The ultimate corruption of religion

[mjrhealth]

God is not for sale and any one who thinks they can sell Him or His word for a proffit is a fool.

But apprently in Denmark its the same.

Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

Inall His love

 

[Selene]

Aparrently they are since if you do not pay you cannot have them.


Besides your excuse doesn't work...

Germany's Roman Catholic bishops have decreed that people who opt out of a "church tax" should not be given sacraments and religious burials, getting tougher on worshippers who choose not to pay.

You don't have to denounce your faith. You just have to "opt out of the church tax".

In all fairness...it's not just Catholics. It also applies to Protestants and Jews.

What a sick society. Considering Jesus overturned the tables in the temple, he must be fuming over this one.

The article is referring only to those who denounced their Catholic faith. According to the article and to what the Vatican approved in its decree, it stated:

The bishops said the consequences of leaving the church had not been clearly spelled out in the past. Some Catholics have tried to remain active in their parish or have a religious burial despite leaving the church to avoid paying the tax.

The Vatican gave its approval for the decree before it was issued, the statement said.

Catholics who leave can no longer receive sacraments, except for a special blessing before death, the decree states.
They cannot work in the church or its institutions, such as schools and hospitals, or be active in church-sponsored associations such as charity groups or choirs.

I also highly recommend that you read the article before you post. Nowhere in the article does it mention someone who was unable to pay the Church tax. The decree specifically stated, "Catholics who leave can no longer receive sacraments." It has always been referring to those who denounced their Catholic faith in order to avoid paying the tax; yet, still continue to participate in the Catholic Church. No Protestant is able to receive the sacrament of the Eucharist......and this should also include Catholics who chose to denounce their Catholic faith. When a Catholic chooses to leave their faith even if to avoid paying the tax, that means they are no longer Catholic. And if you are no longer Catholic, you should NOT be receiving the sacraments especially the Eucharist.

 

[Rex]

The temple itself does not represent the Scribes and Pharisees. It represent Judaism and Christ was a Jew. By using this verse, I was identifying what a true Christian should do. Christ did not give up His faith and went ahead and paid the temple tax.

No matter how you want to slice and dice it Selene the fact is you are comparing the temple tax to the Catholic tax.
Jesus compared this tax to the kings of the earth tax. Then the sons are exempt. But yet your church charges a tax.
He said as to not offend them, so to not offend your church we should pay the tax that the sons are exempt from.

So,This tax was unduly collected from the rightful sons and the rightful owner of the temple. As seen in scripture, the question is are you riding in the same boat?

Like I said you picked a poor verse to bolster justification of paying taxes for your brand of salvation the "Eucharist", the same as the Jews did with approved temple sacrifices. Money changers and venders, provided approved coins and sacrifices. The same as you claim in your "Eucharist" being paid for.

"What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes--from their own sons or from others?" "From others," Peter answered. "Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him. "But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."

I really can't tell the difference between you the Catholic church, and them the Scribes and Pharisees in the Jewish temple.

 

[Selene]

No matter how you want to slice and dice it Selene the fact is you are comparing the temple tax to the Catholic tax.
Jesus compared this tax to the kings of the earth tax. Then the sons are exempt. But yet your church charges a tax.
He said as to not offend them, so to not offend your church we should pay the tax that the sons are exempt from.

So,This tax was unduly collected from the rightful sons and the rightful owner of the temple. As seen in scripture, the question is are you riding in the same boat?

Like I said you picked a poor verse to bolster justification of paying taxes for your brand of salvation the "Eucharist", the same as the Jews did with approved temple sacrifices. Money changers and venders, provided approved coins and sacrifices. The same as you claim in your "Eucharist" being paid for.

My Church does not charge a tax, Brother Rex. The Church tax is only found in certain countries in Europe like Germany. This Church tax is in the law books of Germany's government. It did not come from any law books of the Roman Catholic Church.

And as I said, I picked that verse to show what a true Christian should be. I focused on Jesus' action in that verse. What did you focus in that verse?

 

[Rex]

My Church does not charge a tax, Brother Rex. The Church tax is only found in certain countries in Europe like Germany. This Church tax is in the law books of Germany's government. It did not come from any law books of the Roman Catholic Church.

But you always claim you are all one under Rome. Sounds like your trying to blame the gov for the responsibility of the church again, you did the same when it comes to the reformation. You try to wash your hands just as Pontius Pilate did. You fill the heads, of the heads of state with your doctrine and when they enforce it "as your church did" it you claim no responsibility. Nice

 

[Selene]

But you always claim you are all one under Rome. Sounds like your trying to blame the gov for the responsibility of the church again, you did the same when it comes to the reformation. You try to wash your hands just as Pontius Pilate did. You fill the heads, of the heads of state with your doctrine and when they enforce it "as your church did" it you claim no responsibility. Nice

The Italian government has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church. Don't you know that Vatican City is a soverign state separate from Italy?? The Pope is the Head of State of Vatican City.....not Italy! That is a FACT that somehow you failed to recognize. We were never even part of the Roman Empire. It was the Roman Empire that persecuted the Roman Church in Rome.

We are all one under Rome (which in this case would be Vatican City), but because Catholics are found all over the world, this does not mean that we are to disobey the laws of the country we are living in. I live in Guam, so although I am one with Rome, I still have to abide by the laws of Guam. Catholics living in the US are one with Rome, but still abide by the laws of the United States.

As Catholics, we follow the teachings of the Catholic Church and abide by the canon law. The canon law says that if a Catholic leaves the Church, they cannot receive the sacrament of the Eucharist. This is in the canon law of the Church. It is also in her teachings.

 

[Rex]

My Church does not charge a tax, Brother Rex. The Church tax is only found in certain countries in Europe like Germany. This Church tax is in the law books of Germany's government. It did not come from any law books of the Roman Catholic Church.

And as I said, I picked that verse to show what a true Christian should be. I focused on Jesus' action in that verse. What did you focus in that verse?

The Italian government has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church. Don't you know that Vatican City is a soverign state separate from Italy?? The Pope is the Head of State of Vatican City.....not Italy! That is a FACT that somehow you failed to recognize.

We are all one under Rome (which in this case would be Vatican City), but because Catholics are found all over the world, this does not mean that we are to disobey the laws of the country we are living in. I live in Guam, so although I am one with Rome, I still have to abide by the laws of Guam. Catholics living in the US are one with Rome, but still abide by the laws of the United States.

Spin baby spin
You first mention Germany, then you compare it to Italy. As i said you try to wash your hands when its the bishops that are refusing to give the Eucharist.
Nothing new under the catholic sun is there. the reality is your in khoots with each other, the German gov and the Bishops of Germany, just as I said in my last post.

PARIS (Reuters)- Germany's Roman Catholic bishops have decreed that people who opt out of a "church tax" should not be given sacraments and religious burials, getting tougher on worshippers who choose not to pay.

 

[Selene]

Spin baby spin
You first mention Germany, then you compare it to Italy. As i said you try to wash your hands when its the bishops that are refusing to give the Eucharist.
Nothing new under the catholic sun is there. the reality is your in khoots with each other, the German gov and the Bishops of Germany, just as I said in my last post.

PARIS (Reuters)- Germany's Roman Catholic bishops have decreed that people who opt out of a "church tax" should not be given sacraments and religious burials, getting tougher on worshippers who choose not to pay.

If you had taken Reading 101, you would have learned that reading the entire article explains everything. It helps to get in the practice of reading the entire story. Afterall, when a person reads only one sentence from the Bible, they would be taking it out of context.....just as you are doing now.

 

[Rex]

I'll leave you to spin your own little tale

about this incident as well as the bible
Bye

Bye

 

[aspen]

Of course, there is your disbelief in the Trinity to consider, Rex, which places you outside orthodox Christianity. As far as I am concerned, your critique of any Christian or Christian doctrine rings hollow. All future comments by you will be seen for what they are, opinions of an outsider.

 

[Rex]

Of course, there is your disbelief in the Trinity to consider, Rex, which places you outside orthodox Christianity. As far as I am concerned, your critique of any Christian or Christian doctrine rings hollow. All future comments by you will be seen for what they are, opinions of an outsider.

Perhaps you would like to elaborate on the topic.
I don't believe you have ever expressed such an opinion about my conversations with others.

Take a shot in the dark if you will.


Prove your accusation




OK Aspen I did a little looking at the catholic encyclopedia.



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.
Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen ("In Ps. xvii", 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:

I disagree with the part about them being co-equal Jesus said numerous times in the Gospels that the Father was greater than He.
As well Jesus said blasphemy against the Son of man would be forgiven, but not against the Holy Spirit, another distinction and notation that your definition ignores, Paul said Phil 2:6 read before and after the verse. It shows the working relationship between the the Father and Son. Again one being preeminent.

That she part looks a little suspicious to me as well, I'm not going to even attempt to pretend I understand that statement.

In all I'm very happy to be in disagreement with the Catholic church.

 

[THE Gypsy]

I'll leave you to spin your own little tale [img=[URL="http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/smilies/sv/stirthepot.gif%5D%C2%A0"]http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/smilies/sv/stirthepot.gif] [/URL] about this incident as well as the bible
Bye [img=[URL="http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/images/smilies/031.gif%5DBye"]http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/images/smilies/031.gif]Bye[/URL]

High is the delusion in those that kiss the ring.

 

[Rex]

High is the delusion in those that kiss the ring.

Its been my experience outside this forum as well, that when confronted with indisputable facts Catholics among others resort to "as Selene did"
comprehension of what is said. You can reference dictionary's, catechisms their own encyclopedias to support your understanding and presentation, and they will still insist you misunderstand. This in Catholics then moves into the realm of the magistrate, they are afforded a clause of escape, Being the soul interpreters of Gods words, will, and desire the magisteriume likes to use words like mystery,

I don't make this stuff up.

That is usually my cue, my point has been made and its time to go.

 

[Selene]

Its been my experience outside this forum as well, that when confronted with indisputable facts Catholics among others resort to "as Selene did"
comprehension of what is said. You can reference dictionary's, catechisms their own encyclopedias to support your understanding and presentation, and they will still insist you misunderstand. This in Catholics then moves into the realm of the magistrate, they are afforded a clause of escape, Being the soul interpreters of Gods words, will, and desire the magisteriume likes to use words like mystery,

I don't make this stuff up.

That is usually my cue, my point has been made and its time to go.

Anyone reading the posts already know that those who resort to making personal attacks do so because they no longer could stick to the topic of discussion simply because they cannot refute what I posted. Brother Rex, we all know that you did NOT reference anything nor even quote anything from the article. I am the one referencing the quotes in the article and even brought up the canon law of the Catholic Church. What did you reference??

When you start saying that I twist words around instead of discussing the topic of discussion, you already lost the debate. I have always stated in my post exactly what the article stated......that Catholics who denounce their faith even to avoid paying the tax are no longer Catholics. So far, no one has ever disputed this fact, which is what the article is actually about. Instead, others were trying to make it look like the article was saying that the Roman Catholic Church was denying the sacraments to people who were unable to pay the Church tax. That is what I call twisting the words in the article.

 

[Rex]

Anyone reading the posts already know that those who resort to making personal attacks do so because they no longer could stick to the topic of discussion simply because they cannot refute what I posted. Brother Rex, we all know that you did NOT reference anything nor even quote anything from the article. I am the one referencing the quotes in the article and even brought up the canon law of the Catholic Church. What did you reference??

When you start saying that I twist words around instead of discussing the topic of discussion, you already lost the debate. I have always stated in my post exactly what the article stated......that Catholics who denounce their faith even to avoid paying the tax are no longer Catholics. So far, no one has ever disputed this fact, which is what the article is actually about. Instead, others were trying to make it look like the article was saying that the Roman Catholic Church was denying the sacraments to people who were unable to pay the Church tax. That is what I call twisting the words in the article.

Is there something out of context that I have said Selene? You don't reverent and follow the magisteriume? don't they frequently refer to the mystery?
And I do believe it was you that inferred I needed reading comprehension skills "thus making your conversation personal", I was referencing the story. It appears to be you alone that questions the stories meaning and content as it reads.

As Is said on the other page it certainly proves the German branch RCC and the Gov of Germany are in cooperation with each other.
What do you call it when people denounce faith to avoid taxes and the church obligates and denys its sacred Eucharist?
I call it the blind leading the blind, people that denounce a church to save a buck, then the church that refuses to administer it sacrament because of the same money. Blind leading the blind. Nether the church or the members have the fortitude to do whats right in the eyes of God.

OOh and I forgot all about your side kick aspen wheeling in here and preforming a drive by.

 

[Selene]

Is there something out of context that I have said Selene? You don't reverent and follow the magisteriume? don't they frequently refer to the mystery?
And I do believe it was you that inferred I needed reading comprehension skills "thus making your conversation personal", I was referencing the story. It appears to be you alone that questions the stories meaning and content as it reads.

As Is said on the other page it certainly proves the German branch RCC and the Gov of Germany are in cooperation with each other.
What do you call it when people denounce faith to avoid taxes and the church obligates and denys its sacred Eucharist?
I call it the blind leading the blind, people that denounce a church to save a buck, then the church that refuses to administer it sacrament because of the same money. Blind leading the blind. Nether the church or the members have the fortitude to do whats right in the eyes of God.


OOh and I forgot all about your side kick aspen wheeling in here and preforming a drive by.

The Government of the Germany has no state religion. Don't you know that in Germany, Protestant churches also charge a church tax? That is what it also says in the article. This church tax does not come from the Roman Catholic Church because I don't pay a church tax here, and I'm Roman Catholic.

You ask what do I call it when people denounce their faith to avoid the church tax? I already stated in my previous posts that those who denounced their faith should be treated as the same as those who actually left the Church. When you denounce your faith.....what that means is that you are declaring to be "no longer Catholic." And why should the Catholic Church administer the sacraments to those who have already declared that they are "not Catholic?"

When a person denounces their faith to avoid paying a tax, the Church is correct in not giving them the sacraments. What exactly do you call a person who denounces his Christian faith? Would you still call him a Christian?

 

[Rex]

The Government of the Germany has no state religion. Don't you know that in Germany, Protestant churches also charge a church tax? That is what it also says in the article. This church tax does not come from the Roman Catholic Church because I don't pay a church tax here, and I'm Roman Catholic.

You ask what do I call it when people denounce their faith to avoid the church tax? I already stated in my previous posts that those who denounced their faith should be treated as the same as those who actually left the Church. When you denounce your faith.....what that means is that you are declaring to be "no longer Catholic." And why should the Catholic Church administer the sacraments to those who have already declared that they are "not Catholic?"

When a person denounces their faith to avoid paying a tax, the Church is correct in not giving them the sacraments. What exactly do you call a person who denounces his Christian faith? Would you still call him a Christian?

Your church has a long and luxurious history with being joined at the hip with Governments. Beginning with your inception in what? 382 AD The RCC became the only approved state religion in the Roman Empire.

As soon as the Gov in your country implements such a law Its pretty clear from the German example what will be the out come where you live.

Funny isn't, I didn't read about the protestant churches refusing or excommunicating people because of a tax.
Heres why, the catholic decree from the story

"This decree makes clear that one cannot partly leave the Church," a statement from the bishops conference said. "It is not possible to separate the spiritual community of the Church from the institutional Church."

Your church is incapable by its own self imposed decrees, that salvation is only found in it the RCC. You see it as denouncing Christ, and nobody denounces the RCC. It used to be under the penalty of law or death, or torturing a confession to the RCC out of you. That's something else I don't believe the RCC would bat an eyebrow about If the Gov seen fit to enforce it.
The Pope would be blessing them just as they did in the past.

 

[Selene]

Your church has a long and luxurious history with being joined at the hip with Governments. Beginning with your inception in what? 382 AD The RCC became the only approved state religion in the Roman Empire.

As soon as the Gov in your country implements such a law Its pretty clear from the German example what will be the out come where you live.

Funny isn't, I didn't read about the protestant churches refusing or excommunicating people because of a tax.
Heres why, the catholic decree from the story
Your church is incapable by its own self imposed decrees, that salvation is only found in it the RCC. You see it as denouncing Christ, and nobody denounces the RCC. It used to be under the penalty of law or death, or torturing a confession to the RCC out of you. That's something else I don't believe the RCC would bat an eyebrow about If the Gov seen fit to enforce it.
The Pope would be blessing them just as they did in the past.

I thought we were discussing the government of Germany? Suddenly, you decided to go back into 382 A.D.? Really....Brother Rex, keep to the topic. I noticed you didn't answer my question. If a Christian denounces his faith, would you still call him a Christian? I don't think so.

 

[Rex]

Denouncing faith in a church is not denouncing Christ.
And your churches long history of being in bed with Gov at every opportunity, never protesting but rather encouraging it, and seeing how the RCC now dances with Germany, that history is hard to ignore.

 

[Selene]

Denouncing faith in a church is not denouncing Christ.
And your churches long history of being in bed with Gov at every opportunity, never protesting but rather encouraging it, and seeing how the RCC now dances with Germany, that history is hard to ignore.

For Catholics, denouncing the Church is denouncing Christ. Why? Because the Holy Bible says that the Head of the Church is Christ. The Church is the "Body of Christ." The Church is not a building. It is an assembly of people. For Catholics, the Head and Body of Christ are ONE and cannot be separated. I don't know about what your church teaches, but we teach that we (the Church) are ONE with Christ. And because we are ONE with Christ, we are not separated from Him. What does your church teach??

Don't you remember that when the Apostle Paul was persecuting the Church, the risen Christ appeared to him and said, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?" In that statement, Christ did not separate Himself from the Church.