The Sovereign Wills

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Netchaplain

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No worthy student of the Bible would question that God has a sovereign purpose or that all things are working toward the realization of that purpose. But it must be acknowledged as well from such passages as Rom 12:1, 2; Gal 5:16; Eph 4:30; 1 Thess 5:19 and 1 John 1:9 that the appeal is to the human will, with every implication present which might establish the truth that, in the divine plan, the human will determines the whole course of the believer’s life.

The failure at this point with high Calvinists arises from the fact that, in their zeal to defend the doctrine of divine sovereignty, they do not recognize how the very sovereignty of God in its outworking utilizes the human will as its instrument, not, however, by any form of coercion (rather by “goodness” Rom 2:4—NC), but by that form of persuasion which enlightens and engenders holy desires to which the will may respond and by which it may be motivated. Here it must be asserted with all possible force that when a decision is made regarding some step in the spiritual life, even under the most powerful, impelling inducements which God may impart, that action of the human will is sovereign and free in its own choice

This same procedure characterizes the whole undertaking when a soul is saved through faith in Christ. It matters nothing that the human will has no power in itself to accept the Savior. The heart must be moved completely by the Holy Spirit or no choice of Christ is made; but just the same when the choice is made it is not due to coercion but to the will acting in its sovereign freedom. None can doubt the implication in the text which avers: “Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely” (Rev 22:17).

It is misleading to assert that “whosoever God wills may come.” It nevertheless is true, but not in the same sense in which high Calvinists have presented it, namely, that whosoever God compels will come—rather it should be stated thus: that whosoever God calls with an efficacious call, which call is a persuasion sufficient to guarantee the determined choice, will, of his own sovereign determination, come.

Let it not be supposed that this interpretation of an important Biblical doctrine lends any support to the Arminian notion that unregenerated men—because of some hypothetical, universal impartation of “common grace”—may at any time, under any circumstances, and by virtue of their own unaided vision and determination accept Christ as Savior if they will to do so. Only tragic misconceptions have been the fruit of an extreme Calvinism which makes no place in its reckoning for the inherent, constitutional necessity of immediate divine action upon the human will before the right choice can be made at all.

The spiritual life is in all instances presented as the result of the free choice of the believer’s will; but this doctrine must not be left to stand alone. Another doctrine of even more vital significance is the truth that the will must be moved by God.

- L S Chafer
 

Netchaplain

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Also, I believe the offer for salvation is to the world (John 3:17), thus mankind is called (as in "many called" Matt 22:14, not as in "the called" Rom 8:28). It's also axiomatic in Scripture that God is omniscient and therefore foreknows everyone's choices even before creation and thus, foreknew most of mankind would not choose Him—Matt 7:13, 14.

Whether one can or cannot have the desire to choose God on their own (which may be in the “drawing”), I believe when the choice is made, God's "drawing" (John 6:44) of one to Christ is without failure ("shall come" 6:37), and is permanent (6:39; Rom 11:29).

Concerning Judas, he fell from his “part” of Apostleship only, not from the faith (Acts 1:25), “For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him” (John 6:64; 13:11).
 

DPMartin

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I don’t know guys, its not that Calvinism is the issue, its really a matter of who is responsible for you being saved at all? And it sounds like you claim responsibility by you making that decision.

We didn’t chose to be born in to the world, why is there a requirement of choice on man’s part to be born in the Spirit?
One must first be born of the flesh, by the will of others already in the flesh. So those born of Spirit are born of the will of what? Men? How can flesh be the will of Spirit?

I mean really, who is in charge of what here? No one reveals the Truth of God but God Himself. So how is it that some one knows God through the Lord Jesus Christ? Some know what is said of the God of Israel, and some know the God of Israel as their God.

Consider, what revelation is, if you see the house, you not only believe the house is there, you know the house is there. No decision required. If you never seen the house, then you can only decide whether to believe the witness that the house is there.

Which is the place most so called Christians are, in and have decided to stay, and demonstrate by continually seeking and expressing justification for their decision, and that it is their decision.
 

Netchaplain

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DPMartin said:
its really a matter of who is responsible for you being saved at all? And it sounds like you claim responsibility by you making that decision.
Hi DPM - Thanks for your input, which I find interesting. In order to maintain that God is impartial (2 Chron 19:7; Rom 2:11; Eph 6:9; Col 3:25; 1 Pet 1:17), I prefer to believe that God's foreknowledge of man's decisions are instrumentally crucial, which is evident in God allowing Adam choices to obey Him (Gen 2:16, 17), in which of course He knew what his choices would be.

The entirety of Scripture evinces the importance of man's choices, which are too overwhelming to avoid or miss. Other than Adam's autonomy being a prime example, another is Deuteronomy 30:19, in which God is appealing to others to make the right choice.

I believe there is greater significance concerning the concepts of His "drawing," that it is all God's work in bringing others to His Son, and the permanency of His work in the individual. Some may refer to it as "perseverance of the saints" (man-centered), but I prefer the "preservation of God" (Jude 1:24).

Regardless of one's views concerning Biblical doctrine, differentiation must be identified between essential and nonessential doctrine, and therefore greater significance should be considered towards understanding the former (i.e. Rom 10:9--essential doctrine for receiving salvation; Eph 1:5, 11--nonessential doctrine for receiving salvation, but rather for growth in salvation).

It has been well said that, "Christians should have unity in all doctrines essential; liberty in all doctrines nonessential, and love (charity) in all doctrine."
 

DPMartin

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NetChaplain

Well, let me start with, how is it, that if God commands, there is a choice in the matter?

If a soldier is commanded in the army, he has no choice correct? Hence if Adam exercised God’s Judgement (choice) expressed in God’s Commandment to Adam we wouldn’t be debating this at all.
2 Chron:19:7 is a instruction spoken by the King of Israel of the day to a people he has selected for a particular duty in Israel that are God’s chosen people in God’s chosen land.

Rom:2:11 has nothing to do with whether one has choice in the matter of salvation. Since God has no respect of person, then why did God choose to have respect for Abel, and Abel’s offering? Could that be in verses 9 and 10? God is no fool, He is going to choose the good ground that has the greatest potential for the highest yield. Just as any farmer would when he has to invest time and money to get his return from the ground. Don’t forget, God invested His Son, with the expectation of a result.

Just to keep from going on and on, its true God treats all the same, but your view of that seems incorrect. He treats all who are His the same and He treats all who are not His the same. When it comes to the unsaved the door is open to all with the same requirement for all, and when the door is closed it is closed to all.

Note the major players in the OT found favor and or Grace in the Lord God’s sight, and if anyone thinks that He doesn’t favor His Beloved Son over all else is fooling themselves. Noah had His Grace and favor, Abraham had His favor and Grace, Moses had His Grace and favor, King David had His favor and Grace, the Prophets had His favor and Grace. When Jesus walked amongst His People, what so ever the Lord asked it was granted. Its common knowledge that one would go to one who has the favor of God, to receive favor of God. But again all these people are chosen before they expressed to their fellow man that they experienced the Lord God of Israel’s Grace and favor.

You point to Adam as a example of choice in the hands of man, but Adam didn’t choose to be in the life he was given, Adam didn’t choose to be in the Garden and Adam didn’t choose what he could eat in the Garden and continue the life he was given. The Lord God’s Commandment expressed God’s Choice for Adam. They rejected God’s choice for them and died. And yes they choose to judge for themselves what is good and evil for themselves and sealed it by eating of that agreement with the words of the serpent. Hence their justification of being in the flesh is the eating of bread, do to the sweat of the brow. But again who’s choice? That choice was expressed in the commandment. God being sovereign could have said, don’t eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or you will be sick as a dog for six weeks. Death to those who ate of the tree was also God’s choice. But again you are talking choice to receive salvation and Adam was talking to the Almighty before this happened. Also note the life that was given to Adam Lk:3:38: Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Adam was given a particular life that he lost in the garden and to keep that life is by God’s choice. And it's by God's choice does anyone have that Life.

And your reference to Deuteronomy is in the mist of what? Did those in the desert choose to be descendants of Abraham? Did they choose to be out there in the desert with the Almighty? Obviously not. but the Lord God of Israel chose to take them out of Egypt, and dwell in their mist. Not some thing they expected.
You try to show God is impartial but yet by Grace through faith are you saved, and the saved and the unsaved are not treated the same, though all who are saved and are to be saved come the same Way, hence God's justice on the matter.
 

Floyd

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Is Our “Free Will” Of Value, Or Is Everything Predestined?



There is a powerful teaching abounding in Christendom, that all of us are “predestined” to be in one destination or another after death; often loosely termed “heaven or hell”.



This teaching, which is a derivation of Calvin and others, states that our “freewill” is a myth of the human mind, and that in the case of “life after death” all is set in stone!

The fact that Calvin did not make this statement, but that one of his pupils did, has not stopped the bandwagon! See: http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20Elect%20Calvin%20onwards.htm



In the terminology of this "debate", the "Heaven destined" are called the "Elect", and the "Hell" destined are called "Reprobates". This controversy has been raging now for many hundreds of years, and was also fuelled by the "Reformation" of Protestantism against the Roman Catholic Church. At the same time and subsequently, many "Doctrines" were also being reviewed, one such being "Predestination"; and in the opinion of the writers, became extreme in their human definition, as opposed to what Almighty God's Word states. That state of affairs gelled into the various "Doctrines" that are propagated today in first Europe, and latterly worldwide. Many men (some in sincerity) made careers and names for themselves, which still resound today in Christendom!



The way out of the maze of men's conflicting opinions, is to turn to God's Word prayerfully, and to take note of what He says, particularly our Lord Christ Jesus.



So, is freewill real, or a figment of imagination?

The answer is, it is real!

As it is real, what is its purpose? Leaving aside the day to day experience, when choice (free will) is exercised, there is clearly a greater purpose for so great a God given facility.



Using the Bible (as the source of all knowledge) as opposed to the works of other men, we see that freewill was evident at the beginning of this Creation. It was clearly so important that one of the greatest of God's created beings called Satan, wanted to corrupt the “freewill” decisions of Adam and Eve! The events are related below:





We need to start at the beginning of the relationship between God, man, and woman. The first restriction, or command that God placed on Adam (Gen. 2:17), was regarding the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil”, and the prohibition of the eating of its fruit. God said that if Adam disobeyed, “thou shalt surely die”. This commandment was given to Adam, before Eve was created, and therefore was his responsibility.



Eve was then created from Adam’s flesh (Gen. 2:22), and was his responsibility. The Serpent [Heb.nachash,= the old Serpent, transformed as an angel of light], then approached Eve, and commented to her that God had given all fruit of the garden to be eaten. Eve agreed, but with the exception of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, and stated, “God hath said, >Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die<”. In these words, Eve misquoted and added to the original, (Gen. 2:16-17). The words “neither shall ye touch it” are not in the original, and the word “lest” is changed from the word “surely”. This may seem pedantic, but is crucial to the case, and the history of mankind from that point. Since that time, the changing and additions to the Word of God, together with the current disregard for It, have caused, and is causing the complete ruin of humankind! In the case of Eve’s distortion and addition, the use of “lest” (in case) implies a possibility, instead of the certainty of death, as the word “surely” (certainly) shows. Satan immediately confirms Eve’s suggestion, and states in Gen. 3:4, “Ye shall not surely die” (emphatic), and goes on to say in v5, that when they eat, they will be as Gods, and will have the knowledge of good and evil. Also in the same verse, Satan implies that God is holding back from them something which they should have! Eve then eats of the forbidden fruit, and gives it to her husband who is with her, and he also ate it, v6. In Gen. 3:9, God calls to Adam (not Eve) in the garden, which emphasises Adam’s position in God’s order, and his responsibility! Adam hid from God, due to the knowledge of his nakedness, and in v12 blames the woman, and by implication God, for his own lack of integrity, and lack of courage when needed, in not resisting Eve’s wishes! God then berated Eve, who blamed the Serpent.



So, Adam blamed Eve and God. Eve blamed the Serpent (Satan). Each one would not take responsibility for their actions, despite the fact of their free will! This has continued ever since, with many variations on the theme!



God then pronounced punishment on each. The Serpent is first, and interestingly there is no dialogue between the Serpent and God, as both already know their relative positions, since the rebellion of Satan! That is yet to be concluded in the events prophesied in the pages of Revelation.



Eve is next, and in God’s words to her v15, is the beautiful prophecy of the Salvation in Christ, “It (Christ = the seed of the woman) shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel”. In v16, the Lord increases the “sorrow” in conception, and childbirth, and “thy desire shall be subject to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee”. In today’s world, such a comment is totally unacceptable, even in some Bible believers. In some eastern religions, there is a titular acceptance. This is especially the case since the Women’s Liberation Movement. However, variations of human opinion do not change the inerrancy of the Word of God as we shall see later.



Adam’s punishment is started with the words v17, ”Because thou has harkened unto the voice of thy wife”. Many men would say here that they have no choice! However leaving that behind, God is saying that he should not have paid heed to her, and should have easily remembered what God had said on the subject, which of course he did! God then pronounces the rest of the punishment, the cursed ground, the sorrow in the eating of it. In v8, the thorns and thistles, and the eating of the herb. In v19, the work of the body to bring forth the food, until returning to dust himself! All that because of disobedience!



Reminding ourselves at this stage that we are only concerned with God’s Word, and not with the many satanically inspired human arguments and opinions regarding the Bible, we revisit 2Tim. 3:16, and its expression of the sanctity, purity, and reliability of the Bible, and its use for doctrine, correction, and instruction.



We know from Scripture that created beings, angels and humans have free will. As is shown throughout Scripture, that freewill is important to Almighty God. As we know from Scripture, Satan rebelled against God, and has ever since been trying to usurp and undermine all of God’s will for all His created creatures. Scripture says that Satan was the most magnificent being that God created. The word Satan is Hebrew, and means “an adversary, an enemy, an accuser”. He has other names which are related to Greek, and his role in events yet to be. Note that he is a “created” being, not “begotten”, as only Jesus has that designation! Before Satan became the “adversary”, his name was “Lucifer”, which means “Morning star”, and his fall from favour is described in Isaiah 14:12-15.



There is much confusion and myth regarding Satan, starting in the Garden of Eden. He is there in Gen. 3:1, called a “Serpent”, from the Hebrew “nachash”, which means “to hiss, mutter, whisper, etc.”, which has been translated subsequently as “Serpent”. An allied Chaldean word means “bright”, which chimes with other Scriptural comment describing Satan as having a “glorious appearance”. In Isaiah 6:2-6, the Hebrew word “seraph” is used to describe “heavenly beings” as “burning bright, and elevated”. In Numbers 21:8, “saraph” is “fiery Serpent”. The words seraph and nachash are both used in Scripture to describe a Serpent and a glorious spirit being. In 2 Cor.11:3, Paul fears for the Corinthians, that they will be beguiled as Adam and Eve, and refers to the appearance of Satan on that occasion in 2 Cor.11-14, ("and no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light").



So, when Satan beguiled Eve, he was magnificent to behold, as he spoke to her saying “surely thou wilt not die”, Gen. 3:4, and he has been saying it ever since, with the consequence that many humans will listen to him, and will go to their destruction! They will listen to Satan, even though they know the difference between good and evil, and are exercising their freewill in so doing.



In summary of this brief description; Satan was the most beautiful of God’s created creatures. He became enchanted by his own beauty and power, and wanted/wants God’s position Ezek. 28. He is cast from favour, Isaiah 14:12. His name is changed after his rebellion to Satan, and he is allowed to try to stop trust and faith in God on earth, (Job). This process is still under way, and will not end until the events described in Rev. 20:2.

All this is allowed by Almighty God at the present time and in to the future, to honour the freewill that He has given to Satan. The same principle of freewill in all human kind is also underway until the culmination of the Age of Grace, and is part of the antitheses to Satan's rebellion against God. That freewill is not in itself the antitheses, but is embodied in the death sacrifice of Christ Jesus on the Cross at Calvary. The focus of the freewill of Humankind at the present time, is whether or not to trust Christ Jesus for the Salvation He offers, which is defined as complete absolution from their Sin nature, and their Sins committed in life.



In the Garden of Eden, God set up a situation to counter Satan’s rebellion, and freewill is at the core of that plan! What many people do not know is that all of His heavenly creation is watching the outcome of this universal struggle, (Eph. 3:10), and that they too have freewill! We know from Revelation that Satan has had great success in heaven, and that one third of the angels of heaven have converted to him by their freewill! He has been working simultaneously on earth to capture humans in the same way! There is to be a time, some think soon, when Satan will be cast to Earth for a short time, and that time will be terrible for Earth's inhabitants. In the last three and one half years of that time, it is probable that all earth's inhabitants will be required to acknowledge the ruler, (The Antichrist), by receiving his mark on their hand or forehead! That will be a "freewill" decision. (there is some uncertainty as to whether Israel only is involved or the Nations of the world also).

Those that by their "freewill" allow themselves to be thus marked, will eventually join Satan and his angels in the "Lake of Fire", (Rev. 20:15).



Satan has had, is having, great success in heaven, converting angels to his side, as they exercise their "freewill".

He also wants the nation of Israel to fail completely, so they also have been the focus of his special attentions, and by their "freewill", they failed to obey God, or recognise their Messiah, Christ Jesus. So they were "set to one side" (Lo-Ammi) in AD70.

Since Acts 28, the nations of the world are in Satan's sights, as they have been “turned to” (Acts 28:28) with the Gospel of Christ Crucified! See: http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Free%20will.htm

They (the nations) now have the opportunity to exercise their "freewill", to accept or reject Christ Jesus!

http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20Call%20of%20God.htm



So, we have seen from the above in Scripture (God’s Word, as opposed to man's interpretation), that freewill is so important, that Satan wants control of it via perverted Scripture! That being the case, he (Satan) wants control of people by perverting the Bible's Words. This he does in many ways. In the past by using men with reputations for powerful speaking, and or writing, and the list of those men of the past is too long to tabulate here. In the present, by the same methods!



It is interesting to note the comment of a Christ-One in the past. "Do not look for Satan in Soho, but in the Pulpit"!



Constantine and Helena had control for many centuries via the "Holy Roman Empire". Later, after Martin Luther, opinions which caused/cause divisions in "doctrine" were propounded as said, by many "learned" men, such as Calvin, Arminian, Knox etc. Bearing in mind the above Link regarding Calvin, (which shows that he did not propose the thesis which bears his name).

These "Doctrines" in particular still cause great confusion with people, which in turn lead to heartache for those not willing or able to resist strong Pastors or speakers who promise "damnation" if they are not obeyed or adhered to!



When the claims of these doctrines are examined, there are parts which ring true to Scripture, and some that don't. They are so constructed that they oppose! This is seized upon and used by strong leaders, and the gullible and weak are consumed by both the teaching, and the men.

Satan through men, still wants to control peoples minds and hearts, and also as an added benefit to him, their Bank balance!



Some commentators say that the fact that Christ’s people, (His Body), are known before the “overthrow” (mistranslated “foundation”) of the world, means that they do not have a choice in the matter! They take their mistaken opinion from Eph. 1:4, and 1Peter 1:20, and elsewhere in Scripture.



It is fact that Christ Jesus was “foreknown”, and as such, that the many parts of His Body are therefore “foreknown”. However, the individual parts still have to exercise their God given “freewill” to enter the Body, it’s just the fact that God “foreknew” those that would!



In the 1Peter 1:20 reference, the point is made clear, as it clearly states that it is Christ Jesus who is “foreordained”, “and is made manifest for you”!



Bearing in mind what we have just read above from Eden onwards, the fact of the "freewill" of all people is again emphasised in one of the OT Statements of Almighty God.The basic principle is recorded in Isa. 45:22-23, and those Words have meaning for all people!

"Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am GOD, there is none else."

Why would God, who took on the form of Christ Jesus to Create, ASK His created people to turn to Him, and have salvation, if He had already fixed it in stone that they were "for heaven or hell"? The simple answer is that He had not! He had left in place for the people that now inhabit planet earth the choice to take Him at His Word, or to reject Him, and choose destruction! This fact shows the importance of "freewill", and its value to our Creator God, now, and in Eternity!!



The question is often asked, what about all those people that have never heard of Jesus The Christ? What about the hidden and unknown Tribes in remote parts of the world? Jesus has been known of only since AD 30, in the sense of the Redeemer; and since then, the onus has been on people to accept Him or reject Him, as the Jews have shown! However; God has been evident in all creation since Creation, and the heart of every individual who has ever lived is known to God Almighty. That means that when the Great Adjudication of the Great White Throne takes place at the end of the Millennial Reign, the condition of the individual heart towards God will be the deciding factor. Those that revere God, will de-facto revere Christ Jesus; as He was in place before the "foundation" (overthrow) of the world! This is substantiated by Romans 1:20; "for the invisible things of Him from the Creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse". Which leaves no person able to excuse themselves!



One of the great myths, and therefore confusions used by false Calvinists teachers, is that of the definition of "works". They say that any work by the individual to seek and find the Truth of Jesus the Christ, is works! What a travesty of interpretation and intellect! They use Eph. 2:8-10 as their foundational Text, and construe it wrongly! In context, these verses clearly state that the "work" refers to Christ's on the Calvary Cross, and that it cannot be added to, or diminished. It is the ultimate "finished work"!



Returning to freewill, Almighty God expects people to use their minds, and put effort into sorting out the Truth from the myriad pagan and false teachings, which requires effort (work) and the use of that great facility, freewill! Christ Himself said when asked what the works of God are; "the works of God are, that you believe in Him who He has sent", (John 6:28-29)!



God Almighty knows the failure of the world's peoples; He above all knows the propensity to failure of us all! As Almighty God, He, because of His Love for us made a way out in His Son (His only begotten), on the Calvary Cross, that whosoever should believe on Him (Jesus the Christ) will be saved, and have eternal life; John 3:16.

He also knows the wiles and ways of Satan, and the simplicity of the human mind. For that reason He made the way easy, not hide bound with complex theology and rules, just simple "faith" in the Crucified Jesus, which we decide!

The "work" is done by Jesus, the "Offer" is made by the Father to the world's people, we decide with our "freewill"!



So we see that “freewill” is crucial in life, to the destination of people after they die, and that all teaching that states otherwise is of the great enemy Satan! We have freewill before we find Christ, also after, which is for Eternal purpose!



In Scripture, there are a number of texts that show that God has pleasure in those that seek after Him; Zeph. 2:3, Dan. 10:12, Heb. 11:6, Acts 17:27. These show that "working" towards knowing God is pleasurable to Him,

and not as some Calvinists say and teach, that it is a "works based activity", which is not allowed in their "rules"!



There is also the implication in that false teaching that people “have no choice”, but that all is "predestined" that Satan had no choice but to rebel against God, and that he had no "freewill"! That is clearly a lie, as the gift of freewill was his also!



There will however still be those that through there own weaknesses, and inability to stand for Truth, sit on the back of one or other of the "Doctrines", instead of the Word of God, The Bible, and have simple trust in Christ Jesus!



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DPMartin

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Floyd

Na, all you are doing is rehashing over and over, the same old same old do to the theologies that are of Catholicism and Calvinism. Theologies are of men and revelation is of God. Therefore the Truth of God is revealed, not speculation derived from logic that is of men.
Both theologies aside, the scriptures are plain that God chooses His People, and it is God who requires faith, the kind where there is expectation (hope) in His Word and deed. Men don’t choose the Way to God, God has chosen the Way to Him that is acceptable to Him. Men have no say in that, nor do men have any say in how a man’s soul is to be saved.

Who chose the Children of Israel? Who chose Noah? Noah didn’t chose to be saved by God and made it so. When the waters were coming, I am sure every soul’s choice was to be delivered from the flood. Who allowed Noah to be in God’s Grace? Abram didn’t come to the Lord God, the Lord God came to Abram and told Abram to pack his stuff and move. The Almighty sits on the Highest Throne, who tells Him who He will hear and who He will not hear?
 

Floyd

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The Elect.


This is a very controversial subject in Christendom. The classical definition is accepted by some as that of John Calvin, the well-known theologian, and one of the important Protestant reformers of the 16th century. In fact there is considerable doubt as to whether Calvin was in fact the father of the classical definition, as it seems to have emerged after his death in AD 1564 under the influence of Theodore Beza. In fact Calvin himself refused to dogmatically conclude what many of his fellows and students readily accepted. But, what Calvin formally refused to confirm was embodied eventually in the Articles of the Synod of Dort (AD 1618-19). This definition holds that “Christ died only for the elect (chosen).” What this means in effect is that only some people are “elected” to be saved, which to the writers does not seem to conform to the whole of Scripture, and especially to the New Testament! It is however ironic that Calvin is now chained to that definition, in what became known as the “Calvin Secondary Form,” but was in fact under the force of Beza! Calvin is however on record as stating before his death that “election is related to the Person and Work of Christ”.



A further error is propagated by many Protestant groups, re. the position in God's Plan of Salvation for Israel. Many groups teach that Israel is displaced by God for ever, and the Church has taken its place. That is not so, and shows a lack of knowledge of the Bible, see: Replacement Theology (Separate study)







We know from the Holy Spirit inspired writings in Scripture, that Christ’s death was for the whole world, (John 3:16), but only for those in the world that will accept the great Sacrifice of Christ’s, not for those that refuse it! What that means in effect, is that the most base sinner, and even apparently necromancers, can be saved and have eternal life, but only while the offer is current, and it will be withdrawn at some stage in the future, some think soon!



Returning to “election”, Calvin’s latter statement chimes true to Scripture, as it states in Luke 23:35, that Jesus was the “chosen”, or "Anointed" of God. A few of the many other ref. are; Matt.16:16, Luke 4:41, Luke 24:26, Acts 4:27 and Acts 10:38, as Messiah or Christ carry the same meaning! The Jews knew (know) the Old Testament well, (albeit the Pharisaic, "Orthodox" Jews of today, through the "filter" of their later "Writings", called by some "Wisdom"). However, in Biblical Judaism, the prophecies of Messiah are numerous. The Messiah, for whom the "Orthodox" Jews are still looking, is the “chosen” one, “the elect of God!” This makes clear that it is Christ who is elect, not people! This interpretation was also held by Dr. Robert Anderson, who spoke on the subject at the AD 1895 Keswick Convention. Those that accept Christ’s sacrifice in truth “by propitiation” are in the Beloved, and are therefore “elect!” This great truth allows for untold numbers to be saved, and for the harvest for God Almighty to be very great! This also shows the great wisdom of our Great God, in the “fall” in Eden being the beginning of a retrieval of so many souls, and also the beginning of the downfall of the great enemy Satan, whose end is yet to be played out, as shown in Revelation!



It is the great rebellion of Satan (using his freewill), at some time in the distant past, that is the originator of the God given Provision of Salvation through the death of Jesus, The Christ, at Calvary! His shed Blood Covers as many people as will receive it (by using their freewill); as per the sacrifice of the Passover Lamb in Egypt, for the children of Israel; for those that would allow themselves to be Covered by the Paschal Lamb (those that didn't, died)!

Satan's perversion of God's Word to Adam, and Eve's "fall" followed by Adam, was as a result of accepting the changed Words of God! This process is still current, and people must be wary of the many "teachers", "preachers", and any person who would change or interpret Scripture in any way which makes the straightforward message of trust in Christ for Eternal Life; hard to understand, by small changes to words!



A common teaching of some Calvinists, is that only God decides who will be "saved"! That any form of "seeking" is useless, because all is determined many "Ages" ago! Some go as far as to say, "that even turning to God, seeking Him, finding Him in Christ, and making the decision to accept Him as Lord and Saviour"; is a form of work; and therefore invalid"! They are usually quite arrogant and aggressive in their statements, and extremely circular in their arguments, that even they become confused, and will contradict themselves on occasions! All of this is a usual sign of Satan's control in their minds as regards the Truth of Christ's Love for the world's peoples! They go as far as to say that if a person "accepts" Jesus as Saviour, their Salvation is invalid, because they "accepted", which they say is work! They also confuse the "Sovereignty" of God, stating that because the individual "accepted", they "usurped" God's Sovereignty; instead of realising that God is Sovereign over all! These are based on the Calvinist Concept of "Limited Election", which is also a mistaken concept, based on "only those favoured" being called! In these Definitions, the extreme Calvinist is using the method of the "Usurper" of the Garden of Eden, whose miss-use of the Words of God, led to the Fall.

A favourite method of persuasion is to quote passages in the New Testament which seem to confirm their case. These are usually taken out of context, or are given a "new context" by the speaker, with their own interpretation of what God meant! Here we must remember Eve in the Garden of Eden!

The following Links give some comments and clarity on this type of teaching:

http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20Call%20of%20God.htm



http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Is%20Our%20Freewill%20Of%20Value%20Or%20Is%20Everything%20Predestined.htm



http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20legitimate%20and%20illigitimate%20works%20teachings.htm



Many Calvinists also believe that they "are the future Israel" of prophecy, which is in direct conflict with God's Word re. Israel!

http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The%20position%20of%20the%20Jews%20in%20Scripture,%20Old%20and%20New%20Testaments.htm



A further element to the controversy of the “elect”, is that there is more than one group of elected peoples. This is where the exhortation by the great Apostle Paul is to be heeded and used (2Tim. 2:15). In this statement, Paul shows that the Bible must be properly “divided”, and that it must be “worked”at! A simple example of that is to understand that which applies to Christians (the true Body of Christ), does not apply to the unfortunates of Rev. 22, who are excluded from the Tree of Life! This extreme example is used only to illustrate the care that is needed in reading and understanding the context. The two main groups called the “elect” in Scripture are the Jews, and Christians (the true Body of Christ). It is essential for understanding to clearly differentiate all cases, to be able to understand what is being said, and to whom! In the case of the Jewish election, these are documented in many O.T. Scriptures, some of which are as follows. Gen.12:2-3, 7, Gen.13:14-17, Gen.15:5-6, 18-21, Gen.17:4-10, 21, Gen. 21:12-13. In Gal. 3:16, the NT also refers to “the promised seed,” that of Eden! The Jewish promised “election”, was at the beginning unconditional, and still is, that will be played out in future events! Conditions were not applied until Mount Sinai, when God wanted His people to perform a task of witness for Him to the surrounding nations, as to Him being the only True God! Their failure and refusal eventually led to God’s Glory leaving the Temple in Jerusalem, and their exile in Babylon! Under Ezra and Nehemiah, God re-established His people, but His “Shekina” did not return to the new Temple. As per the prophecies of Daniel, and other O.T. prophets, Jesus was born, and as the “Christ” (Greek for Hebrew Messiah) and the “chosen” (elect) of God, was offered to the Jews for redemption. As Acts 28:26-27, sadly records, they finally refused Jesus as Christ, and shortly after they were rejected by God (temporarily), and made “lo-ammi” (not my people), and the offer of salvation has been held out to the nations (Gentiles) ever since, Acts 28:28!



This fact of temporary rejection of the Jews, and the offer being made available to the Gentiles, created the potential for the “elect” of the Body of Christ, and as stated is the second grouping of “elect” peoples. For this reason great care must be taken to ascertain which grouping of “elect” peoples are referred to in Scripture passages. An example of this is a much misunderstood passage in Matt. 24:24. The reference there to the “elect” is to the writers clearly referring to “the elect of Israel,” as the Body of Christ has possibly been removed from the earth, and Israel are re-adopted, (Ammi, My people again)!
 

Netchaplain

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Myself, I believe the more significant issue to be that which concerns God's foreknowledge of those who will and will not perish.
Scripture is not clear concerning why God would or would not choose anyone to salvation (if that's true), but there is much clarity concerning His omniscience of all things, which would be prior to creating, for everything He knows is from eternity past bevcuase He has never had to learn or discover anything.

Therefore, everything that is foreknown is predestined according to the omniscience of God in that He already knows the future of all beings and things. The instruction is in understanding God's omniscience, and the encouragement is in the fact that He pre-planned (if yo will) it all for the good of those who will be His.
 

DPMartin

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NetChaplain said:
Myself, I believe the more significant issue to be that which concerns God's foreknowledge of those who will and will not perish.
Scripture is not clear concerning why God would or would not choose anyone to salvation (if that's true), but there is much clarity concerning His omniscience of all things, which would be prior to creating, for everything He knows is from eternity past bevcuase He has never had to learn or discover anything.

Therefore, everything that is foreknown is predestined according to the omniscience of God in that He already knows the future of all beings and things. The instruction is in understanding God's omniscience, and the encouragement is in the fact that He pre-planned (if yo will) it all for the good of those who will be His.

When God created all things in creation why did He speak, then do what He said? Notice God said what was to be or be made and then made what He said, why did He do that? Nothing made is made with out His Word being spoken on it and Him doing it. Not because something in creation did anything. He fulfills His Word to His satisfaction. A civil engineer doesn’t ask for, or use a unqualified material for building bridges just because a material is available to him. He must choose the correct material to accomplish the task at hand. The material doesn’t choose the engineer. A man can do this, and would be considered a fool if he didn’t choose the correct material, but yet you argue that God doesn’t choose, and it’s the will of the man that chooses God, though the will of the flesh has no say in the will of the Holy Spirit. Basically you are saying that man’s will is sovereign, when it comes to salvation.

And it seems you speak of “foreknowledge” like its some kind of mystical thing. Its not mystical that an engineer knows what material will meet satisfaction and will not, therefore the Lord God knows which vessels will hold the water He gives and are satisfactory, or not. The ground that is good for the planting of a certain crop isn’t rocket science or some mystical magic. If you are a farmer you know these things and do accordingly, it has nothing to do with what the ground does, but it does have something to do what the ground is, or is made of, and even then the ground didn’t make itself. Read Rom:9 maybe that will help you understand the NT view on the matter. Abraham was chosen, Isaac was chosen, and Jacob was chosen, and the Children of Israel (Jacob) was chosen, and it hasn’t changed yet.

If man has the "right to choose" or "freewill" which is delusional considering that which is dead and condemned can’t choose. Then it’s the Mercy of God, God’s choice, that restores, not a dead man walking.
And Even if man has the "right to choose" or "freewill" then it would be foolish to think that the Lord God doesn’t have the right to choose. And God’s choice supersedes all other choices and again negates the possibility that there is any other choice but God’s choice.
 

Netchaplain

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DPMartin said:
And it seems you speak of “foreknowledge” like its some kind of mystical thing. Its not mystical that an engineer knows what material will meet satisfaction and will not, therefore the Lord God knows which vessels will hold the water He gives and are satisfactory, or not.
What God revels concerning what He does is no mystery to those who are His, but much of why He does what He does concerning His ways are mystical (Job 9:10; Rom 11:33). This is why I try to attribute greater attention to spiritual growth truths with which Scripture is openly clear.

I learn predestination by the single fact of knowing all that occurs in this life is allowed by Him to transpire, because He foreknows all, i.e. if He wanted it to be different with Adam and Eve's choices, He would have done it another way, but since He knew what they would choose, and allowed it to transpire the way it did, this is how He chose to do it.
 

DPMartin

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NetChaplain said:
I learn predestination by the single fact of knowing all that occurs in this life is allowed by Him to transpire, because He foreknows all, i.e. if He wanted it to be different with Adam and Eve's choices, He would have done it another way, but since He knew what they would choose, and allowed it to transpire the way it did, this is how He chose to do it.
NetChaplan

Don’t get me wrong, I do believe I understand your view on this, but I think there is a warning in that we as Christians place way too much importance on Adam and Eve’s choice. It was ten generations from Adam to Noah and ten generations from Noah to Abraham. Therefore Abraham was chosen long before he came into the world. Does God know what will become of men without the fulfillment of His Word in them? well yea. Does God know what will become of His creation without His Presence in it? Of course what you see and what you don’t see is because of God’s Presence in His creation and Him seeing to it that His Word is fulfilled in His creation.

And that’s not even to mention that it is clear that Jesus the Son of God is the Chosen One, of which the whole of the NT revolves.
 

Netchaplain

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DPMartin said:
NetChaplan

I think there is a warning in that we as Christians place way too much importance on Adam and Eve’s choice.
I also understand your views on this issue, and they may be correct, but I believe their choices were just a pattern for mankind and is the way God desires to teach us through autonomy, which is the most significant attribute given to man to distinguish him from all that is in the universe, and is the most prominent of all our identifications with Him.
 

Floyd

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We cannot dismiss Gen. and Eve and Adam's choice as unimportant!
It is foundational to the full understanding of Scripture, and eventually to God's plan of Salvation; and His defeat of Satan!
Any who seriously try to undermine this Record; are wittingly or un wittingly doing the work of Satan!!!!
Floyd.
 

DPMartin

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Floyd said:
We cannot dismiss Gen. and Eve and Adam's choice as unimportant!
It is foundational to the full understanding of Scripture, and eventually to God's plan of Salvation; and His defeat of Satan!
Any who seriously try to undermine this Record; are wittingly or un wittingly doing the work of Satan!!!!
Floyd.

Floyd
The only thing that might be endangered by the dismissal of Adam and Eve’s choice is the theologies that focus on man's choice. Which in reality distracts from the attention that should be given to God’s Choice. This life in and of the flesh and all of your choices will add up to nothing five minutes after your last moment in the world. But God’s choices last forever. What’s more important ones own choices which promotes ones own judgement of what is good and evil for ones selves? Or God’s choices which are His Judgements that are good because He is Good and all things Good come from God?

All that really matters to the Father is that the Life and Likeness of His Beloved Son our Lord Jesus Christ be fulfilled in us. That is His Choice for us not ours for if it were our choice it would be otherwise in the choosing of our own lives. God’s choice for us is the required focus, not our choices for ourselves.

The Kingdom of God isn’t a democracy, nor anyone who disagrees with God’s choice will survive there. You seem to have the Satan thing backwards. Wasn’t it the serpent that encouraged Adam and Eve to make there own choice? Hence the focus of man’s own choice isn’t of God.
 

Floyd

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DpMartin:
No; I am afraid you have not got the necessary basics of Scripture, re. freewill!
Your argument is based on the Calvinistic approach, which Calvin himself denied.
Of course God wants His will in us, that is without question, but as you will know yourself; "there is rejoicing in heaven at every sinner saved"; that is when they decide for God's salvation in Christ Jesus!!
We must agree to disagree!
Floyd.
 

DPMartin

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It’s been my experience that the lovers of their own freewill are all ways resorting to "that’s Calvinism" when they can’t respond to prove their case for freewill in the face of God’s Choice. They don’t want it to be true that they are not in control of their own destiny. And again they seek credit for themselves for the choices they make. If you may notice in scripture God doses that also, takes credit for the choices He makes.

I can show you again and again and again over and over case after case in scripture of God’s choice in, the people He has relationships with.

In the KJV I don’t find any mention of freewill in the context you speak of it, only in the freewill offering and Artaxerxes, king of kings, decree unto Ezra the priest as to the Israelites may go to Jerusalem of their own free will. No direct reference in the OT on freewill as you speak of it in relation to salvation. In the NT there is no wording "freewill" or free will" what so ever. And yet there is a considerable amount of theology and philosophy on freewill, especially in the secular part of society.


Thanks
 

Floyd

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"God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life".
Floyd.