The Root question of Amillenial vs Premillenial

[Rich R]

At least Amillennialist recognize the symbolic context of the Book of Revelation and the apocalyptic genre.

You might want to amend that to say, "At least Amillennialist recognize the assumed symbolic context of the Book of Revelation and the apocalyptic genre."

 

[WPM]

You are assuming we are living in the New Covenant that was promised in Isaiah 31:31. If you'd read the whole of Jeremiah 31 (and other prophets talking about the same thing) it ought to be glaringly obvious that none of that has come to pass, thus the New Covenant is future.

There is nowhere to be found in the scriptures that says anything about God making a covenant with the church. The few mentions of a New Covenant that appear in the Gospel and Paul's letters all refer back to Jeremiah 31:31.

It's tradition that we are under a New Covenant. It doesn't matter if the tradition is 2,000 years old. So are the scriptures.

So, what blood sacrifice is going to instigate this new future covenant?

 

[Rich R]

So, what blood sacrifice is going to instigate this new future covenant?

Jesus shed his blood, ensuring the future fulfillment of the New Covenant God made with Israel in Isaiah 31:31. As I've said, the things mentioned in the rest of that chapter and many other, have not yet come to pass. Doesn't mean in any way shape or form God abandoned His promise. It's yet future.

 

[WPM]

Jesus shed his blood, ensuring the future fulfillment of the New Covenant God made with Israel in Isaiah 31:31. As I've said, the things mentioned in the rest of that chapter and many other, have not yet come to pass. Doesn't mean in any way shape or form God abandoned His promise. It's yet future.

So it is already started?

 

[Rich R]

So it is already started?

That's what Hebrews appears to say.

Heb 8:13,

In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.​

​

The Old (the first) Covenant is decaying, waxing old, and is ready to vanish away. The process began with the the death and resurrection of Jesus. It'll be completed when Jesus comes back again.

If it was a done deal, "decayeth" and "waxeth" would be in the Greek aorist tense which indicates a completed action in the past. As it is they are in the perfect tense, which describes something in progress but not necessarily completed. The phrase "ready to vanish away" is also a strong clue that it hasn't happened yet. It's just ready to happen.

Such an interpretation is not my bias. If we employ the normally accepted meaning of words (we'd have to have good reason not to), it's just what the verse says. Plus it fits perfectly with hundreds of other verses in God's word. It's His doing, not mine.

Did you read anything I said about the mystery hidden in God until it was revealed to Paul? That's key to understanding the end times. When this period is over, when the fullness of the Gentiles is complete, then Jesus will return and complete the promise of the New Testament that God made to Israel in Jeremiah 31:31. Understanding God's plan in this way does not require one to spiritualize or allegorize anything. It's works just fine to take the words for what they literally say.

 

[WPM]

That's what Hebrews appears to say.

Heb 8:13,

In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.​

​

The Old (the first) Covenant is decaying, waxing old, and is ready to vanish away. The process began with the the death and resurrection of Jesus. It'll be completed when Jesus comes back again.

If it was a done deal, "decayeth" and "waxeth" would be in the Greek aorist tense which indicates a completed action in the past. As it is they are in the perfect tense, which describes something in progress but not necessarily completed. The phrase "ready to vanish away" is also a strong clue that it hasn't happened yet. It's just ready to happen.

Such an interpretation is not my bias. If we employ the normally accepted meaning of words (we'd have to have good reason not to), it's just what the verse says. Plus it fits perfectly with hundreds of other verses in God's word. It's His doing, not mine.

Did you read anything I said about the mystery hidden in God until it was revealed to Paul? That's key to understanding the end times. When this period is over, when the fullness of the Gentiles is complete, then Jesus will return and complete the promise of the New Testament that God made to Israel in Jeremiah 31:31. Understanding God's plan in this way does not require one to spiritualize or allegorize anything. It's works just fine to take the words for what they literally say.

You really do not get it do you?

Christ abolished the whole old covenant arrangement through Calvary. The ceremonial law was simply a signpost to Christ. No more. The cross removed this imperfect system. The shadow and the temporal could only remain until the real and eternal arrived. Why would God restore animal sacrifices when He sent His Son to make one final all-sufficient sacrifice for sin? After Christ comes there is no need for the typical sacrifices on the new earth? The fulfilment, the reality, the substance, will be in the midst of God's people. The shadow has been long discarded.

Hebrews 10:5-6 tells us, “Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.”

There is no room in the plan of God for the return of the imperfect Old Testament sacrifices. Once Christ (the final sacrifice) came and fulfilled His destiny by dying for man’s sin the former was done away. The old has been eternally abolished. God took upon human form. The Son of God being perfect could testify: “a body hast thou prepared me.” That body was perfect and His sacrifice was the sacrifice of sacrifices – the one that ended all the old covenant sacrifices.

Hebrews 10:8-10 confirms: “Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

The old covenant was temporal and imperfect and could never satisfy God’s eternal plan for man. It has now been replaced by the new covenant with its focus upon the one individual all-sufficient perfect eternal sacrifice. The New Testament disallows the re-introduction of the abolished sacrifices and offerings. Christ is that final offering for sin.

When Jesus died on the cross He instituted the new covenant which allowed the believer to access God directly. No longer would the bulk of God’s people be excluded from the presence of the Lord by a veil. No longer did they need an earthly priest to represent them before God. They were now free to approach Him personally by simple faith. Christ removed the partition between God and His people when He laid down His life for our sins. He became man’s final high priest.

Hebrews 8:3-8: “For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law … But now hath He [Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry (than the priests that made imperfect sacrifices), by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.”

The removal of the faulty old covenant is here connected to the replacement of the old covenant priesthood. The two are inextricably tied together. The one true eternal high priest has perfected the last sacrifice for sin, and now sits in heaven interceding for His elect. Thus He fulfils the two-fold duty of the priest (making atonement for sin, and interceding on the people’s behalf).

 

[WPM]

That's what Hebrews appears to say.

Heb 8:13,

In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.​

​

The Old (the first) Covenant is decaying, waxing old, and is ready to vanish away. The process began with the the death and resurrection of Jesus. It'll be completed when Jesus comes back again.

If it was a done deal, "decayeth" and "waxeth" would be in the Greek aorist tense which indicates a completed action in the past. As it is they are in the perfect tense, which describes something in progress but not necessarily completed. The phrase "ready to vanish away" is also a strong clue that it hasn't happened yet. It's just ready to happen.

Such an interpretation is not my bias. If we employ the normally accepted meaning of words (we'd have to have good reason not to), it's just what the verse says. Plus it fits perfectly with hundreds of other verses in God's word. It's His doing, not mine.

Did you read anything I said about the mystery hidden in God until it was revealed to Paul? That's key to understanding the end times. When this period is over, when the fullness of the Gentiles is complete, then Jesus will return and complete the promise of the New Testament that God made to Israel in Jeremiah 31:31. Understanding God's plan in this way does not require one to spiritualize or allegorize anything. It's works just fine to take the words for what they literally say.

Hebrews 8:13: “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old (palaioō, worn out, decayed, declared obsolete). Now that which decayeth (palaioō, worn out, decayed, declared obsolete) and waxeth old (gerasko) is ready to vanish away.”

After Christ’s death and the ripping of the curtain in two, the Jewish temple in Jerusalem was rendered wholly redundant. Its usefulness was over. It was obsolete. It remaining standing up until AD70 did not mean it had any further earthly purpose, or that the old covenant remained in effect. It was just like a human corpse awaiting burial. It had no vitality, no relevance and no purpose. Once Christ died, the old covenant died. Degeneration immediately set in, just like the decay that kicks in when a human gives up the ghost.

Paul shows us that the old covenant was decaying and ready to vanish away after the cross. Of course, anything that is decaying is already dead. From then on it is just rotting and in urgent need of a decent burial.

A corpse does not normally vanish from sight immediately upon death until it is put into the grave and buried. But corruption, decay, degeneration has already kicked in. It is lifeless. It is powerless. It simply needs a decent burial. That is how the old covenant was between AD30 and AD70. A corpse can still be visible but it is lifeless and has no ability to function. That is what happened to the old covenant between AD30-70.

Even though a corpse may look asleep, it is lifeless. All you have is rotting flesh. Decomposition has set in immediately. It is gradually decaying, and will ultimately vanish away. But that entity has no further earthly use. Its time is up.

Preterists can do their best to beautify this deceased corpse, they can try their best to raise its lifeless carcass from the dead, and they can attribute life to it all they want, but it is all in vain, it is still absolutely and totally deceased.

By calling this covenant “new,” Jesus rendered the first covenant obsolete. What is more, what was rotting, obsolete and outdated was soon to disappear with the destruction of the Jewish temple.

 

[Rich R]

You really do not get it do you?

Christ abolished the whole old covenant arrangement through Calvary. The ceremonial law was simply a signpost to Christ. No more. The cross removed this imperfect system. The shadow and the temporal could only remain until the real and eternal arrived. Why would God restore animal sacrifices when He sent His Son to make one final all-sufficient sacrifice for sin? After Christ comes there is no need for the typical sacrifices on the new earth? The fulfilment, the reality, the substance, will be in the midst of God's people. The shadow has been long discarded.

Hebrews 10:5-6 tells us, “Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.”

There is no room in the plan of God for the return of the imperfect Old Testament sacrifices. Once Christ (the final sacrifice) came and fulfilled His destiny by dying for man’s sin the former was done away. The old has been eternally abolished. God took upon human form. The Son of God being perfect could testify: “a body hast thou prepared me.” That body was perfect and His sacrifice was the sacrifice of sacrifices – the one that ended all the old covenant sacrifices.

Hebrews 10:8-10 confirms: “Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

The old covenant was temporal and imperfect and could never satisfy God’s eternal plan for man. It has now been replaced by the new covenant with its focus upon the one individual all-sufficient perfect eternal sacrifice. The New Testament disallows the re-introduction of the abolished sacrifices and offerings. Christ is that final offering for sin.

When Jesus died on the cross He instituted the new covenant which allowed the believer to access God directly. No longer would the bulk of God’s people be excluded from the presence of the Lord by a veil. No longer did they need an earthly priest to represent them before God. They were now free to approach Him personally by simple faith. Christ removed the partition between God and His people when He laid down His life for our sins. He became man’s final high priest.

Hebrews 8:3-8: “For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law … But now hath He [Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry (than the priests that made imperfect sacrifices), by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.”

The removal of the faulty old covenant is here connected to the replacement of the old covenant priesthood. The two are inextricably tied together. The one true eternal high priest has perfected the last sacrifice for sin, and now sits in heaven interceding for His elect. Thus He fulfils the two-fold duty of the priest (making atonement for sin, and interceding on the people’s behalf).

All good stuff. Yes Christians now have direct access to God. But I fail to see how it annuls anything I said about God's New Covenant with Israel. None of those verses say the New Covenant has been completely fulfilled. Given the clarity of the nature of the promised land to Israel (over 150 verses on that), clearly it has not been brought to its fullness, which is exactly what Hebrews says in just a few verses down the line; The Old is, "ready to vanish away."

 

[Rich R]

Hebrews 8:13: “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old (palaioō, worn out, decayed, declared obsolete). Now that which decayeth (palaioō, worn out, decayed, declared obsolete) and waxeth old (gerasko) is ready to vanish away.”

Good translations, but they fail to account for the tenses, which makes a huge difference since the heart of our discussion is when this all takes place. I gave you the tenses. You should be able to verify what I said with an interlinear. You may have to Google what the aorists and perfect tenses mean, but that should be easy.

After Christ’s death and the ripping of the curtain in two, the Jewish temple in Jerusalem was rendered wholly redundant. Its usefulness was over. It was obsolete. It remaining standing up until AD70 did not mean it had any further earthly purpose, or that the old covenant remained in effect. It was just like a human corpse awaiting burial. It had no vitality, no relevance and no purpose. Once Christ died, the old covenant died. Degeneration immediately set in, just like the decay that kicks in when a human gives up the ghost.

Paul shows us that the old covenant was decaying and ready to vanish away after the cross. Of course, anything that is decaying is already dead. From then on it is just rotting and in urgent need of a decent burial.

A corpse does not normally vanish from sight immediately upon death until it is put into the grave and buried. But corruption, decay, degeneration has already kicked in. It is lifeless. It is powerless. It simply needs a decent burial. That is how the old covenant was between AD30 and AD70. A corpse can still be visible but it is lifeless and has no ability to function. That is what happened to the old covenant between AD30-70.

Even though a corpse may look asleep, it is lifeless. All you have is rotting flesh. Decomposition has set in immediately. It is gradually decaying, and will ultimately vanish away. But that entity has no further earthly use. Its time is up.

Preterists can do their best to beautify this deceased corpse, they can try their best to raise its lifeless carcass from the dead, and they can attribute life to it all they want, but it is all in vain, it is still absolutely and totally deceased.

By calling this covenant “new,” Jesus rendered the first covenant obsolete. What is more, what was rotting, obsolete and outdated was soon to disappear with the destruction of the Jewish temple.

Well, I don't see Israel in the promised land where the sheep lay with the lions. It didn't happen in 70 AD nor has it happened in the 2,000+ years since. It must be future. Maybe when Jesus comes back? That just may be the answer!

 

[covenantee]

All good stuff. Yes Christians now have direct access to God. But I fail to see how it annuls anything I said about God's New Covenant with Israel. None of those verses say the New Covenant has been completely fulfilled. Given the clarity of the nature of the promised land to Israel (over 150 verses on that), clearly it has not been brought to its fullness, which is exactly what Hebrews says in just a few verses down the line; The Old is, "ready to vanish away."

It physically vanished away in 70 AD with the physical destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, and the OT economy.

 

[WPM]

All good stuff. Yes Christians now have direct access to God. But I fail to see how it annuls anything I said about God's New Covenant with Israel. None of those verses say the New Covenant has been completely fulfilled. Given the clarity of the nature of the promised land to Israel (over 150 verses on that), clearly it has not been brought to its fullness, which is exactly what Hebrews says in just a few verses down the line; The Old is, "ready to vanish away."

You twist Scripture the way you twist history. You try to undermine the cross-work. Shame on you.

 

[WPM]

Good translations, but they fail to account for the tenses, which makes a huge difference since the heart of our discussion is when this all takes place. I gave you the tenses. You should be able to verify what I said with an interlinear. You may have to Google what the aorists and perfect tenses mean, but that should be easy.


Well, I don't see Israel in the promised land where the sheep lay with the lions. It didn't happen in 70 AD nor has it happened in the 2,000+ years since. It must be future. Maybe when Jesus comes back? That just may be the answer!

You totally avoided my post and went off on a rabbit trail. You have to, to justify your error.

 

[WPM]

Good translations, but they fail to account for the tenses, which makes a huge difference since the heart of our discussion is when this all takes place. I gave you the tenses. You should be able to verify what I said with an interlinear. You may have to Google what the aorists and perfect tenses mean, but that should be easy.

Instead of coming out with your usual condescending nonsense, show me where i misrepresented the tenses.

 

[covenantee]

Well, I don't see Israel in the promised land where the sheep lay with the lions.

What is the Scripture "where the sheep lay with the lions"?

 

[Rich R]

It physically vanished away in 70 AD with the physical destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, and the OT economy.

So why dont' we see lions laying with lambs, or children playing with asps? I've not seen even one single ICBM has being made into a plowshare.

 

[IndianaRob]

So why dont' we see lions laying with lambs, or children playing with asps? I've not seen even one single ICBM has being made into a plowshare.

You see lambs laying with wolves every single day in this forum.

 

[Rich R]

You see lambs laying with wolves every single day in this forum.

Right after hitting the "Post reply" button I thought, "Someone's going to say those things are not literal. They are allegorical."

 

[Rich R]

What is the Scripture "where the sheep lay with the lions"?

Isaiah

11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

In Ancient Near East literature, something that was said twice signified the certainty of what was said.

 

[WPM]

So why dont' we see lions laying with lambs, or children playing with asps? I've not seen even one single ICBM has being made into a plowshare.

Instead of coming out with your usual condescending nonsense, show me where i misrepresented the tenses.

 

[rwb]

Right after hitting the "Post reply" button I thought, "Someone's going to say those things are not literal. They are allegorical."

How foolish you continue to show yourself to be! Have you not even spiritual discernment to understand the difference between the 'lambs'/'sheep' of Christ, and 'wolves' wearing sheep's clothing feeding together?

Luke 10:3 (KJV) Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

John 21:15 (KJV) So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

Matthew 7:15 (KJV) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Acts 20:29 (KJV) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

When we read in context, we learn Isaiah's prophecy would come to pass through "a rod out of the stem of Jesse". Only one having little to no spiritual knowledge could read this and deny his prophecy points to the advent of the promised Messiah that was to come.

Isaiah 11:1-9 (KJV) And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Revelation 22:16 (KJV) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Revelation 5:5 (KJV) And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Do you really believe that Isaiah's prophecy is directed to Israel of flesh when he writes this? When did Israel of flesh not seek after God and the promised Messiah? When is Israel of faith with Gentiles of faith together called by the name of Christ, CHRISTIAN? Is not Isaish's prophecy again pointing to what would come to pass when the promised Messiah came? A follower of Christ!

Isaiah 65:1 (KJV) I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

Acts 11:26 (KJV) And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Isaiah 65:8-11 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there. And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me. But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.

Are you so married to your false doctrine that you cannot understand Isaiah's prophecy pertains to all that would come SPIRITUALLY to pass when the promised Messiah came. A new heavens and new earth are being spiritually completed NOW, since the Messiah has come to earth a man. You're so preoccupied with looking for physical fulfillment that you show you have litter to no understanding of the Kingdom of God that the promised Messiah, Christ Jesus our Lord came to earth with. Christ does not leave us without understanding that the Kingdom of God He ushered in is not now of this world, and cannot be physically seen or entered because the Kingdom of God He came with is not and shall not be a physical kingdom but is a SPIRITUAL KINGDOM OF GOD, that has been being built in the Kingdom of heaven as the Gospel was sent unto all the nations of the earth. When we enter into the Kingdom of God through His Spirit in us, we have this promise. Jerusalem from above will be joy for His people, a place for rejoicing, where there will be no more death, no more accursed of God.

Isaiah 65:17-25 (KJV) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Hebrews 12:22 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,