The Truth, The Whole Truth about Creation

[StanJ]

So you could be wrong in your interpretation, correct?

What interpretation? If you're referring to Genesis, I'm not interpreting it, I'm believing what it does say. You say God would be deceitful by making a universe appear older than it actually is, then make the word day mean something it does not? How convenient. Your opinion of God is rather demeaning.

 

[zeke25]

Really? You have absolutely no idea why scientists (including many Christians) have concluded that the universe is billions of years old? None at all?

Just as I thought. You don't have an answer. I should go back to ridiculing your position as it so justly deserves. If you can come up with even one, and I really only want one, thing you think is a billion or even a million years old, write back. Otherwise, take your horn and blow it somewhere else - maybe the local carnival would be a good place to start.
zeke25

Zeke,

If the sky is clear go out tonight and look into the sky. Look at the stars.

And say to yourself these are all ghosts of suns, long dead before their light came to your eyes.

Then say God you're awesome to allow us to look into the distant past and allow us life so we may see the new heaven and the new earth.

pom2014,

Your statements are confusing. Why not be more direct? I don't see ghosts when I look at the stars at night. I see the light from distant stars that exist even now. What do you consider the "distant past"? And, how long do you think it took for their light to reach us? Possibly you are speaking of the estimates of time given to us by cosmologists. Please, be more direct, because I can tell you are in over your head already.

Zeke25

River Jordan & pom2014,

And while you're at it, maybe you can tell me what you think Isaiah 34:4 and Revelation 6:14 mean?

Is. 34:4, KJV, And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Re. 6:14, KJV, And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Zeke25

 

[pom2014]

The speed of light is not a theory. Its a constant.

The light from the most of the stars in the night sky have traveled for billions of years to reach us. This is fact not theory.

God is awesome by lettings us see this light to use it to navigate by. It is an example that death can be overcome with the help of God.


As for Is 34 and rev 6, both are metaphors of the end of the reign of fallen nations. Is 34 the end of the edomites. Rev 6 the end of the final fallen realms of the day.

When the edomites fell there was no cataclysm of the skies.

 

[zeke25]

The speed of light is not a theory. Its a constant.

The light from the most of the stars in the night sky have traveled for billions of years to reach us. This is fact not theory.

God is awesome by lettings us see this light to use it to navigate by. It is an example that death can be overcome with the help of God.


As for Is 34 and rev 6, both are metaphors of the end of the reign of fallen nations. Is 34 the end of the edomites. Rev 6 the end of the final fallen realms of the day.

When the edomites fell there was no cataclysm of the skies.

pom2014,
The speed of light is not constant at all. 2 Peter 3:4 KJV, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. These scoffers think that everything has always been constant. So do you. When God created the universe, it burst into existence. Light from every source traveled in all directions at a speed unimaginable. Light from the farthest star reached Earth almost instantaneously. Then light began to run down and slow down. One day it will no longer reach us at all. This is a much more believable theory than the cosmologists and other ignorant scientists dream up. You have been programmed into group think, instead of being taught how to think for yourself, instead of listening to the Holy Ghost and seeing that which He has to teach you.

No, it is not a fact that the light from the stars has traveled for billions of years. It is merely speculation. You should not take SCI-FI and apply it to real life. A couple of generations have been infected now with Star Trek & Star Wars, ad infinitum. People are actually believing this stuff. That's why it is called SCI-FI = science fiction. Get it, it is FICTION.

And what in the world do you mean by "death can be overcome with the help of God"? It sounds to me that you are preaching another gospel.

The Big Bang never happened. That is fiction too.

Your understanding of Is 34 and Re 6 is rather limited. So much more is being said here. When the lights go out, the sky will roll up like a scroll. This is how the end will begin for the destruction of this creation. Why do the stars blink out? Because their light no longer will reach us.

Zeke25

 

[StanJ]

The speed of light is not a theory. Its a constant.
The light from the most of the stars in the night sky have traveled for billions of years to reach us. This is fact not theory.
God is awesome by lettings us see this light to use it to navigate by. It is an example that death can be overcome with the help of God.
As for Is 34 and rev 6, both are metaphors of the end of the reign of fallen nations. Is 34 the end of the edomites. Rev 6 the end of the final fallen realms of the day.
When the edomites fell there was no cataclysm of the skies.

That would of course support your POV, but as Genesis teaches us the stars came with there light already there, so started to travel when it was created or came with light already visible to us has not been proven. The bible says it wss already there. What about the Pleiades spoken of in the book of Job? There are so many opinions about how far away it is and how old it is. IF the science is sound, wouldn't they know by now? Why can they only narrow down its age to between 75 -150 million years old and the distance between 120 - 140 parcec and they only know it came into existence within the last 100 million years. IMO, this type of ambiguity does no make for what I would deem to be scientific prowess.
Sadly the term 'theory', has undergone quite a transformation in this type of science. Seems as long as you can support a limited set of observations with some kind of proof, they become theoretically viable and thus factual.
With this kind of leeway, I bet I can prove just about anything I really wanted to.

 

[pom2014]

I never said light speed was a constant. I said it was a provable fact. We can measure it in a lab.

In a vacuum it can travel at 100,000 km per second. We can measure it just like a measuring stick.

The universe is expanding we are leaving our local cluster, measured. The area we're moving through is being sheared by the large and small magellanic clouds. Measured, fact. It'll take some time but we're leaving our galaxy.

Even the pole star changed from the time of ancient Egypt and now. Once it was alpha draconis now its alpha canis minoris. The next polestar will be alpha lyris, the star Vega in the asterim lyra the harp. Provable, measurable. We can see it as well as we can see the world turning.

Its not fiction, its truth.

And in no way does our movement through the universe invalidate God nor his word. It embellished it. Its proof he exists. And you'd be fine with ignoring that proof? To disbelieve your own eyes?

Every one goes on and on, I can't see God so he can't be real. I can't see a proton with my naked eye but I'm made of billions of them. I touch billions more. I inhale them all day long. But I can't see them without assistance.

God have you assistance to know him. To know he's real. He gave his word, himself as sacrifice and the brain to discern him through science.

Blind theism and atheism is still blindness. Its not what God wants from us.

The science on the physical cosmos is measurable and verifiable. It is as real as the hairs on your body and the blood that runs through your veins. Not fiction, not supposition, not lies. Fact.

And now God its giving us the tools to see even more of it. Showing how vast his power is. Just as we did see all the seas at one time. But we then looked and found them, even though they were already there.

Now we have dark matter to explore and it looks like there is more of that than the visible sky even. Like the stars are only street lights in the night, but the night is more vast.

What a great and mighty God we have to make all of this and then share it like a father shares his house and lands. And like the toddler that only knows part of the house until he's old enough to discover the attic or the workroom or the fields outside; so too are we getting old enough to explore more of creation.

Its am awesome time to be alive. Do not limit your gaze. Look around, we are space travelers and God gave us a front row seat to it all. Enjoy it its going to be a very long ride.

The gospel of overcoming death is the gospel of the new testament. It is grace that gives us life eternal, the triumph over death.

We've been given freedom from death if we place faith into it. Again great is God.

 

[StanJ]

If you read post 23 you will see that's exactly what you said.
Observable and verifiable things in the universe are great, no one would discount that. The POINT is not the observable things but the unobserved things that are treated as factual based on man made theories that are never proven. What God did is viewable and there is NO proof it took Him millenia to do it. It is ALL His design, including the slowing down and eventual end of the universe. However time is also God's creation, and He weilds it as He sees fit.

 

[zeke25]

I never said light speed was a constant. I said it was a provable fact. We can measure it in a lab.

In a vacuum it can travel at 100,000 km per second. We can measure it just like a measuring stick.

The universe is expanding we are leaving our local cluster, measured. The area we're moving through is being sheared by the large and small magellanic clouds. Measured, fact. It'll take some time but we're leaving our galaxy.

Even the pole star changed from the time of ancient Egypt and now. Once it was alpha draconis now its alpha canis minoris. The next polestar will be alpha lyris, the star Vega in the asterim lyra the harp. Provable, measurable. We can see it as well as we can see the world turning.

Its not fiction, its truth.

And in no way does our movement through the universe invalidate God nor his word. It embellished it. Its proof he exists. And you'd be fine with ignoring that proof? To disbelieve your own eyes?

Every one goes on and on, I can't see God so he can't be real. I can't see a proton with my naked eye but I'm made of billions of them. I touch billions more. I inhale them all day long. But I can't see them without assistance.

God have you assistance to know him. To know he's real. He gave his word, himself as sacrifice and the brain to discern him through science.

Blind theism and atheism is still blindness. Its not what God wants from us.

The science on the physical cosmos is measurable and verifiable. It is as real as the hairs on your body and the blood that runs through your veins. Not fiction, not supposition, not lies. Fact.

And now God its giving us the tools to see even more of it. Showing how vast his power is. Just as we did see all the seas at one time. But we then looked and found them, even though they were already there.

Now we have dark matter to explore and it looks like there is more of that than the visible sky even. Like the stars are only street lights in the night, but the night is more vast.

What a great and mighty God we have to make all of this and then share it like a father shares his house and lands. And like the toddler that only knows part of the house until he's old enough to discover the attic or the workroom or the fields outside; so too are we getting old enough to explore more of creation.

Its am awesome time to be alive. Do not limit your gaze. Look around, we are space travelers and God gave us a front row seat to it all. Enjoy it its going to be a very long ride.

The gospel of overcoming death is the gospel of the new testament. It is grace that gives us life eternal, the triumph over death.

We've been given freedom from death if we place faith into it. Again great is God.

pom2014,

The problem of your theory and your hero worship of cosmologists and scientists is that you must first trash the Bible in order for it all to work. So, go ahead and worship your idols (wise men), because it is obvious that worshipping the Creator is not enough to satisfy you. You need more to satisfy your flesh and your lusts, so you chase after the wind.

Here is how you trash the Bible. You have no clue of the meaning of "then there was evening and then there was morning, the first day". If you would study your Bible instead of your SCI-FI magazines you would know that this phrase identifies that the days of creation were one revolution of the Earth on its axis, not eons of time. Creating all that your eyes can see, and the eyes of the telescopes, and knowing that there is more beyond yet to be seen, is more awesome knowing and understanding that God created all of this in one day, than your puny theory that it took billions of years. Where is the challenge in billions of years? But you are enticed by billions of years because it gives you comfort at the time of day you have your pillow dreams, it's fun to fill your mind full of these fantasies rather than praying to the God of life.

1 Corinthians 3:19-20 KJV, “19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.”

Zeke25

 

[River Jordan]

So once again we see that for some Christians, science = anti-Christian. Also interestingly is how some think scripture teaches that distant starlight was created en route, whereas others think scripture teaches that the starlight was made to travel extremely fast and then slowed down by God.

Which is it? One has to be wrong.

 

[zeke25]

So once again we see that for some Christians, science = anti-Christian. Also interestingly is how some think scripture teaches that distant starlight was created en route, whereas others think scripture teaches that the starlight was made to travel extremely fast and then slowed down by God.

Which is it? One has to be wrong.

River Jordan,

So, instead of repenting, you try a divisive approach. It's time to examine yourself, to see if you are in the Christian faith or not. You are full pettiness, arrogance, and ignorance. Go worship all the idols you want, but don't expect to be unchallenged when you try to pass those idols on as Christian.

2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that [Yahoshua the] Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

1 Corinthians 1:19-20 KJV, "19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?"

Zeke25

Zeke25

 

[StanJ]

No River, for some Christians, science is NOT regarded as absolute truth in the way God is. There is a big difference. My faith has taught me to trust my God and saviour in ALL things, and my experience has shown me I can't have the same faith in some sciences, or so-called sciences.

 

[zeke25]

Software is really messing up with the copy and paste function.

 

[River Jordan]

So, instead of repenting,

Repenting of what?

you try a divisive approach.

I'm just stating the obvious fact that one of you has to be wrong. It's quite clear to me that both of you think of your interpretative abilities as at least near-infallible, yet in this case at least one of you has to be wrong. That's an obvious and necessary fact. Why does that bother you?

It's time to examine yourself, to see if you are in the Christian faith or not. You are full pettiness, arrogance, and ignorance. Go worship all the idols you want, but don't expect to be unchallenged when you try to pass those idols on as Christian.

*sigh*

I'm always amazed at how quickly and easily some Christians jump right to the "You're not a true Christian" as soon as they encounter disagreement. Black/white thinking coupled with extreme tribalism.....sad.

No River, for some Christians, science is NOT regarded as absolute truth in the way God is.

?????????? Who said it was?

There is a big difference. My faith has taught me to trust my God and saviour in ALL things, and my experience has shown me I can't have the same faith in some sciences, or so-called sciences.

What experience are you referring to?

 

[StanJ]

The fact is River, ALL Christians are imperfect, just as science is, because they are both seen through imperfect eyes. Our goal should be to look at the world through the perfect eyes of God's word. From that perspective, it is much easier and safer to walk in faith. Sadly, reactive responses will come from both sides of the fence, because many people get personally invested in their POV, and their own cognitive dissonance comes into play.

?????????? Who said it was?

What experience are you referring to?

Many have and do. This thread does not exist in a vacuum.

My experiences over 43 years as a Christian.

 

[River Jordan]

The fact is River, ALL Christians are imperfect, just as science is, because they are both seen through imperfect eyes. Our goal should be to look at the world through the perfect eyes of God's word. From that perspective, it is much easier and safer to walk in faith. Sadly, reactive responses will come from both sides of the fence, because many people get personally invested in their POV, and their own cognitive dissonance comes into play.

Yes, "easier and safer"....I see that a lot, and not just in this forum.

Many have and do. This thread does not exist in a vacuum.

Who?

My experiences over 43 years as a Christian.

Like what?

 

[zeke25]

Repenting of what?


I'm just stating the obvious fact that one of you has to be wrong. It's quite clear to me that both of you think of your interpretative abilities as at least near-infallible, yet in this case at least one of you has to be wrong. That's an obvious and necessary fact. Why does that bother you?


*sigh*

I'm always amazed at how quickly and easily some Christians jump right to the "You're not a true Christian" as soon as they encounter disagreement. Black/white thinking coupled with extreme tribalism.....sad.


?????????? Who said it was?


What experience are you referring to?

River Jordan,

You are reading that two different people use the Bible as their reference and that their faith is in that and not in pseudo-science, which is where your faith is.

As far as my judgment call regarding your Christianity, that is my individual assessment. I've given you the Scripture that tells you to examine your faith. Obviously, you have no intention of doing that. That's not my problem, it is yours.

Zeke25

 

[StanJ]

Yes, "easier and safer"....I see that a lot, and not just in this forum.

Fools rush in River

Who?

Does it matter?

Like what?

What are you looking for?

 

[River Jordan]

You are reading that two different people use the Bible as their reference and that their faith is in that and not in pseudo-science, which is where your faith is.

No, I'm pointing out a necessary reality. Regarding the starlight issue, either you or Stan has to be wrong in your interpretation of scripture, even though both of you think yourself near infallible.

As far as my judgment call regarding your Christianity, that is my individual assessment.

Which only matters to you.

I've given you the Scripture that tells you to examine your faith. Obviously, you have no intention of doing that. That's not my problem, it is yours.

My faith is just fine, thank you.

Does it matter?

Yes. You've talked about people who think science is "absolute truth" in the same way as God. I've never seen anyone ever express anything like that. But if you have, I would love to know who actually said that.

What are you looking for?

Your experiences with science.

 

[StanJ]

Yes. You've talked about people who think science is "absolute truth" in the same way as God. I've never seen anyone ever express anything like that. But if you have, I would love to know who actually said that.

Your experiences with science.

Only to address what I thought were your valid concerns, but apparently you just want to argue about anything.

What sciences? Geology, history, cosmology, theology? You're already not listening, so why do you need more info?

 

[zeke25]

No, I'm pointing out a necessary reality. Regarding the starlight issue, either you or Stan has to be wrong in your interpretation of scripture, even though both of you think yourself near infallible.


Which only matters to you.


My faith is just fine, thank you.


Yes. You've talked about people who think science is "absolute truth" in the same way as God. I've never seen anyone ever express anything like that. But if you have, I would love to know who actually said that.


Your experiences with science.

I see no contradiction between that which Stan and I have said. We both believe the Biblical account of creation. I posed a different theory as to how that came about. I did not say it was the gospel, I was merely speculating. No one else has to agree with me on that, it is only speculation and not the written word. But you only read and see that which you want to see, trying to create a conflict where there is none.

So, you don't need to examine yourself. How much time did that take, about a second?

It is the Scriptures that judge you, not me. 1 John 3:10 KJV, “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” I'm not feeling the love right now. But that's okay, by your character I know that you are not my Christian brother.

I also noticed that you are not trying to push your other gospel anymore with so-called facts. So, you have resorted to ridicule. That might be effective in your junior high class, but it doesn't cover much ground here.

Zeke25