The Two Anointed Ones = The Two Witnesses

[Earburner]

If Christians would stop
defining and interpreting the Bible through the book of Revelation, by their human mind,
but instead
define and interpret the book of Revelation through the Bible, by the Mind of Christ, they would immediately discover the reality of fulfilled prophecy, as opposed to that which is fabricated fiction.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[TribulationSigns]

If Christians would stop
defining and interpreting the Bible through the book of Revelation, by their human mind,
but instead
define and interpret the book of Revelation through the Bible, by the Mind of Christ, they would immediately discover the reality of fulfilled prophecy, as opposed to that which is fabricated fiction.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Ahem... Earburner, since you repeatedly appeal to interpreting Revelation “by the Mind of Christ,” let me ask you a direct question:

What exactly is “the Mind of Christ”?

Please define it from Scripture. What does Scripture mean when it says, “But we have the mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:16)?

And more importantly, how do you determine that a particular interpretation came from the Mind of Christ rather than from your own mind?

If two born-again Christians both claim to have the Mind of Christ yet reach opposite interpretations of Revelation, they cannot both be correct simply because each believes the Holy Spirit taught him.

So, tell me, what is the biblical, objective test by which we distinguish “the Mind of Christ” from our own interpretation?

Please answer from Scripture. That should get directly to the heart of our disagreement. Let hear this from you.

 

[LoveYeshua]

i am very late in this thread but who might the 2 witnesses be?

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

I think Elijah has to be one of them.

I read a post quickly that was saying Jesus was one of them but this cannot possibly be

 

[Earburner]

Ahem... Earburner, since you repeatedly appeal to interpreting Revelation “by the Mind of Christ,” let me ask you a direct question:

What exactly is “the Mind of Christ”?

Please define it from Scripture. What does Scripture mean when it says, “But we have the mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:16)?

And more importantly, how do you determine that a particular interpretation came from the Mind of Christ rather than from your own mind?

If two born-again Christians both claim to have the Mind of Christ yet reach opposite interpretations of Revelation, they cannot both be correct simply because each believes the Holy Spirit taught him.

So, tell me, what is the biblical, objective test by which we distinguish “the Mind of Christ” from our own interpretation?

Please answer from Scripture. That should get directly to the heart of our disagreement. Let hear this from you.

KJV-Textus Receptus Greek- 1 Cor. 2:16 τίς γὰρ ἔγνω νοῦν κυρίου ὃς συμβιβάσει αὐτόν ἡμεῖς δὲ νοῦν χριστοῦ ἔχομεν.

Focus: δὲ (but) νοῦν (the mind) χριστοῦ (of Christ) ἔχομεν (we have).

Detail: νοῦν- mind, understanding, intellect (of Christ Himself), meaning in His thoughts, feeling or will, aka Isa. 55:8-9.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Isa. 55:8-9 is one of the many reasons of WHY God has extended/imparted to His Saints the Spirit (mind) of Himself, aka the Holy Spirit, the 3rd Personage of the Godhead, aka the Comforter.

 

[TribulationSigns]

To

KJV-Textus Receptus Greek- 1 Cor. 2:16 τίς γὰρ ἔγνω νοῦν κυρίου ὃς συμβιβάσει αὐτόν ἡμεῖς δὲ νοῦν χριστοῦ ἔχομεν.

Focus: δὲ (but) νοῦν (the mind) χριστοῦ (of Christ) ἔχομεν (we have).

Detail: νοῦν- mind, understanding, intellect (of Christ Himself), meaning in His thoughts, feeling or will, aka Isa. 55:8-9.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Isa. 55:8-9 is one of the many reasons of WHY God has extended/imparted to His Saints the Spirit (mind) of Himself, aka the Holy Spirit, the 3rd Personage of the Godhead, aka the Comforter.

Is that all you do... quoting Scripture, in Greek, and yet not explain how you understand it..."IF" you have a mind of Christ? LOL!

Let me show you how I can do better than this, for your learning.
In the context of 1 Corinthians 2, “the mind of Christ” does NOT mean that a Christian receives an infallible private interpretation of Scripture directly from the Holy Spirit.

Paul writes:

“For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.” — 1 Corinthians 2:16

The key is the surrounding context. Paul contrasts human wisdom with the wisdom of God revealed by the Spirit (1 Cor. 2:6–13). The natural person does not receive the things of the Spirit (v. 14), whereas the spiritual person can receive and understand what God has revealed (vv. 12–15).

So, having the mind of Christ means that believers, through the Holy Spirit, are enabled to receive, understand, and embrace God's revealed truth centered in Christ. It does not mean, “Whatever interpretation comes into my mind is Christ interpreting the Bible for me.” Get it?

That distinction matters because Scripture also commands believers to test claims and interpretations:

1 Thessalonians 5:21: “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”

Acts 17:11: The Bereans were commended because they “searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

1 John 4:1: “Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God.”

Even the Apostle Paul's preaching was examined against Scripture. Therefore, someone cannot settle an interpretive disagreement merely by saying, “The Mind of Christ revealed this to me.”

There is another important point in 1 Corinthians 2:16: Paul says “WE have the mind of Christ,” not your false attitude of “I" possess a private interpretive faculty that makes my conclusions unquestionable.” The Spirit illuminates God's revealed Word; He does not give each Christian a license to assign meanings to passages that cannot be demonstrated from Scripture.

So I would tell you this:

The Mind of Christ is not a substitute for Scripture interpreting Scripture. The Holy Spirit gives believers spiritual understanding of the truth God has revealed in Scripture, and our interpretations must therefore remain accountable to that same Scripture.

That is actually where your argument becomes vulnerable. If “I have the Mind of Christ” becomes the proof that your interpretation is correct, then your claim becomes circular: "How do I know my interpretation is from Christ? Because I have the Mind of Christ. How do I know I'm using the Mind of Christ correctly? Because my interpretation is spiritual."

And that is precisely the test your interpretation must face. Based on the Scriptures I have presented, your claim that Jesus and John the Baptist are the Two Witnesses has not been established from the text.

Therefore, you cannot simply appeal to having the “Mind of Christ” as validation for that interpretation. Having the Mind of Christ does not make our personal conclusions infallible or exempt them from biblical examination.

So, sorry, but repeatedly claiming the “Mind of Christ” does not turn an unsupported interpretation into sound doctrine. Prove the identification of Jesus and John the Baptist as the Two Witnesses from Scripture itself.

Selah!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

God's prophetic words are mostly based upon His own Eternal Spiritual thoughts/language, and not so much that of our own human thoughts and how we understand the words of our own written languages.

That Isaiah passage is speaking of His thinking and ways that are beyond what we can grasp. And he takes that and simplifies it, like a professor would explain the laws of physics in a book written for 7th grade science.
The Bible is a message system to be grapsed by man, simplified. God purposed His Word for our understanding, especially prophecy.
He does not want to confuse us with symbolic abstract meanings that can go off in any direction.
"In general, all conservative Christians employ a literal or normal hermeneutic when interpreting Scripture. This means interpreting words in their plain grammatical-historical sense unless it is clear the author is using figurative language or symbols."
A dragon with seven heads and tens horns is obviously symbolic. Demon locusts coming up out-of the pit should be taken literally. When they sting and the torture the reprobates, they will know its not to be taken symbollically. If you are around when this happens, you can ask them.
The Two witnesses should be taken literally. Fire coming out of their mouths to devour thise who try to attack them? Likely a verbal command and then spontaneous combustion. Do you doubt that Korah and his Tribe were devoured by fire during Moses time? You are going to see some horrifying things, (the wrath of God) that you have never seen.

 

[TribulationSigns]

That Isaiah passage is speaking of His thinking and ways that are beyond what we can grasp. And he takes that and simplifies it, like a professor would explain the laws of physics in a book written for 7th grade science.
The Bible is a message system to be grapsed by man, simplified. God purposed His Word for our understanding, especially prophecy.
He does not want to confuse us with symbolic abstract meanings that can go off in any direction.
"In general, all conservative Christians employ a literal or normal hermeneutic when interpreting Scripture. This means interpreting words in their plain grammatical-historical sense unless it is clear the author is using figurative language or symbols."
A dragon with seven heads and tens horns is obviously symbolic. Demon locusts coming up out-of the pit should be taken literally. When they sting and the torture the reprobates, they will know its not to be taken symbollically. If you are around when this happens, you can ask them.
The Two witnesses should be taken literally. Fire coming out of their mouths to devour thise who try to attack them? Likely a verbal command and then spontaneous combustion. Do you doubt that Korah and his Tribe were devoured by fire during Moses time? You are going to see some horrifying things, (the wrath of God) that you have never seen.

You too, Ronald?! This is YOUR speculation presented as interpretation.

You say the dragon with seven heads and ten horns is symbolic, but the locusts from the bottomless pit must be literal. Then when you come to the Two Witnesses, you insist that the fire from their mouths is somehow literal—perhaps, as you put it, a “verbal command and then spontaneous combustion.” LOL!

Where does Revelation 11 say that? Nowhere. You have supplied the “spontaneous combustion” yourself! Speculation without Scripture support whatsoever! That is a problem with people like you here!

This is exactly why we must compare Scripture with Scripture instead of deciding, “symbolic here, literal there,” according to what fits your false prophetic interpreation system.

Before inventing a physical mechanism for the fire coming from the mouths of the Two Witnesses, search the Scriptures FIRST and see whether God has already used this imagery. And guess what? There is! Read carefully:

Jeremiah 5:14: “Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.”

Was Jeremiah literally breathing flames and setting people on fire? Of course not.

God Himself explains the imagery: “my words in thy mouth” are the fire itself.

That is an obvious biblical parallel to Revelation 11:5:

“And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies.”

The fire proceeds from their mouth because their weapon is their testimony—the Word of God they proclaim. The imagery represents the judicial power of God’s Word against those who oppose His testimony.

Scripture repeatedly uses fire for the power and judgment of God’s Word. Jeremiah also said:

Jeremiah 23:29: “Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD.”

And Christ does not need His faithful witnesses to become your pipe dream of human flamethrowers in order to destroy His enemies. Revelation itself depicts Christ destroying His enemies with something proceeding from His mouth:

Revelation 19:15: “And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations.”

Are we supposed to imagine a literal steel sword sticking out of Christ’s mouth? Of course not! Revelation communicates spiritual realities through prophetic symbols, and Scripture itself helps us understand those symbols.

Like many people before you here, this is the problem with your hermeneutic. You correctly recognize symbolism when you see a seven-headed dragon, but then suddenly demand literalism elsewhere—even to the point of inventing “spontaneous combustion”—when Scripture has already supplied the biblical imagery.

And appealing to Korah does not establish your interpretation. Yes, God literally judged Korah’s company, and Numbers 16:35 records literal fire consuming the 250 men offering incense. But that does not prove that Revelation 11 describes literal flames shooting from human mouths. The question is not whether God can destroy people with literal fire. Of course He can. The question is what John’s prophetic imagery means in its scriptural context. Selah!

So rather than saying, “This part "looks" literal to me,” first ask:

Where has God used this language elsewhere in Scripture?

Jeremiah gives you the answer plainly:

“I will make MY WORDS IN THY MOUTH FIRE.”

That is Scripture interpreting Scripture—not speculation about people spontaneously combusting.

Selah!

 

[Earburner]

To


Is that all you do... quoting Scripture, in Greek, and yet not explain how you understand it..."IF" you have a mind of Christ? LOL!

Let me show you how I can do better than this, for your learning.
In the context of 1 Corinthians 2, “the mind of Christ” does NOT mean that a Christian receives an infallible private interpretation of Scripture directly from the Holy Spirit.

Paul writes:

“For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.” — 1 Corinthians 2:16

The key is the surrounding context. Paul contrasts human wisdom with the wisdom of God revealed by the Spirit (1 Cor. 2:6–13). The natural person does not receive the things of the Spirit (v. 14), whereas the spiritual person can receive and understand what God has revealed (vv. 12–15).

So, having the mind of Christ means that believers, through the Holy Spirit, are enabled to receive, understand, and embrace God's revealed truth centered in Christ. It does not mean, “Whatever interpretation comes into my mind is Christ interpreting the Bible for me.” Get it?

That distinction matters because Scripture also commands believers to test claims and interpretations:

1 Thessalonians 5:21: “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”

Acts 17:11: The Bereans were commended because they “searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

1 John 4:1: “Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God.”

Even the Apostle Paul's preaching was examined against Scripture. Therefore, someone cannot settle an interpretive disagreement merely by saying, “The Mind of Christ revealed this to me.”

There is another important point in 1 Corinthians 2:16: Paul says “WE have the mind of Christ,” not your false attitude of “I" possess a private interpretive faculty that makes my conclusions unquestionable.” The Spirit illuminates God's revealed Word; He does not give each Christian a license to assign meanings to passages that cannot be demonstrated from Scripture.

So I would tell you this:

The Mind of Christ is not a substitute for Scripture interpreting Scripture. The Holy Spirit gives believers spiritual understanding of the truth God has revealed in Scripture, and our interpretations must therefore remain accountable to that same Scripture.

That is actually where your argument becomes vulnerable. If “I have the Mind of Christ” becomes the proof that your interpretation is correct, then your claim becomes circular: "How do I know my interpretation is from Christ? Because I have the Mind of Christ. How do I know I'm using the Mind of Christ correctly? Because my interpretation is spiritual."

And that is precisely the test your interpretation must face. Based on the Scriptures I have presented, your claim that Jesus and John the Baptist are the Two Witnesses has not been established from the text.

Therefore, you cannot simply appeal to having the “Mind of Christ” as validation for that interpretation. Having the Mind of Christ does not make our personal conclusions infallible or exempt them from biblical examination.

So, sorry, but repeatedly claiming the “Mind of Christ” does not turn an unsupported interpretation into sound doctrine. Prove the identification of Jesus and John the Baptist as the Two Witnesses from Scripture itself.

Selah!

You really are a laugh a minute. You think that I didn't know that you would attempt to pummel me with your head knowledge of the scriptures?
Of course I know all of what you have quoted.

However, in all that you do know, you still cannot prove me wrong that John and Jesus were the TWO Witnesses of Rev. 11, as they were prophesied to come, being the "TWO Anointed Ones" in Zech. 3 and 4.

Did you notice anything at all about "the golden oil emptying out of themselves" in Zech. 4:12, and how it was revealed in Rev. 11:6 that the TWO Witnesses have "power to SHUT heaven, [so] that it rain not in the days [1260] of THEIR prophecy".
Hmm... in all of your biblical wisdom, what does both the "oil" and "rain" symbolize?
By "the mind of Christ" within me, I understand it to be the Holy Spirit, as spoken of in John 7:39
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost [had not yet rained on anyone and] was not yet GIVEN [to anyone else]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[TribulationSigns]

You really are a laugh a minute. You think that I didn't know that you would attempt to pummel me with your head knowledge of the scriptures?

Yes, I can laugh because once again you respond to biblical correction by talking about my supposed “head knowledge” rather than demonstrating your interpretation from the text.

Of course I know all of what you have quoted.

Really???

Then you should also understand why those Scriptures create serious problems for your identification of Jesus and John the Baptist as the Two Witnesses.

However, in all that you do know, you still cannot prove me wrong that John and Jesus were the TWO Witnesses of Rev. 11, as they were prophesied to come, being the "TWO Anointed Ones" in Zech. 3 and 4.

That claim has already been challenged repeatedly. The burden is on you to demonstrate that Zechariah 4 and Revelation 11 identify those two witnesses as Jesus and John the Baptist. Repeating the identification does not prove it.

Did you notice anything at all about "the golden oil emptying out of themselves" in Zech. 4:12,

That is a misapplication of Scripture. Yes, Revelation 11 clearly draws upon the imagery of Zechariah 4—the two olive trees and lampstands. I do not dispute that connection.

But Revelation 11 never mentions the “golden oil,” nor does it say that the oil identifies the Two Witnesses as Jesus and John the Baptist.

You are taking one element from Zechariah’s vision and assigning it a meaning, then using that meaning to establish identities that Revelation 11 itself never gives.

So show me the actual biblical chain: Where does Scripture say that the golden oil of Zechariah 4 means Jesus and John the Baptist are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

That is the connection you need to prove—not merely assume.

and how it was revealed in Rev. 11:6 that the TWO Witnesses have "power to SHUT heaven, [so] that it rain not in the days [1260] of THEIR prophecy".
Hmm... in all of your biblical wisdom, what does both the "oil" and "rain" symbolize?

Gladly... if you receive it.

You asked what I understand the “rain” of Revelation 11:6 to signify. Okay...let’s allow Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Deuteronomy 32:2:

“My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew...”

There is our first biblical definition: rain is used figuratively for God's doctrine/Word "FOR" salvation coming down to His people.

Likewise:

Isaiah 55:10–11 compares rain coming down from heaven and accomplishing its purpose with God's Word going forth from His mouth and accomplishing His purpose.

So what does it mean when heaven is shut so that there is no rain?

Scripture answers that too:

Deuteronomy 11:16–17 warns Israel that because of unfaithfulness, God would “shut up the heaven, that there be no rain.”

And Amos gives us the spiritual picture:

Amos 8:11:
“I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD.”

There you have it.

The Two Witnesses having authority to “shut heaven, that it rain not” (Rev. 11:6) signifies God's authority working through His witnesses to bring His Word of judgment upon an unfaithful congregation. The withholding of rain pictures a famine of hearing God's Word so that they cannot find salvation.

And yes, Revelation 11 deliberately recalls Elijah, through whom God literally withheld rain for three years and six months (1 Kings 17:1; Luke 4:25; James 5:17) as an example! But that does NOT make Elijah one of the literal Two Witnesses, any more than the Moses imagery of water becoming blood makes Moses necessarily one of them as some traditional teachings.

These Old Testament prophets provide the spiritual imagery of the authority God gives His witnesses.

So no, Earburner, I don't need to insert the Holy Spirit “raining” into John 7:39—a word that isn't even there—to explain Revelation 11.

Scripture already interprets the rain for us.

And I would also add this:

In Revelation 11, the Two Witnesses represent the faithful witnesses of the New Testament congregation, commissioned with authority to proclaim God's Word throughout the symbolic 1,260 days. I understand this as the period of Gospel testimony while God continues sealing His people (Rev. 7:1–4).

Now compare Revelation 12:

Revelation 12:5–6
“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.”

The woman represents the congregation of God—Israel continuing into the New Testament Church after Christ's ascension. She is pictured in the wilderness, yet God preserves and nourishes her there.

And notice the number: 1,260 days.

That is the SAME symbolic period found in Revelation 11:

Revelation 11:3

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days...”

That is no coincidence. Revelation 11 pictures the Church testifying, while Revelation 12 pictures the Church preserved and nourished during the same symbolic period!

This is the Church age—the days of Gospel testimony, not merely 1,260 literal twenty-four-hour days.

Now look carefully at Revelation 11:6:

“These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”
Notice those words: “in the days of their prophecy.”

The authority belongs to God's faithful witnesses throughout the period of their testimony. Through the authoritative Word entrusted to them, their testimony is unto salvation for those who believe and judgment upon those who reject it. They are pictured with authority to shut heaven, withhold rain, turn waters to blood, and smite the earth with plagues.

Now, Earburner, think carefully about your interpretation.

If these Two Witnesses are literally your vision of Jesus and John the Baptist, show us where Jesus and John together exercised all these functions during the same 1,260 days of their joint prophetic testimony, humm?!

When did Jesus and John together shut heaven so that it did not rain during their prophecy, literally?

When did they together turn waters into blood, literally?

When did they together smite the earth with every plague “as often as they will”, literally?

And when exactly did Jesus and John have a joint 1,260-day ministry fulfilling Revelation 11?

Humm!!!

Simply identifying Jesus and John as the Two Witnesses does not make the details fit. Your interpretation must account for the whole prophecy, not merely selected similarities.

Selah!

And consider Zechariah 14. The Feast of Tabernacles finds its spiritual fulfillment in the New Testament congregation—the faithful Elect who are gathered in Christ and worship the true King, the LORD of hosts.

But what happens to those who refuse to come to the King—those who reject the truth and even oppose God's faithful witnesses?

They receive NO RAIN.

Consider wisely:

Zechariah 14:16–18

“And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up... unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
And if the family of Egypt go not up... that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen...”

There it is again: no rain and plagues upon those under God's judgment.

Now compare that with Revelation 11:6: the Two Witnesses have authority that “it rain not in the days of their prophecy,” and they have authority “to smite the earth with all plagues.”

Compare Scripture with Scripture! Rain withheld. Plagues. Egypt. Judgment.

And what is the great city spiritually called in Revelation 11:8?

“Sodom and Egypt!”

That is precisely why Revelation 11 should be interpreted by comparing Scripture with Scripture—not by forcing Jesus and John the Baptist into the identity of the Two Witnesses.

Selah!

 

[Earburner]

To @TribulationSigns
In your post #289, there is no need for me to reply to all of what you have assembled together, of you proving your point. Though you have thought to build an authoritve point of view, your conclusion about Zech. 14:16-18 reveals that your source of understanding is not all of the Holy Spirit's teaching.

In your selection of many scriptures, you failed to include and understand who it is that shall come as the latter and former rain, as Zech 3:8-10 and Hosea 6:3,10:12 portrays it:
Zech 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.
9 For behold the stone [H68-Headstone] that I have laid Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in ONE DAY [24 hours].
10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
> Key words for its fulfillment: John 1:50.

Hosea 6:3
Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the RAIN [a shower], as the latter [spring rain] and former rain [to teach], unto the earth.
Hosea 10:12
Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and RAIN
[pour His] RIGHTEOUSNESS upon you [aka the desolate]. Dan. 9:27 and Acts 2:17.

It's all about the Gift of Christ's Righteousness through faith.

 

[TribulationSigns]

To @TribulationSigns
In your post #289, there is no need for me to reply to all of what you have assembled together, of you proving your point.

Obviously, it is because you could not answer the following questions in my post:

"If these Two Witnesses are literally your vision of Jesus and John the Baptist, show us where Jesus and John together exercised all these functions during the same 1,260 days of their joint prophetic testimony, humm:

When did Jesus and John together shut heaven so that it did not rain during their prophecy, literally?

When did they together turn waters into blood, literally?

When did they together smite the earth with every plague “as often as they will”, literally?

And when exactly did Jesus and John have a joint 1,260-day ministry fulfilling Revelation 11?

Humm!!!"

Not surprised!

Though you have thought to build an authoritve point of view, your conclusion about Zech. 14:16-18 reveals that your source of understanding is not all of the Holy Spirit's teaching.

Earburner, I am not asking you to accept my interpretation as an authority. I testified from Zechariah 14:16–18 and explained how I understand its fulfillment in Christ. The authority is God’s Word.

If you believe I have misunderstood the passage, show me from Scripture where my reading fails. Saying that my understanding is “not all of the Holy Spirit’s teaching” does not answer the verses I cited. Let us test what each of us says by the Word of God (Acts 17:11).

In your selection of many scriptures, you failed to include and understand who it is that shall come as the latter and former rain, as Zech 3:8-10 portrays it:
8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.

9 For behold the stone [H68-Headstone] that I have laid Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in ONE DAY [24 hours].
10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
> Key words for its fulfillment: John 1:50.

Hosea 6:3
Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the RAIN [a shower], as the latter [spring rain] and former rain [to teach], unto the earth.
Hosea 10:12
Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and RAIN
[pour His] RIGHTEOUSNESS upon you [aka the desolate]. Dan. 9:27 and Acts 2:17.

It's all about the Gift of Christ's Righteousness through faith.

Earburner, how do Hosea’s references to the former and latter rain establish that Jesus and John the Baptist are the Two Witnesses?! You have quoted passages about the Lord and righteousness, but you have not shown HOW they answer the details of Revelation 11. You are still changing the subject from the rain withheld in Revelation 11:6 to rain given in Hosea.

Please answer the questions I asked:

1. If the Two Witnesses are Jesus and John the Baptist, when did they prophesy together for 1,260 days (Rev. 11:3)?
2. When did they together shut heaven so that it did not rain during their prophecy (Rev. 11:6)?
3. When did they together turn waters to blood?
4. When did they together smite the earth with plagues “as often as they will”?

Well, I am waiting for your biblical response to explain this! Quoting more verses about rain or change subjects does not establish the identity you claim. Please address the questions from Revelation 11 itself that you clearly stonewalled in the first place!

 

[Earburner]

Obviously, it is because you could not answer the following questions in my post:

"If these Two Witnesses are literally your vision of Jesus and John the Baptist, show us where Jesus and John together exercised all these functions during the same 1,260 days of their joint prophetic testimony, humm:

When did Jesus and John together shut heaven so that it did not rain during their prophecy, literally?

When did they together turn waters into blood, literally?

When did they together smite the earth with every plague “as often as they will”, literally?

And when exactly did Jesus and John have a joint 1,260-day ministry fulfilling Revelation 11?

Humm!!!"

Not surprised!



Earburner, I am not asking you to accept my interpretation as an authority. I testified from Zechariah 14:16–18 and explained how I understand its fulfillment in Christ. The authority is God’s Word.

If you believe I have misunderstood the passage, show me from Scripture where my reading fails. Saying that my understanding is “not all of the Holy Spirit’s teaching” does not answer the verses I cited. Let us test what each of us says by the Word of God (Acts 17:11).



Earburner, how do Hosea’s references to the former and latter rain establish that Jesus and John the Baptist are the Two Witnesses?! You have quoted passages about the Lord and righteousness, but you have not shown HOW they answer the details of Revelation 11. You are still changing the subject from the rain withheld in Revelation 11:6 to rain given in Hosea.

Please answer the questions I asked:

1. If the Two Witnesses are Jesus and John the Baptist, when did they prophesy together for 1,260 days (Rev. 11:3)?
2. When did they together shut heaven so that it did not rain during their prophecy (Rev. 11:6)?
3. When did they together turn waters to blood?
4. When did they together smite the earth with plagues “as often as they will”?

Well, I am waiting for your biblical response to explain this! Quoting more verses about rain or change subjects does not establish the identity you claim. Please address the questions from Revelation 11 itself that you clearly stonewalled in the first place!

Again you are seeking for the Bible to conform to the words in Rev. 11.
I seek to do the opposite. Let Rev. 11 conform to the words of the Bible.
For example: no one was physically born having the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit could not be permanently GIVEN to any man, until after Jesus was glorified.
So then, the Gift of the Holy Spirit was NOT GIVEN to John and Jesus after birth, because before their birth they were already full of the Holy Spirit. That makes them to be more Anointed than anyone else.

Both John and Jesus had the fulness of the Holy Spirit within them, and though they had the power of God to do what they would be called to do towards men and this earth, they didn't hurl any curses or plagues**.
WHY? Because of John's preaching of repentance, God saw that people WERE REPENTING, and were still looking/waiting for the Promise that was to come, who was Jesus.

Malachi 3:3 Behold, I will send my messenger [John the Baptist] and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord [Jesus], whom ye seek [the Messiah], shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the [New] covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

Malachi 4:5-6
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet [who, according to Jesus, was John the Baptist]  BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord [still coming as of Sept. 2026]:
6 And he [John the Baptist] shall turn [to repentance] the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Therefore, since people DID come to repentance, in the days of John's testimony and Jesus' testimony, God the Father did not smite the earth with a curse through them!
The Prophecy of Mal. 4:5-6 was fulfilled in Luke 1:16.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Do you not recall Jonah 3:1-10?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

**Note: well maybe one curse was hurled. Jesus cursed a Fig tree Mat. 21:19

 

[Earburner]

Obviously, it is because you could not answer the following questions in my post:

"If these Two Witnesses are literally your vision of Jesus and John the Baptist, show us where Jesus and John together exercised all these functions during the same 1,260 days of their joint prophetic testimony, humm:

When did Jesus and John together shut heaven so that it did not rain during their prophecy, literally?

When did they together turn waters into blood, literally?

When did they together smite the earth with every plague “as often as they will”, literally?

And when exactly did Jesus and John have a joint 1,260-day ministry fulfilling Revelation 11?

Humm!!!"

Not surprised!

It's not that I could not answer your questions about the 1260 day Joint ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus with a direct biblical passage, but rather I already have. Please see post #6, 12, 31, 33, 36, 67, 85.

 

[TribulationSigns]

It's not that I could not answer your questions about the 1260 day Joint ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus with a direct biblical passage, but rather I already have. Please see post #6, 12, 31, 33, 36, 67, 85.

Earburner, listing post numbers is not an answer. I have read your posts since this thread started, and NONE of them identifies a biblical account in which Jesus and John the Baptist jointly fulfilled the acts described in Revelation 11:3–6.

Your claim requires you to answer four specific questions:

1. When did Jesus and John prophesy together for 1,260 days? Where does Scripture give that duration for their joint ministry?
2. When did they shut heaven so that no rain fell during their prophecy? Where is that recorded?
3. When did they turn waters to blood? Where is that recorded?
4. When did they strike the earth with plagues “as often as they will”? Where is that recorded?

Revelation 11 describes these acts as belonging to the Two Witnesses during their testimony. It is not enough to cite a passage about John and another passage about Jesus, then assume they jointly performed everything Revelation 11 says.

If you have already answered, quote the Scripture that answers each question and explain how it applies. Repeating “see posts #6, 12, 31, 33, 36, 67, and 85” does not supply the missing biblical account. Until you can show where Jesus and John actually did these things together, you have asserted your identification of the Two Witnesses, but you have not demonstrated it from the text.

Do better.

 

[ewq1938]

I think Elijah has to be one of them.

Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

 

[Earburner]

Do

Earburner, listing post numbers is not an answer. I have read your posts since this thread started, and NONE of them identifies a biblical account in which Jesus and John the Baptist jointly fulfilled the acts described in Revelation 11:3–6.

Your claim requires you to answer four specific questions:

1. When did Jesus and John prophesy together for 1,260 days? Where does Scripture give that duration for their joint ministry?
2. When did they shut heaven so that no rain fell during their prophecy? Where is that recorded?
3. When did they turn waters to blood? Where is that recorded?
4. When did they strike the earth with plagues “as often as they will”? Where is that recorded?

Revelation 11 describes these acts as belonging to the Two Witnesses during their testimony. It is not enough to cite a passage about John and another passage about Jesus, then assume they jointly performed everything Revelation 11 says.

If you have already answered, quote the Scripture that answers each question and explain how it applies. Repeating “see posts #6, 12, 31, 33, 36, 67, and 85, does not supply the missing biblical account. Until you can show where Jesus and John actually did these things together, you have asserted your identification of the Two Witnesses, but you have not demonstrated it from the text.

Do better.

Do Better??
No! You need to listen better!
Not to me, but rather you listening to the Holy Spirit within you.
To help us both in our discussion, could you please list a date or an era in time of when you believe the period of great tribulation began, or shall begin?

Instead of you forcing scripture to describe your Two candidates of Jesus and the Church, to fulfill Rev.11 in the future, let Rev. 11 point out the scriptures that describe the Two most likely candidates, that have come already, being the Two anointed ones, John and Jesus.

Be aware, Isa. 55:8-9 does apply. You are not understanding "God's thoughts and ways" here about what God would've done through John and Jesus, towards a world that that won't repent as opposed to those who DO repent.
Thank God that people did repent during their ministry, the Age of God's Grace has commenced for a period of the figurative 1000 years, which is as long as people continue to repent and have faith in the sacrificial work of Jesus.
It's called God's Grace.

Try Jonah 3:1-10 again, and understand that both John and Jesus had the power to bring on plagues, but they didn't use it because people were REPENTING during the 1260 days of their Joint ministry. John was for 6 months (180 days) and Jesus was for 3.0 years (1080) days, totalling to 1260 days, aka 3.5 years.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No! You need to listen better!
Not to me, but rather you listening to the Holy Spirit within you.

Earburner, please grow up and stop using “listen to the Holy Spirit” as an escape hatch whenever you cannot answer specific biblical questions.

The Holy Spirit within me directs me to the Word He inspired, and according to that Word, I believe your identification of Jesus and John the Baptist as the Two Witnesses is WRONG. Case closed.

The Holy Spirit does not contradict His own Scripture.

That is why I keep asking you to show me from Scripture, rather than merely telling me what the Holy Spirit supposedly "revealed" to you so you can create speculations.

To help us both in our discussion, could you please list a date or an era in time of when you believe the period of great tribulation began, or shall begin?

No. That is a different subject and another distraction from the four questions you STILL have not answered.

What good would debating my Great Tribulation timeline accomplish when the subject presently under examination is your claim that Jesus and John the Baptist are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

Establish the identity and ministry of the Two Witnesses FIRST. Then we can discuss chronology. Selah!

Instead of you forcing scripture to describe your Two candidates of Jesus and the Church,

Wrong again. I am asking YOU to demonstrate YOUR interpretation from Scripture.

You claimed Jesus and John are the Two Witnesses. Therefore YOU need to demonstrate that Jesus and John fulfill what Revelation 11 actually says about them.

And now your latest explanation makes your problem even worse:

John and Jesus had the power to bring on plagues, but they didn't use it because people were REPENTING during the 1260 days of their Joint ministry.

Huh?!

So now your answer is that they DIDN'T do what Revelation 11 describes because they could have done it but chose not to? Seriously? Did God tell you this?

That is not fulfillment. That is an assumption invented to explain the absence of fulfillment! Just WOW!

Revelation 11:6 says:
“These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”

Where does Scripture record Jesus and John fulfilling this together?

You STILL have not answered.

And Jonah 3 does not answer it either. Jonah preached judgment to Nineveh, Nineveh repented, and God withheld the announced destruction. Where does Jonah 3 say that Jesus and John Baptist are therefore the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

Nowhere.

You have simply created another connection that the text itself does not make.

And your 1,260-day calculation? It has the same problem.

You say:

John = 6 months (180 days)
Jesus = 3 years (1,080 days)
Total = 1,260 days

But Revelation 11:3 does not describe two "separate ministries" that we are supposed to add together. You need to read carefully what Scripture clearly says:

“I will give power unto my two witnesses, and THEY shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days...”

THEY shall prophesy 1,260 days.

So show me the Scripture stating that Jesus and John jointly prophesied as God's Two Witnesses for 1,260 days.

You cannot simply take an assumed duration for John's ministry, add it to an assumed duration for Jesus' ministry, and declare, “Voilà! Revelation 11 fulfilled!”

That is not Scripture interpreting Scripture. That is arithmetic being imposed upon Scripture.

So after all of that, my original four questions STILL stand:

1. Where did Jesus and John prophesy together for 1,260 days?
2. Where did they shut heaven so that it did not rain during their prophecy?
3. Where did they turn waters to blood?
4. Where did they smite the earth with plagues “as often as they will”?

You answered NONE of them! Shame!

Instead, you changed the subject to the Great Tribulation, appealed again to “the Holy Spirit,” brought in Jonah, and finally admitted that Jesus and John supposedly didn't actually perform these things because people repented.

That does not rescue your interpretation. It demonstrates the very problem I have been pointing out.

So yes, Earburner, as far as these four questions are concerned, your interpretation remains refuted unless and until you can demonstrate it from Scripture - - that is if you really have the Holy Spirit within YOU, teaching you the truth. I am not impressed what what I have been reading so far!

No more distractions. No more post numbers. No more appeals to what the Holy Spirit supposedly told either one of us.

Show it from the text.

Selah!

@rwb

 

[Earburner]

Earburner, please grow up and stop using “listen to the Holy Spirit” as an escape hatch whenever you cannot answer specific biblical questions.

Lol...Yeah right!! Notice that Jesus spoke it seven times to the seven churches in Rev. Ch. 2 and 3, when He said to each one:
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches:"
Do you hear that?

The Holy Spirit within me directs me to the Word He inspired, and according to that Word, I believe your identification of Jesus and John the Baptist as the Two Witnesses is WRONG. Case closed.

"Case closed" in your mind because YOU have closed the case, being convinced of your OWN convictions.

The Holy Spirit does not contradict His own Scripture.

You demonstrate the classic case of how pharisaical "word christians" operate: Everyone who teaches the word of God by "what the Holy Spirit teaches" through the scriptures, is automatically branded by the self appointed "church scribes" as having a satanic "private interpretation" and is nothing but speculation.

That is why I keep asking you to show me from Scripture, rather than merely telling me what the Holy Spirit supposedly "revealed" to you so you can create speculations.

Yep! That is exactly what the Pharisees and the Sadducees worried about with John and Jesus.
"If they become any more of a pest, 'just kill them".

No. That is a different subject and another distraction from the four questions you STILL have not answered.

I was simply asking for your point of view.
You are a one way street.

What good would debating my Great Tribulation timeline accomplish when the subject presently under examination is your claim that Jesus and John the Baptist are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

I just wanted to know your time line about it, nothing more.

Establish the identity and ministry of the Two Witnesses FIRST. Then we can discuss chronology. Selah!

Did that!! You are not moving forward to understand it at all. Stop protecting your own point of view, and you will "hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches".

Wrong again. I am asking YOU to demonstrate YOUR interpretation from Scripture.

I have done that!! John and Jesus did that also and the Religious leaders didn't like their answers either.

You claimed Jesus and John are the Two Witnesses. Therefore YOU need to demonstrate that Jesus and John fulfill what Revelation 11 actually says about them.

Prophetic scripture is not revealed to the human mind by intensely analyzing every word and syllable of scripture. Again, see 1 Cor. ch. 2 and 1 John 2:27.
Also, please compare Rev. 2:29 with Isa. 55:8-9.

And now your latest explanation makes your problem even worse:



Huh?!

So now your answer is that they DIDN'T do what Revelation 11 describes because they could have done it but chose not to? Seriously? Did God tell you this?

I can tell that you have not thoroughly studied the spirtual depth of all of Mat. Ch. 11. (Mat. 11:25)

That is not fulfillment. That is an assumption invented to explain the absence of fulfillment! Just WOW!

Revelation 11:6 says:
“These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”

Do you know who the "rain" is symbolic of?

Yes! During their time of joint testimony/ministry, they HAD power to initiate plagues.
BUT because people were REPENTING, and coming to Jesus in faith believing, God the Father didn't have to "smite the earth with a curse" through John and Jesus. Malachi 4:5-6.

Where does Scripture record Jesus and John fulfilling this together?

You STILL have not answered.

I have answered. John for 6 mos. And Jesus for 3.0 years. Both were killed by the Roman governmental system of the beast. (4th beast-Dan. 7:7)

And Jonah 3 does not answer it either. Jonah preached judgment to Nineveh, Nineveh repented, and God withheld the announced destruction. Where does Jonah 3 say that Jesus and John Baptist are therefore the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

Nowhere.

Do you hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches today?

You have simply created another connection that the text itself does not make.

And your 1,260-day calculation? It has the same problem.

You say:

John = 6 months (180 days)
Jesus = 3 years (1,080 days)
Total = 1,260 days

But Revelation 11:3 does not describe two "separate ministries" that we are supposed to add together. You need to read carefully what Scripture clearly says:



THEY shall prophesy 1,260 days.

So show me the Scripture stating that Jesus and John jointly prophesied as God's Two Witnesses for 1,260 days.

You cannot simply take an assumed duration for John's ministry, add it to an assumed duration for Jesus' ministry, and declare, “Voilà! Revelation 11 fulfilled!”

That is not Scripture interpreting Scripture. That is arithmetic being imposed upon Scripture.

So after all of that, my original four questions STILL stand:

1. Where did Jesus and John prophesy together for 1,260 days?
2. Where did they shut heaven so that it did not rain during their prophecy?
3. Where did they turn waters to blood?
4. Where did they smite the earth with plagues “as often as they will”?

You answered NONE of them! Shame!

Instead, you changed the subject to the Great Tribulation, appealed again to “the Holy Spirit,” brought in Jonah, and finally admitted that Jesus and John supposedly didn't actually perform these things because people repented.

That does not rescue your interpretation. It demonstrates the very problem I have been pointing out.

So yes, Earburner, as far as these four questions are concerned, your interpretation remains refuted unless and until you can demonstrate it from Scripture - - that is if you really have the Holy Spirit within YOU, teaching you the truth. I am not impressed what what I have been reading so far!

No more distractions. No more post numbers. No more appeals to what the Holy Spirit supposedly told either one of us.

Show it from the text.

Selah!

@rwb

My answers again, to your four questions:
1. In and around Jerusalem for a total period of 1260 days.
It was 6 mos. for John, 3.0 years for Jesus.
2. All over the whole earth, the Holy Spirit of God did not "rain" on anyone. For 1260 days, only John and Jesus had the FULNESS of the Holy Spirit of God Himself. God was NOT communicating through anyone else during that time of 1260 days.
However, AFTER Pentecost it began raining again, but this time it was upon everyone who comes to repentance and believes in the Lord Jesus

Of men born of women, John was the LAST Prophet. Mat. 11:7-15
In these last days (during their joint ministry) God hath spoken to us through His Son. Heb. 1:2.
3. Again, they didn't have to do plagues etc. Because people were Repenting.
4. See my ans. #3.

I am perceiving that you are NOT understanding what Isa. 55:8-9 is saying.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

yes and he will again just before Christ comes back to again prepare the way.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Do you hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches today?

1. In Jerusalem for a total period of 1260 days.
It was 6 mos. for John, 3.0 years for Jesus.
2. All over the whole earth, the Holy Spirit of God did not "rain" on anyone. For 1260 days, only John and Jesus had the FULNESS of the Holy Spirit of God Himself. God was NOT communicating through anyone else during that time of 1260 days.
Of men born of women, John was the LAST Prophet. Mat. 11:7-15
In these last days (during their joint ministry) God hath spoken to us through His Son. Heb. 1:2.
3. Again, they didn't have to do plagues etc.. people were Repenting.
4. See my ans. #3.

I am perceiving that you are NOT understanding what Isa. 55:8-9 is saying.

(Chuckle) After all these posts, you have finally numbered your answers—and unfortunately they demonstrate exactly why I have been challenging your interpretation.

You STILL have not shown that Jesus and John the Baptist fulfilled Revelation 11:3–6.

Let's examine your answers.

1. “In Jerusalem for a total period of 1260 days. It was 6 mos. for John, 3.0 years for Jesus.”​

That does NOT answer my question.

That does NOT answer my question, and it creates an even bigger chronological problem for YOUR flawed interpretation.

Revelation 11:3 says:

“I will give power unto my two witnesses, and THEY shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days...”

It does NOT say Witness #1 prophesies for 180 days, dies, and then Witness #2 continues for another 1,080 days so that we can add their two separate ministries together and call it 1,260 days.

The text says “THEY shall prophesy” for the 1,260 days.

But now continue reading, because Revelation gives us the sequence:

Revelation 11:7

“And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.”

Notice the order:

1,260 days of THEIR testimony → THEY finish their testimony → the beast makes war against THEM → the beast kills THEM.

So explain how John the Baptist fits that sequence.

According to your interpretation, John completed only the first six months and was already beheaded long before your supposed combined 1,260 days were completed. Yet Revelation says the beast attacks and kills the Two Witnesses AFTER “they shall have finished their testimony.”

How could the beast kill John after the 1,260-day testimony was finished if John had already been dead long before your 1,260th day arrived?

That makes no sense.

And Scripture explicitly tells us who killed John:

Matthew 14:10

“And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison.”

John was executed under Herod's authority while Jesus' ministry was still continuing. He was not alive at the end of your supposed combined 1,260 days waiting for the beast of Revelation 11:7 to arise and kill him. Duh!

You cannot solve that problem by adding:

John = 180 days
Jesus = 1,080 days
180 + 1,080 = 1,260

Revelation does not give us two consecutive individual ministries to add together. It describes THEIR testimony, followed by THEIR death after that testimony is finished.

And where does Scripture even state that Jesus' ministry lasted exactly 1,080 days? Chapter and verse, please.

Your arithmetic is being imposed upon Revelation rather than derived from it.

So again:

Where did Jesus AND John jointly prophesy as the Two Witnesses for 1,260 days, finish THEIR testimony, and THEN get killed by the beast as Revelation 11:3–7 describes?

Your interpretation completely breaks the sequence of the prophecy. Very deeply flawed. You made it up. Period!

Selah!

2. “The Holy Spirit of God did not ‘rain’ on anyone... only John and Jesus had the FULNESS of the Holy Spirit... God was NOT communicating through anyone else.”​

Again, where does Scripture say this?

You are asserting that nobody else on earth received communication from God during those 1,260 days.

Really?! Are you ok or something? What did the Word of God say?

What about Zacharias, who was “filled with the Holy Ghost” and prophesied? (Luke 1:67)

What about Elisabeth, who was “filled with the Holy Ghost”? (Luke 1:41)

What about Simeon, upon whom “the Holy Ghost was,” who received revelation from the Holy Ghost? (Luke 2:25–26)

What about Anna the prophetess, who “spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem”? (Luke 2:36–38)

So where did you get the doctrine that during your supposed 1,260-day period “God was NOT communicating through anyone else”?

Certainly not from those Scriptures!

And Matthew 11 does not say, “John was the LAST Prophet.” Jesus says:

“Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist...”
—Matthew 11:11

Then verse 13 says:

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”

That establishes John's unique transitional position; it does not establish your claim that only Jesus and John possessed God's Spirit during a literal 1,260-day period. Crazy assumption!

3. “They didn't have to do plagues etc... people were Repenting.”​

This is probably one of the most stupid interpretation I have ever heard regarding Two Witnesses with your false assumption. Thank you! You have now answered my third question by admitting:

"They DID NOT do it."

Revelation says the Two Witnesses have authority “over waters to turn them to blood.”

I asked where Jesus and John fulfilled that.

Your answer is essentially:

"They didn't."

Then you have not demonstrated fulfillment!

4. “See my answer #3.”​

Exactly.

Again your answer amounts to:

"They didn't do it."

Revelation says:

“...and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.”

I asked where Jesus and John fulfilled this.

You answered that they didn't because people repented.

But where does Revelation 11 say:

“They would have turned the waters to blood and smitten the earth with plagues, but people repented, so these portions of the prophecy were never actually fulfilled”?

It doesn't.

You imported Jonah into Revelation 11 to explain why the fulfillment you claim happened contains events that you admit never happened.

That is precisely the problem.

And quoting Isaiah 55:8–9 does not rescue an interpretation from textual examination:

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.”

Amen! GOD'S thoughts are higher than ours.

Which is exactly why neither YOUR thoughts nor MY thoughts determine what Revelation 11 means.

God's Word does.

Appealing to “God's higher thoughts,” “hear what the Spirit says,” 1 Corinthians 2, or 1 John 2:27 cannot substitute for demonstrating your doctrine from Scripture. Otherwise anybody could defend virtually any interpretation by saying, “You don't understand because the Holy Spirit revealed something deeper to me.”

That is why Scripture gives us an objective safeguard:

“They searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
—Acts 17:11

So after all these posts, here is where your answers actually leave us:

Question #1: Where did Jesus and John together prophesy for 1,260 days?

You gave two separate ministry lengths and added them together.

Question #2: Where did they shut heaven so that it did not rain during their prophecy?

You redefined the rain as nobody else receiving the Holy Spirit and made an unsupported claim that God communicated through nobody else.

Question #3: Where did they turn waters to blood?

Your answer: They didn't.

Question #4: Where did they smite the earth with plagues?

Your answer: They didn't.

That is not fulfillment of Revelation 11:3–6.

You keep saying, “I have answered!”

Yes, you have now given responses.

But giving a response and demonstrating your doctrine from Scripture are two very different things.

You still have not produced the biblical account I originally requested.

So instead of telling me once again that I don't understand Isaiah 55:8–9 or that I need to “hear what the Spirit says,” deal with what the inspired text actually says:

“THEY shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days.”

Show us where Jesus AND John did that. You remain refuted so far with your Jesus and John nonsense!

Selah!