The Two Beasts of Revelation

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

There is Bible evidence, it's just that your eyes are still closed, and no doubt because of following men's traditions.

Before Satan Rebelled:
Ezekiel 28 -- God originally created Satan perfect in his ways, and he served God, and Satan was the "anointed cherub that covereth", which means to guard The Mercy Seat, and he was at God's Altar serving. This was when Satan had no sin.

After Satan Rebelled:
Genesis 3 -- Satan appears in God's Garden of Eden as "that old serpent", already in his role as adversary against God, meaning, he had ALREADY rebelled. Also, God had warned Adam and Even in His Eden about sin and disobedience that would bring death. Hebrews 2:14 tells us Satan was given the power of death; that could only happen after... he had rebelled, which strongly reveals that by the time of Adam and Eve, Satan's sin that caused death began with his fall from heaven, yet before death and sin was assigned to Adam and Eve for disobeying God. This is why 1 John 3:8 says that he that commits sin is of the devil, because the devil sinned from the beginning.

That is a very simple matter to understand based on the Scripture evidence. The only reason why anyone would reject what those Scripture evidences show is because they instead would rather follow a tradition of men.

So actually, it is YOU that is following what 'man' says, and not what God's Word reveals.

My eyes are not closed. I just will not agree to add to the scriptures just to try to prove a belief.

 

[Davy]

My eyes are not closed. I just will not agree to add to the scriptures just to try to prove a belief.

Your accusation of adding is false. The Scripture evidence for when Satan fell is obvious from many Scriptures. What I showed is just a comparison of two of them.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Your accusation of adding is false. The Scripture evidence for when Satan fell is obvious from many Scriptures. What I showed is just a comparison of two of them.

No, you showed me nowhere that is written down in scripture that what you said is true. What you told me is a humans interpretation of scripture of what you believe is true. Don't get me wrong, you have a right to your interpretation, I just don't agree with it.

 

[Davy]

Genesis 2:1-5 gives a reasonable explanation.

1 "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, along with everything in them.
2 On the seventh day God was finished with his work which he had made, so he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 God blessed the seventh day and separated it as holy; because on that day God rested from all his work which he had created, so that it itself could produce.
4 Here is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created. On the day when Adonai, God, made earth and heaven,
5 there was as yet no wild bush on the earth, and no wild plant had as yet sprung up; for Adonai, God, had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no one to cultivate the ground.
6 Rather, a mist went up from the earth which watered the entire surface of the ground.

On the Day of the Lord. Compare this with the final Day of the Lord. The last 1000 years will be an imperfect, yet perfect, mirror of the first 1000 years. For 1000 years Satan as an angel was confined to sitting and watching as an angel/star above the creation, watching the sons of God multiply. Plenty of time to think and reason things out. Then when God created the Garden and placed Adam in it, it seemed a Covenant was made, and Satan ended up being allowed as a serpent in the Garden. Satan could only have rebelled after the first 1000 years of perfection in creation. More than likely it coincided with the sons of God themselves in Genesis 6. There was no death, and seeds did not even die and spring up as wild plants and weeds. Seeds were the food for all the sons of God and the animal life: Genesis 1:29-30

29 Then God said, “Here! Throughout the whole earth I am giving you as food every seed-bearing plant and every tree with seed-bearing fruit.
30 And to every wild animal, bird in the air and creature crawling on the earth, in which there is a living soul, I am giving as food every kind of green plant.” And that is how it was.

Comparing the fact that green plants never came to maturity or decay, but kept producing seeds and the verses in chapter 2 that states no new plants grew from any seeds, not even in the "wild", then we see that even the insects and all life, that breathed air, ate all the seeds as their diet for 1000 years. Literally NOTHING died.

Yet, after the 1000 years, God planted a tree and named it the knowledge of good and evil, and gave Adam the simple task of not eating any of the fruit it grew. If Adam ate, then he would be the first to die. Evil and sin would become everyday, common knowledge. Did Satan ask God about evil, while God was in the process of planting the Garden? Not even Satan knew about evil, yet that curiosity must have been driving him insane. He deceived Eve, by making the claim that God was withholding knowledge from all of creation.

That again is based on man's theories, because men's traditions on the creation in Genesis 1 holds that today's world earth age is God's original creation that has always existed, even before Satan sinned. But Apostle Paul in Romans 8:18-25 doesn't show that's what happened. He shows that God had an earlier time when He first made His creation in a non-corrupt state, and He then later put the creation in a state of corruption to bondage. Apostle Peter explained this too in 2 Peter 3 when he outlined 3 world earth ages; we are in the 2nd one. Satan's rebellion was in the 1st one. And the 3rd one will be God's future Eternity after Christ's future 1,000 years reign that starts at His return.

 

[Timtofly]

That again is based on man's theories, because men's traditions on the creation in Genesis 1 holds that today's world earth age is God's original creation that has always existed, even before Satan sinned. But Apostle Paul in Romans 8:18-25 doesn't show that's what happened. He shows that God had an earlier time when He first made His creation in a non-corrupt state, and He then later put the creation in a state of corruption to bondage. Apostle Peter explained this too in 2 Peter 3 when he outlined 3 world earth ages; we are in the 2nd one. Satan's rebellion was in the 1st one. And the 3rd one will be God's future Eternity after Christ's future 1,000 years reign that starts at His return.

Adam eating in disobedience was when the perfect state ended. There was not a change in creation until the Flood.

Genesis 5 was Adam's history, but not because they were perfect. It was Adam's offspring that corrupted the rest of humanity. Noah just happened to be a direct descendant of Adam, because God promised it would be Eve's seed that would one day defeat Satan. Adam was supposed to be the priestly, royal family living in the Garden, as God's representative among the sons of God. The pre-Flood state was a perfect world, and sin had spread across the map. That was the world destroyed by water, not Genesis 1:1.

That is what Peter an Paul were writing about. The history is clearly written in Genesis. Not sure why you think Genesis 1:1 is the key. That idea is the basis for all pagan creation myths. It comes and goes quite frequently in theology, and back 80 years ago was called the gap theory.

 

[Davy]

Adam eating in disobedience was when the perfect state ended. There was not a change in creation until the Flood.

God did not tremble the earth during the time of Noah to destroy man off the earth then. Hebrews 12:25-27 reveals He shook this old earth once before, and Jeremiah 4:23-28 confirms it too, but that's not pointing to the flood of Noah's day. God strictly used a flood of waters during the time of Noah, which was actually a second flood, and part of this present earth world age. But the shaking of the old earth He did was prior to the time of Adam and Eve.

By the time of Adam and Eve, Satan as "that old serpent" (Revelation 12:9) was already in God's Eden as adversary against God. That means he had already fallen. The time when Satan was in Eden with Adam and Eve is part of this present earth world age preserved unto fire.

1st World Earth Age:
2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, by The Word of God. He spoke and it was done. That was Genesis 1:1, and is specifically the idea Peter was talking about with the phrase in green.

The phrase in red is about the state of the earth at Genesis 1:2-9 with a flood of waters over all of it, destroying that first world age; and then God moving those waters upon the earth to form the sky atmosphere of 'today' around the earth. The rest of those waters He moved around on the earth until the dry land appeared, which was the forming of today's oceans and seas. That's what that idea of the earth standing out of the water and in the water is about.

2nd World Earth Age (Today):
2 Peter 3:7
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
KJV

That 2nd world earth age started at Genesis 1:2 with God moving the flood waters on the earth to form today's sky, and the waters on the earth to form today's oceans. The flood of Noah's day later did not alter God's setting up of this 2nd world earth age. Noah's flood simply brought another flood upon the earth's surface, but it did not kill the earth's seeds of Genesis 1, because the dove brought back an olive branch to Noah after the waters had receded (Genesis 8:11).

3rd World Earth Age (yet future):
2 Peter 3:13
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

This 3rd world earth age is still future to us, and will not begin until after Christ's future 1,000 years reign on earth. It will come after Satan and the wicked are destroyed in the future "lake of fire" (Revelation 20). It represents God's Eternity evermore.

That is the subject Apostle Peter is covering in those 2 Peter 3 verses.



By the time of Adam and Eve, the seed of sin was already sown, by Satan, when he rebelled against God in coveting His throne (Isaiah 14). God cast him out. Lord Jesus said He beheld Satan fall as lightning from heaven (Luke 10:18). That happened in that old world, the 1st world earth age between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. This is why then the power of death was assigned to Satan (Hebrews 2:14). This is why "Death" is even one of Satan's titles as shown in Revelation 6:8. The 1 John 3:8 Scripture tells us that those who sin are of the devil, because the devil sinned from the beginning. Revelation 21:4 reveals in the world to come after Satan and the lake of fire, there will be no more death.

Once all those above concepts from the written Scripture are understood, then it's easy to know that by the time of Adam and Eve in God's Eden, the devil had already sinned and death had been assigned to him AND to this 2nd world earth age, which Adam and Eve were made in the flesh. In other words, because of Adam and Eve's flesh, sin was already prepared for Adam's fall. It had to happen, otherwise Christ being ordained to redeem us from sin and thus death could not have gone forth. So Adam and Eve were not the originators of the very first sin, the devil was. It's only that the very first sin 'in the flesh' was begun by Adam and Eve, and thus imparted to all men born in the flesh.

 

[Timtofly]

God did not tremble the earth during the time of Noah to destroy man off the earth then. Hebrews 12:25-27 reveals He shook this old earth once before, and Jeremiah 4:23-28 confirms it too, but that's not pointing to the flood of Noah's day. God strictly used a flood of waters during the time of Noah, which was actually a second flood, and part of this present earth world age. But the shaking of the old earth He did was prior to the time of Adam and Eve.

By the time of Adam and Eve, Satan as "that old serpent" (Revelation 12:9) was already in God's Eden as adversary against God. That means he had already fallen. The time when Satan was in Eden with Adam and Eve is part of this present earth world age preserved unto fire.

1st World Earth Age:
2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, by The Word of God. He spoke and it was done. That was Genesis 1:1, and is specifically the idea Peter was talking about with the phrase in green.

The phrase in red is about the state of the earth at Genesis 1:2-9 with a flood of waters over all of it, destroying that first world age; and then God moving those waters upon the earth to form the sky atmosphere of 'today' around the earth. The rest of those waters He moved around on the earth until the dry land appeared, which was the forming of today's oceans and seas. That's what that idea of the earth standing out of the water and in the water is about.

2nd World Earth Age (Today):
2 Peter 3:7
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
KJV

That 2nd world earth age started at Genesis 1:2 with God moving the flood waters on the earth to form today's sky, and the waters on the earth to form today's oceans. The flood of Noah's day later did not alter God's setting up of this 2nd world earth age. Noah's flood simply brought another flood upon the earth's surface, but it did not kill the earth's seeds of Genesis 1, because the dove brought back an olive branch to Noah after the waters had receded (Genesis 8:11).

3rd World Earth Age (yet future):
2 Peter 3:13
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

This 3rd world earth age is still future to us, and will not begin until after Christ's future 1,000 years reign on earth. It will come after Satan and the wicked are destroyed in the future "lake of fire" (Revelation 20). It represents God's Eternity evermore.

That is the subject Apostle Peter is covering in those 2 Peter 3 verses.



By the time of Adam and Eve, the seed of sin was already sown, by Satan, when he rebelled against God in coveting His throne (Isaiah 14). God cast him out. Lord Jesus said He beheld Satan fall as lightning from heaven (Luke 10:18). That happened in that old world, the 1st world earth age between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. This is why then the power of death was assigned to Satan (Hebrews 2:14). This is why "Death" is even one of Satan's titles as shown in Revelation 6:8. The 1 John 3:8 Scripture tells us that those who sin are of the devil, because the devil sinned from the beginning. Revelation 21:4 reveals in the world to come after Satan and the lake of fire, there will be no more death.

Once all those above concepts from the written Scripture are understood, then it's easy to know that by the time of Adam and Eve in God's Eden, the devil had already sinned and death had been assigned to him AND to this 2nd world earth age, which Adam and Eve were made in the flesh. In other words, because of Adam and Eve's flesh, sin was already prepared for Adam's fall. It had to happen, otherwise Christ being ordained to redeem us from sin and thus death could not have gone forth. So Adam and Eve were not the originators of the very first sin, the devil was. It's only that the very first sin 'in the flesh' was begun by Adam and Eve, and thus imparted to all men born in the flesh.

Sorry but Peter was talking about the Flood. 2 Peter 2:5

5 And he did not spare the ancient world; on the contrary, he preserved Noach, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, and brought the Flood upon a world of ungodly people.

2 Peter 3:6

6 and that by means of these things the world of that time was flooded with water and destroyed.

Peter already told us it was Noah and the Flood only verses prior.

 

[Davy]

Sorry but Peter was talking about the Flood. 2 Peter 2:5

5 And he did not spare the ancient world; on the contrary, he preserved Noach, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, and brought the Flood upon a world of ungodly people.

2 Peter 3:6

6 and that by means of these things the world of that time was flooded with water and destroyed.

Peter already told us it was Noah and the Flood only verses prior.

You are quoting from 2 Peter 2, NOT... 2 Peter 3 where I've been covering. Two different subjects.

2 Peter 3:4-6
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

The subject starts off about God first creating the earth; no mention of Noah there, since Noah's time was long, long... after that creation.

 

[Timtofly]

You are quoting from 2 Peter 2, NOT... 2 Peter 3 where I've been covering. Two different subjects.

2 Peter 3:4-6
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

The subject starts off about God first creating the earth; no mention of Noah there, since Noah's time was long, long... after that creation.

No, read it again, the Flood was after land was already out of the water and in the water (above the earth). It was the water above that provided Noah's Flood.

and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water

Why would Peter declare 2 ancient worlds destroyed? God Himself declares water can only destroy the earth one time, the next time by fire.

 

[Davy]

No, read it again, the Flood was after land was already out of the water and in the water (above the earth). It was the water above that provided Noah's Flood.

and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water

Why would Peter declare 2 ancient worlds destroyed? God Himself declares water can only destroy the earth one time, the next time by fire.

I have studied 2 Peter 3 many times. I used to think Peter was referring to Noah's flood too, but that was before I even knew about God's destruction of that old world when Satan fell. And it was funny trying to listen to those I researched who made up all kinds of stories of when it might have been when Satan first rebelled. Some of them by supposed Bible scholars too! Most of them didn't know, and it was a simple as that. And the reason is because they failed to understand how God often uses metaphorical examples in His Word that's not obvious with just a passing reading (like Ezekiel 28; and Isaiah 14). However, Bible scholars like Barnes and Bullinger did understand about that old world when Satan first rebelled, and God destroyed it.

 

[Timtofly]

I have studied 2 Peter 3 many times. I used to think Peter was referring to Noah's flood too, but that was before I even knew about God's destruction of that old world when Satan fell. And it was funny trying to listen to those I researched who made up all kinds of stories of when it might have been when Satan first rebelled. Some of them by supposed Bible scholars too! Most of them didn't know, and it was a simple as that. And the reason is because they failed to understand how God often uses metaphorical examples in His Word that's not obvious with just a passing reading (like Ezekiel 28; and Isaiah 14). However, Bible scholars like Barnes and Bullinger did understand about that old world when Satan first rebelled, and God destroyed it.

Satan was perfect for 1000 years after being created on day 4. Your Genesis 1:1 gap theory is refuted by Genesis 2. Study Genesis 2 in light of 2 Peter 3, before jumping to more conclusions. Then you will see God only destroyed creation once by water, and Peter was talking about before the Flood both times and not some human imagination theory.

 

[Davy]

Satan was perfect for 1000 years after being created on day 4.

Nothing at all about that written in God's Word anywhere, not even a hint. You just made that up, because you don't know when Satan first rebelled in coveting God's throne.

 

[Timtofly]

Nothing at all about that written in God's Word anywhere, not even a hint. You just made that up, because you don't know when Satan first rebelled in coveting God's throne.

You did not even look at it. You just made up your objection. Take it or leave it.

I know Satan did not exist before he was created.

 

[Davy]

You did not even look at it. You just made up your objection. Take it or leave it.

I know Satan did not exist before he was created.

I read what you wrote, and as I said, there is nothing written in God's Word to show that Satan was created on God's 4th day, and then for a 1,000 years was perfect in following God. You just made that up.

 

[Timtofly]

I read what you wrote, and as I said, there is nothing written in God's Word to show that Satan was created on God's 4th day, and then for a 1,000 years was perfect in following God. You just made that up.

Not what I wrote, what the Bible says. What does it mean, "the stars also"? He just decided after the fact to throw some stars in? The morning stars sung at beginning of creation. Were there stars before stars on day 4?

“Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you know so much.
Do you know who determined its dimensions
or who stretched the measuring line across it?
On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

 

[Davy]

Not what I wrote, what the Bible says. What does it mean, "the stars also"? He just decided after the fact to throw some stars in? The morning stars sung at beginning of creation. Were there stars before stars on day 4?

“Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you know so much.
Do you know who determined its dimensions
or who stretched the measuring line across it?
On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

We have no way of knowing just when God first created Satan and when Satan was 'perfect in his ways' serving God at His Altar (Ezekiel 28). Likewise, we have no way of knowing how far back in the past when God created His original formation which was not in bondage to vanity (Romans 8:18-25). But we do know, per Romans 8, and Jeremiah 4:23-28, that God's original creation was not in the bondage of corruption it has been in for this present world.