The Son of Man returns with and for his people

[Randy Kluth]

I'm not entirely clear on how I, as a Postrib, feel Jesus comes back with his saints, let me speculate a little. We have these 2 important passages regarding Jesus' 2nd Coming with and for his Church. Dad raised an important question in my mind: does Christ come with or for his Church, or both?

My initial thought here is that when we look at these 2 passages together, it appears that Christ comes with the departed saints and for Christians who are still alive on earth. What do you think?...

Matt 24.30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

1 Thes 4.14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

It really appears to me that there are 2 stages here. 1st, the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven. That is when he "bring with him those who have fallen asleep in him." 2nd, Jesus gathers his elect from the four winds, which sounds very much like a gathering to the clouds. And indeed Paul confirms that it is a gathering to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

So we have a 2 step process, Christ appearing with his departed saints, and then his gathering those still alive to the clouds. However, we are told in Acts 1 that he is coming again in the same way he left. That means the appearance of the Son of Man in the clouds must be followed by his appearance on earth. In Zechariah 14, we read that it will be on the Mt. of Olives, a literal place on earth.

Zech 14.4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

2 Sam 15 tells the story how David, who suffered a conspiracy in Jerusalem, left the city and went up on the Mt. of Olives. Interestingly, David expresses hope that God will allow him to return later, to visit Jerusalem again and see the place where the ark is to be. This place, that Jesus is returning to, will show the completion of his promise to Israel, to return to the very people who have rejected him.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Jesus returns in the clouds and calls up believers and then seven years later returns to earth with the raptured believers to defwat all evil and to set up His 1000 year kingdom on earth. Will you be there??

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus returns in the clouds and calls up believers and then seven years later returns to earth with the raptured believers to defwat all evil and to set up His 1000 year kingdom on earth. Will you be there??

Yes, brother, I know you're an avid, convinced, Pretribber, and I respect that. So you've registered your view. Thanks.

 

[Marty fox]

I'm not entirely clear on how I, as a Postrib, feel Jesus comes back with his saints, let me speculate a little. We have these 2 important passages regarding Jesus' 2nd Coming with and for his Church. Dad raised an important question in my mind: does Christ come with or for his Church, or both?

My initial thought here is that when we look at these 2 passages together, it appears that Christ comes with the departed saints and for Christians who are still alive on earth. What do you think?...

Matt 24.30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

1 Thes 4.14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

It really appears to me that there are 2 stages here. 1st, the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven. That is when he "bring with him those who have fallen asleep in him." 2nd, Jesus gathers his elect from the four winds, which sounds very much like a gathering to the clouds. And indeed Paul confirms that it is a gathering to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

So we have a 2 step process, Christ appearing with his departed saints, and then his gathering those still alive to the clouds. However, we are told in Acts 1 that he is coming again in the same way he left. That means the appearance of the Son of Man in the clouds must be followed by his appearance on earth. In Zechariah 14, we read that it will be on the Mt. of Olives, a literal place on earth.

Zech 14.4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

2 Sam 15 tells the story how David, who suffered a conspiracy in Jerusalem, left the city and went up on the Mt. of Olives. Interestingly, David expresses hope that God will allow him to return later, to visit Jerusalem again and see the place where the ark is to be. This place, that Jesus is returning to, will show the completion of his promise to Israel, to return to the very people who have rejected him.

Hi Randy how have you been its been awhile?

Jesus tells us Himself that He will come with His angles and then reward

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

Matthew 25
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

I see Matthew 24 as Jesus coming in judgement but I do believe that Jesus will come a rapture us to meet the saints in the air and then bring His angles to judge and separate

 

[Christian Gedge]

I'm not entirely clear on how I, as a Postrib, feel Jesus comes back with his saints

My bible college principal was a post trib historicist of the reformed variety. He explained it this way. He said that when Roman armies came back from their victories, they approached the city, with the general, riding a white horse in front of his armies. The people would come out to meet him and then join the procession as they entered the gates in his triumph.

It doesn’t answer all my questions either, but the apology has a ring of truth.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Little men's belief and opinions change NO truth!!
Jesus returns in the clouds and calls up believers and then seven years later returns to earth with the raptured believers to defwat all evil and to set up His 1000 year kingdom on earth. Will you be there??

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy how have you been its been awhile?

Jesus tells us Himself that He will come with His angles and then reward

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

Matthew 25
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

I see Matthew 24 as Jesus coming in judgement but I do believe that Jesus will come a rapture us to meet the saints in the air and then bring His angles to judge and separate

Hi Marty, I've missed hearing from you, and was, quite frankly, worried that we may have lost connection. I stopped posting on your other forum, because there were few there presently, and the ones there were a bit on the "strange" side. But I trust your Dad is doing well, and hope the same for you and for your whole family.

Please don't be concerned with my statements that "throw shade" on P. Preterism. People keep calling me that, but I'm not going to change where I agree with P. Preterists just because they want to align me with all Preterism stands for.

I've been greatly helped by Partial Preterists come to the place where I am now with much of the Olivet Discourse. And that has been huge in putting together biblical eschatology for me.

Allow me to just give you due credit. You are one of the very few who I can disagree with without producing hostility. We can honestly disagree agreeably. That is a tremendous virtue, and I believe those like you should be called out for it.

 

[Marty fox]

Hi Marty, I've missed hearing from you, and was, quite frankly, worried that we may have lost connection. I stopped posting on your other forum, because there were few there presently, and the ones there were a bit on the "strange" side. But I trust your Dad is doing well, and hope the same for you and for your whole family.

Please don't be concerned with my statements that "throw shade" on P. Preterism. People keep calling me that, but I'm not going to change where I agree with P. Preterists just because they want to align me with all Preterism stands for.

I've been greatly helped by Partial Preterists come to the place where I am now with much of the Olivet Discourse. And that has been huge in putting together biblical eschatology for me.

Allow me to just give you due credit. You are one of the very few who I can disagree with without producing hostility. We can honestly disagree agreeably. That is a tremendous virtue, and I believe those like you should be called out for it.

Thanks Randy and the same to you, you are a real gentlemen to debate with. I hope that you are doing well yourself. Myself and my dad are doing pretty good thanks but we do miss you on the site.

Do you agree with the point of Jeus returning with His angles and the saints and then judgement with the verses I posted?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not entirely clear on how I, as a Postrib, feel Jesus comes back with his saints, let me speculate a little. We have these 2 important passages regarding Jesus' 2nd Coming with and for his Church. Dad raised an important question in my mind: does Christ come with or for his Church, or both?

My initial thought here is that when we look at these 2 passages together, it appears that Christ comes with the departed saints and for Christians who are still alive on earth. What do you think?...

Matt 24.30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

1 Thes 4.14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

It really appears to me that there are 2 stages here. 1st, the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven. That is when he "bring with him those who have fallen asleep in him." 2nd, Jesus gathers his elect from the four winds, which sounds very much like a gathering to the clouds. And indeed Paul confirms that it is a gathering to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

So we have a 2 step process, Christ appearing with his departed saints, and then his gathering those still alive to the clouds.

Right. He is coming from heaven with the souls of the dead in Christ. Once He does that then the bodies of the dead in Christ will be resurrected and they, along with those who are alive at the time, will together be caught up to meet Christ in the air. So, He is coming both with and for His people.

This passage reflects both of those things:

Mark 13:26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Notice He said that He will send his angels to gather the elect "from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens". The souls of the dead in Christ will be gathered from heaven and the bodies of His people will be gathered from the earth to be caught up to meet Him in the air.

However, we are told in Acts 1 that he is coming again in the same way he left. That means the appearance of the Son of Man in the clouds must be followed by his appearance on earth.

You were doing so well until this. It does not say that He is coming back to the same location from where He left, it says He is coming down from heaven in the SAME MANNER in which He left earth. That means He will descend from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven. What manner was that? Visibly and bodily. We will meet Him "in the air", not on earth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Right. He is coming from heaven with the souls of the dead in Christ. Once He does that then the bodies of the dead in Christ will be resurrected and they, along with those who are alive at the time, will together be caught up to meet Christ in the air. So, He is coming both with and for His people.

This passage reflects both of those things:

Mark 13:26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Notice He said that He will send his angels to gather the elect "from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens". The souls of the dead in Christ will be gathered from heaven and the bodies of His people will be gathered from the earth to be caught up to meet Him in the air.

Yea, I caught that too. They will be gathered *from the winds," which appears to be "in the clouds," where their departed spirits exist. I should've thought that if they were in heaven they would already be with Christ. But they appear to be "gathered from the 4 winds." I'd like to understand this better!

You were doing so well until this. It does not say that He is coming back to the same location from where He left, it says He is coming down from heaven in the SAME MANNER in which He left earth. That means He will descend from heaven in the same manner that He ascended to heaven. What manner was that? Visibly and bodily. We will meet Him "in the air", not on earth.

Well, I'm just posing my ideas--I'm not really certain. What do you do with the Zechariah passage, where the Lord comes to situate on the Mt. of Olives?

 

[Randy Kluth]

My bible college principal was a post trib historicist of the reformed variety. He explained it this way. He said that when Roman armies came back from their victories, they approached the city, with the general, riding a white horse in front of his armies. The people would come out to meet him and then join the procession as they entered the gates in his triumph.

It doesn’t answer all my questions either, but the apology has a ring of truth.

Thanks. That's very similar to how a good friend of mine described it, as a delegation going out to meet a dignitary. But I like the military application!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thanks Randy and the same to you, you are a real gentlemen to debate with. I hope that you are doing well yourself. Myself and my dad are doing pretty good thanks but we do miss you on the site.

Do you agree with the point of Jeus returning with His angles and the saints and then judgement with the verses I posted?

Unless I missed something, I didn't see anything but Scriptural truth. I'll have to check in your site, to see how things are.

Jesus seems to come, in Rev 19, with both angels and saints. This is in full military regalia, and so I think we all, on the side of Christ, participate in both Christ's victory and judgment over the earth. Our testimony contributes to Jesus' testimony, that he is Lord and world governor.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yea, I caught that too. They will be gathered *from the winds," which appears to be "in the clouds," where their departed spirits exist. I should've thought that if they were in heaven they would already be with Christ. But they appear to be "gathered from the 4 winds." I'd like to understand this better!

Yeah, I guess it would be interesting to study what that means more in depth, but it's not something that concerns me.

Well, I'm just posing my ideas--I'm not really certain.

Not really certain about what exactly? What do you think about what I said in terms of Acts 1:11 talking about the manner in which He will descend from heaven (visibly and bodily) rather than it talking about the location that He will go to? You can see that it doesn't say He will come back to the same location from where He left, right? That's not what "in the same manner" means.

What do you do with the Zechariah passage, where the Lord comes to situate on the Mt. of Olives?

He stood on the Mount of Olives long ago already. Zechariah 14 is a very difficult passage to reconcile with the rest of scripture, so I don't make that part of the foundation of my doctrine and I'm not sure why anyone would.

Can you tell me why we would go right back down to the earth after meeting Jesus in the air? What would be the point of meeting Him in the air in that case?

 

[Marty fox]

Unless I missed something, I didn't see anything but Scriptural truth. I'll have to check in your site, to see how things are.

Jesus seems to come, in Rev 19, with both angels and saints. This is in full military regalia, and so I think we all, on the side of Christ, participate in both Christ's victory and judgment over the earth. Our testimony contributes to Jesus' testimony, that he is Lord and world governor.

Sure but Jesus said in those verses that the rewarding and the judgement day happens when He comes back but that is missing in chapter 19. This is one of the reasons why I don't believe chapter 19 isn't the second coming

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure but Jesus said in those verses that the rewarding and the judgement day happens when He comes back but that is missing in chapter 19. This is one of the reasons why I don't believe chapter 19 isn't the second coming

Why does that have to be mentioned specifically in Revelation 19 in order for that to be talking about the second coming? Not every passage that talks about the second coming contains all of the details relating to it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yeah, I guess it would be interesting to study what that means more in depth, but it's not something that concerns me.


Not really certain about what exactly? What do you think about what I said in terms of Acts 1:11 talking about the manner in which He will descend from heaven (visibly and bodily) rather than it talking about the location that He will go to? You can see that it doesn't say He will come back to the same location from where He left, right? That's not what "in the same manner" means.


He stood on the Mount of Olives long ago already. Zechariah 14 is a very difficult passage to reconcile with the rest of scripture, so I don't make that part of the foundation of my doctrine and I'm not sure why anyone would.

Can you tell me why we would go right back down to the earth after meeting Jesus in the air? What would be the point of meeting Him in the air in that case?

Well, you make a good point, and I'll have to think about it. You may be right that the exact location of Jesus' return matters less than the "way" he comes back, physically and visibly. I was just basing my judgment about the location on the Mt. on the Zech 14 passage. I'm not sure if I'm even interpreting it right because it is speaking not of Messiah, specifically, but of the Lord God.

It may be that the *place* the Lord returns is actually *in the air,* appearing as lightning among the clouds. Is this actually a "physical return?" I don't know.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sure but Jesus said in those verses that the rewarding and the judgement day happens when He comes back but that is missing in chapter 19. This is one of the reasons why I don't believe chapter 19 isn't the second coming

To be honest, I've just never looked at it that way. All the influences I've ever had just assumed Rev 19 was the 2nd Coming. So I'll have to look at it again.

 

[Truth7t7]

My bible college principal was a post trib historicist of the reformed variety. He explained it this way. He said that when Roman armies came back from their victories, they approached the city, with the general, riding a white horse in front of his armies. The people would come out to meet him and then join the procession as they entered the gates in his triumph.

It doesn’t answer all my questions either, but the apology has a ring of truth.

Christian Luke chapter 21 is a "Parallel" teaching of the Olivet discourse seen in Matthew Chapter 24

Yes reformed historicism falsely teaches the events seen took place in 70AD in Jerusalems destruction by Roman armies

Christian the scripture below depicts a future church on earth, 70AD fulfillment is a reformed preterist fairy tale, "Before Your Eyes"

"The Church" seen in Luke 21 below, those who are persecuted for the name of Jesus Christ, they will be eyewitnesses of the future great tribulation and second coming of Jesus in the heavens

The Tribulation verses 25-26 below, the Second Coming verses 27-28 below

"Yes" The Church On Earth, Hated By The World For The Name Of Jesus (Verse 17)

Luke 21:17 & 25-28KJV
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Marty fox]

Why does that have to be mentioned specifically in Revelation 19 in order for that to be talking about the second coming? Not every passage that talks about the second coming contains all of the details relating to it.

Because that text is only about judgment especially of the beast and the false prophet which is before
the final defeat of satan

 

[quietthinker]

1 Thes 4.14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

'will bring with Jesus'. The statement implies direction. Where will Jesus 'bring' to? and where from? and who will he bring to and from?
If the the dead saints are awaiting a resurrection then its obvious he is not bring them to this earth.
I think it is meant Jesus will bring them to his Father.....the resurrected dead and those alive when he returns to
meet the Lord in the air. If we look at both 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 the context tells us that this is when and here immortality is bestowed.
The 'bringing' is not to this earth because the dead and the living are already here. They await a transformation from mortal to immortal which I Corinthians 15 makes clear and this happens at Jesus return.