONE TIME EVENT . and it wont bode well at all for those outside .
Whether a jew or whether a gentile , they can both wail just as loudly as the other , ON THE DAY of THE LORD
if they rejected CHRIST JESUS . And beleive me when i say THEY WILL .
it is JESUS preaching time .

@amigo de christo

 

[amigo de christo]

The bible say "I am the "vine" you are the branches". That is a completely different metaphor because it ends up being about the fruit of the vine.

same thing . as usual if one is indoctrinated they always gonna play on word games .
Let me guess you probably think the bride of Christ is different than the body of Christ .
Or perhaps the kingdom of GOD is not the same as The KINGDOM of heaven
Or etc and etc .
AS if .
WHEN o when , and i say this with upmost pleading , IS this g eneration gonna just read and enjoy
the bible for themselves .

 

[amigo de christo]

I shared the gospel with him since he obviously isn't aware of it since he has been deceived by his cult. He doesn't seem open to the gospel right now, but we can pray for him.

Do you know of anyone named jeff .