I don't see it as turning towards the spirit. The voice of the spirit is a still, gentle voice within that directs me which way to go. When truth is spoken, its voice bears witness and says 'amen, that is the truth'.Episkopos said:
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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
I am talking about a faith that moves TOWARDS an intimacy with God. We are not just agreeing with words...but moving towards the voice. That is how we have a relationship with God.
The words are that which are between us. It is the person behind the words that we move into!
Your post is very good and lucid. But, I have something to add, the pendulum is very much on the side of "spirit without doctrine." And, when I say "spirit", I don't mean anything holy.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Another obstacle to growth in Christ is a teaching that leads one to believe they have already attained positionally what only perseverance by faith can attain. We are in a race!
We are called according to our potential not our position.
We attain a position by realizing our potential. Is every army recruit a positionally trained soldier...or potential soldier? Is there such thing as a civilian as a positional "delta force operator"?
We all have the potential to achieve what God expects of us. Not all are deemed to be able to withstand every wile of the devil. But we all can be "all we can be"!
The positional argument just muddies the water of what true growth in Christ is all about. We CAN all know the Lord. We CAN do all things through Christ who empowers us to.
But no man should judge a thing before it's time...either for a positional victory or a positional defeat. We are all capable of both.
1Co_4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
We are called according to our potential not our position.
We attain a position by realizing our potential. Is every army recruit a positionally trained soldier...or potential soldier? Is there such thing as a civilian as a positional "delta force operator"?
We all have the potential to achieve what God expects of us. Not all are deemed to be able to withstand every wile of the devil. But we all can be "all we can be"!
The positional argument just muddies the water of what true growth in Christ is all about. We CAN all know the Lord. We CAN do all things through Christ who empowers us to.
But no man should judge a thing before it's time...either for a positional victory or a positional defeat. We are all capable of both.
1Co_4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
All men are called, fewer are chosen (anointed), and fewer still are faithful. The positional is the foundation that allows growth.Episkopos said:
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
All have potential! Few realize that potential and achieve position!
The gospel is not a survival salvation scheme for men. It is the power unto salvation for them that exercise faith in the gospel!!! That power produces a heavenly light we walk in. From that light we bear witness of what it is like in heaven...BECAUSE WE ARE SPEAKING FROM THERE!!!!
Being plugged into Christ means we are filled with love...a love that emanates from His very presence in Zion. We know we are with Him in Zion when we can see as He saw and walk as He walked.
This is what it means to abide in Him. We do NOT sin when we abide in Christ. We must choose to leave His presence in order to sin.
Zion is primarily a spiritual place where God dwells. Jesus Christ is there! It is the abode that Jesus has prepared for us. It is the heavenly Jerusalem that is still yet not descended to earth for the visible eyes to see! The spiritual realm is a parallel place to this world that corresponds to this world only it is in the very presence of God. Zion is a place where we walk in Christ. There is light there...a heavenly power that we walk in. As such we walk in this reality but also in heavenly reality. What we do here is already done in heaven. So we are doing works that come from heaven since we are being inspired by seeing from THERE. This is where we go when we are raised in Christ...after being crucified with Him.
I realize after 33 years that very few have experienced walking in the Spirit as it is laid out very plainly in the bible. (It seems too far fetched! But so is walking on water! )
But I have also walked by being led by the Spirit without being in Zion...and everything in between. If one has not known Christ in Zion then one must be very specific in asking questions about this. It is easy to misunderstand if one comes with a prejudice based on a false assumption about what the bible is actually saying.
There is a balance to the way of God. He is a King after all...as well as a Creator. He must rule over all with a perfect impartiality. Christians are definitely not His "favourites".
I try to warn we who have received grace that we ought to run with much fear. To be smug about the challenge before us is to not take our opportunity...but rather rely on a false sense of security that we will be judged somehow more leniently than the world around us.
God has demonstrated His love to us...and He will show us more IF we take seriously the enabling that God has made available for those who wish to bring honour to His name.
Look at these warnings...
Mat_10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat_10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Luk_14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
The promises of God have a cost to them. We must lose everything to gain Christ. This means we must let go of all our former loves, preferences, routines, ways of thinking...etc in order for God to show us His ways, His plans, His love, His kingdom...
God is a jealous God! He will not play second fiddle!
Concerning our calling from out of the nations...notice the goodness AND severity of God.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
How many mock these verses in preference of other verses. How many say...NOT ME!!!...when clearly Paul is talking of us Gentile latecomers? How can such a one actually escape the wrath of God who takes so lightly the sure condemnation this will bring? There is only no condemnation for those who have forsaken all and are now living from Christ alone...who walk by the Spirit and no longer as ordinary men.
Modern day Christians don't realize what God means by faith anymore...it is not our beliefs that He wants...He wants obedience and devotion that causes actions that change the world. His power will kick in when we have put His cause first and foremost. Seek FIRST the kingdom and His righteousness...don't bat an eye for the rest...have FAITH!
The goodness of God should not just lead to rejoicing...it should lead us deeper into the forsaking that He demands..
Rom_2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
How many of us put family above all? How many think that pleases God???
Luk_14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
How many believe Jesus? This is the time to use faith...in the hard times. Anybody can believe when there is no cost to us. What are we doing more than those who are perishing...singing songs on Sunday???
Lip service has never been approved in heaven. A partial sacrifice is worse than no sacrifice at all.
He doesn't want our services and ministries..He wants all of us!
Where are the Christian communities living as one in an eternal life together as a witness to the world? Where is the revolution that Jesus fist sparked in His lifetime? Where are the disciples???
Where is the witness of the world to come? You would think that Christians will mourn as much as the world when all these temporal things are burned...what are we actually attached to? Why do we love our lives so much when we see the chaos this brings?
I try to warn we who have received grace that we ought to run with much fear. To be smug about the challenge before us is to not take our opportunity...but rather rely on a false sense of security that we will be judged somehow more leniently than the world around us.
God has demonstrated His love to us...and He will show us more IF we take seriously the enabling that God has made available for those who wish to bring honour to His name.
Look at these warnings...
Mat_10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat_10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Luk_14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
The promises of God have a cost to them. We must lose everything to gain Christ. This means we must let go of all our former loves, preferences, routines, ways of thinking...etc in order for God to show us His ways, His plans, His love, His kingdom...
God is a jealous God! He will not play second fiddle!
Concerning our calling from out of the nations...notice the goodness AND severity of God.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
How many mock these verses in preference of other verses. How many say...NOT ME!!!...when clearly Paul is talking of us Gentile latecomers? How can such a one actually escape the wrath of God who takes so lightly the sure condemnation this will bring? There is only no condemnation for those who have forsaken all and are now living from Christ alone...who walk by the Spirit and no longer as ordinary men.
Modern day Christians don't realize what God means by faith anymore...it is not our beliefs that He wants...He wants obedience and devotion that causes actions that change the world. His power will kick in when we have put His cause first and foremost. Seek FIRST the kingdom and His righteousness...don't bat an eye for the rest...have FAITH!
The goodness of God should not just lead to rejoicing...it should lead us deeper into the forsaking that He demands..
Rom_2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
How many of us put family above all? How many think that pleases God???
Luk_14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
How many believe Jesus? This is the time to use faith...in the hard times. Anybody can believe when there is no cost to us. What are we doing more than those who are perishing...singing songs on Sunday???
Lip service has never been approved in heaven. A partial sacrifice is worse than no sacrifice at all.
He doesn't want our services and ministries..He wants all of us!
Where are the Christian communities living as one in an eternal life together as a witness to the world? Where is the revolution that Jesus fist sparked in His lifetime? Where are the disciples???
Where is the witness of the world to come? You would think that Christians will mourn as much as the world when all these temporal things are burned...what are we actually attached to? Why do we love our lives so much when we see the chaos this brings?
Christians are not his favorites? They are the apple of his eye. Your writings reek with overtones of mysticism and gnosticism.Episkopos said:
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Gnostics think they are favoured with special knowledge...so then the opposite is true!
God has no favourites. He judges all by their deeds!
John 5:24....( the words of Jesus)..." Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE ( sounds like a position to me) AND SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has passed from death to life" .Episkopos said:
O, and this comes on the heels of vs.22..." The Father judges NO ONE , but has committed all judgments to the Son."
So, other than the judgment for sin placed upon our Lord at Calvary.......
The only judging that will lead to condemnation that is in anyone's future will happen at the Great White Throne after the 1000 yr. reign of Christ. His children are exempt from this as Jesus promised in the above reference in John. The judgment seat of Christ is the only one that we who are positioned IN HIM can look forward to. For that reason we should be considering our walk and our works, that they are in line with His purpose for us and that they bear the fruit of the life He has put into us by faith. After all, no one wants to have their works burned up and left entering into life by the skin of his faith.
John 5:24....( the words of Jesus)..." Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes on Him who sent Me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE ( sounds like a position to me) AND SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has passed from death to life" .williemac said:
Who decides who has faith or not?
Paul asked the Galatians in Gal.3:5..."Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith?"Episkopos said:
Faith has a purpose. It is the means by which we receive life from God. He who has the Son, HAS life. Those who have the life of God within them are they who have faith. If they didn't, then the life would not have been supplied. If God supplied life, and the Spirit, then He must have decided that the faith was genuine.
Some will bear 100, some 60, some 30, This speaks of the fruit of the life that is in us. It is easy to find fault. We are all faulty to some degree.
But in finding fault, who decides that this means that there is NO fruit in the person's life?
Is there some sort of ministry or calling that gives one the task of fault finding?
I don't know about you or anyone else, but the life of God is in me. I am filled with the Spirit and have the assurance of His inheritance within my heart. Do you know what overcomes the world? Our faith! (1John 5:4)... There is an example of this from the great tribulation in Rev.12:11." And they overcame him (the devil) BY THE WORD OF THEIR TESTIMONY, and they loved not their lives to the death."
I would rather have a testimony of what I have, than what I don't have.
But I must reply to the question. In Rom.chapter 5, we see that life and righteousness come to us as a free gift (vs.15-18, specifically). So then in order to receive these freely, it follows that one must accept them as free. I guess each one of us will have to decide for himself if he believes that life is a free gift. Faith is that which believes God. If God says life is free, then he who believes it is he who has faith for it. Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. The inheritance is based on a promise. Do we take God at His word or do we fail to trust His word? This is not rocket science. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks (or types, in this case). What we believe is not hidden. By our own words we will either be condemned or justified. It is not about deciding anything. Faith can be observed.
williemac said:
We must test what people say... whether it brings life or seeks to avoid the truth that brings life. We can't seek to justify what we lack by what we think is more valuable...that is not for us to decide. If we truly understood the value of what we lack...then we would waste no time in getting it!!!
Peace
101G
Well-Known Member
Greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
this is true, Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith". this faith must grow, hence, 2 Peter 1:4 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ".
9 "But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ".
this is true, Romans 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith". this faith must grow, hence, 2 Peter 1:4 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ".
9 "But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ".
Yes, an abundant entrance is the goal...as opposed to an entrance that has been charred a little by the fire, thus suffering loss (he himself will be saved, yet as through fire..1Cor.3:15).. I marvel that some will see faults and failures and incorrectly conclude that this indicates NO FRUIT in the person's life. There are two extremes: 100% fruit, and no fruit. All of us are somewhere in the middle of these, and many closer to the low end. But how many actually dig a hole and bury the whole nine yards?101G said:
Loss doesn't mean less of a reward! Loss means being cut-off!
Mat_13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
That was said regarding one who bore no fruit at all; a dead branch that is broken off and burned, i.e. completely lost. WM's scripture quote pertained to some loss of potential reward, but no loss of salvation. Two very different issues.Episkopos said:
Bad fruit amounts to nothing; it is rejected. No fruit amounts to nothing; no reward. X% are your own works; Y% are works done in Christ. You receive a reward based on Y%; X% no reward.Episkopos said:
So then if the fruit is burned up that means that the person has no fruit. So what does Jesus do with those who bear no fruit? They suffer loss...the loss of all things. They will dwell in darkness and wander the earth forever.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
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