Behold
Well-Known Member
Apparently.... you've confused some basic science fiction, with 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9.
its not the sun that is going to be taking vengeance... Its the Lion of Judah, Himself.
The Sun, God's tool to change the World
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Apparently.... you've confused some basic science fiction, with 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9.
its not the sun that is going to be taking vengeance... Its the Lion of Judah, Himself.
Hey Keraz, in Revelation 11:6 the two witnesses have the power to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. If the plagues are literal then shouldn’t we expect the two witnesses to cause CMEs to hit the earth also?
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Scientific studies of natural things, is not science fiction.
We know how the sun does emit clouds of superheated Hydrogen at times and we know how badly that can affect the earth.
Remember the Lord did use water the first time He reset our civilization, and Jesus said it will again be as it was in the days of Noah.
But God has Promised to never again use water to punish mankind. Genesis 9:11
The Fourth Bowl, Revelation 15:8-9, is a CME. Note that verse 9 says it is God who has the power to inflict such punishments.
I agree, Revelation 16:9 says God has power over the plagues. But Revelation 11:6 says the two witnesses have power to smite the earth with all plagues as often as they will and in verse 3 it says “I will give power unto my two witnesses”.
If CME is a plague then the two witnesses have the power to smite the earth with a CME. This means people on earth, at that time, would begin to prepare for CMEs after it is discovered that the two witnesses can simply “will” CMEs to hit the earth.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
No, not really. You did not like what you heard so you accused me of something when you won't admit that your doctrine about the sun is wrong.
Rev 18:4-5
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Do you even know what her plagues are, humm? The same plagues of vials in Revelation 16! What you fail to realize is that God is judging HIS UNFAITHFUL CHURCH with the plagues, not the world. In a spiritual sense!!!
Rev 16:8-9
(8) And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
(9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Not physical plague! God did not declare that His people would come out of Babylon the Great (unfaithful church) because its too hot with heat coming from your so-called sun-related CME theory, where people won't repent of their sins?! You do not make any sense! This has nothing to do with physical sun, physical fire, or physical heat. Do you know what the sun and heat do to people, in a spiritual picture?
Isa 49:10
(10) They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
Do you really understand what God is talking about here? How does the heat or sun may smite His people because they refuse to give glory to God or repent of their sins? Think about it! How about the next verses in Revelation 16...
Rev 16:10-11
(10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
(11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
What kingdom is this? The plague upon the seat of the beast where the kingdom became dark and people gnawed their tongues for pain. Will you believe that people will literally gnawed their tongues off because the kingdom was dark? Do you know what is their pains and sores signify? And what deeds that they refuse to repent? See, you can't go around and making claims that plagues are literal events. It does not make sense unless you have spiritual discernment and compare Scripture with Scripture to find out exactly what God talks about here!
TribulationSigns
Active Member
The important thing we should do is to compare Scripture with Scirpture to find out what God talked about His Two Witnesses and the power they will have. For example:
Rev 11:3-5
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
(5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
How will Two Witnesses devoureth men with fire? Will it be a fire coming out of their mouths, literally? Before anyone can speculate, let's find out what God said in Scripture.
Jer 5:14
(14) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.
See? This is HOW the WORD OF GOD coming out of their mouths judges them "as" fire! SYMBOLICALLY! Not literal fire. This faithful word of the witnesses (Christians) of God "is" the Word of God, and thus it is as fire, and the people are as wood being burned by it. For example, all are tried (tested) by fire! So yes, in this sense the two witnesses can put people to death.
So the idea that Two Witnesses will have CME coming out of their mouths or call upon the sun to send CME to burn people is absurd and unbiblical.
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Think about it @Keraz, if the plagues are literal there are too many things that don’t make sense.
For example, perhaps a conversation between the two witnesses might go something like this …
Witness 1 ) good morning, what do you want to do today?
Witness 2 ) I don’t know, how about a CME?
Witness 1 ) sounds good to me, why not make it two or three CMEs, it’s starting to smell since we turned the water to blood last week.
Witness 2 ) if you want we could just use the fire coming out of our mouths to dry up the water turned to blood.
Witness 1 ) yea, but a few CMEs would be faster, besides my lips are getting chapped from all the fire coming out of my mouth and I don’t want to singe the sackcloth again.
For example, perhaps a conversation between the two witnesses might go something like this …
Witness 1 ) good morning, what do you want to do today?
Witness 2 ) I don’t know, how about a CME?
Witness 1 ) sounds good to me, why not make it two or three CMEs, it’s starting to smell since we turned the water to blood last week.
Witness 2 ) if you want we could just use the fire coming out of our mouths to dry up the water turned to blood.
Witness 1 ) yea, but a few CMEs would be faster, besides my lips are getting chapped from all the fire coming out of my mouth and I don’t want to singe the sackcloth again.
With all due respect, all this CME talk is... well, ridiculous... and strikes me as at least a bit humorous. 
But, carry on.
Ah, John's Revelation. It's a great book, of course, like all of God's Word. And, as John says at the outset, those who read it aloud and those who hear (which means far more than just to audibly detect) and those who keep (again, a lot of meaning in that word 'keep') it will be blessed, for the time is near (Revelation 1:3).
But there's all kinds of... ideas... about it that have come about over the centuries since John wrote it, and... Well. Yeah.
Grace and peace to all.
But, carry on. Ah, John's Revelation. It's a great book, of course, like all of God's Word. And, as John says at the outset, those who read it aloud and those who hear (which means far more than just to audibly detect) and those who keep (again, a lot of meaning in that word 'keep') it will be blessed, for the time is near (Revelation 1:3).
But there's all kinds of... ideas... about it that have come about over the centuries since John wrote it, and... Well. Yeah.
Grace and peace to all.
I agree that the CME notion is not certain. But at the same time it is fellow Christians who have put together scenarios based on that hypothesis as being the implementing factor to events forthcoming.With all due respect, all this CME talk is... well, ridiculous... and strikes me as at least a bit humorous.
Ah, John's Revelation. It's a great book, of course, like all of God's Word. And, as John says at the outset, those who read it aloud and those who hear (which means far more than just to audibly detect) and those who keep (again, a lot of meaning in that word 'keep') it will be blessed, for the time is near (Revelation 1:3).
But there's all kinds of... ideas... about it that have come about over the centuries since John wrote it, and... Well. Yeah.
Grace and peace to all.
So when we disagree, instead of calling that others names and degrading accusations, it is better to say that we disagree and explain why, using the bible passages whenever possible.
The nearer we get to the Gog/Magog event which imo sets everything off with the 7 years beginning right after and concluding with Jesus's return - events themselves will settle the disagreements we have at the present time.
Here ya go Keraz, you might like this youtube channel.. CME plus more daily.
https://www.youtube.com/@Suspicious0bservers/videos
Jeremiah 5:14 is certainly symbolic. And don't you think the sword in Jesus's mouth in Revelation19:15 and Revelation 19:21 is symbolic ? The sword being the words of Jesus will speak.
But Revelation 11:5 has differences that make it likely to be literal. Because it says "if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed" - i.e. the death of an individual attacking the two witnesses. So that eliminates the use of a broad effect CME as applying. The fire from the mouth of the two witnesses is against individuals. CME's would be broad based and not pinpointed to only one individual attacker.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
The two witnesses killing attackers in that method will also validate the two witnesses as the ones spoken of in Revelation 11, by them who see it happen in that day if they have any doubt in their mind. There are individuals in Israel who claim to be the two witnesses, like in the You Tube videos I have watched, but unlikely.
<chuckles> Okay, yes, I agree...
Sure.
If this is the perception, it is just that: perception. I agree, but I am not doing that.
Sure.
Hmmm.
Grace and peace to you, Doug.
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I check spaceweather.com frequently. It is very informative and shows how a CME can push our atmosphere aside at the point of impact.
I see the difficulty that the good people here have; in believing God will use an explosion of the sun to fulfil Prophecy, as the result of Isaiah 42:18-20, and Matthew 11:25, where the Lord has blinded people to the truths of Prophecy.
That seems a hard thing to do, but I can understand why He does it. God wants this next event to be a surprise and a shock to all and many will fall away when what they expected and wanted to happen; doesn't.
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Malachi 4:1 The Day comes, burning like a furnace, all the arrogant and evildoers will be as stubble – that Day will burn them up, leaving them neither root nor branch.
Amos 5:18-20 Woe betide those who long for the Day of the Lord. What will that Day mean for you? It will be darkness, not light. It will be as when someone runs from a lion, only to be confronted by a bear, or as when he leans on a wall and is bitten by a snake. The Day of the Lord is indeed darkness, not light. In no way is this about the Return of Jesus.
Darkness caused by the approaching mass of a CME, obscuring the sun.
Zephaniah 1:14-18 The great Day of the Lord is near and coming fast, no runner is so swift as that Day. That Day is a Day of wrath, of anguish and torment, a Day of destruction and devastation, a Day of darkness and cloud, a Day of trumpet blasts and battle cries against fortifications. I shall bring dire distress on people, they will walk like the blind because of their sins against Me. Their blood will be poured out, their dead bodies like dung. Neither their silver or gold will avail to save them on the Day of the Lord’s wrath. By the fire of His jealousy, the whole land will be consumed, for He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the land. This is also the “third swing of the sword” Ezekiel 21:8-16, the final judgement of Judah and cannot be at the Return.
Psalms 37:20 The enemies of the Lord will perish like fuel in a furnace, they will go up in smoke.
Isaiah 9:18-19 Wicked men have been set ablaze, like a fire fed with thorn bushes. They are wrapped in a pall of smoke, the land is scorched by the fury of the Lord and the people are fuel for the fire.
Isaiah 24:19-20 The earth is shattered, it is convulsed and reels wildly. The earth lurches like a drunkard and sways like a watchman’s shelter, because the sins of its inhabitants weigh heavily upon it, and it falls to rise no more.
‘falls, to rise no more’, from the chapter context, this is not complete or permanent, therefore the world recovers from it.
Revelation 6:12-17 I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal. There was a violent earthquake, the sun turned black and the moon red. The starry host [satellites?] fell to the earth, like figs blown off the tree and the sky rolled up like a scroll. All peoples were terrified and hid themselves, calling out: Who can hide us from the One who sits on the Throne and the wrath of the Lamb? For their great Day of vengeance and wrath has come and who can stand? Isaiah 34:4
Isaiah 2:12-22 The Lord has a Day of doom prepared, for all the proud and ungodly peoples. He alone, will be exalted on that Day. Everyone will throw away their idols and their money, they will crawl into hiding places when He comes to strike the world with terror. Ref: REB. Some verses abridged
All these verses listed above match with the Sixth Seal, an event that takes place before all the other Revelation happenings, such as the trumpet and Bowl judgements, the beasts, the fall of mystery Babylon and the rescue of the ‘Woman’. As it can be shown, the first five seal judgements have already been opened, therefore the next prophesied event that we can expect in our world will be the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, – a powerful and terrible judgement, by fire from the sun, that will destroy His enemies. This will make ‘a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the Land’, that is all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates, when enemies commence their attack on Israel. ‘all peoples will be terrified’, this will affect all the world and enable the formation of a One World government, also the gathering of the Christian Israelites into all of the holy Land.
Amos 5:18-20 Woe betide those who long for the Day of the Lord. What will that Day mean for you? It will be darkness, not light. It will be as when someone runs from a lion, only to be confronted by a bear, or as when he leans on a wall and is bitten by a snake. The Day of the Lord is indeed darkness, not light. In no way is this about the Return of Jesus.
Darkness caused by the approaching mass of a CME, obscuring the sun.
Zephaniah 1:14-18 The great Day of the Lord is near and coming fast, no runner is so swift as that Day. That Day is a Day of wrath, of anguish and torment, a Day of destruction and devastation, a Day of darkness and cloud, a Day of trumpet blasts and battle cries against fortifications. I shall bring dire distress on people, they will walk like the blind because of their sins against Me. Their blood will be poured out, their dead bodies like dung. Neither their silver or gold will avail to save them on the Day of the Lord’s wrath. By the fire of His jealousy, the whole land will be consumed, for He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the land. This is also the “third swing of the sword” Ezekiel 21:8-16, the final judgement of Judah and cannot be at the Return.
Psalms 37:20 The enemies of the Lord will perish like fuel in a furnace, they will go up in smoke.
Isaiah 9:18-19 Wicked men have been set ablaze, like a fire fed with thorn bushes. They are wrapped in a pall of smoke, the land is scorched by the fury of the Lord and the people are fuel for the fire.
Isaiah 24:19-20 The earth is shattered, it is convulsed and reels wildly. The earth lurches like a drunkard and sways like a watchman’s shelter, because the sins of its inhabitants weigh heavily upon it, and it falls to rise no more.
‘falls, to rise no more’, from the chapter context, this is not complete or permanent, therefore the world recovers from it.
Revelation 6:12-17 I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal. There was a violent earthquake, the sun turned black and the moon red. The starry host [satellites?] fell to the earth, like figs blown off the tree and the sky rolled up like a scroll. All peoples were terrified and hid themselves, calling out: Who can hide us from the One who sits on the Throne and the wrath of the Lamb? For their great Day of vengeance and wrath has come and who can stand? Isaiah 34:4
Isaiah 2:12-22 The Lord has a Day of doom prepared, for all the proud and ungodly peoples. He alone, will be exalted on that Day. Everyone will throw away their idols and their money, they will crawl into hiding places when He comes to strike the world with terror. Ref: REB. Some verses abridged
All these verses listed above match with the Sixth Seal, an event that takes place before all the other Revelation happenings, such as the trumpet and Bowl judgements, the beasts, the fall of mystery Babylon and the rescue of the ‘Woman’. As it can be shown, the first five seal judgements have already been opened, therefore the next prophesied event that we can expect in our world will be the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, – a powerful and terrible judgement, by fire from the sun, that will destroy His enemies. This will make ‘a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the Land’, that is all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates, when enemies commence their attack on Israel. ‘all peoples will be terrified’, this will affect all the world and enable the formation of a One World government, also the gathering of the Christian Israelites into all of the holy Land.
keras, the Antichrist stops the daily sacrifice of two lambs in the middle of the 7 years.
Christians don't do animal sacrifices. Those were established by the Mt. Sinai covenant. It will be the Jews in the present nation of Israel who will build the temple and do the daily sacrifice.
Christians don't do animal sacrifices. Those were established by the Mt. Sinai covenant. It will be the Jews in the present nation of Israel who will build the temple and do the daily sacrifice.
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Try reading Ezekiel 40 to 46.
There will be sacrifices made again in the new Temple and faithful Christians will do it. As described in Isaiah 56:1-8....their offerings and sacrifices will be acceptable on My Altar.....
God does not change; He wanted His people to make sacrifices and He will require it again.
Jesus is the Lamb of God, and as such the Sacrifice of the Lamb without blemish that all the sacrifices mandated in the Old Testament pointed to. Yes, Christians are to make no sacrifice in light of that, except for offering ourselves as living sacrifices... also in light of Jesus's final sacrifice. As the writer of Hebrews says:
"...when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of His own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, Who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God" (Hebrews 9:11-14).
...and...
"...when Christ came into the world, He said, 'Sacrifices and offerings You have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. "Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of Me in the scroll of the book.’” When He said above, 'You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings' (these are offered according to the law), then He added, 'Behold, I have come to do Your will.' He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:5-10).
And of course in the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no need for sacrifice, as there will be no sin. As the hymnist wrote, Jesus paid it all.
Grace and peace to all.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
God wants His people to make sacrifices and require it again?! After Christ went to the Cross sacrifice ONCE FOR ALL? What Bible do you read this from?
2Co 5:21
(21) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Heb 10:8-10
(8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
(9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
(10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
TribulationSigns
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The animal sacrifices are among the commandments of God; During the millennial period, Israel will be keeping the commandments of God. Therefore, there will be animal sacrifices in the millennial kingdom.
In my view, during the Millennial kingdom they will make atonement sacrifices as commanded by Moses. You argue that atonement sacrifices are not necessary anymore.
To that, I made two arguments. First, as Paul said, it was never possible for atonement sacrifices to take away sins. It wasn't possible then, and so it won't be possible in the future. Therefore, any future atonement sacrifices will not be insulting to the cross or Jesus Christ. Second, while the original purpose of the atonement sacrifices was reconciliation with God, the atonement sacrifices will serve a different purpose in the millennial kingdom.
I do believe that the atonement sacrifices will be offered for atonement. In order to understand this, we need to abandon our erroneous view of the sacrifices. Christians tend to think of the sacrifices in economic terms, which is foreign to Moses. According to the penal-substitution theory of the atonement, if one commits a sin, which is understood as a debt to divine justice, one owes God a lamb, a goat, or a bull until the debt is paid. This model, this interpretation of the sacrifices is not Biblical.
What is the actual purpose of the atonement sacrifice? If one were to offer God a lamb as payment for sins, then it would no longer be called "a sacrifice." When we pay our electric bill, for instance, we are not making an offering to the power company; we are providing money to the power company in exchange for the delivery of electricity. The sacrifice of a lamb is an offering to God to signify contrition and to appeal for reconciliation, not a financial compensation. The Lord, through Moses, gave those living under the original covenant the means whereby the penitent might give expression to righteous sentiments.
The atonement sacrifice was offered to give outward expression to a (supposed) inward attitude toward the situation. The atonement sacrifice speaks to the issue of sin, in a visible way, agreeing with God's opinion of the situation. If a man wants to seek reconciliation with God, he must act as if he agrees with God's opinion on the matter. God doesn't need sacrifices, sometimes he doesn't want then, and he says he hates them. But he is willing to offer reconciliation to a man (or woman) who make an offering in genuine and sincere contrition.
The Lord didn't institute the sacrifices for his own sake, he instituted them for the sake of his people. His people need and want a means to give expression to righteous sentiment. A man doesn't need to offer a lamb to find reconciliation with God; but the man offers the lamb in order to give heart-felt expression to his opinion concerning his sin. He tells God, "I agree with you Lord. What I did was wrong, evil, and deserves your wrath. Please accept my apology and restore me to your favor."
Even Christians, who already know that reconciliation with God came through the blood of Christ, get on their knees and pray for forgiveness when they sin. Some Christians seek a tangible way to give expression to their heart-felt contrition, perhaps confessing sins to a priest, or perhaps giving to charity, or what-have-you. The point is, those who are weak in faith both need and want ritualistic forms of heart-felt attitudes toward God. Mankind invented religion for that purpose. The Lord, through Moses, gave his people certain religious forms, done properly, so that his people might have a tangible way to express righteous sentiments.
You won't be chuckling when it happens and you won't know which way to turn.
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