The shed blood of Jesus is everything that matters

[Heb 13:8]

Paul uses several different metaphors to explain the atonement. In this one he uses the metaphor of buying slaves their freedom.

In Gal 3:13 & 2Cor 5:21he uses the scapegoat metaphor:
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us"
"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

In Rom 5:8 Paul writes:
"But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." But what does that mean?
In his book Problems with Atonement, Stephen Finlan describes five different models that that Paul uses
He died to save us (martyr model)
He died in our place - penal substitution model
He paid the price to buy our freedom - ransoming model
He died as the new place of atonement - sacrificial and typological model
He took on our curse and bore away our sins - scapegoat model and typological model

In Rom 5:9-10 he suggests Paul conflates several models and uses one model to interpret another:
justified [judicial]
by his blood [sacrificial or martyr image, or both].....
saved from the wrath of God. [at Judgment Day]....
were reconciled [social/diplomatic]....
to God though the dearth of his Son [sacrificial and martyrdom]

You can pick different models of atonement out of Paul's imagery.

In another thread I asked H.Richard what he meant by ""paid for" but he wouldn't, or couldn't, answer.

All these models seem to have problems. For example a common protestant model is penal atonement whereby the wrath of God is poured out on Jesus who was punished instead of us. But this introduces discord into the Godhead. Also the punishment due to us is eternal separation from God. Jesus did not suffer that.
A problem with the ransom model is who was this ransom paid to? Who were we bought from?

Underline: Are you saying His sacrifice for sins isn't enough? To believe in OSAS is to believe in the finished work of the cross.

Psalm 130:3-4 NIV If you, Lord, kept a record of sins, Lord, who could stand? 4But with you there is forgiveness, so that we can, with reverence, serve you.

Isa 40:1-2 NIV Comfort, comfort my people, says your God. 2Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and proclaim to her that her hard service has been completed, that her sin has been paid for, that she has received from the Lord’s hand double for all her sins.

Dan 9:24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Rom 4:7-8 NIV / Psalm 32:1-2 NIV “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Rom 6:10 NIV The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Col 2:13-15 NIV When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Heb 7:23-25 NIV Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Heb 7:27 NIV Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Heb 9:12 NIV He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:24-28 NIV For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Heb 10:10-14 NIV And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

1 Pet 3:18 NIV For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

1 John 2:1-2 NIV My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Heb 13:8]

A problem with the ransom model is who was this ransom paid to? Who were we bought from?

Who do you think?

 

[Mungo]

Underline: Are you saying His sacrifice for sins isn't enough? To believe in OSAS is to believe in the finished work of the cross.

Psalm 130:3-4 NIV If you, Lord, kept a record of sins, Lord, who could stand? 4But with you there is forgiveness, so that we can, with reverence, serve you.

Isa 40:1-2 NIV Comfort, comfort my people, says your God. 2Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and proclaim to her that her hard service has been completed, that her sin has been paid for, that she has received from the Lord’s hand double for all her sins.

Dan 9:24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Rom 4:7-8 NIV / Psalm 32:1-2 NIV “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

Rom 6:10 NIV The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Col 2:13-15 NIV When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Heb 7:23-25 NIV Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Heb 7:27 NIV Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Heb 9:12 NIV He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:24-28 NIV For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Heb 10:10-14 NIV And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

1 Pet 3:18 NIV For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

1 John 2:1-2 NIV My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

I'm off for Christmas soon (off to visit relatives) so this is going to be brief.

You say: "To believe in OSAS is to believe in the finished work of the cross."

I don't believe in OSAS. It's a novel and unbiblical belief.

Christ's "finished work of the cross". It depends on what exactly is meant by that. The way I see it is that Jesus' 'work' wasn't finished on the cross.

1. My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; (1Jn 2:1)

2. Who is to condemn? It is Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us. (Rom 8:34)

So Jesus' work continues.

Moreover he still needed to ascend to the Father to present his sacrifice - see your quotes from Hebrews (9:12 & 24-28).

You ask "Are you saying His sacrifice for sins isn't enough?"
Enough for what?
Enough to atone for the sins of the world - yes, certainly.
The big issue is - how exactly does Christ's sacrifice atone for sins?
As I showed in my post Paul gives us different models.

Then as H. Richard has pointed out we have to do something for that atoning sacrifice to be applied to us.

Have a good Christmas.

 

[Mungo]

I was hoping to get an answer so I could give a final reply before I leave for Christmas. However I'll give you my thoughts so far:

I'm trying to understand your position - which seems contradictory to me.

If a pardon (forgiveness) is conditional then it is not given until the condition(s) are met.

You indicate that to obtain the pardon there is something I have to do.
"It means that everyone has a pardon, a free gift of salvation. But only those that place their belief, faith, trust and confidence in His work on the cross"
and
"Jesus did indeed pay for, atone for, make amends for, redeem those, and only those, that place their faith, belief, trust, and confidence in His work on the cross...."

Therefore I do not get that pardon until I do something to fulfil the condition(s).

Therefore it is not true that " Jesus dealt with my sins on the cross when He shed His blood to pay for my sins."
It is not true that "When Jesus shed His blood on the cross all the iniquities (sins) of the world were cancelled, pardoned, forgiven, atoned for, paid for."
Jesus deals with my/your sins when I/you fulfilled the condition(s) necessary.

We continue to sin and therefore we continue to need to seek forgiveness.

That is why John wrote:
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; (1Jn 2:1)
and Paul wrote:
Who is to condemn? It is Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us. (Rom 8:34)

Have a good Christmas

 

[Heb 13:8]

You say: "To believe in OSAS is to believe in the finished work of the cross."

I don't believe in OSAS. It's a novel and unbiblical belief.

Then you don't believe Jesus died for your sins, past, present and future. It's really that simple.

 

[Heb 13:8]

John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

 

[FHII]

I was hoping to get an answer so I could give a final reply before I leave for Christmas. However I'll give you my thoughts so far:

I'm trying to understand your position - which seems contradictory to me.

If a pardon (forgiveness) is conditional then it is not given until the condition(s) are met.

You indicate that to obtain the pardon there is something I have to do.
"It means that everyone has a pardon, a free gift of salvation. But only those that place their belief, faith, trust and confidence in His work on the cross"
and
"Jesus did indeed pay for, atone for, make amends for, redeem those, and only those, that place their faith, belief, trust, and confidence in His work on the cross...."

Therefore I do not get that pardon until I do something to fulfil the condition(s).

Therefore it is not true that " Jesus dealt with my sins on the cross when He shed His blood to pay for my sins."
It is not true that "When Jesus shed His blood on the cross all the iniquities (sins) of the world were cancelled, pardoned, forgiven, atoned for, paid for."
Jesus deals with my/your sins when I/you fulfilled the condition(s) necessary.

We continue to sin and therefore we continue to need to seek forgiveness.

That is why John wrote:
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; (1Jn 2:1)
and Paul wrote:
Who is to condemn? It is Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us. (Rom 8:34)

Have a good Christmas

Once again, you seem to be arguing just for the sake of arguing. The pardon is unconditional IF you accept it. This isn't difficult to understand. Saying, "oh see! You got to do accept it! See! That's doing something!" that's rediculous. Its as rediculous as wondering what paying for something is.

Well... Happy Santamas.

 

[H. Richard]

I was hoping to get an answer so I could give a final reply before I leave for Christmas. However I'll give you my thoughts so far:

I'm trying to understand your position - which seems contradictory to me.

If a pardon (forgiveness) is conditional then it is not given until the condition(s) are met.

You indicate that to obtain the pardon there is something I have to do.
"It means that everyone has a pardon, a free gift of salvation. But only those that place their belief, faith, trust and confidence in His work on the cross"
and
"Jesus did indeed pay for, atone for, make amends for, redeem those, and only those, that place their faith, belief, trust, and confidence in His work on the cross...."

Therefore I do not get that pardon until I do something to fulfil the condition(s).

Therefore it is not true that " Jesus dealt with my sins on the cross when He shed His blood to pay for my sins."
It is not true that "When Jesus shed His blood on the cross all the iniquities (sins) of the world were cancelled, pardoned, forgiven, atoned for, paid for."
Jesus deals with my/your sins when I/you fulfilled the condition(s) necessary.

We continue to sin and therefore we continue to need to seek forgiveness.

That is why John wrote:
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; (1Jn 2:1)
and Paul wrote:
Who is to condemn? It is Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us. (Rom 8:34)

Have a good Christmas

***
You equate believing to be a work but it isn't. Believing is spiritaul and has no physical component. The scripture says God is a Spirit and those that worship Him must worship in the spirit. That exclude any physical component.

You're responders are right, if you do not believe in OSAS then you do not believe in what Jesus did on the cross. You only pay lip service to Jesus but in your heart you do not believe in what He did for mankind. For it is God that has said Jesus' shed blood atoned for, paid for, all the sins of the world. If you do not believe in the work of Jesus on the cross; His shed blood that pays for sins of the flesh, then you have no way to be saved.

You said "you must continue seek forgiveness." Why would a rational person continue to seek forgiveness for sins when that person knows that they have already been forgiven on the cross? They would only do it when they do not believe Jesus' shed blood has redeemed them. That is where you are.

You made a big deal out of the word PAID not being in the Bible. But the words used in the Bible mean the same thing as I have shown from a reliable source; the English Dictionary. You wish to make the truth into a lie and in doing so you are doing the work of Satan.

The pardon that Jesus gave to manklind is real but if you don't believe it exists then you can't have any faith in it. The just shall live by faith in the work of God but it seems you have only faith in yourself. There has been enough said to you to make a person stop and ponder if what he/she believes is correct but you have hardened your heart against the truth.

Those that believe in conditional salvation are not set free. You are not set free. But I am set free and have my joy in what God has done for me and all those that place their faith in what He did for us on the cross. But, as you say, you do not believe Jesus has already paid for your sins. To do this you must believe His work on the cross was not finished and He must do it over and over again everytime you seek forgiveness.

Rom 6:10
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
NKJV

 

[bbyrd009]

ah, putting another coat on the ol' Foundation, huh guys? Sin, or death, which one is it we are discussing here? :lol: