The Son of Man returns with and for his people

[CadyandZoe]

The Prophecy of Joel is for ALL the world = ALL whom the FATHER will call = John 3:16

Here it is - read carefully: Acts 2:14-21

Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, lifted up his voice, and addressed the crowd: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day!
16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on My menservants and maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
lood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness,
and the moon to blood,
before the coming of the great and glorious Day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord
will be saved.’

I think you might see, as I do, that Joel associates this "call" and the subsequent outpouring of the Spirit with fire and billows of smoke and the sun turned to darkness ad the moon turned to blood. These events are associated with Christ's second coming, not his first coming.

Yes?

If you will, I suppose we need to distinguish between the promise of Joel, and the prediction of Joel. Yes? I certainly agree with you that the promise of Joel, i.e. calling on the name of the Lord" is true for anyone who calls on his name.

 

[David in NJ]

I think you might see, as I do, that Joel associates this "call" and the subsequent outpouring of the Spirit with fire and billows of smoke and the sun turned to darkness ad the moon turned to blood. These events are associated with Christ's second coming, not his first coming.

Yes?

If you will, I suppose we need to distinguish between the promise of Joel, and the prediction of Joel. Yes? I certainly agree with you that the promise of Joel, i.e. calling on the name of the Lord" is true for anyone who calls on his name.

Please read again carefully Acts ch2

Peace

 

[ewq1938]

I do believe the next notable event will be Christs Second Coming

Same thing Pre-trib believes in as far as Jesus returning at any moment. Perfect scenario for a false jesus to swoop in and fool people.

 

[brightfame52]

Same thing Pre-trib believes in as far as Jesus returning at any moment. Perfect scenario for a false jesus to swoop in and fool people.

Pretrib is different, I use to be one, they believe the church will be raptured , then a seven year trib, then the second coming.

I believe we are in the GT and it will end with the Second Coming at which time the saints, elect, Church will be caught up to meet Him in the Air, following the affairs of eternity.

 

[ewq1938]

Pretrib is different

Of course but there is that one similarity about Jesus being able to come at any moment that is shared between your beliefs and Pre-tribs. They believe it's a coming for a secret rapture but not the second coming, you believe it's the full second coming with a rapture. These both are dangerous beliefs because the antichrist still must come first and the Apostasy must take place.

I believe we are in the GT and it will end with the Second Coming at which time the saints, elect, Church will be caught up to meet Him in the Air, following the affairs of eternity.

We aren't in the GT yet. Paul's man of sin and his miracles must take place and they haven't yet.

 

[David in NJ]

Pretrib is different, I use to be one, they believe the church will be raptured , then a seven year trib, then the second coming.

I believe we are in the GT and it will end with the Second Coming at which time the saints, elect, Church will be caught up to meet Him in the Air, following the affairs of eternity.

Yes, just like Jesus and the Apostles and the OT Prophets all said..........

 

[covenantee]

That doesn't follow. As I said, Jesus and the disciples had no problem understanding the OT, which is why they offered sacrifices according to Moses. And the NT is also understandable when it declares that a Gentile is not required to live Jewishly in order to find salvation through Jesus Christ.

Did you think I was saying that the NT wasn't necessary? I never said that.

It certainly does follow.

Did Jesus' followers ultimately stop offering sacrifices after Calvary?

Where in the OT were they told to stop offering sacrifices?

 

[CadyandZoe]

It certainly does follow.

Did Jesus' followers ultimately stop offering sacrifices after Calvary?

Where in the OT were they told to stop offering sacrifices?

How is this line of questioning relevant to the issue of comprehensibility? I don't get it.

 

[covenantee]

Was it that they couldn't understand, or did Jesus say they were slow to believe? I think there is a difference. Yes?

Chicken or egg?

The issue is that they did not believe and understand the OT until Jesus' NT explanation and illumination.

 

[covenantee]

How is this line of questioning relevant to the issue of comprehensibility? I don't get it.

Then leave it for those who do get it.

 

[covenantee]

How is this line of questioning relevant to the issue of comprehensibility? I don't get it.

Who would comprehend this in the absence of the NT?


Isaiah 53

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Who would comprehend this in the absence of the NT?


Isaiah 53

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

I maintain that prophecy can not be fully understood until the events actually take place. It isn't that Isaiah couldn't be understood. It's that the significance of what he said couldn't be known until the events took place.

 

[brightfame52]

ewg1938

Of course but there is that one similarity about Jesus being able to come at any moment that is shared between your beliefs and Pre-tribs. They believe it's a coming for a secret rapture but not the second coming, you believe it's the full second coming with a rapture. These both are dangerous beliefs because the antichrist still must come first and the Apostasy must take place.

Lol you late friend, antichrist began creeping back in the day during the Apostles 1 Jn 2:18

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

2 Jn 1:7

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

And its developed now for 2000 yrs, its now full-blown, its time for the 2nd Coming

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, just like Jesus and the Apostles and the OT Prophets all said..........

So what exactly do you believe ?

 

[covenantee]

I maintain that prophecy can not be fully understood until the events actually take place. It isn't that Isaiah couldn't be understood. It's that the significance of what he said couldn't be known until the events took place.

Of course. And Isaiah 53 took place in the NT.

You maintain that the OT can be understood without the NT.

That is demonstrably false for Isaiah 53.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul was saying they were no longer part of Israel. Not that they were never a part of Israel.

No longer a part of what Israel? They were still a part of the nation of Israel, so he couldn't have been saying they were cut off from the nation of Israel. What did Jesus say was being taken from them in Matthew 21:43-45? The kingdom of God. What does that tell you about the Israel they were cut off from?

 

[Keraz]

Good Morning Keraz,

Prior to Christ's Death & Resurrection, the Saints waited in Paradise(this is not Heaven).

When Christ Rose with the Victory, HE brought the Saints(who have died) to Heaven.

This is why we SEE the Saints in Heaven in Revelation.

Remember, the Scripture says those who are "asleep" in Christ are those who have died and their spirits/souls go to Christ upon death of the physical body.
This is why it says: "God will bring with Christ the Saints"

A reply of speculation and wrong beliefs, totally unsupported by any scripture.

It is just the souls of the saints, specifically the martyrs, that are in heaven, under the Altar. Rev 6:9-11
When Jesus Returns, He will bring just the souls of the GT martyrs with Him and resurrect them. Rev 20:4-5

I guess you mean Revelation 7:9, when you say 'we see the Saints in heaven'. That verse and the whole Chapter 7, describes earthly scenes.
Heaven is never mentioned there.

Once again, in the future, the Jews will gather together at Jerusalem, and at that time God will pour out his spirit on them all.

Not just a few Jews, but people from every tribe, race, nation and language, all the faithful Christian peoples. Revelation 5:9-10

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Did you catch the fact that although these men were disciples, they didn't recognize Jesus as they walked? And later in the day, once the Spirit opened their eyes, they recognized him.

I wasn't even talking about the two men on the road. This was the passage being discussed:

Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Jesus said this to all of the disciples after the two men went back to Jerusalem to report to the original 11 disciples what had happened.

Jesus said that these men were "slow to believe" not slow to understand. These men didn't have an intellectual problem and the text was not that hard to understand. Rather these men had a spiritual problem, which required that the Holy Spirit open their eyes.

It was both. Are you even reading the text? Look at Luke 24:45. It says He opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures, not so that they would believe them. They had to understand them first before they could believe them.

This same aspect is true about us today. If and when the Holy Spirit opens our eyes, then yes, we can discern more than the disciples did while blinded.

Obviously someone who has had their eyes opened by the Holy Spirit has more discernment than someone who hasn't. That isn't what I'm saying since I'm not into the practice of making obvious statements that everyone already knows. What we're talking about here is whether or not they should have understood what the OT taught even without the NT and without the Holy Spirit opening their eyes. You seem to be saying that they should have been able to understand it even without the NT and without the Holy Spirit opening their eyes and giving them the proper understanding. I'm saying you're wrong about that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

These are things Im not dogmatic on, I just know they shall occur, and remember this is after or at the end of time as we know it, Rev 10:5-6

5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

I do believe the next notable event will be Christs Second Coming, and then the White Throne Judgment, no thousand year mil !

I agree with this. So, this means you are an amillennialist. Are you familiar with that term?

Do you agree that Revelation 20:11 indicates that the judgment won't take place in the heavens or on earth? Not that it really matters. It will take place regardless.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This belief is wrong, because scripture never says those people who were faithful believers, who have died, will go to live in heaven. What we are told is that the dead remain in their graves until the final Judgment. Job14:10-12, David 'sleeps'; Acts 13:36, and Revelation 20:11-15 tells us when that final Judgment will happen.

Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 are undeniable: Jesus will Return accompanied by His angel army.
Translations which say: 'Saints', coming with Jesus, are wrong and cause a scriptural anomaly, an opposing belief that is actually impossible. Jesus said so: John 3:13

Soul sleep is just one of the many false beliefs that you have. If the dead are fully dead in every way (soul, spirit and body) as you believe then God is not their God because scripture says He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living".

Mark 12:26 Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

If the dead are fully dead in every way until the final judgment then how was it that Moses and Elijah met with Jesus at His transfiguration?

Paul certainly did not believe in soul sleep:

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

In the two passages above Paul indicated that by departing the body he would then be present with Christ, which he said wold be far better than remaining in his body. This shows that Paul knew there was a part of him besides his body that would leave his body when he died. Your doctrine contradicts all of these passages as well as Revelation 6:9-11 which refers to souls of the dead that John saw in heaven who are clearly conscious.