The Wages of Sin is Death, even the second Death

[bro.tan]

Just desired to share some of my insights with you, which you may agree or disagree with.

From my perspective, which could be wrong. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. Indeed are the Laws, given in the old testament, a guide to be learned from. While one allows Yahava to write on ones mind and heart, in having a relationship with him. This is one of the ways that Yahava is able to speak though when he speaks to the nation of Israel at the time there was a material covenant agreement on Yahava with himself, in which those things which are spoken of in the old testament there was a promised coming destruction of that age, which would end that age entirely.

What one decides to between themselves and Yahava is between them and Yahava. Yahava by the spirit can speak to people in the nudging of emotions from with in you, and your conscious. Which can be difficult to understand, especially if you have someone not promoting the freedom which the Spirit brings forth of where the Lord is, there is freedom.

Freedom? To much responsibility there are some whom would say. Freedom to be able love Yahava, and to love other people. That is what it comes down too, right friend?

How can one be free from the bondage of the madding voices of the world and it's opinions, the darkness, and the seducing spirits of the world which choke out the life of the spirit within a believer (sometimes severely) even walking away from Yahava.

So my question then will be, what law did Christ end? Paul says in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law.

(v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy.

Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin.

Sit back and think about this before you respond.

 

[bro.tan]

How does the Bible (or God) define "death"?

Well, there's two types of Spiritual death and one type of physical death. I'm not going to habe time to post all these types of death right now. One type of spiritual death is when Jesus quoted
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. This is the spirit that dwells within you. His word
when you keep his commandments, Statues and Judgements. Let’s go to the Psalm and see this again. Before we go there I want you to remember this in Isaiah. Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Another spiritual death is Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Look at verse 13, For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Notice it said mortify the "Deeds of the body through the spirit.” What does mortify mean? It means “subdue by abstinence.” In other words bring this sinful body under control and walk in the Lord's spirit which is his word. Look at 23, And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. What do “redemption of are vile bodies” mean? Take a look at this.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. And when will this take place? I Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. At the last trump, and not a moment before.


Physical death.....Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

For the living know not any thing, neither any more reward. Why? Once you're dead there is no more hope. If you went to the grave in Christ, he will awake you in the first resurrection, and you will live and reign on the earth with him and the saints. If you did not die in Christ he will wake you in the second resurrection and you will be judged according to your works. If you are dead do you have any memory? What did Solomon say? "For the memory of them is forgotten". Now we know you have no more memory while you are in the grave. If you did something wrong to a person and they're dead, you don't have to worry, they won't come and haunt your house.

Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This verse speaks for itself. To put it short you don't remember anything while you are in the grave. Why does he continue to say "under the sun"? He's said it twice. We will find out a little later.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest.
If there is no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom, in the grave, why does the status quo say there are spirits that walk the earth? They have no knowledge of the Word of God. There are spirits that walk the earth, but they are not dead people. They are fallen angels. We will see an example of one later. In short, the dead don't know anything


I can go on and on, this is a big topic within itself.

 

[bro.tan]

Dear bro.tan,
I just wanted to make some comments about this statement of yours:

To repent means to turn from our sinful ways and start obeying God's law. The water baptism signifies the washing away of our past sins. After repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus it would be foolish for us to turn around and willingly break God's commandments. If we make an honest mistake Jesus can help us, but if we sin willingly, look out! "...there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation..." (Hebrews 10:26-27). Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin.

To repent means to repent from our "works". You are misunderstanding what Paul was teaching in Hebrews. You need to read the whole 10th chapter of Hebrews again. Paul is explaining the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. To "sin willingly" is referring to adding our own works (Old Covenant) to the work of Christ (New Covenant). When a believer mixes in their own works with faith, there is "no more sacrifice for sins".

When John the Baptist came with the call to repent, he was likewise calling for the Nation of Israel to repent of their works that they were doing under the Old Covenant of Law.

Paul also said this earlier in Hebrews:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God...

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Repentance from dead works is the FOUNDATION of our faith toward Christ. After a believer has received the Early Rain of the Spirit and has repented of their works, it is impossible to renew them if they should "fall away" from their original repentance from works. When a believer mixes in their own works with faith, they have committed the one and only sin that leads to death. Once the believer has spiritually died, they cannot be renewed to Christ simply by repenting of works again. The solution: Christ must "come again" and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

Because mixing in works with faith is the only sin that leads to death, it is the sin that Satan uses to kill the saints. That sin is what Satan's "another gospel" is founded upon and is why all apostate churches teach and follow it. Any other sin that a believer may commit is covered by the blood of Christ under the New Covenant - but if a believer commits the sin that leads to death, they will no longer be covered under the New Covenant. They have fallen back to the Old Covenant of man's works.

Your misunderstanding of repentance is causing you to greatly misunderstand the New Covenant.

Joe

I not miss understanding Hebrew 10th chapter. But you are miss understanding, and that you are not teaching what I'm teaching. You are teaching Roman Christianity doctrine, I said that from the beginning. Pay attention to what's being said here. Now, you learn what I'm teaching, or you can continue believing in that doctrine that came newly up after the death of the apostles.

I would like for you to break down Hebrew 10th from your doctrine (Roman Christianity), I will do the same. I teach the uncut word of God according to the Prophets (Old Testament) and the Apostles (New Testament). We observe the Lord’s Sabbath Day, the Lord’s Feast Days (as outlined in Leviticus 23rd chapter), and the Lord’s Dietary Law (as outlined in Leviticus 11th chapter). I teach and observe the Royal Law, which is the Ten Commandments.

I also believe in the resurrection and that Jesus is the King of Israel who will rule over the House of Jacob forever. We believe Jesus is the God of all people and his house “shall be a house of prayer for all people”. (Isaiah 56:7)

 

[bro.tan]

Dear bro.tan,
You have built your foundation with "works" mixed with faith. With this faulty foundation, you cannot build upon it. That is the reason you can't accept the verses I am posting which contradict your beliefs. Until your foundation is destroyed and replaced with the foundation of "Truth" (Christ), these scriptures I post will hold little value to you.

Paul said that even mixing in only one work (like circumcision) with faith will cause a believer (who has only the Early Rain of the Spirit) to fall from grace. When this happens, the believer will remain under the Law and a debtor to keep the whole Law - which cannot be done my man. When a person realizes this truth, it will lead them to Christ and the New Covenant. Under the New Covenant, Christ will do 100% of the work.

The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). DON'T FOOL YOURSELF! If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him. Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD” (James 2:20).

Some say you must obey God's word, but then they turn around and teach contrary to God's word. At best they never get around to explaining exactly what kind of works are needed to get eternal life. A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

Christ will do His work within (spiritually) the person by giving them both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. With the Spirit indwelling the person, the Spirit will cause them to "will and do of His good pleasure". The works the person does are the works of Christ and are not their own. It is by this spiritual process that all mankind will be made into children of God who will keep the Lord's commandments. This is the only way it can be done. For this reason, mankind will have nothing to boast about concerning their salvation.

As for what James said, you are misunderstanding him. When a believer is given the Early Rain of the Spirit, the Spirit is only given in "measure" (a small amount).

People we must realize, that it is the keeping of God’s holy laws that separates the righteous from the unrighteous and the Saints from the Sinners. (Titus: 3:8) This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. You must learn (by the word of God) what God expects of you and maintain his expectations to the end, if you expect to be saved. Jesus says in (Matt. 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. You are supposed to glorify your Father in heaven, and let your light shine before men. And how do you do that? By having good works. Lets go into (James 2: (v.14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself (represents the spirit of anti-Christ), and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

And likewise, the faith that comes from this small amount of the Spirit is also given in "measure". For this reason, the believer will remain carnally minded and spiritually blind. Because of these weakness, Satan will quickly deceive them and cause them to follow His "another gospel". When this happens, the new believer's faith will die and they will not be able to produce any fruit.

The fruit that Christ requires is the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, etc.). When a believer is converted, they will produce the fruit of the Spirit naturally because Christ has changed their heart and mind to match His heart and mind. In other words, Christ is reigning from within them causing them to "will and do of His good pleasure". Everything that the converted believer does will be based upon this truth. This is what produces their "works of faith" and what causes them to love God and their neighbors. When they do this, they are keeping the commandments of God.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

And as I said, it happens naturally because the converted believer is changed from within.

For this reason, John said this:

1John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

And Christ said this:

Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

My love for you is why I am willing to spend time with you on this forum, hoping it will benefit you (as the Lord wills) in some way.

Since all believers in the "churches" have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit, they are all unconverted and spiritually blind. Because of their blindness, Satan has no trouble in deceiving them. Christ teaches that the pathway to salvation for the Elect goes THROUGH the apostate church. No one who receives the Early Rain of the Spirit can avoid becoming apostate. It happened to me and it happens to everyone. However, after a fallen away Elect believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the baptism), they will come out of the apostate church system and be restored to Christ. This happens because their faith is increased and their spiritual blindness is healed when they receive the Latter Rain. Only then are they able to "see" the Abomination of Desolation that had previously occurred within themselves (Mat 24:15). Unless a believer has seen the A of D, they are not converted but are still under the deceptions of Satan. That's the nature of being deceived - a person cannot know that they are deceived while it is happening.

When I was converted in 2005, I immediately saw who and what I had become in Satan's apostate church. It really does not matter what denomination of church a person attends because they all mix works with faith (the crooked way and the sin that leads to death). This is the common denominator they all have. But since they are spiritually blind, they are also blown around by every wind of doctrine and unable to find the truth. The loaf of bread they are consuming is fully leavened:

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

One final point I want to make; when Christ is ready to "come again" (the second coming) to a fallen away Elect believer, He will cause them to pray. This prayer can be for understanding or maybe for more faith - but the answer to that prayer is always the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain). That is what Christ is teaching here:

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

This scripture is addressed Elect believers who have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is associated with the parable that Christ teaches in verses 5 - 8 about the person who comes to a "friend" (represents Christ) at "midnight" (deepest part of their spiritual blindness) to ask for 3 loaves of bread. The number three represents a spiritual process and bread represents the truth of God. To receive these 3 loafs of bread, Christ says to pray for the Holy Spirit (knock and ask).



Joe

 

[Bob Estey]

Well, there's two types of Spiritual death and one type of physical death. I'm not going to habe time to post all these types of death right now. One type of spiritual death is when Jesus quoted
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. This is the spirit that dwells within you. His word
when you keep his commandments, Statues and Judgements. Let’s go to the Psalm and see this again. Before we go there I want you to remember this in Isaiah. Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Another spiritual death is Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Look at verse 13, For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Notice it said mortify the "Deeds of the body through the spirit.” What does mortify mean? It means “subdue by abstinence.” In other words bring this sinful body under control and walk in the Lord's spirit which is his word. Look at 23, And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. What do “redemption of are vile bodies” mean? Take a look at this.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. And when will this take place? I Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. At the last trump, and not a moment before.


Physical death.....Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

For the living know not any thing, neither any more reward. Why? Once you're dead there is no more hope. If you went to the grave in Christ, he will awake you in the first resurrection, and you will live and reign on the earth with him and the saints. If you did not die in Christ he will wake you in the second resurrection and you will be judged according to your works. If you are dead do you have any memory? What did Solomon say? "For the memory of them is forgotten". Now we know you have no more memory while you are in the grave. If you did something wrong to a person and they're dead, you don't have to worry, they won't come and haunt your house.

Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This verse speaks for itself. To put it short you don't remember anything while you are in the grave. Why does he continue to say "under the sun"? He's said it twice. We will find out a little later.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest.
If there is no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom, in the grave, why does the status quo say there are spirits that walk the earth? They have no knowledge of the Word of God. There are spirits that walk the earth, but they are not dead people. They are fallen angels. We will see an example of one later. In short, the dead don't know anything


I can go on and on, this is a big topic within itself.

I think death means suffering, at least in some cases:

[17] "Yet your people say, `The way of the Lord is not just'; when it is their own way that is not just.
[18] When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it.
[19] And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it.
[20] Yet you say, `The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways." Ezekiel 33:17-20 RSV

 

[MatthewG]

So my question then will be, what law did Christ end? Paul says in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law.

(v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy.

Paul says in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin.

Sit back and think about this before you respond.

Is sin taken care of or not? Who was the law given to? The Gentiles had no law other than overthemselves.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I not miss understanding Hebrew 10th chapter. But you are miss understanding, and that you are not teaching what I'm teaching. You are teaching Roman Christianity doctrine, I said that from the beginning. Pay attention to what's being said here. Now, you learn what I'm teaching, or you can continue believing in that doctrine that came newly up after the death of the apostles.

I would like for you to break down Hebrew 10th from your doctrine (Roman Christianity), I will do the same. I teach the uncut word of God according to the Prophets (Old Testament) and the Apostles (New Testament). We observe the Lord’s Sabbath Day, the Lord’s Feast Days (as outlined in Leviticus 23rd chapter), and the Lord’s Dietary Law (as outlined in Leviticus 11th chapter). I teach and observe the Royal Law, which is the Ten Commandments.

I also believe in the resurrection and that Jesus is the King of Israel who will rule over the House of Jacob forever. We believe Jesus is the God of all people and his house “shall be a house of prayer for all people”. (Isaiah 56:7)

Dear bro.tan,

I have thoroughly read all of Hebrews chapter 10 and it is teaching on the difference between the Old Covenant of Law vs. the New Covenant of Grace through faith. The Old Covenant is founded upon man's works and the New Covenant is founded upon the works of Christ.

The teaching of repentance from dead works is not a new teaching that came about after the deaths of the Apostles. Paul teaches this truth frequently in His letters because it is the foundation of faith in Christ, who will do all the works necessary for our salvation.

Look at what Paul said four chapters earlier in Hebrews:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of age enduring judgment.

This verse above is the subject of the chapter. Paul is not teaching about repenting from our many sins, he is teaching about repenting from trying to be acceptable to God by our own works. Trying to be acceptable to God by "works" is the foundation of all the religions in the world - it is the crooked way For that reason, Satan is called the "crooked serpent". Satan's false gospel is founded upon man's works (religion).

When Moses lifted up the serpent on the pole, it provided atonement to those who looked upon it. But it was only temporary. The reason a serpent was used on the pole was because the "works of the Law" is the crooked way of Satan. It is not the way of righteousness.

You have been saying that if we willfully sin after we are saved that we will lose our salvation. "Willfully sinning" is referring to the sin of mixing our own works in with the works of Christ - that is the sin that leads to death.

Peter teaches about falling away from the "way of righteousness" below:

2Pet 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment (repentance from dead works) delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The "way of righteousness" is the straightway of faith in Christ. When Peter mentions being entangled again in the pollutions of the world, Peter is referring to religion which is based on the works of man. Peter even calls religion "vomit" and "mire".

Paul teaches this same truth in the fifth chapter of Galatians:

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

The "yoke of bondage" is trying to follow the Law so as to make yourself acceptable to God.

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Paul says that when a person tries to follow the Law even on just one point, it will make that person a debtor to follow the whole Law. The end result is that they will be "fallen from grace". This is the "willful sin" and the only sin that leads to death.

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Under the New Covenant, faith is all that is necessary to make the pathway straight for Christ to come to a person and do His spiritual work of conversion within them. And Christ gives the person the faith they need, too. Our salvation is completely in the hands of Christ. We contribute nothing towards it.

Also, no one will remain lost forever as you believe because Christ is solely responsible for doing all the necessary work of saving mankind AND HE CANNOT FAIL.

You said:
I teach the uncut word of God according to the Prophets (Old Testament) and the Apostles (New Testament). We observe the Lord’s Sabbath Day, the Lord’s Feast Days (as outlined in Leviticus 23rd chapter), and the Lord’s Dietary Law (as outlined in Leviticus 11th chapter). I teach and observe the Royal Law, which is the Ten Commandments.

Nowhere in the writings of the NT does it ever instruct believers to observe the Sabbath Day, Feast Days or dietary laws. Those physical laws were given to foreshadow their spiritual fulfillment which occurs when a believer is converted. The physical observance of those laws is null and void under the New Covenant. You are not understanding this truth because you are not understanding the differences between the Old and New Covenants.

You said:
I also believe in the resurrection and that Jesus is the King of Israel who will rule over the House of Jacob forever. We believe Jesus is the God of all people and his house “shall be a house of prayer for all people”. (Isaiah 56:7)

Jesus will not rule over the house of Jacob forever (should be translated as "for the ages"). After the last enemy of death is defeated (last person is saved), Christ's reign will come to an end and He will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to His Father. At that time, God will be "all in all" because all mankind (all who died in Adam) will be saved and in the Kingdom of Heaven.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). DON'T FOOL YOURSELF! If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him. Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD” (James 2:20).

Some say you must obey God's word, but then they turn around and teach contrary to God's word. At best they never get around to explaining exactly what kind of works are needed to get eternal life. A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).



People we must realize, that it is the keeping of God’s holy laws that separates the righteous from the unrighteous and the Saints from the Sinners. (Titus: 3:8) This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. You must learn (by the word of God) what God expects of you and maintain his expectations to the end, if you expect to be saved. Jesus says in (Matt. 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. You are supposed to glorify your Father in heaven, and let your light shine before men. And how do you do that? By having good works. Lets go into (James 2: (v.14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?

Dear bro.tan,
You are not hearing the words of Christ. It is Christ within us who keeps the commandments because He is the one who causes us to "will and do of His good pleasure".

By mixing in your own works with faith under the New Covenant, you are practicing religion which is the crooked way of Satan.

Joe

 

[MatthewG]

It is Christ within us who keeps the commandments because He is the one who causes us to "will and do of His good pleasure".


Joe

Hello Joe,
Would agree.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Hello Joe,
Would agree.

Dear MatthewG,
Scripture says that Christ came to fulfill the Law and not just some of it. He satisfied the blood sacrifice requirements of the Law at the cross. He is now working individually from "within" mankind to fulfill the remainder of the Law. After His work is complete, all who died in Adam will be made alive in Christ. Christ does all the work to make this happen and that is why salvation for all mankind is a certainty. The reason most believers won't accept this truth is because they don't understand Christ's plan to accomplish it.

Thanks for the post.
Joe

 

[bro.tan]

Dear bro.tan,
You are not hearing the words of Christ. It is Christ within us who keeps the commandments because He is the one who causes us to "will and do of His good pleasure".

By mixing in your own works with faith under the New Covenant, you are practicing religion which is the crooked way of Satan.

Joe

Sorry Joe, that's not Bible that's Roman Christianity thinking and teaching. Paul concerning the unchangeable Royal Law of God. (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. (See exodus 20: 1-17)

So if you say that you know God, but you don’t keep his commandments, lets see what the Lord had specially written for you.

(1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[bro.tan]

Dear bro.tan,

I have thoroughly read all of Hebrews chapter 10 and it is teaching on the difference between the Old Covenant of Law vs. the New Covenant of Grace through faith. The Old Covenant is founded upon man's works and the New Covenant is founded upon the works of Christ.

The teaching of repentance from dead works is not a new teaching that came about after the deaths of the Apostles. Paul teaches this truth frequently in His letters because it is the foundation of faith in Christ, who will do all the works necessary for our salvation.

Look at what Paul said four chapters earlier in Hebrews:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of age enduring judgment.

This verse above is the subject of the chapter. Paul is not teaching about repenting from our many sins, he is teaching about repenting from trying to be acceptable to God by our own works. Trying to be acceptable to God by "works" is the foundation of all the religions in the world - it is the crooked way For that reason, Satan is called the "crooked serpent". Satan's false gospel is founded upon man's works (religion).

When Moses lifted up the serpent on the pole, it provided atonement to those who looked upon it. But it was only temporary. The reason a serpent was used on the pole was because the "works of the Law" is the crooked way of Satan. It is not the way of righteousness.

You have been saying that if we willfully sin after we are saved that we will lose our salvation. "Willfully sinning" is referring to the sin of mixing our own works in with the works of Christ - that is the sin that leads to death.

Peter teaches about falling away from the "way of righteousness" below:

2Pet 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment (repentance from dead works) delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The "way of righteousness" is the straightway of faith in Christ. When Peter mentions being entangled again in the pollutions of the world, Peter is referring to religion which is based on the works of man. Peter even calls religion "vomit" and "mire".

Paul teaches this same truth in the fifth chapter of Galatians:

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

The "yoke of bondage" is trying to follow the Law so as to make yourself acceptable to God.

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Paul says that when a person tries to follow the Law even on just one point, it will make that person a debtor to follow the whole Law. The end result is that they will be "fallen from grace". This is the "willful sin" and the only sin that leads to death.

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Under the New Covenant, faith is all that is necessary to make the pathway straight for Christ to come to a person and do His spiritual work of conversion within them. And Christ gives the person the faith they need, too. Our salvation is completely in the hands of Christ. We contribute nothing towards it.

Also, no one will remain lost forever as you believe because Christ is solely responsible for doing all the necessary work of saving mankind AND HE CANNOT FAIL.

You said:
I teach the uncut word of God according to the Prophets (Old Testament) and the Apostles (New Testament). We observe the Lord’s Sabbath Day, the Lord’s Feast Days (as outlined in Leviticus 23rd chapter), and the Lord’s Dietary Law (as outlined in Leviticus 11th chapter). I teach and observe the Royal Law, which is the Ten Commandments.

Nowhere in the writings of the NT does it ever instruct believers to observe the Sabbath Day, Feast Days or dietary laws. Those physical laws were given to foreshadow their spiritual fulfillment which occurs when a believer is converted. The physical observance of those laws is null and void under the New Covenant. You are not understanding this truth because you are not understanding the differences between the Old and New Covenants.

You said:
I also believe in the resurrection and that Jesus is the King of Israel who will rule over the House of Jacob forever. We believe Jesus is the God of all people and his house “shall be a house of prayer for all people”. (Isaiah 56:7)

Jesus will not rule over the house of Jacob forever (should be translated as "for the ages"). After the last enemy of death is defeated (last person is saved), Christ's reign will come to an end and He will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to His Father. At that time, God will be "all in all" because all mankind (all who died in Adam) will be saved and in the Kingdom of Heaven.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Joe

So you really can't break down Hebrews 10th Chapter. That's all I ask you to do, so we stay one point.

 

[bro.tan]

Is sin taken care of or not? Who was the law given to? The Gentiles had no law other than overthemselves.

In the beginning the law was given to Israel, but let's see what Paul say in Ephesians 2: 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

So is Paul telling the Gentiles how important the old testament is, and how they have the same laws as Israel do. In the scriptures it's written in Isaiah 8: 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Paul says in Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. You wouldn’t know what sin was if there was no law.

 

[bro.tan]

I think death means suffering, at least in some cases:

[17] "Yet your people say, `The way of the Lord is not just'; when it is their own way that is not just.
[18] When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it.
[19] And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it.
[20] Yet you say, `The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways." Ezekiel 33:17-20 RSV

Let's look at some suffering in death, in the lake of fire. Let's go into Isaiah 66; 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Let's take a look at the first two people in the lake of fire. Let's go into Revelation 19: 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[MatthewG]

In the beginning the law was given to Israel, but let's see what Paul say in Ephesians 2: 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

So is Paul telling the Gentiles how important the old testament is, and how they have the same laws as Israel do. In the scriptures it's written in Isaiah 8: 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

I don’t believe what you’re saying is true.

It’s God who makes a person holy anyway, and never themselves. Good luck with all that, Mr Tan. All the best!

Paul says in Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. You wouldn’t know what sin was if there was no law.

It’s God through people in which he makes them holy by the spirit it’s by the affects of the heart and the Law was for Israel only, who were disobedient rule breakers. You can learn from it. It won’t make you anymore holy.

God can write in the hearts and minds of people who seek after him, significantly over throwing the Law of Moses because of Christ which is the only Law there is, the Law of Christ : which is to Love God and love others.

Jesus Christ is the end of the Law (of
Moses) for righteousness through him in faith.

You didn’t answer my question either.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Sorry Joe, that's not Bible that's Roman Christianity thinking and teaching. Paul concerning the unchangeable Royal Law of God. (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. (See exodus 20: 1-17)

So if you say that you know God, but you don’t keep his commandments, lets see what the Lord had specially written for you.

(1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Dear bro.tan,
Christ keeps the law through me. The Sabbath Day is kept by entering Christ's rest. The keeping of the physical Sabbath Day is void for converted believers because Christ is doing the work of their salvation. They are at rest and because they are, they keep the Sabbath Day 24/7.

You are not applying this concept: first comes the natural, then comes the spiritual.

The Old Covenant is based on the natural but the New Covenant is based on the spiritual.

Why won't you accept this truth?

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

So you really can't break down Hebrews 10th Chapter. That's all I ask you to do, so we stay one point.

Dear bro.tan,
I have read it and that is enough. If you can't except any of the other scriptures I have posted here, you won't accept Hebrews chapter 10 either. You are fitting everything into your box of works and would do the same with chapter 10, too.

I am trying to help others members on other threads right now, so I need to end my discussion with you since it is not bearing any fruit.

Joe

 

[bro.tan]

Dear bro.tan,
I have read it and that is enough. If you can't except any of the other scriptures I have posted here, you won't accept Hebrews chapter 10 either. You are fitting everything into your box of works and would do the same with chapter 10, too.

I am trying to help others members on other threads right now, so I need to end my discussion with you since it is not bearing any fruit.

Joe

We still must obey all of God's laws and statues of conduct, from the ten commandments to the least commandment. We cannot choose to obey one without obeying the others. For instance, if it's still good to pay tithes (as many preach), then it is still good to obey God's dietary law (not eating pork, catfish, etc...Leviticus 11:1-47). Similarly, you cannot purposely trip a blind person (Leviticus 19:14) and claim to love your neighbor as yourself. Neither can you break God's Sabbath days (Leviticus 19:30) and claim to love God with all your heart, soul and mind.

Many fight to uphold man's traditional holidays (Sunday the 1st day as the Sabbath, Christmas, Easter and Halloween), but few are obeying God's Holy Days (Saturday the 7th day Sabbath, the Passover, Pentecost, etc...Leviticus 23:1-44). All of God's laws are still good and must be obeyed if we want eternal life. We might not be able to observe everything perfectly, but can fight a good fight. If we do this our prize awaits us at the end. "...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17).

 

[bro.tan]

Dear bro.tan,
Christ keeps the law through me. The Sabbath Day is kept by entering Christ's rest. The keeping of the physical Sabbath Day is void for converted believers because Christ is doing the work of their salvation. They are at rest and because they are, they keep the Sabbath Day 24/7.

You are not applying this concept: first comes the natural, then comes the spiritual.

The Old Covenant is based on the natural but the New Covenant is based on the spiritual.

Why won't you accept this truth?

Joe

Paul said in (1 Cor. 9:24-27) (v.24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (v.25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible. Paul says that when you run in a race every body is running for a prize. But this prize that he is referring to is eternal life, that’s what he means by an incorruptible, he’s talking about an incorruptible body, a heavenly body. (v.26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly, so fight, not as one that beateth the air: (v.27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. You see Paul knew exactly what was going on that why he says he has to bring his body under subjection. Under subjection to what? To God’s Law, Paul knew that if he didn’t continue to keep Gods law that even after he had preached to many that he himself could still become a castaway. This doesn’t sound like Paul thinks that he has guarantee salvation.

 

[bro.tan]

For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 66:15-17) The Lord says' by the mouth of Isaiah that those that eat swine's flesh (pork) shall be consumed.

Just in case we have forgotten who this Lord is, let us go to II Thessalonians chapter one, and start at the sixth verse and we will see that it is Jesus that Isaiah is referring to and not the Father.

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (II Thessalonians 1:6-9)

Note what the eighth verse states, "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God." Paul was quoting Isaiah the 66th chapter and the 15th verse, where it states, "For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." These individuals that receive the Lord's vengeance know Him not and obey not the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. The dietary law is part of the commandments. (He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.) (I John 2:4.)

We must understand brothers and sisters there is no degree of sin. If we break one of the laws, we break them all, and the sentence for transgressing the Lord's laws is death. What we must do is keep ourselves from willful sin.