The Trinity

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ROS777

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Christians, your input please: Here's a question I probably wouldn't have had had I not beensurfing the internet on "Christian" sites. I was good with what I thought before but nowI am a bit confused.I always thought and am almost sure that it is not a salvation issue.Tell me what you think:Does it really matter if we beleive that God is 3 seperate persons in one God, all equalin power and majesty ORIs it okay to beleive that God is one God ( like above ) yet has three seperate roles or offices, all equal in power and majesty although ( like concept above) Christ is half human from a virgin human mother; Father: God.Jesus said if you've seen me you've seen the Father.Isn't it semantics and not a salvation issue anyway; to believe one or the other or even both could be the answer?Thanks in advance for input.
 

HammerStone

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A difficult concept for anyone to grasp including myself. As you know, the word "trinity" itself is not found in the Bible. However, we do have some verses that help us out:Colossians 2:9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.Matthew 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.Given man's poor amount of wisdom when compared with God, I think looking at it from the perspective of offices one the one God is the best way. The Bible affirms it; there is one God (YHVH) and one God alone.John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.The Godhead is God and it includes all three offices. Jesus is the flesh form of our Father born as a human who faced the same trials that we do and beat them all; every last one of them. The Holy Spirit(Ghost) is our spiritual companion that God gave us to let him use us. Then, of course, you have God, YHVH, which, in a nutshell is God; he's pretty much beyond us as far as his state but he gave us the Bible to help out our simple minds.1 John 5:7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
 

ROS777

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A difficult concept for anyone to grasp including myself. As you know, the word "trinity" itself is not found in the Bible. However, we do have some verses that help us out:Colossians 2:9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.Matthew 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.Given man's poor amount of wisdom when compared with God, I think looking at it from the perspective of offices one the one God is the best way. The Bible affirms it; there is one God (YHVH) and one God alone.John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.The Godhead is God and it includes all three offices. Jesus is the flesh form of our Father born as a human who faced the same trials that we do and beat them all; every last one of them. The Holy Spirit(Ghost) is our spiritual companion that God gave us to let him use us. Then, of course, you have God, YHVH, which, in a nutshell is God; he's pretty much beyond us as far as his state but he gave us the Bible to help out our simple minds.1 John 5:7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Thank you SwampFox,And Jesus said, the Father and I are one and If you've seen me you've seen the Father.And the last part of the question is: is this a salvation issue? I don't think so althoughsome people make it one even though Paul says, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ andyou and your house will be saved!
 

HammerStone

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I'd say that it's definitely not a salvation sticking point. I think you can potentially get into the danger area if you say that there are 3 Gods but that's a murky line that I think most any Christian will not cross. I think as long as you understand the basic concept that there is a Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, who make one God, you'll be just fine.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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A difficult concept for anyone to grasp including myself. As you know, the word "trinity" itself is not found in the Bible. However, we do have some verses that help us out:Colossians 2:9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.Matthew 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.Given man's poor amount of wisdom when compared with God, I think looking at it from the perspective of offices one the one God is the best way. The Bible affirms it; there is one God (YHVH) and one God alone.John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.John 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.The Godhead is God and it includes all three offices. Jesus is the flesh form of our Father born as a human who faced the same trials that we do and beat them all; every last one of them. The Holy Spirit(Ghost) is our spiritual companion that God gave us to let him use us. Then, of course, you have God, YHVH, which, in a nutshell is God; he's pretty much beyond us as far as his state but he gave us the Bible to help out our simple minds.1 John 5:7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

In the scriptures certain words from the Greek word Theo (God) appear and relate to that which is divine. These words related to theo are: theios, theiotes , and theotes. These words occur at Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9, and 2 Peter 1:3, 4.

At Acts 17:29 when Paul, was in Athens, he showed that it was illogical for humans to imagine that “the Divine Being (to theios, which is a form of word theios) is like gold or silver or stone.” Many translators here at Acts 17:29 use terms such as “the Godhead,” “the Deity,” or “the divinity” (AV, AS, Dy, ED, JB, RS), but E. J. Goodspeed’s translation says, “the divine nature.” (AT) Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon (p. 628) shows that the phrase to theiʹon was used by ancient Greek writers to mean “the divine Being or Essence, the Deity.” So according to ancient Greek usage, then, this word can be translated by words that indicate divine personality or by terms that indicate divine qualities or attributes and this is true with the other words: theiotes and theotes. So the context and sense of what is stated must guide how such words as theios, theiotes, and theotes are translated.

At Romans 1:20 the Greek word there is theiotes and some translations use words such as, Godhead, or deity, or divinity.
E.J. Godspeed translation translates this Greek word at Romans 1:20 as divine character. Vincent's word studies in the New Testament states that the Greek word theiotes is Godhood not Godhead. Vincent said this Greek word in the context of this scripture signifies the sum total of the divine attributes.

At Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul was speaking of Christ when he was inspired to write: "It is in him that the fullness of the divine quality (form of theotes) dwells bodily." Some translators lean toward attributing personality to the word theotes translating it as Godhead, or Deity. E.J. Godspeeds translation says at this scripture, "It is in him that the fullness of God's qualities lives embodied." Lexicographers Liddell and Scott allow for the meaning of theotes to be divine nature and so does Robinson's Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament allow the meaning divine nature.
It's obvious that those translation that translate theotes as Godhead or Diety at Colossians 2:9 favor a sense of personality and give the idea that God personally dwells in Christ. Translations that translate theotes as divine nature, or divine qualities give the idea that Christ is the very embodiment of the divine qualities, such as wisdom. When these translations translate the Greek word theotes here at Colossians 2:9 as divine nature or divine qualities the context shows that those in the Christian congregation would look to the resurrected Jesus their divinely appointed head, for all their guidance and instruction, as well as blessings, from God, and not to human philosophers and traditionalists. So Jesus has had all the fullness that all Christians need. However it must be noted that this fullness of divine nature or divine qualities was granted to Jesus by his Father(Colossians 1:19), who raised him from the dead and sat him on the right hand of God's majesty and as the reflection of God's glory and the exact representation of his very being. Hebrew 1:1-3; Philippians 2:8-11.

At 2 Peter 1:3, 4 the apostle shows that by virtue of the “precious and very grand promises” extended to faithful anointed Christians by divine power, they “may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.” Elsewhere in the Scriptures Christians are referred to as ‘sharing’ with Christ in his sufferings, in a death like his, and in a resurrection like his to immortality as spirit creatures, becoming joint heirs with him in the heavenly kingdom. (1 Corinthians 15:50-54; Philippians 3:10, 11; 1 Peter 5:1; 2 Peter 1:2-4; Revelation 20:6) So it is evident that the sharing of Christians in “divine nature” is with Christ, and also with their fellow heirs, rather than with God. Nature is generally associated with that which is produced, or is born or grows, it is inappropriate to speak of God as having “nature”; he is without birth or growth, having no beginning. However, he can give divine nature or qualities to others. Psalms 90:1, 2; 93:2; 1 Timothy 1:17.
 

Davy

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Christians, your input please: Here's a question I probably wouldn't have had had I not beensurfing the internet on "Christian" sites. I was good with what I thought before but nowI am a bit confused.I always thought and am almost sure that it is not a salvation issue.Tell me what you think:Does it really matter if we beleive that God is 3 seperate persons in one God, all equalin power and majesty ORIs it okay to beleive that God is one God ( like above ) yet has three seperate roles or offices, all equal in power and majesty although ( like concept above) Christ is half human from a virgin human mother; Father: God.Jesus said if you've seen me you've seen the Father.Isn't it semantics and not a salvation issue anyway; to believe one or the other or even both could be the answer?Thanks in advance for input.

It is... a salvation issue...

1 John 2:22-23
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
KJV

2 John 7
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

KJV

John's point in the above Scriptures is not the fact that Lord Jesus was born flesh through woman like us. It's the fact that The Christ came in the flesh born through woman like us. How so?

In Matthew 16:15-17, Lord Jesus asked Peter who do they say He is. Peter then said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Then Jesus said not by flesh and blood, but The Father in Heaven revealed that to Peter.

That title of "The Christ" is specific to God, as Hebrews 1:3 reveals that Jesus Christ is the "express image of His person" (express image of The Father). The Christ title is a Heavenly office. So when Peter said Jesus is 'The Christ, The Son of God', Peter was pointing to God, and not merely to a flesh born man named Jesus.

Emmanuel is another one of Jesus' titles, per Matthew 1:23 (from "Immanuel" in Isaiah 7). That title Immanuel means 'with us is God'. From Isaiah 9:6 the prophet shows He is The Father, "... the mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

That is the matter Apostle John was pointing to about an antichrist being one who denies... that Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ, The Son of God, Immanuel God with us. To put it simply, God having come in the flesh as Jesus.

So it's one thing to think of Jesus being a human like us, and another to believe that He is God having come in the flesh. Those who reject the idea of Jesus being God, even while He walked this earth, represent the antichrists John was pointing to.

Why is this distinction important to salvation?

Because it is impossible... for anyone like us born in the flesh to have the Power of Eternal Life to forgive our sins, and to promise us Eternal Life. Many have died on a cross, but only Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ, has the Power to remit sins of those who believe by His death on His cross, and His resurrection. And only... God Himself could do that.

This is why in the Book of Hebrews, which has a comparison of Jesus with the angels, it says Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for the purpose of suffering. What that simply means is that only Jesus came in the flesh to die on the cross as God The Son, with the Power to forgive our sins and offer us Eternal Life. None of the angels did that, nor could do that, because ONLY... God can do that. (And it certainly does not mean Lord Jesus was ever created, nor an angel. But His flesh body was made when born through woman, and that's what it's pointing to with that idea of being made a little lower than the angels.)

So was Jesus of Nazareth God on earth in the flesh, or not? There are some who claim to be Christians today that don't believe that, simply because they cannot fathom The Godhead is made up of three Persons, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
 
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Faithbuilders

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There is not three Gods; there is only one God, in three persons! As a said in other posts, that concept can not be understood with the brain, only through the Holy Spirit, by faith, can this be understood!

What does this have to do with salvation! It might have everything to do with it. You can't get saved without having faith in the truth that Jesus IS the Son of God, and that God, His Father, raised Him from the dead!
 

GodsGrace

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Christians, your input please: Here's a question I probably wouldn't have had had I not beensurfing the internet on "Christian" sites. I was good with what I thought before but nowI am a bit confused.I always thought and am almost sure that it is not a salvation issue.Tell me what you think:Does it really matter if we beleive that God is 3 seperate persons in one God, all equalin power and majesty ORIs it okay to beleive that God is one God ( like above ) yet has three seperate roles or offices, all equal in power and majesty although ( like concept above) Christ is half human from a virgin human mother; Father: God.Jesus said if you've seen me you've seen the Father.Isn't it semantics and not a salvation issue anyway; to believe one or the other or even both could be the answer?Thanks in advance for input.
It's not a salvation issue.
Bit some can believe it is, simply because if Jesus is not God, then we would be worshipping a man and this is idolatry.

Christianity believes and teaches that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.

The Trinity is not easy to grasp and I don't believe a merciful God will expect us to fully understand such an Almighty being as Himself.
 
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Davy

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It's not a salvation issue.
Bit some can believe it is, simply because if Jesus is not God, then we would be worshipping a man and this is idolatry.

Christianity believes and teaches that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.

The Trinity is not easy to grasp and I don't believe a merciful God will expect us to fully understand such an Almighty being as Himself.

But AS Christians, we definitely are to understand that Lord Jesus is God, Immanuel (God with us), and not just a flesh born human, nor an angel. Otherwise, our Faith on Him is a fake. So it definitely is... a Salvation issue, and that was what Apostle John was showing.
 

GodsGrace

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But AS Christians, we definitely are to understand that Lord Jesus is God, Immanuel (God with us), and not just a flesh born human, nor an angel. Otherwise, our Faith on Him is a fake. So it definitely is... a Salvation issue, and that was what Apostle John was showing.
Where was Apostle John showing that believing Jesus is God a salvation issue?
 

atpollard

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It is less important to your salvation to understand the TRUTH, than it is essential to reject the lies.

Jesus was not JUST a man (as Muslims and some cults claim) … Jesus was also the Lord our God.
  • Romans 10:9-10 “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”
 

Davy

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Where was Apostle John showing that believing Jesus is God a salvation issue?

When he showed that Jesus is 'The Christ' having come in the flesh. That Christ title is about The Son of God, not just any flesh born man. Thus John was pointing to those who believe Jesus was just a flesh born man only are 'antichrists'.

John showed that here ...

1 John 2:22-23
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
KJV

The unbelieving Jews believe on The Father, and that's all. They do not believe on Jesus as God The Son, but only as a human flesh born man.

Now if someone has to spell it out for you, that you cannot have God's Salvation without believing on The Christ Who came in the flesh as Jesus of Nazareth, then you show doubt on Who Jesus is, and your salvation is in limbo.

Acts 4:10-12
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Whom ye crucified, Whom God raised from the dead, even by Him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

KJV
 

tigger 2

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GodsGrace wrote: "Where was Apostle John showing that believing Jesus is God a salvation issue?"
..............................................................
John never says that. However, the identity of the only true God and of the Christ are said to be necessary.

John quoted Jesus as saying: "And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ." - John 17:3, ASV.
 
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GodsGrace

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When he showed that Jesus is 'The Christ' having come in the flesh. That Christ title is about The Son of God, not just any flesh born man. Thus John was pointing to those who believe Jesus was just a flesh born man only are 'antichrists'.

John showed that here ...

1 John 2:22-23
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
KJV
I believe in the Trinity and I believe Jesus is God.
However, here's the problem that was presented in the O.P. and why I said it is not a salvation issue:

The Christ and Messiah are the same title.
It means the One sent by God...or the Annointed One.

Even JWs state that Jesus is the son of God...of course they don't mean the SON OF GOD, as we understand it.

Because someone cannot grasp the Trnity but they believe in God and follow what they believe to be His rules/laws...
can we say they are lost?

What gives us the right to say anyone is lost?
We can only give an opinion as to whether or not they're Christian...
but only God knows who is saved or not.


The unbelieving Jews believe on The Father, and that's all. They do not believe on Jesus as God The Son, but only as a human flesh born man.

Now if someone has to spell it out for you, that you cannot have God's Salvation without believing on The Christ Who came in the flesh as Jesus of Nazareth, then you show doubt on Who Jesus is, and your salvation is in limbo.

Acts 4:10-12
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Whom ye crucified, Whom God raised from the dead, even by Him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

KJV
Right.
But where does it say in any of your verses that Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Trinity and that this is what we MUST believe to be saved?
 
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bbyrd009

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Christians, your input please: Here's a question I probably wouldn't have had had I not beensurfing the internet on "Christian" sites. I was good with what I thought before but nowI am a bit confused.I always thought and am almost sure that it is not a salvation issue.Tell me what you think:Does it really matter if we beleive that God is 3 seperate persons in one God, all equalin power and majesty ORIs it okay to beleive that God is one God ( like above ) yet has three seperate roles or offices, all equal in power and majesty although ( like concept above) Christ is half human from a virgin human mother; Father: God.Jesus said if you've seen me you've seen the Father.Isn't it semantics and not a salvation issue anyway; to believe one or the other or even both could be the answer?Thanks in advance for input.
"God in three persons" (not in the Bible, anywhere)(when there are no actual persons involved at all) mostly strikes me as a way to illustrate "undefinable," oh and a likely honey trap for religious judgementalists. Fwiw Yah said that we are Elohim, too,
I said "you are Elohim"
so i would contemplate "Trinity" as a mostly cult-of-sol (Catholic) invention, designed to obfuscate
 

GodsGrace

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GodsGrace wrote: "Where was Apostle John showing that believing Jesus is God a salvation issue?"
..............................................................
John never says that. However, the identity of the only true God and of the Christ are said to be necessary.

John quoted Jesus as saying: "And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ." - John 17:3, ASV.
I agree.
I'm responding to the O.P.
I just don't believe our doctrine saves us...
but our belief in God and our entry into the Kingdom of God here on earth by observing what Jesus taught.
 

GodsGrace

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"God in three persons" (not in the Bible, anywhere)(when there are no actual persons involved at all) mostly strikes me as a way to illustrate "undefinable," oh and a likely honey trap for religious judgementalists. Fwiw Yah said that we are Elohim, too,
I said "you are Elohim"
so i would contemplate "Trinity" as a mostly cult-of-sol (Catholic) invention, designed to obfuscate
bb
Do you know the history of the Trinity?
It was by the CC as you've stated...but the original one...the one that was still teaching what the Apostles taught.
They saw Jesus come back to life...
They believed He was divine.
There's no getting around this.

What did Jesus mean in Matthew 28:19 when He told the Apostles to baptize in the name of the FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SPIRIT?

That sounds like 3 of something or other to me...
 

amadeus

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my objection to "Trinity" centers more on the doctrine than the practice, gg; it is used to divide rather than unite
Yes, the 'Trinity versus anything else' has become one of those controversial issues that does a lot harm in spite of who may right... if anyone is! This too I see as part of our test, not as to which doctrine we hold but rather as to how much love/charity we manifest toward anyone is not standing just where we are standing.

Is being right with our doctrine more important than loving even our worst enemies?


Who believes that he is always right in the things of God?
 
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Pierac

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bb
Do you know the history of the Trinity?
It was by the CC as you've stated...but the original one...the one that was still teaching what the Apostles taught.
They saw Jesus come back to life...
They believed He was divine.
There's no getting around this.

What did Jesus mean in Matthew 28:19 when He told the Apostles to baptize in the name of the FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SPIRIT?

That sounds like 3 of something or other to me...

Matthew 28: 19

Baptize them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

The New American Bible says:

"This is perhaps the clearest expression in the New Testament of Trinitarian belief."

In a few seconds you will see how preposterous this statement really is. This verse has absolutely nothing Trinitarian about it. It is about Jesus sending them out to proclaim the gospel to the nations. First, a few definitions according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words:

Baptize - The phrase in Matthew 28: 19, "baptizing them into the name" would indicate that the baptized person was closely bound to, or became property of, the one into whose name he was "baptized."

Name - Represents the authority, character. Expressing attributes. In acknowledgment or confession of.

This verse has nothing to do with water baptizing. With these definitions we can safely paraphrase this verse as follows:

"Go out into the world and introduce or bring them into the knowledge of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"

Which is exactly what they did. The Apostles went out into the Gentile world and brought them the knowledge of who the only God is, who the Messiah is, and about the gifts of the Holy Spirit which they were going to receive. But as you can see, this has nothing to do with the three being one. Human tradition has made this a Trinitarian verse.

There is also a very strong position held by many scholars that this verse was not part of the original text of Matthew’s Gospel, as Eusebius, a third century Christian apologist, quoted the text in a shorter form: "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in my name" rather than the form which now appears in the gospel. One commentator writes,

"There is much probability in the conjecture that it is the original text of the gospel, and that in the second century the longer clause supplanted the shorter ‘baptizing them in my name.’ An insertion of this kind, derived from liturgical use, would have rapidly been adopted by copyist and translators" (The International Critical Commentary, by Willoughby C. Allen Volume 26, pp. 307-308).

This position has strong Biblical support by the fact that the Apostles at no recorded instance baptize using the formula of "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" as Jesus supposedly commanded them to do. They always baptize "In the name of Jesus Christ."

Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Also the parallel passage in Mark 16:15-18 does not mention in any way this trine formula, and the Gospel of Mark is believed to be written before Matthew.

Paul