The 12 tribes includes people from all over the world. If you look at a Jew today who has dark olive skin, and not really considering the for-all-intents-and-purposes white ones, not all of the 144,000 will look like that. A lot will be white, some could even be black, Asian even.
The Significance of the 144,000
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teleiosis
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Excuse me, but I don't HAVE to give a purpose for what I said to be true. Furthermore, I can go into all kinds of detail about the 144,000 from Scripture from which we can discern their purpose, but since God's Word doesn't spell out that purpose, a whole lot of people have made up all kinds of reasons for their being and because they think it, they believe it.terry said:
To correct what you said: the 144,000 do NOT show up after the Last Trumpet.
- In the broad overview of the end-times in Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive): the 144,000 precede the deliverance of the Great Multitude into the third Heaven of God the Father's presense. Now that is not conclusive, so let's reference a second parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology.
- In the detailed account of just the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive): the 144,000 are mustered to Mount Zion BEFORE the Harvest of the Saints by Jesus from the Clouds.
Since the Scripture spells out this sequence of events:
- midpoint abomination
- Great Tribulation (which is SHORTENED by the arrival of:)
- The Day of the Lord (which includes)
- The Last Trumpet calling forth the Dead in Christ from Paradise
- the gathering of the Elect (who are delivered into Heaven as the Great Multitude, and then):
- The 1st Trumpet sounds (which supplies the fire and blood of the Day of the Lord Wrath)
- Trumpets 2 - 7
= the Last Trumpet comes BEFORE the 7th Trumpet.
And since the 144,000 are mustered before the Last Trumpet, they are mustered from around the world before the 7th Trumpet of God's Wrath as well.
The reason the 144,000 are sealed is, in part, to protect them from the desolations of God's Wrath.
The 144,000 march with Jesus on the Day of the Lord Wrath in Joel 2.
Teleiosis, I agree you do not have to give a purpose for the 144,000. And in areas I mostly agree with what you have said after you clarified youself, thanks for doing so.
Retrobyter
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Shalom, Arnie Manitoba.
The words that I use that are "uncommon to proper English" are words that are HEBREW words that are transliterated in such a way that makes them easier to properly PRONOUNCE! In Hebrew, it's pronounced "AHV-rah-hahm," not "A-brah-ham!" It's a HEBREW name and should be pronounced correctly. It's "Dah-VEED," not "DAY-vid." It's "SHLO-mo," not "SOL-o-mon!" It's "Yo-SAFE," not "JOE-sef!" It's "YEES-rah-ale," not "IS-ray-el" or "IS-rah-el!" It's "Yuh-HOO-dah," not "JOO-dah!"
Most English-speaking people don't even treat their own language correctly, let alone Hebrew! Some even on this forum can't tell the difference between "they're," "their" and "there!" Many can't tell the difference between "you're" and "your!" Some don't use "then" and "than" correctly! And, many don't even know how to spell "Millennium!" (It comes from two Latin words: "mille" meaning "a thousand" and "annum" meaning "year!")
I am proudly a Messianic Jew. "Jews and Gentiles worshipping God together," as it SHOULD be!
Don't read OVER my "lengthy posts"; READ the SCRIPTURES I provide! Don't listen to me or any other human being! Listen to GOD'S WORD! Much of it IS intelligible, but one must first be able to read!
And, not copying and pasting any Bible in your post is actually "BETTER"?! I would rather remind someone of a Scripture verse than have someone listen solely to my words. I would rather quote Scripture than just remind someone about a Scripture verse or passage, and I would rather someone READ THE SCRIPTURES instead of just quoting Scripture that no one reads! TAKE A HINT!!! READ THE SCRIPTURES THAT I THINK ARE WORTHY OF QUOTING FOR THAT PARTICULAR SUBJECT!Arnie Manitoba said:
The words that I use that are "uncommon to proper English" are words that are HEBREW words that are transliterated in such a way that makes them easier to properly PRONOUNCE! In Hebrew, it's pronounced "AHV-rah-hahm," not "A-brah-ham!" It's a HEBREW name and should be pronounced correctly. It's "Dah-VEED," not "DAY-vid." It's "SHLO-mo," not "SOL-o-mon!" It's "Yo-SAFE," not "JOE-sef!" It's "YEES-rah-ale," not "IS-ray-el" or "IS-rah-el!" It's "Yuh-HOO-dah," not "JOO-dah!"
Most English-speaking people don't even treat their own language correctly, let alone Hebrew! Some even on this forum can't tell the difference between "they're," "their" and "there!" Many can't tell the difference between "you're" and "your!" Some don't use "then" and "than" correctly! And, many don't even know how to spell "Millennium!" (It comes from two Latin words: "mille" meaning "a thousand" and "annum" meaning "year!")
I am proudly a Messianic Jew. "Jews and Gentiles worshipping God together," as it SHOULD be!
Don't read OVER my "lengthy posts"; READ the SCRIPTURES I provide! Don't listen to me or any other human being! Listen to GOD'S WORD! Much of it IS intelligible, but one must first be able to read!
In spite of differences of opinion among those of you that spend the larger portion of your time in prophesy threads I find Retro and several others that are much easier to converse with "reason together" than the larger portion. Some I intentionally avoid on this topic "prophesy," that's why I rarely enter into the conversation.
I have to agree with Retro's closing comment, I believe much is yet to be fully understood, quote; "Listen to GOD'S WORD! Much of it IS intelligible"
But you would never suspect that with so many strong opinions on the subject.
There are several points that for now I firmly stand upon because I believe these serve as the best vantage point. That is I choose these key positions though I can not discern the entirety of meaning. So what use is it for me to lead others onto the path that I myself can not present nor defend in the fullness and conviction of the Spirit?
I have to agree with Retro's closing comment, I believe much is yet to be fully understood, quote; "Listen to GOD'S WORD! Much of it IS intelligible"
But you would never suspect that with so many strong opinions on the subject.
There are several points that for now I firmly stand upon because I believe these serve as the best vantage point. That is I choose these key positions though I can not discern the entirety of meaning. So what use is it for me to lead others onto the path that I myself can not present nor defend in the fullness and conviction of the Spirit?
tele,
You stated: The 144,000 muster on Mount Zion - the newly formed mountain out of the Mount of Olives which was split in two by the second earthquake on the Day of the Lord when Jesus touched down on the earth.
My response: Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
terry,
You stated: With them showing up after that last trump ofr even 7th trump there is no need for them to be sealed by God on their foreheads.
My response: I agree. Your statement reveals two truths.
1. These "believers" are still physically alive at the 7th Trump (the survived the GT)
2. They are being sealed to protect them against the Vials of wrath (which will plague the rest of humanity).
Do you think, if there were any other believers alive at that time (without the seal in their foreheads), would not these other believer also be affected by the vials of wrath ( because they don't have the seal)?
You stated: The 144,000 muster on Mount Zion - the newly formed mountain out of the Mount of Olives which was split in two by the second earthquake on the Day of the Lord when Jesus touched down on the earth.
My response: Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
terry,
You stated: With them showing up after that last trump ofr even 7th trump there is no need for them to be sealed by God on their foreheads.
My response: I agree. Your statement reveals two truths.
1. These "believers" are still physically alive at the 7th Trump (the survived the GT)
2. They are being sealed to protect them against the Vials of wrath (which will plague the rest of humanity).
Do you think, if there were any other believers alive at that time (without the seal in their foreheads), would not these other believer also be affected by the vials of wrath ( because they don't have the seal)?
Rain falls on the3 just and the un-just alike. Does not God reward those who keep the faith though sufferring the most? So those that weather the troubles of Tribulation whether it comes from Satan or it comes from God, will they not be rewarded the most?
God takes responsibility not only for his actions but also for all the actions of Satan. Governments do all they can to deny responsibility, God does not. Jesus paid for all our sins. We are in Grace. Does God not say praise him in all things - meaning good or bad? Let those believers that suffer the most, receeive the most.
Those sealed by god have an agenda and part of the brilliance of the light they shine is given proof by the protection they receive, protection from God's Wrath and even protection from Satan's wrath. This protecttion is for a sign to the people of the earth. This will also assist those of faith, maintain their faith.
God takes responsibility not only for his actions but also for all the actions of Satan. Governments do all they can to deny responsibility, God does not. Jesus paid for all our sins. We are in Grace. Does God not say praise him in all things - meaning good or bad? Let those believers that suffer the most, receeive the most.
Those sealed by god have an agenda and part of the brilliance of the light they shine is given proof by the protection they receive, protection from God's Wrath and even protection from Satan's wrath. This protecttion is for a sign to the people of the earth. This will also assist those of faith, maintain their faith.
teleiosis
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My response to your response: Not so - Joel 2:32 is a Millennium reference. It comes in sequence form too in his prophecy; it comes after the Day of the Lord in the text. The survivors of the one 'seven' will assemble on Mount Zion - read Isaiah 4:2-6.guysmith said:
tele,
You stated: The survivors of the one 'seven' will assemble on Mount Zion - read Isaiah 4:2-6.
I agree that the survivors will gather on Mount Zion. IMO the 144,000 represent the male count (according to Isaiah 4:2-6) and that there will be seven women for every one male.
You stated: Not so - Joel 2:32 is a Millennium reference. It comes in sequence form too in his prophecy; it comes after the Day of the Lord in the text.
My response: I believe that "the survivors whom the Lord calls" in Joel 2:32 are the same survivors described in Isaiah 4:2-6.
IMO, the survivors in:
1. Joel 2:32
2. Isaiah 4: 2-6
3. Zechariah 14: 1-5
4. Matthew 24: 15,16
... are not seperate groups, but rather a description of one in the same group.
You stated: The survivors of the one 'seven' will assemble on Mount Zion - read Isaiah 4:2-6.
I agree that the survivors will gather on Mount Zion. IMO the 144,000 represent the male count (according to Isaiah 4:2-6) and that there will be seven women for every one male.
You stated: Not so - Joel 2:32 is a Millennium reference. It comes in sequence form too in his prophecy; it comes after the Day of the Lord in the text.
My response: I believe that "the survivors whom the Lord calls" in Joel 2:32 are the same survivors described in Isaiah 4:2-6.
IMO, the survivors in:
1. Joel 2:32
2. Isaiah 4: 2-6
3. Zechariah 14: 1-5
4. Matthew 24: 15,16
... are not seperate groups, but rather a description of one in the same group.
I like to see the 144,000 in light of the Old Testament. The scene shown to us by John, of the numbering of Israel (the 12 tribes) around a central figure should sound vaguely familiar. It comes straight from the book of numbers. The twelve tribes numbered with Joshua as thier leader leading them into the promised land (as an army prepared for battle). John is using OT imagery to show 1)types of Christ in the OT (which are abundant in the book of Revelation) and 2)the role of Christ in the NT. If I am not mistaken the number does NOT represent the church in general (that would be the great multitude) but represents literal Israel itself. Paul, in Romans, is adamant that unless Israel is saved and God's literal promises to her fulfilled (as fulfilling His promise to Abraham) there will be NO promises to the gentiles. I believe this scene in Revelation represents the same general idea as Paul's (a firm denial that the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD was God forever divorcing His people). The book is obviously deeply Jewish, though it is written in Greek and is NOT written to the church in Jerusalem or Antioch (interestingly). Why not? Because John is showing the Jewish/Christian church dispersed (in exile) among the nations (by writing to seven churches instead of one, and churches located in Asia Minor/Anatolia rather than Antioch or Jerusalem). As a woman fleeing from a dragon into the wilderness.
The number itself is also very interesting. 12 is the number of a complete (divinely sanctioned) government, it is listed as the number of cheifs for more than just Israel (aparently many nations used the number 12 to legitimize thier governments, even early Rome). It was commonly taught in Second Temple Judaism that the Messiah would return and set up 12 thrones, whereby the twelve tribes of Israel would sit and judge the (gentile) nations (something even Jesus talked about, though not extensively). Also L x W = Area, 12 x 12 = 144, a perfect square for land that is being perfectly ruled by human rulers. 1000 is 10 x 10 x 10, a perfect cube, the same measurements as the holy of holies, indicating that God is present in the earth once more (having abandoned the Temple in Jerusalem).
The number itself is also very interesting. 12 is the number of a complete (divinely sanctioned) government, it is listed as the number of cheifs for more than just Israel (aparently many nations used the number 12 to legitimize thier governments, even early Rome). It was commonly taught in Second Temple Judaism that the Messiah would return and set up 12 thrones, whereby the twelve tribes of Israel would sit and judge the (gentile) nations (something even Jesus talked about, though not extensively). Also L x W = Area, 12 x 12 = 144, a perfect square for land that is being perfectly ruled by human rulers. 1000 is 10 x 10 x 10, a perfect cube, the same measurements as the holy of holies, indicating that God is present in the earth once more (having abandoned the Temple in Jerusalem).
teleiosis
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The twelve tribes listed by the Jewish-born John in Revelation are unlike ANY OT listing of Israel. I humbly suggest this list might reflect the Spiritual Israel of the Church since the 144,000 are all believers in Christ being the Firstfruits of the Harvest of the Elect.
The listing is certainly unique but it is not uncommon for the listings of the twelve tribes to be different. Even the listings in the OT are almost ALL different.
teleiosis
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I wouldn't say they're almost all different. There are various listings which are different having anywhere from 10 to 13 tribes; however, the twelve sons of Isaiah are the main listing for the "tribes of Israel." This then raises the question: Why is this list different from all others? If Jesus had meant to convey a Jewish root, John would certainly have been able to do that, but as you admit; this list is unique.
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