The sons of God

[Davy]

It's obvious that Davidpt has to go searching The Bible for a verse that 'seems' to back up what he is claiming about what Peter said in 2 Peter 3. And then he has the gall to try and claim that settles the matter of what flood Peter was pointing to, WITHOUT actually addressing all the things Peter said, nor other Bible witnesses of that the flood of that old world before Adam ...


2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

Peter was obviously pointing to scoffers in the last days that WILLINGLY ARE IGNORANT OF this previous flood that happened in the old world. That includes Mr. Davidpt with what he has said.

Yet Davidpt reveals that he is NOT ignorant of the flood of Noah's day. Think about that.

If Apostle Peter was referring to the flood of Noah's day that the "scoffers" are "willingly ignorant of", that means Davidpt would not be aware of the flood in Noah's time. I mean, how... can one proclaim the flood of Noah's day when Peter said those scoffers are willingly ignorant of that flood? That is exactly what it would... mean, IF Peter was truly pointing to Noah's flood in that 2 Peter 3:5-6 Scripture.

That, along with that picture Peter draws with speaking about the original creation of old, with the earth standing out of the water and in the water, that old world perish by a flood.

Then there's even the weightier Bible Scripture I covered from Jeremiah 4 and Romans 8 which reveals a 'previous' destruction of the earth by God whereby He placed His creation "subject to vanity" and "in bondage of corruption". That clearly suggests God's creation was in a previous good condition, and not in a state of vanity or corruption like has been in since Genesis 1:2 with those "waters" of a flood overspread upon it.

And that's yet another matter Davidpt has not addressed, that Genesis 1:2 verse which shows the earth was already there, with those "waters" already upon it, because there is NO words of creating the earth after that Genesis 1:1 verse in the beginning. And the Hebrew for the phrase "without form, and void", as used in Jeremiah 4, is pointing to the earth have become... a waste and a ruin. The Hebrew tohu word is a word used for something that was once good, turning into nothing or a waste.

There's so many matters in Bible Scripture that Davidpt fails to address, that it reveals his actual great lack of Bible study, and he instead tries to steer around all the Biblical evidence for a matter, and just settles for pop traditions of men.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's obvious that Davidpt has to go searching The Bible for a verse that 'seems' to back up what he is claiming about what Peter said in 2 Peter 3. And then he has the gall to try and claim that settles the matter of what flood Peter was pointing to, WITHOUT actually addressing all the things Peter said, nor other Bible witnesses of that the flood of that old world before Adam ...


2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

Peter was obviously pointing to scoffers in the last days that WILLINGLY ARE IGNORANT OF this previous flood that happened in the old world. That includes Mr. Davidpt with what he has said.

Yet Davidpt reveals that he is NOT ignorant of the flood of Noah's day. Think about that.

If Apostle Peter was referring to the flood of Noah's day that the "scoffers" are "willingly ignorant of", that means Davidpt would not be aware of the flood in Noah's time.

You are so foolish. The scoffers Peter referenced scoff at the promise of Christ's second coming. Davidpt does not scoff at that. The scoffers are ignorant about the flood of Noah's day that destroyed all life on earth except for Noah and his family because they scoff at the idea that God would again destroy the earth in the future, only this time by fire. In 2 Peter 3:6-7 Peter compared the future fiery global destruction that will occur on the day Jesus returns to the flood in Noah's day. Jesus made the same comparison in Matthew 24:35-39.

 

[Zao is life]

So who created the Nephilim, the giants,

even if angels fell in love with beautiful human women, why would they give birth to giants? Was it not God who created the giants?

I am very curious about this question, just as God also created Satan.

"Nephiilim": H5303 nephîyl
From H5307; {properly} a {feller} that {is} a bully or tyrant: - giant.

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty [H1368 gibbor] men which were of old, men of renown.

H1368 gibbôr gibbôr {ghib-bore'} ghib-bore'
Intensive from the same as H1397; powerful; by implication {warrior} tyrant: - {champion} {chief} X {excel} {giant} {man} mighty ({man} {one}) strong ({man}) valiant man.

The "giants" were not angels. They were men. So if the scripture were to give either:

(a) a clear indication that those men were human / angel half-breeds; or
(b) a clear, unambiguous statement regarding the sons of God being angels and not men,

then that would help - but we have to go outside of scripture to find such a clear statement - and the only writing that talks about such a thing is the book of Enoch (which is probably where the idea originated from).

 

[Zao is life]

He come from going to and fro in the Earth and from walking up and down in it, it simply means he travels far and wide, much as a sojourner that had been traveling to and fro back and forth in the land/Earth.

Further to the above, I don't agree with you about the identity of the adversary (Satan) of course - but with regard to this:

7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

IMO Satan's choice of words betray nothing more or less than his disrespect - his insolence and impudence - because he indeed had the freedom to "go to and fro in the earth, and walk up and down in it" - and he was insolently "reminding" God of it.

 

[Zao is life]

2nd Peter 2:4

• "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

The language "cast down" references Revelation 12 where the stars or messengers are being "cast down by the tail of the Devil so that they are no longer representative lights of the kingdom of heaven, but are cast down to the earth, reserved until judgment day. Also in Jude, speaking of God's people (not angels), we read:

Jude 1:9-13

• "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
• But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
• Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
• These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
• Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."

With regards to the period in time you apply 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6 to, what do you make of the similarity here:

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

2 Peter 2
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Good thing that you bring this up.
I will explain some examples to give you an idea first. The characteristic of the end times is not "anything" but the decay or corruption of the world and judgment of the church (judgment must begin there) as Satan is loosed from his restraint to deceive the nations. And what many God-fearing Christians will deny that rampant homosexuality is a direct sign of the decay, deterioration, and corruption of society as it forsakes all the inherited laws of God. This sin turns the order of things upside down. This decay and corruption is just as much a sign of God's judgment as it was in the days of Noah.

Genesis 6:11-13

• "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
• And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
• And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth."

Homosexuality's, Transgenderism, Agender or nonbinary, etc. are growing rapidly. God calls these vile affections, but unfortunately, the church just rolls its eyes and conducts business as usual. Bible-believing Christians must be prepared to face that deterioration of the world AND the church and the trials and tribulations of same. They must do so with their eyes on the form of Christ, and not the form of the church. They must discern the signs of the times with their head toward heaven, and not look toward the world in fear after those things which are coming upon the church. Where you can "see" the abomination of desolation. It is a prelude to the Lord's soon return. For the powers of heaven shall be shaken, the church devastated. Signs are spiritual, in the heavens and in the earth. And only those with their eyes toward heaven will "see" them which I do today.

So, to answer your question, the “spirits in prison” of 1st Peter 3, refers to those who remain in spiritual bondage to Satan and were in need of liberation. They may be described as not knowing their right hand from their left, because Christ—through His death and resurrection—granted them spiritual hearing, as stated in verses 18–19. This “preaching” is not something that must be verbally heard or intellectually understood; rather, it is the proclamation of regeneration itself.

This is why infants and those who are mentally incapacitated can be saved—nothing is required of them. Salvation is by grace alone, through the faithfulness of Christ. Those who reject the gospel remain in spiritual bondage, reserved for judgment, whether they are physically alive or dead.

(Had to shorten your post due to character limit being exceeded for this post).

What you say about the sexual depravity of Sodom and of today is true - and added to that same sexual depravity of today there is also pedophilia (which is even worse) - much of it by heterosexuals, and the kidnapping of women and holding them as slaves for satisfying the lewd desires of those who are filthy, etc etc. Homosexual acts, depraved as they are, are not the only lewed sins, and being fixated on one thing, mentioning only that one depravity, distracts the reader and the person talking about the sin, from awareness of all sin - and it could even lead to being distracted from the fact that if we ourselves were not sinners, Christ would not have even needed to die for us. We should not forget that God hates all sin, including our own sins

- but your post does not answer the question I asked. (It answers things not mentioned though also pertinent, but your post does not answer the question I asked). The scriptures I brought up show a discrepancy between your statement which prompted the question, and what scripture implies.

 

[rwb]

"Nephiilim": H5303 nephîyl
From H5307; {properly} a {feller} that {is} a bully or tyrant: - giant.

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty [H1368 gibbor] men which were of old, men of renown.

H1368 gibbôr gibbôr {ghib-bore'} ghib-bore'
Intensive from the same as H1397; powerful; by implication {warrior} tyrant: - {champion} {chief} X {excel} {giant} {man} mighty ({man} {one}) strong ({man}) valiant man.

The "giants" were not angels. They were men. So if the scripture were to give either:

(a) a clear indication that those men were human / angel half-breeds; or
(b) a clear, unambiguous statement regarding the sons of God being angels and not men,

then that would help - but we have to go outside of scripture to find such a clear statement - and the only writing that talks about such a thing is the book of Enoch (which is probably where the idea originated from).

The view that fallen angels of God procreated with women of flesh & blood originates from the belief that Satan was an angel of God before becoming Satan. In fact, it is believed by a vast majority of Christian churches that Satan was created the highest-ranking angel of God before in pride he became the demon spirit called Satan. Scripture clears up this falsehood because we read in Hebrews how angels of God are spirits sent to minister to heirs of salvation. And we also read that from the beginning Satan is a liar and murderer.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So much confusion and contradiction can be cleared up if we begin to understand how poorly Bible translators have translated angelos throughout Scripture as angel instead of messengers as it should be. In that way as we seek for better understanding the context will help us to discern whether angelos should be translated human or demon spirit messenger of Satan, or human messenger of God such as John the Baptist, or angel of God sent to minister to heirs of salvation.

You're very handy with a Concordance Zao, see for yourself whether you agree that angelos throughout the Bible has been poorly translated. I believe this is because unwittingly the translators translated their bias for fallen angels of God into the Holy Texts. Tell me if you agree.

 

[Zao is life]

You're very handy with a Concordance Zao, see for yourself whether you agree that angelos throughout the Bible has been poorly translated. I believe this is because unwittingly the translators translated their bias for fallen angels of God into the Holy Texts. Tell me if you agree.

I have seen long ago that it's often very difficult to know (where the word is used) whether or not it's referring to a human messenger. The messenger in the Revelation who John fell down to worship was not a ministering spirit (Revelation 19:10 & 22:8-9). John gets an entirely different response from when He fell down to worship Christ in Revelation 1:17-18.

Which also makes it impossible to tell whether or not the seven messengers of Revelation 1:20 are humans, or spirit beings - because verse 11 says ""What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven Assemblies which are in Asia" - and in those days letters and documents were passed from one church in one city to other churches in other cities using human messengers. The human messengers were the post office of those days.

Revelation 1:1 says Jesus ""sent and signified it by his messenger unto his servant John" - and in Revelation 19:10 & 22:8-9 the messenger was a human who stated he was John's "fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book", and also stated that he was John's "fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus"

- which has always left me unsure of what the statement "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of (the) prophecy" truly means - because the Greek says "the testimony" (of Jesus) and "the spirit of the prophecy". (I.O.W "Worship God because the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy").

Which prophecy? Obviously the Revelation itself - and Revelation 1:5-6 says Jesus Christ is "the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth", who "loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father" and "to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

So I know there is a meaning in that statement - made by a human messenger - that "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy" that I'm missing (and I believe most do miss). Because it leaves the question: Is it the testimony of Jesus Himself that is the spirit of the prophecy? Or is it the testimony of those who testify to Jesus? Who is the spirit being referred to as the spirit of the prophecy?

Then there is Revelation 8:2: "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

The 7th of the 7 trumpets that was blown the 7th time the Israelites marched around Jericho on the 7th of 7 days caused the walls of Jericho to fall down when the people gave a great shout, as had been instructed.

It was human priests though. So these messengers with seven trumpets - are they human, or "angelic" (spirit beings)?

The locusts "had a king over them, which is the messenger of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon".

They are not harming those who have the seal of God on their foreheads. So how do we know if this "messenger of the bottomless pit" is not referring to a man - since the beast is said in Revelation 17 to ascend from the bottomless pit - and in Revelation 13 he is said to ascend from "the sea"?

I really do believe, like you, that there is a lot of erroneous belief and faulty understanding produced by the assumption that every time scripture uses the word "angel" it's talking about a spirit being.

When you mentioned what Jesus said - and for the first time ever - it made me think of Cain:

John 8:44 (KJV) [/B]Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Judas Iscariot in a biblical sense was the son of Cain. Cain was an adversary. He murdered his brother. The Jews who supported the murder of Christ were sons of Cain.

Like I said, when I read what you wrote it was the very first time it made me think of Cain. Cain just popped into my head - but I still don't believe that it was Eve's own mind or imagination that was questioning her about what God had said. I would have to go through every New Testament reference to Satan and his activities mentioned by Jesus and the apostles to consider it properly (and someone like me probably will - at some point - but don't be impatient because I need the time - and I doubt that I will see references to Satan in the Bible the way you do).

The view that fallen angels of God procreated with women of flesh & blood originates from the belief that Satan was an angel of God before becoming Satan.

I believe it originates in the book of Enoch - many Jews have been exposed to the same literature long before any church was established.

One thing I noticed recently (for the first time) when I read the first words of the Book of Enoch was the words:

Book of Enoch
1.1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, according to which he blessed the chosen and righteous, who must be present on the Day of Distress, which is appointed, for the removal of all the wicked and impious.

1.2 And Enoch took up his parable, and said:

There was a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by the Lord, and he saw a Holy vision in the Heavens, which the angels showed to me, and I heard everything from them. And I understood what I saw, but not for this generation, but for a distant generation that will come.

1.3: Concerning the chosen, I spoke, and I uttered a parable concerning them ..

The Holy and Great One will come out from His dwelling..."

I believe the parable begins with the words "The Holy and Great One will come out from His dwelling..." because the fact that Enoch was speaking a parable is mentioned right at the start of the book of Enoch

- which makes it similar to the book of Ezekiel and the book of Revelation, which contain many visions that represent things but are not the things they represent - they are metaphors.

So IMO this means that we need to understand that what Enoch spoke in a lengthy parable after seeing visions should not be taken literally by anyone - especially because of the fact that the Book of Enoch is considered apocrypha both by Orthodox Judaism and by Christianity because parts are spurious and actually contradict scripture.

We need to stick with what is biblical - because what is biblical is the Revelation of God, and it is not biblical to call spirit messengers "the sons of God" (Whoever reads this should see Post #s 1 & 2 in this thread).

Continued in next post due to character limit ..

 

[Zao is life]

In fact, it is believed by a vast majority of Christian churches that Satan was created the highest-ranking angel of God before in pride he became the demon spirit called Satan.

That belief comes from a corrupt doctrine regarding a passage in scripture where God was referring to the king of Babylon, and the prophet was using the typical hyperbole and association with natural phenomena - like stars falling from the heavens - that all prophetic books use (Isaiah 14:12-14 where verses 4-11 is the context). The prophecy continues beyond verse 14 to speak of the coming downfall of the king of Babylon.

Scripture clears up this falsehood because we read in Hebrews how angels of God are spirits sent to minister to heirs of salvation.

.. and what you say above is the reason why I cannot understand why Christians assume that the spirits in prison that Jesus preached to by His Spirit when His soul went down to hades, were humans - because IMO it is those same fallen angels (spirit messengers) Peter and Jude said were imprisoned in tartaroo (which the Strong's Greek says is a prison in the deepest part of hades).

- and only the corrupt interpretation of the term the sons God in Genesis has what Peter and Jude wrote as referring to "angels who impregnated human women".

So many who believe in Christ do not stick with biblical Revelation but instead mix it up with what is not biblical !

And we also read that from the beginning Satan is a liar and murderer.

Cain was the first human one.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Yes. Some of them did not keep their proper appointed place, according to Peter and Jude. There must have been a first one who did not keep his proper appointed place.

So much confusion and contradiction can be cleared up if we begin to understand how poorly Bible translators have translated angelos throughout Scripture as angel instead of messengers as it should be.

It's not always clear whether it's referring to human or spirit messengers sent as ministering spirits, so for this I cannot blame the translators - but it would be better if modern English Bibles dropped the use of the word "angel" and replaced it with "messenger" in each case - because I believe that would help.

In that way as we seek for better understanding the context will help us to discern whether angelos should be translated human or demon spirit messenger of Satan, or human messenger of God such as John the Baptist, or angel of God sent to minister to heirs of salvation.[/unquote]

Ditto. Context is key and context is king in all literature (especially biblical literature).

 

[rwb]

That belief comes from a corrupt doctrine regarding a passage in scripture where God was referring to the king of Babylon, and the prophet was using the typical hyperbole and association with natural phenomena - like stars falling from the heavens - that all prophetic books use (Isaiah 14:12-14 where verses 4-11 is the context). The prophecy continues beyond verse 14 to speak of the coming downfall of the king of Babylon.

Exactly what I believe also.

.. and what you say above is the reason why I cannot understand why Christians assume that the spirits in prison that Jesus preached to by His Spirit when His soul went down to hades, were humans - because IMO it is those same fallen angels (spirit messengers) Peter and Jude said were imprisoned in tartaroo (which the Strong's Greek says is a prison in the deepest part of hades).

Is the preaching of the gospel for the physically dead or for the spiritually dead who are physically alive? Would you not agree the spirits of man in unbelief are in bondage (prison) to sin and death before being made alive (quickened) by the Spirit sent from Christ?

1 Peter 3:18-22 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

1 Peter 4:6 (KJV) For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The spirits of spiritually dead men of Old heard preaching through righteous Noah, yet they remained in unbelief and perished in the flood. Only Noah was saved through the Spirit of God, which is the baptism that saves man, for which the water of the flood symbolizes. What would be the purpose for the Spirit of Christ to descend down into the depths of hell to preach to the dead who no longer have any hope for being saved?

The gospel is preached to the spiritually dead (spirits in prison), who are physically alive and the gospel preached judges them. Would you not agree?

2 Peter 2:5 (KJV) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

I don't believe these two passages below speak of fallen angels of God. Because the angels of God according to Scripture are spirits sent to minister to the heirs of salvation. So none of the angels of God are or shall be cast into hell. Rather this is reference to sons of God (human messengers) who turning away from God fell into lusts of the world and flesh, sinning against God.

When man dies in unbelief, though physical life for them ceases they are not altogether forgotten by God. Rather they are cast into the deepest part of hell, unlike the faithful of Old who died and were carried by the angels of God (spirits) to the bosom of Abraham. They are in the deepest hell where they will be in darkness and silence until the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and ALL the physically dead are resurrected for condemnation or resurrected to life.

2 Peter 2:4-5 (KJV) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Jude 5-7 (KJV) I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

I believe both Peter and Jude are using the sons of God (not angels but human messengers) from old to prove that none who die in unbelief shall be spared. After physical death these PEOPLE who were called sons of God like Noah from the beginning, but who, like our first parents turned away from God through lusts of the flesh, desiring to be gods they, like Cain turned to the things of the world. Therefore they, like all who die in unbelief are not forgotten altogether by God but are reserved under darkness until the day of judgment.

It's not always clear whether it's referring to human or spirit messengers sent as ministering spirits, so for this I cannot blame the translators - but it would be better if modern English Bibles dropped the use of the word "angel" and replaced it with "messenger" in each case - because I believe that would help.

Yes, I agree.

 

[rwb]

Satan is not created being as most think. He is a spirit of man and he is among the congregation of God ON EARTH.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

TS how would you explain this verse?

I agree a spirit of man becomes like our father the devil before we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit of Christ. But what is the darkness and evil that God tells us He created? Would you agree the darkness existed before God spoke His Light into the darkness dividing the darkness from the light?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

TS how would you explain this verse?

I agree a spirit of man becomes like our father the devil before we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit of Christ. But what is the darkness and evil that God tells us He created? Would you agree the darkness existed before God spoke His Light into the darkness dividing the darkness from the light?

That is a bad translation of that verse. God did not create evil. Everything He created was very good (Genesis 1:31). Here are a couple of better translations of the verse (some other translations are similar):

Isaiah 45:7 (NKJV): I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’

Isaiah 45:7 (NIV): I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

Darkness is the opposite of light. The opposite of peace or prosperity is not evil. Evil is the opposite of good. The opposite of peace or prosperity is calamity or disaster. God creates calamities or disasters like the plagues in Egypt, the flood in Noah's day and the fire He sent down on Sodom and Gomorrah to punish people for their rebellion.

You have claimed before that I was wrong for saying that TS did not believe that Satan was a created spirit being. Do you understand now that he does believe that since he said "Satan is not created being as most think. He is a spirit of man"? Why do you not tell him that he's wrong for believing that?

 

[Zao is life]

You are correct about this below:

1 Peter 4:6 (KJV) [/B]For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Peter is speaking specifically about the gospel being preached in the above verses - but he does not specify that it's the gospel that Christ is preaching to 'spirits in prison' when he speaks about it in 1 Peter 3:19.

Whether correct or not, it's not illegitimate to infer that it's also the gospel that Peter said Christ preached to 'spirits in prison' in 1 Peter 3:19, but I don't believe that the word "quickening" (making alive again) ever refers to a 'dead' human spirit:

Christ's Spirit did not die, of course - His body was laid in the tomb and His soul (the word soul is used in both Psalm 16:10 and Acts 2:27) went to hades, where by the Spirit He preached to spirits who were in prison in hades.

His dead body was quickened (made alive again) by the same Spirit, and resurrected from the dead.

The gospel is preached to the spiritually dead (spirits in prison), who are physically alive and the gospel preached judges them. Would you not agree?

No, I don't agree . There is a difference between the temporary life [zoe] of all those who are alive [zao] and the eternal life [zoe]
which is in Christ that is given in Christ to those who believe in Him.

There is no one who is alive who does not have the breath (Spirit) of life from God causing them to be alive - but only those who have been given eternal life [zoe aionios] in Christ will be quickened from physical death and be resurrected from the dead to be alive [zao] forever after that point.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: (when the person is no longer living | alive) and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. -- Ecclesiastes 12:7.

I know this goes against main-stream church doctrine and theology but after decades of careful study of the scriptures I do not believe in such a thing as 'spiritually dead' men or that "quickening" is ever talking about the human spirit. I believe that the souls of men who have died apart from hope go to hades,

and the breath (spirit) of life which they had while they were still physically alive [zao] in their bodies, goes back to the God who gave it:

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: (when the person is no longer living | alive) and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. -- Ecclesiastes 12:7.

It's a very long subject and involves talking about every verse in scripture that talks about life [zoe] compared to every verse in scripture that talks about being alive [zao], as well as every New Testament verse talking about quickening (being made alive again). So I don't really want to go into it here in this thread.

Suffice to say that to me there's a lot of misunderstanding that has, over time, become interwoven into main-stream church doctrine and theology. So the moment you speak of 'spiritually dead' men (rather than the souls of the dead), I begin to want to talk about what is and is not biblical terminology:

The spirits of spiritually dead men of Old heard preaching through righteous Noah, yet they remained in unbelief and perished in the flood. Only Noah was saved through the Spirit of God, which is the baptism that saves man, for which the water of the flood symbolizes. What would be the purpose for the Spirit of Christ to descend down into the depths of hell to preach to the dead who no longer have any hope for being saved?

It's not the gospel that Peter said in the above verse was being preached. The Greek word kerusso means to herald something, the way newspaper salesmen of old would herald the news about something.

Again, it's not illegitimate to infer that it was the gospel being preached - but the Bible does not actually speak about "spiritually dead" people. The Bible does speak about (a) those who are physically alive [zao]; and those who are (b) physically dead - but not about "spiritually dead" people.

The eternal breath (spirit) of life [zoe] given to us in Christ goes back to the God who gave it when we die - hence our souls will be with Him until the resurrection of our bodies. Hades is the abode of souls who died without hope - because of their unbelief of the Word of God. They have no eternal spiritual life [zoe] which is in Christ alone - which is in the Word of God. Abraham's bosom was a separate place where the souls of those who died in faith in the Word of God (like that of Abraham) went to before Christ had died and risen again and ascended into heaven.

It's main-stream church theology and doctrine that has you believing that the Bible does talk about the spirits of 'spiritually dead' humans being "quickened from death" - but the Bible is actually talking only about the quickening of the dead human body - every time it mentions quickening. The new birth Jesus told us about is when we are given eternal life in Christ. To call it "the quickening of a ("dead") human spirit is not biblical terminology - though it's automatically accepted as biblical by most Christians - because of the way the free gift of eternal life given in Christ (who alone possesses eternal life in Himself) is interpreted in main-stream churches.

I don't believe these two passages below speak of fallen angels of God. Because the angels of God according to Scripture are spirits sent to minister to the heirs of salvation. So none of the angels of God are or shall be cast into hell.

I don't know if your interpretation of spirit messengers is biblical - but it goes against main-stream church doctrine and theology - so the fact that you have the courage to speak about what you believe - to me - as well as publicly in these boards - means that I have to respect that enough to say nothing about it until I've carefully considered what you say as much as I would expect you to carefully consider what I have said about the 'quickening' of 'spiritually dead' humans.

Rather this is reference to sons of God (human messengers) who turning away from God fell into lusts of the world and flesh, sinning against God.

There certainly are far more than one precedents in biblical history for what you say above, whether or not the verse is talking about human messengers.

When man dies in unbelief, though physical life for them ceases they are not altogether forgotten by God.

I agree. There would no day set for the judgment of the dead if they were forgotten.

Rather they are cast into the deepest part of hell, unlike the faithful of Old who died and were carried by the angels of God (spirits) to the bosom of Abraham.

I agree with you about the bosom of Abraham but not about who is or might be in the deepest part of hades.

They are in the deepest hell where they will be in darkness and silence until the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and ALL the physically dead are resurrected for condemnation or resurrected to life.

2 Peter 2:4-5 (KJV) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Jude 5-7 (KJV) I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

I believe both Peter and Jude are using the sons of God (not angels but human messengers) from old to prove that none who die in unbelief shall be spared. After physical death these PEOPLE who were called sons of God like Noah from the beginning, but who, like our first parents turned away from God through lusts of the flesh, desiring to be gods they, like Cain turned to the things of the world. Therefore they, like all who die in unbelief are not forgotten altogether by God but are reserved under darkness until the day of judgment.

I can only acknowledge that it is difficult to know which verses are talking about human messengers and which are talking about spirit messengers.

 

[rwb]

That is a bad translation of that verse. God did not create evil. Everything He created was very good (Genesis 1:31). Here are a couple of better translations of the verse (some other translations are similar):

The KJV is NOT a bad translation, several reputable translations say the same thing. I'm not in the habit of translation hopping to find a translation to fit my opinion.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV16) I forme the light, and create darkenesse: I make peace, and create euill: I the Lord do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (ASV) I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (Bish) It is I that created light and darknesse, I make peace and trouble: yea euen I the Lorde do all these thinges.
Isaiah 45:7 (DBY) forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (GB) I forme the light and create darkenes: I make peace and create euill: I the Lorde doe all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (WEB) I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (Wyc) Y am the Lord, and noon other God is; fourmynge liyt, and makynge derknessis, makynge pees, and fourmynge yuel; Y am the Lord, doynge alle these thingis.
Isaiah 45:7 (YLT) Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

Since God created both darkness and evil, and calls all that He created "very good", it's apparent that God uses both of these to bring about good. That's why it is my desire to better understand the darkness that existed when God spoke His supernatural light into the darkness calling the light day and the darkness night before He created natural light of the sun, moon and stars on day four.

1. Why did God create darkness and evil?
2. Is the darkness that existed when God spoke supernatural light into the darkness a metaphor for the spirit of evil and death?
3. What is the purpose for God creating darkness and evil seemingly before speaking supernatural light into the darkness?
4. How, if at all, does the fact that A&E were created without the knowledge of good or evil tell us about the purpose for which God created darkness and evil?
5. Since good and evil are emotions that must be experienced to be known, does the fact that A&E were created WITHOUT knowledge of good and evil give us the reason that Christ was ordained via Covenant promise to be the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, and also the reason that God created darkness and evil?

IOW did man have to experience the spirit of darkness and death before they could have knowledge of the Spirit of Light and Life?

You have claimed before that I was wrong for saying that TS did not believe that Satan was a created spirit being. Do you understand now that he does believe that since he said "Satan is not created being as most think. He is a spirit of man"? Why do you not tell him that he's wrong for believing that?

Because I agree with TS! Man was created and given life through the Spirit of God in them. When man sinned against God, the Spirit of God departed from them and was replaced by another spirit of this world. That spirit is called Satan, and since the fall of man all of mankind before being born again is the spirit of their father the Devil. That is the spirit of man from the fall and shall remain the spirit that giving man natural life until man is born again of the Spirit of God, who gives all who believe everlasting eternal life through the Spirit of Christ in them.

1 Samuel 16:14-15 (KJV) But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

This is why Scripture tells us that man sins from the abundance of their own hearts and minds. Because the spirit within fallen man is of Satan, and all that is of their father the devil comes from within fallen man's own spirit.

Luke 6:45 (KJV) A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

When one reads all that TS has to say on the spirit of man, we discover this is what he is saying when he says Satan [within man] is not created, because evil comes from within the hearts of every man of the same spirit as he. TS does not say that Satan does not exist, but rather that his existence is dependent upon fallen man and demonic messengers being his servants of evil that brings death.

 

[rwb]

but he does not specify that it's the gospel that Christ is preaching to 'spirits in prison' when he speaks about it in 1 Peter 3:19.

It is not Christ preaching the gospel to spirits in prison. After the Spirit within Christ ascended to the Father after He physically died, being spiritually alive, Christ sent His Spirit to be within believers, through whom, believers, faithfully preach to spirits in prison, those who are physically alive but spiritually dead in trespasses and sins being bound by sin and death (in prison).

1 Peter 3:18-19 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 1:12 (KJV) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Colossians 2:13 (KJV) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5-6 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

but I don't believe that the word "quickening" (making alive again) ever refers to a 'dead' human spirit:

If it's not the spirit within man that is dead in trespasses and sins, what part of man is dead in trespasses and sins since Paul addresses physically alive people?

where by the Spirit He preached to spirits who were in prison in hades.

Why? There is no longer hope from the grave after physical death!

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: (when the person is no longer living | alive) and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. -- Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Just as the Spirit of Christ returned to heaven alive, so too all who have been born again shall physically die and at the moment of death they are spiritual body, living souls without human form, in heaven with the Lord. Because the spiritual life they received when they were born again of the Spirit of Christ in them is eternal/everlasting life that shall never die, even though our body of flesh shall.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I don't know if your interpretation of spirit messengers is biblical - but it goes against main-stream church doctrine and theology

It is the Word of God, not I that tells us angels of God are spirits sent to minister to the heirs of salvation. This is how we can know with assurance that neither Satan nor his demonic messengers were created good angels but fell through sin.

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:14 (KJV) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I can only acknowledge that it is difficult to know which verses are talking about human messengers and which are talking about spirit messengers.

This I fully agree. I feel it's a real shame the translators did not remain consistent when translating angelos from the Greek, and malak from Hebrew, because both if translated consistently 'messengers' would have made it easier to discern whether the messenger is spirit (demon/angel) or human.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

TS how would you explain this verse?

Good morning. How are you doing so far. I have been busy with other things. You brought up a verse that I think I should response to help you (and others, Lord willing) to understand. I will split my response into two posts due to limit of space.

I realize that some have read this verse and surmised that it means that God creates sin or wickedness. This is a misunderstanding that is usually based on a lack of knowledge or understanding of the word that is translated evil and how it is often used within Scripture. Many have concluded that evil always means iniquity, but that is actually NOT true as it pertains to Scripture. The word translated "evil" does not "necessarily" mean sinful. We use the word evil today almost exclusively as a synonym for iniquity or wickedness, but that was NOT always the case throughout history or in the Bible. The word used in Isaiah is the Hebrew [ra'], literally meaning something that is "not good." It comes from a root word meaning "to be spoiled," and by extension something that is not good, or that is bad. It does not mean evil in the sense that we might think of the word today as wickedness, but it is more correctly understood as anything that is "not good" to us. For example, if a child receives a spanking, or we go through some adversity or we have something befall us that we deem "not good," we can say it is [ra'] or bad. e.g.:

Jeremiah 24:2

• "One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad."

That Hebrew word translated "bad" there is the exact same word [ra'] that is translated evil. Yet, the fruit is not wicked or sinful fruit, it is simply bad fruit. The fruit has become spoiled so that it is "not good" to eat. Fruit is an inanimate object, and cannot be evil in the sense that we understand evil/wicked today. Selah!

As a practical example, if I were to walk out my door, trip over the steps and fall, it is a bad [ra'] thing, but it is not evil or wickedness, nor is it sin. It is simply something that was not good for me. Unfortunately, in our day, our understanding of what is evil (or bad) and what is evil (or wickedness) are often regarded as one and the same when in fact often they are very different!

To be sure, evil certainly can be something wicked or sinful because those "are" bad things. But evil in Scripture can also be defined as spoiled, bad, adversity, trouble, misfortune, calamity, natural disaster, or suffering. So it should is quite clear that evil is not necessarily sinful. And of course, allowing the Scripture to interpret itself, it bears witness to this truth consistently.

Proverbs 15:10

• "Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die."

Again, the word translated grievous is [ra'], and is the exact same word often translated evil. Correction in this context is not at all evil in the sense we understand it to be wickedness. Get it? It is actually a very good and righteous thing according to God. But this word [ra'] is used here to illustrate it is a "bad" or unpleasant experience from the point of view of the person being corrected. This passage certainly cannot mean that correction is evil in the sense of it being "sinfulness" or "wickedness." It may be a painful, sorrowful, grievous experience, meaning a experience that is "not good" to him that receives it. But 'ultimately' God declares correction is for our good! So then, in the context of Isaiah chapter 45 where the Lord declares that He creates evil, that is the sense in which the word is used. Things that may be bad a bad experience in our lives, but that is not wickedness on His part. It is self evident that something bad "can be" sin, but something that we consider bad is certainly not always sin. Bad (or what is called evil) things include a whole list of other non-sinful occurrences. Again, adversity or trouble are bad things that come upon us, and indeed [ra'] is also translated both adversity and trouble in scripture. But this is in no wise sinful or wickedness.

Psalms 41:1b

• "..Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble."

That word translated trouble there is the exact same word often translated evil or bad. There are many different types of things that we might call "evil." There are things that are morally or lawlessly "bad," which we call sin, but there are also things that are naturally bad, such as a hurricanes, a cold or a accident. There are things that are experientially bad, such as a death in the family or some personal correction. We can speak of a drought, a tornado or an earthquake as an evil or bad thing. But it is not in any way considered as a sin created by God in Him sending an earthquake or a drought. It could be His judgment, which again is in no way wickedness. Likewise, judgment day is an evil day because man has to stand before God and be judged, but it is not a sinful or wicked day for God to judge. If one walks down the street and a building falls on him that he dies, it is an evil or bad thing, but it was not a wicked/sinful thing. Get it? And so when we read that "God creates evil", it is NOT saying that God creates sin, because that is antithetical to the nature of God, and is contradictory to all that righteous God declares of Himself.

James 1:13-14

• "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
• But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."

Clearly God does not create, tempt man with, or make anyone sin. Man did! However, He does create bad/evil things in this world that are neither wicked or unrighteous. God creates hell, and that is a bad (evil) thing for people, but it is not sin, and it is perfectly consistent with God's justice, righteousness and word to create it. God withdraws light, and thus creates darkness, but this is not Him creating sin. God takes away His hand of peace, and thus war is created, but this is not God making man war, but God allowing man to war. God removes His hand of restraint from man's desperately wicked heart and it is hardened, but this is not God forcing him into iniquity. This is God allowing him to sin. For God is "not obligated" to keep man from sinning, maintain peace, hold back plagues, or soften man's heart.

(Continue to next post)

 

[TribulationSigns]

(Continue from previous post)

And when we look at the very context of Isaiah chapter 45, it becomes perfectly clear that this is what God is saying.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:"

Is God under any debt or obligation to man to give him light? Is He under any contract, burden or moral liability to man to give him peace? Not at all! He can withdraw these blessings at any time. Notice the contrast between these things. Light contrasted over against the darkness and Peace contrasted over against evil or bad. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away--Blessed be the name of the Lord. The opposite of peace is war in one context, but in another it is to be troubled or in adversity. God can withdraw peace and thus create adversity for you, and yet it is not God being wicked. Likewise, He can remove these evil things and restore peace to your life. It all depends upon how the word "evil" is used. God is not obligated to bring man peace, nor to restrain adversity, nor to shine His light upon anyone, nor to keep anyone from darkness. That "promise" is reserved unto His covenanted people only. God bound Satan, but by the same token God can loose him again because He's not obligated to keep him bound. In this same way, God creates adversity, trouble or chastisement, and to the person receiving it, it is a bad or evil thing. But it is not sin or wickedness, it is His divine right to do so. And scripture is replete with examples.

Leviticus 26:25

• "And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy."

This is an example of the opposite of peace, as God looses all these bad/evil things as judgment against these people. It is a evil or bad thing to the people who are under God's judgment, but it is not a sinful act of God. We can see from the context of Isaiah 45 that this type "evil" is what God is referring to creating by removing their peace.

Amos 3:6-7

• "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
• Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

Sin is not God's work or doing, it is the work of men who pervert God's righteous work. It is because of their own spirit of disobedience, Satan. Selah! They are the wicked men. God sending evil upon a city in the form of taking His hand of restraint off wicked man that he would destroy it is judgment, not sin. It is a bad thing sent upon them because of these men's lusts and sins, not sin created by God. When we read that God creates evil, we must understand that the Lord is declaring His complete sovereignty over all the earth. He is illustrating that the trouble, afflictions, and adversities [ra'] He sends are His the punishments for sin, the judgments which are under His divine providence. As Job so patiently and humbly stated, shall we think to only receive good from God, and not the "bad" as well?

Job 2:10

• "But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

The word evil is the same Hebrew word [Ra'], meaning bad. Evil at the hands of God is not sin or wickedness, it is bad things that the people do not like. Removing His restraint brings His judgments, and the withdrawal of His hand of protection is how God creates evil or trouble in our lives. The righteous judgment of God is not an unlawful or a sinful act itself, it is exactly what man should expect of a righteous God that is obligated to justice. All are the well deserved, just righteous judgments upon the wicked.

Selah

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The KJV is NOT a bad translation,

This shows your lack of attention to detail. I did not say that the KJV is a bad translation. I said it was a bad translation of that particular verse and didn't say anything about that translation, overall.

several reputable translations say the same thing. I'm not in the habit of translation hopping to find a translation to fit my opinion.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV16) I forme the light, and create darkenesse: I make peace, and create euill: I the Lord do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (ASV) I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (Bish) It is I that created light and darknesse, I make peace and trouble: yea euen I the Lorde do all these thinges.
Isaiah 45:7 (DBY) forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (GB) I forme the light and create darkenes: I make peace and create euill: I the Lorde doe all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (WEB) I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (Wyc) Y am the Lord, and noon other God is; fourmynge liyt, and makynge derknessis, makynge pees, and fourmynge yuel; Y am the Lord, doynge alle these thingis.
Isaiah 45:7 (YLT) Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

Since God created both darkness and evil, and calls all that He created "very good", it's apparent that God uses both of these to bring about good.

You completely ignored what I said about the fact that evil is not the opposite of peace. The verse is describing opposites. Darkness is the opposite of light. Evil is not the opposite of peace. Calamity or disaster is the opposite of peace. The opposite of evil is good, not peace.

That's why it is my desire to better understand the darkness that existed when God spoke His supernatural light into the darkness calling the light day and the darkness night before He created natural light of the sun, moon and stars on day four.

It's very simple. Go outside at night. That's darkness. Go outside during the day. That's light. Togtehter they make up a day. The darkness and light were divided into day and night on the first day. To try to claim that it's talking about metaphorical light and darkness would require you to deny that the first day was the first of six literal days when God created the heavens and the earth. With your interpretation, you turn the first day into a metaphorical day instead of a literal day divided into day and night.

1. Why did God create darkness and evil?

He didn't create evil. That's an invalid question. Everything he created was very good (Genesis 1:31), but you try to change that by saying he created evil. No, He did not. That puts the blame for evil on God instead of on His created beings where it belongs.

2. Is the darkness that existed when God spoke supernatural light into the darkness a metaphor for the spirit of evil and death?

No, it was natural darkness in the absence of natural light.

Because I agree with TS!

He said that Satan is not a created spirit being. So, you agree with that now? If so, he sure has you fooled. I already know that he has TS fooled.

Man was created and given life through the Spirit of God in them. When man sinned against God, the Spirit of God departed from them and was replaced by another spirit of this world. That spirit is called Satan, and since the fall of man all of mankind before being born again is the spirit of their father the Devil.

What a bunch of gibberish! So, it appears that you are indeed now denying that Satan was a created spirit being? Where do you think the "spirit of this world" came from?

That is the spirit of man from the fall

And there it is. You have been duped by TS and, despite not long ago acknowledging that Satan and demons/devil are separate spirit beings from human beings, you have now decided that Satan is "the spirit of man". Unbelievable. You should know better than this. Do you think the spirit of man tempted Jesus in the desert? How does that work exactly?

and shall remain the spirit that giving man natural life until man is born again of the Spirit of God, who gives all who believe everlasting eternal life through the Spirit of Christ in them.

1 Samuel 16:14-15 (KJV) But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

This is why Scripture tells us that man sins from the abundance of their own hearts and minds. Because the spirit within fallen man is of Satan, and all that is of their father the devil comes from within fallen man's own spirit.

Luke 6:45 (KJV) A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

When one reads all that TS has to say on the spirit of man, we discover this is what he is saying when he says Satan [within man] is not created, because evil comes from within the hearts of every man of the same spirit as he. TS does not say that Satan does not exist, but rather that his existence is dependent upon fallen man and demonic messengers being his servants of evil that brings death.

It's very sad that you have allowed yourself to be deceived by that false teacher. TS says that Satan is not a created spirit being and you are agreeing with him. And he says that about angels and demons/devils as well. Do you also agree with him about that? He sure has you wrapped around his finger.

 

[TribulationSigns]

This shows your lack of attention to detail. I did not say that the KJV is a bad translation. I said it was a bad translation of that particular verse and didn't say anything about that translation, overall.

Ah, I see. So now the KJV is not necessarily a bad translation... except for that one verse, the only one that inconveniently refuses to back up your doctrine. Brilliant observation. Got it.

And as for the rest of your post — claiming that God never created evil, despite what Scripture clearly says? Pure nonsense. You’re the one making yourself look foolish.

 

[rwb]

Good morning. How are you doing so far. I have been busy with other things. You brought up a verse that I think I should response to help you (and others, Lord willing) to understand. I will split my response into two posts due to limit of space.

Hello TS, thanks for responding. We're doing well, back in Az now. Had to go home for short time, family crisis. Our daughter contracted mrsa staph infection that severely infected her leg, to save her life the leg had to be amputated. But now she and we are doing ok.

I apologize for not being clearer about what I was asking. My question is focused on the darkness the Lord says He created. After reading your reply about evil, I agree with all that you have said.

I've been focused on the darkness that appears to exist before God spoke His light into the darkness. What I would really like to know from you is whether or not you believe that God created the darkness knowing that He would create man without knowledge of good or evil. Knowing that Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. Since good and evil are emotions that cannot be created, do you think God created the darkness for man to experience evil? And of course, by experiencing evil, man would also learn of the goodness that comes by God's grace?

I look forward to your reply, if not here pm is also fine.

 

[rwb]

Ah, I see. So now the KJV is not necessarily a bad translation... except for that one verse, the only one that inconveniently refuses to back up your doctrine. Brilliant observation. Got it.

And as for the rest of your post — claiming that God never created evil, despite what Scripture clearly says? Pure nonsense. You’re the one making yourself look foolish.

We have to remember he has a bias to maintain! Even if this bias makes him look foolish, he refuses to let it go!