The Two Anointed Ones = The Two Witnesses

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TribulationSigns

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If you would just answer in one sentence WHO the two candlesticks (churches) are in Rev. 11:4, all of this discussion will come to the truth for all of us.

Chuckle. You keep demanding an answer I already explained long ago, while conveniently avoiding my questions about the dead bodies of the Two Witnesses lying exposed in the street for 3½ days, with no one permitted to bury them (Revelation 11:8–9).

The two candlesticks represent the faithful New Testament congregation, empowered by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost to proclaim the Gospel to the nations. They symbolize the corporate witness of Christ’s Church, not your imagined identification of two individuals, Jesus Christ and John the Baptist.

Now, stop dodging the issue and **answer Revelation 11:9! Grow up. **
 

Wick Stick

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Now, I didn't start this thread to debate over the factual evidence of OUR resurrection, but rather to discuss how it is that the two anointed ones in Zech. 4 are indeed the two anointed witnesses, in Rev. 11, being John the Baptist and Jesus our Lord and Savior, who BOTH were the very first people in all the world to HAVE the permanent Indwelling of God's Holy Spirit.
Could we please stay on the topic of this thread?
I don't think that you can make any/all of these prophecies about a single pair of people. The idea of "twain anointed" occurs throughout both testaments. There are several such pairs:

Moses and Joshua
Elijah and Elisha
Zerubbabel and Joshua
John and Jesus

Things have a way of repeating themselves, especially where it comes to prophecy.
 

TribulationSigns

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Both you and @Truth7t7 misunderstand!! One of the two olive branches DIED for TWO churches, aka candlesticks.
Again, in a brief answer, in one sentence who were those two candlesticks (churches).
Rev. 11:4.
Here is a clue: Acts 7
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38 This is he, that was in the church (candlestick) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

You do not make a sense at all. You twisted the Scripture. Period.
 

TribulationSigns

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So then, the MANY OC saints through faith, who had been waiting a LONG time for the Promise and hope of Eternal Life to come, only got resurrected for 1 to 40 days,.....AND THATS IT???

LOL!!!! Wow, you did not read my post well. Didn't you read my quesiton:

"And where does Matthew say these resurrected saints walked around Jerusalem for forty days?"

It is because you wrote in your flawed post, "Or did he literally see resurrected dead bodies WALKING in the street (for 40 days)?" I was response to this with a question, genius.
"Its back into ground for you guys!! See ya in about 2026 years plus."
Jesus is going to tell them that the "thief on the cross" can be in heaven with Him, but the OC saints CAN'T??

Sigh!!!! You don't get it. All the OC Saints by faith are already in heaven, the same faith that the thief had.

Hello....Jesus died for the OC church also, which is one candlestick of the TWO!! Rev. 11:4.

Read carefully.

Revelation 11:3-4
"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

I knew what you are trying to tell me. You claim that these two represent the Old and New Testament Churches. But that obviously cannot be a correct interpretation because these prophecy on the New Testament side of the cross, and thus there cannot be an Old covenant Church at this time. There is only one Church at the time of their prophecy, not two Testament witnesses to whom it is 'given' to prophecy at this time. Nor can it be Biblically validated that these are literally Enoch, Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ as has been alleged.

When we study all the pertinent facts carefully, I believe that we can come to no other conclusion but that the two Candlesticks, Witnesses, Prophets, and Olive trees are the Church. They all fit interchangeably as a sign illustrating God's people. Like a gigantic Biblical picture puzzle, every piece fits perfectly. This is how we know we have come to real truth, as inconsistency is the hallmark of error.

Olive tree = Church (Romans 11)
Candlestick = Church (Revelation 1)
Witnesses = Church (Acts 1)
Prophets = Church (Rev 1)
​
​
I'd say this is pretty conclusive evidence. We've seen clear scripture which supports the candlestick, Olive Tree, Witnesses, and Prophets, are all used in scripture as representations of the Church. We've seen Biblical evidence that God uses the number two, and specifically, two witnesses, to illustrate a confirmation of that which is true. It is the true Church of God that is sent forth with power to witness in truth (as the 12 Apostles were sent out two by two). By contrast, there are no scriptures which say that the olive tree is Moses, or that it is Elijah, or that candlesticks symbolize John the Baptist and Christ or the two covenants. That fact alone means that such personal interpretations are purely speculation like yours. In other words, it is not something which is actually declared, or which stands upon solid Scripture.

The overview of verse four is that God gave power to these two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days in mourning. This is a symbolic picture of the indivisible Church as it has been given the power to testify for this length of time. Moreover, so that there is no confusion about these being literally two men, God also enlightens us that these are the two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And that word standing is again the Greek word [histemi] illustrating they are able to stand with God by the support of Christ. They 'stand' before God and give assent to His will, His Word, and His purpose, because they are made righteous in Christ. We have our consistent and Biblical understanding of this imagery. These witnesses are a representation of God's Church, and specifically in this context, God's 'true Church' not the external covenant Church. They are those who are 'standing before the God of the earth,' importing that they were strengthened in Christ, faithful messengers who adhere to His cause and testimonies.

Selah.

Now for a third time, stop dodging the issue and **answer Revelation 11:9! Grow up. **
 

Truth7t7

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Tell that to Earburner. I was responding to his errors. Read careful next time.
"You" falsely identify those saints that came out of their Graves as "Resurrected" as documented below, your claim once again is "False", they were raised from the dead just as Lazarus and Tabitha were, the resurrection of all that have lived takes place on "The Last Day" just as Martha stated that you've posted, this is a future event unfulfilled

WHERE does Matthew identify these resurrected saints
WHERE does Matthew identify these resurrected saints
WHERE does Matthew identify these resurrected saints


Tribulationsigns Quote Below Post #354


Matthew 27:52–53 says:

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Notice what Scripture actually says!

  1. The graves were opened.
  2. Many bodies of the saints arose.
  3. They came out of their graves after Christ's resurrection.
  4. They entered the holy city and appeared to many.
WHERE does Matthew identify these resurrected saints as Jesus Christ and John the Baptist?

NOWHERE!
 

Truth7t7

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Olive tree = Church (Romans 11)​
Candlestick = Church (Revelation 1)
Witnesses = Church (Acts 1)​
Prophets = Church (Rev 1)​
Your claim above in bold red are "False"

You've been shown several times that the interpretation for Revelation 11:3-4 is clearly given in Zechariah 4:11-14, these are parallel teachings, scripture interprets itself

Olive Trees, Olive Branches = The Two Anointed Ones, Who Are Described In Revelation Chapter 11 As Having Literal Bodies That Die, And These Dead Bodies Are Raised From The Dead Before A Literal World Watching

(These Are The Two Annointed Ones) = (The Two Witnesses) = (Two Prophets) Literal, Physical, And Upon This Earth, Rev 11:10


Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 11:3-4 & 10KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
 
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Earburner

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Your claim above in bold red are "False"

You've been shown several times that the interpretation for Revelation 11:3-4 is clearly given in Zechariah 4:11-14, these are parallel teachings, scripture interprets itself

Olive Trees, Olive Branches = The Two Anointed Ones, Who Are Described In Revelation Chapter 11 As Having Literal Bodies That Die, And These Dead Bodies Are Raised From The Dead Before A Literal World Watching

(These Are The Two Annointed Ones) = (The Two Witnesses) = (Two Prophets) Literal, Physical, And Upon This Earth, Rev 11:10


Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 11:3-4 & 10KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Your word comparison is coming up zero.
Who are the TWO prophets? I scripturally named them for you! John the Baptist and Jesus.
Back to Rev. 11:4. Who are the TWO candlesticks? For that, I also scripturally named them for you. Israel, the OC church, and today Jesus' NC church
(Reference Rom. 7:37-38 for
Jesus as one of the two prophets-witnesses, and Israel as one of the two candlesticks-
churches
).

So then, one more time: in Rev. 11:4, who are the Two candlesticks (churches)?

The Two Olive branches are not candlesticks.
Did you happen to notice the origin of the golden oil? You know, the "oil" that Jesus talked about in his parable of the Ten Virgins.

The Two Olive branches are quite literally TWO PEOPLE.
Zech. 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes  EMPTY the golden oil out of themselves?

YOUR explanation of it has turned it all into an amalgamation of religious theory. You didn't conclude with anything by the Lord's Spirit.
So then, what of the "two anointed ones"? Has that been fulfilled? Or are you STILL waiting for it to be fulfilled in some distant future by two unknowns??
 
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TribulationSigns

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"You" falsely identify those saints that came out of their Graves as "Resurrected" as documented below, your claim once again is "False", they were raised from the dead just as Lazarus and Tabitha were, the resurrection of all that have lived takes place on "The Last Day" just as Martha stated that you've posted, this is a future event unfulfilled

WHERE does Matthew identify these resurrected saints
WHERE does Matthew identify these resurrected saints
WHERE does Matthew identify these resurrected saints


Tribulationsigns Quote Below Post #354


Matthew 27:52–53 says:

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Notice what Scripture actually says!

  1. The graves were opened.
  2. Many bodies of the saints arose.
  3. They came out of their graves after Christ's resurrection.
  4. They entered the holy city and appeared to many.
WHERE does Matthew identify these resurrected saints as Jesus Christ and John the Baptist?

NOWHERE!

I think you got really confused with the conversation between me and Earburner. I was taking his sentence in his post:

"Or did he literally see resurrected dead bodies WALKING in the street (for 40 days)?"

I was being sarcastic with him for suggesting that I teach about "resurrected dead bodies" that wanders the city for 40 days, which I don't. I do not believe this was the "resurrected" of the actual Old Testament Saints at that time. So you need to read our posts carefully and get the fact into your thick skull first. Selah!

Now I have you here (again) so I will going to ask you what does this verses talks about:

Matthew 27:52–53
"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
  1. When did Christ resurrect after his death?
  2. When did the bodies of the Saints that slept (dead) arose?
  3. Why did they came out of the grave and went into the holy City and appeared unto many?
Selah!
 

ewq1938

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Those coming out of the Graves and walking through Jerusalem weren't Resurrected as you f!lsely claim, they (Were Raised From The Dead)

They were resurrected, just back to mortality rather than to immortality.
 

TribulationSigns

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Those coming out of the Graves and walking through Jerusalem weren't Resurrected as you f!lsely claim

I agreed and I never taught it! So why did you make false accusation like that? Geez!

they (Were Raised From The Dead) just as Lazarus and Tabitha were, and the very verses you post supports this fact that the resurrection takes place on the future "Last Day"

Wrong on both counts.

Read the verse carefully:

Matthew 27:52–53
"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

It says, "bodies of the saints." It did NOT say Saints. It did NOT say the souls. It says the BODIES.

Read the context again:

Matthew 27:50-53
  • "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
  • And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
  • And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
  • And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
Thus, the Instant we read here that Christ died, the veil was torn from top to bottom and many people see this miracle of graves opening and bodies resurrected. These are not the glorified bodies of the saints, as glorified bodies do not appear as normal human bodies. This was obviously done as another sign that Christ was the resurrection and the Life, just as when He raised Lazarus.

Allow me to explain... Saints are not in the ground. They are not in their earthly bodies. Worms are in those bodies. Those bodies are but a pile of dust, okay? So, if those saints were saved (which they were), then they were already absent from the bodies that were revealed as coming out of the earthly graves, and were present with the Lord. When Moses spoke with Christ in the garden, He wasn't in a body, He was in His glorified body. Remember, Christ having been slain from the foundation of the world.

What we really are clearly told here, is that the bodies "of" the saints came out of the grave after His resurrection, and appeared unto many. Not the souls of the saints, or the saints, but the bodies of the saints. They are not the "resurrected" bodies. These "bodies" [soma] came out of the grave after His resurrection and went into the Holy city and appeared unto many as a sign. By the normal use of grammatical expression, we would understand bodies coming out of the grave (on Earth) and appearing unto many, as referring to things happening on Earth. It doesn't say nor imply that dead bodies went into heaven and appeared unto Spirits, or to God in Heaven. There is no reason to "read into this text" that they went into heaven and appeared unto many spirits there, but ample reason that they should appear unto men on earth as a sign, and those men TESTIFIED of this. "People" of the city saw them.

Please understand this. It is for "God's purposes" it was called that here. And that is how the testimony of Jerusalem would be recorded that we understand the deeper spiritual meaning of bodies rising out of the grave after Christ's resurrection and going into it. Since Jerusalem is "called" the Holy City. The Building is "called" the Holy Temple. The nation "called Israel, the Holy nation. This is done in scripture specifically because God is "signifying" by this, the deeper Spiritual truth. Namely, the actual resurrection of the saints from "Spiritual death" unto New Jerusalem, manifested in this bodily resurrection from physical death and these bodies going into earthly Jerusalem. Selah!

Vis-à-vis, the resurrection of Lazarus spiritually, is manifested to us in the resurrection of Lazarus physically. The healing of people spiritually, is manifested to us by the healing of people physically. The Poisoning of men spiritually, is manifested to us by the poisoning of men physically. The feeding of the hungry spiritually, is manifested to us by the feeding of the hungry physically. The list of such miraculous phenomenon goes on and on, get it? And the point of "ALL" of them is some spiritual truth that transcends these physical miracles on earth. So even as physical healing really has nothing to do with true salvation, so bodies of Saints' corpses leaving the grave and appearing to many in the Holy City of Jerusalem, has nothing to do with spiritual resurrection. But it is a "picture" or snapshot of this true Resurrection for all to consider. And that's why it's in the Bible.

I know that some people will ask me what happened to the bodies of the aints after appeared to many in Jerusalem where people "saw" them. Again, God didn't tell us, so I guess its not important then. It's beside the point, which of course many are missing. We could ask, what happened to the ass that saw the messenger of God standing in the way, and fell down and spoke to Balaam? Well, I'd say it's beside the point what happened to it! The point is, that was a miraculous manifestation, a miracle or sign to illustrate some spiritual truth. That is it! Not to demonstrate that all asses can talk. Likewise, the saints bodes had obviously had long since decayed and rotted away. Thus for any body to come out of the grave, it had to be reconstituted miraculously for a purpose! It wasn't the saints that rose from that corpse, as they weren't dead, nor in the grave. The bodies of the Saints remained long enough to appear unto many in the Holy City as a miracle. But the miracle is over! Seems like God wanted us to know that. Ergo, what happens to a miraculous manifestation afterward is immaterial.

And... no, the bodies of the Saints will not be "resurrected" on the Last Day as you believe, it already too place at the Cross.

Selah!
 

Truth7t7

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John the Baptist and Jesus. In all the world and for all time, they the only two who HAD the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, before their physical birth.
OK same drum being beat, Jesus presently sits at the right hand of the Father and he's not vacating the throne to come back to this earth for 1260 days playing the role of one of the (Two Witnesses) Revelation Chapter 11 is "Future" unfulfilled
 

Truth7t7

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Your word comparison is coming up zero. Who are the TWO prophets? I scripturally named them for you!
Back to Rev. 11:4. Who are the TWO candlesticks? For that, I also scripturally named them for you.

So, one more time: in Rev. 11:4, who are the Two candlesticks (churches)?

The Two Olive branches are not candlesticks.
Did you happen to notice the origin of the golden oil? You know, the "oil" that Jesus talked about in his parable of the Ten Virgins.

The Two Olive branches are quite literally TWO PEOPLE.
Zech. 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes  EMPTY the golden oil out of themselves?

YOUR explanation of it has turned it all into an amalgamation of religious theory. You didn't conclude with anything by the Lord's Spirit.
So then, what of the "two anointed ones"? Has that been fulfilled? Or are you STILL waiting for it to be fulfilled in some distant future by two unknowns??
Back to your claim of John and Jesus being fulfillment of Revelation 11:3-4, I have answered this several times, Revelation Chapter 11 is "Future" unfulfilled

It appears your "Preterist" in your views regarding eschatology, this being just one example
 

Truth7t7

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I do not believe this was the "resurrected" of the actual Old Testament Saints at that time. So you need to read our posts carefully and get the fact into your thick skull first.
"Stop the direct personal attacks", Christians are upon a higher calling don't ya think?
 

Truth7t7

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Now I have you here (again) so I will going to ask you what does this verses talks about:

Matthew 27:52–53
"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
  1. When did Christ resurrect after his death?
I believe the scripture teaches 3 days, possibly I could have missed the exact year, month, day, minute, or second?
  1. When did the bodies of the Saints that slept (dead) arose?
After the Lord's resurrection, if you have the exact year, month, day, hour, minute; or second, I'm all ears?

P.S. "Arose" should be "Rise"?
  1. Why did they came out of the grave and went into the holy City and appeared unto many?
As a testimony to the living, if you have another explanation I'm all ears
 
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Truth7t7

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They were resurrected, just back to mortality rather than to immortality.
Your Claim Is "False"

The word (resurrected or resurrection) is reserved in the new testament for a specific time and the resurrection takes place on (The Last Day)

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Those that came out of their Graves after the resurrection of Jesus Christ (The First Fruit) they were (Raised From The Dead) just as Lazarus and Tabitha were
 
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Earburner

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I think you got really confused with the conversation between me and Earburner. I was taking his sentence in his post:

"Or did he literally see resurrected dead bodies WALKING in the street (for 40 days)?"

I was being sarcastic with him for suggesting that I teach about "resurrected dead bodies" that wanders the city for 40 days, which I don't. I do not believe this was the "resurrected" of the actual Old Testament Saints at that time. So you need to read our posts carefully and get the fact into your thick skull first. Selah!

Now I have you here (again) so I will going to ask you what does this verses talks about:

Matthew 27:52–53
"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
  1. When did Christ resurrect after his death?
  2. When did the bodies of the Saints that slept (dead) arose?
  3. Why did they came out of the grave and went into the holy City and appeared unto many?
Selah!
Are you suggesting that the literal account of the centurion, and those with him, was manipulated??
Jesus died mortally but He never died spiritually. Therefore, He who is the Resurrection Himself, DID NOT NEED to wait 3 days FOR HIS OWN resurrection, so that the OC saints could be resurrected immediately after Jesus' mortal death!!
Mat. 27:50-54
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went [walking] into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus [while dieing on the cross], saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

No one can BURY a person who IS Himself the reality of Eternal Life!!
 
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TribulationSigns

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Are you suggesting that the literal account of the centurion, and those with him, was manipulated??
Jesus died mortally but He never died spiritually. Therefore, He who is the Resurrection Himself, DID NOT NEED to wait 3 days FOR HIS OWN resurrection, so that the OC saints could be resurrected immediately after Jesus' mortal death!!
Mat. 27:50-54
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went [walking] into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus [while dieing on the cross], saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

No one can BURY a person who IS Himself the reality of Eternal Life!!

(Chuckle). Clearly you did not check with your Bible carefully. You denied that Christ need to wait 3 days for his resurrection. Guess what, Jesus said you are wrong. Here is what He, Himself, said through Mark and Paul:

“the Son of man must be killed, and after three days rise again.”
— Mark 8:31

“he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures”
— 1 Corinthians 15:4

Or how about this:

“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
— John 2:19

John immediately explains:

“he spake of the temple of his body.”
— John 2:21

The body is specifically in view. Selah!

So Christ's "spirit remaining alive" is NOT the same thing as His bodily resurrection already occurring. You are mixing two different concepts.

His body was dead in the tomb.

His resurrection was the raising of His dead body.

You clearly twisted everything in Scripture and ignore others to fit your flawed doctrine. Do better with your researching with Scripture carefully next time. :laughing: